Date   

Re: Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

Robert Mendoza
 

Hi, Gene!


Sorry to interfere the discussion. But, curious how to create portable copy of ESR of Firefox. The reason why I am asking this is because is that it is very convenient when moving or shifting to other computer specially if I go out and use it anytime. I was looking at the setup preferences but could not even look an option to create portable copy to my flash drive. Did I miss something or needs to do in order to make this done effectively with ease. Thanks.

On 11/22/2017 7:45 AM, Gene wrote:

You can try uninstalling the program and reinstalling it.  or you can get the portable ESR version and use that.  it does everything the installed version does, you can even set it as the default, and you won't have to worry about any remnants from the installed program causing problems. 
 
I use firefox Portable because I can just copy the entire program somewhere else as a backup.  then if something becomes corrupted, I can just delete the copy I'm using and copy the backup to the same location I was running the program from.  And I can copy the program to any machine I wish.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 5:08 PM
Subject: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

Hello everyone. Really sorry about this as it's not strictly speaking an nVDA question, but I know Firefox has been a hot topic round these parts for quite some time, so it doesn't seem entirely inappropriate. As I said in a previous message, I was using FF 57 and it was working -- ok. But as other users pointed out, it was kind of slow and weird. And as much as I'm growing to really like nVDA, it did annoy me that I could not use it with JAWS at all. So, I went and got Firefox ESR, as many on this list have also done, and installed it. But now I have a weird issue, and it's one I seem to remember coming up against with firefox before, but I can't recall for the life of me what I had to do to correct it.

Basically, links will not activate as they normally do. I go to a site with ctrl-l, and can maybe click on one link as I normally would, with the enter key. Goodreads.com is an example of a site I visit frequently which now does this. I can search for a book title and get a list of results, but then clicking on that item appears to do absolutely nothing. The mobile facebook site is doing the same thing, as have other sites, so I know it isn't site-specific, but something on my end. The links *will* activate if I select "open in new tab" from the context menu, but I don't want to have to do this every time, obviously. My only thought is that something got changed when I installed ESR over 57, a setting or something. This certainly wasn't happening before yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.







Re: Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

Gene
 

I don't thik uninstalling the browser removes book marks.  it probably just uninstalls the program itself.  You can probably easily check this with a Google search for something like Does uninstalling Firefox remove book marks and since I'm not sure, I wouldn't uninstall the program until you know or have backed them up, as I shall discuss below. 
 
You can back up bookmarks in firefox and then restore them in exactly the same organization as they were if you ever lose them for some reason.  They should be backed up as anything you don't want to lose should be.  I can describe how to do it if you want.  You may want to do so before uninstalling firefox.  Or, if you get the portable version, you can back them up and then restore them in the portable version.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

Good advice. I should probably have installed the ESR fresh. I just wanted to keep my bookmarks and wasn’t sure off-hand where firefox stored them.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 21, 2017 6:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

 

You can try uninstalling the program and reinstalling it.  or you can get the portable ESR version and use that.  it does everything the installed version does, you can even set it as the default, and you won't have to worry about any remnants from the installed program causing problems. 

 

I use firefox Portable because I can just copy the entire program somewhere else as a backup.  then if something becomes corrupted, I can just delete the copy I'm using and copy the backup to the same location I was running the program from.  And I can copy the program to any machine I wish.

 

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: JM Casey

Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 5:08 PM

Subject: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

 

Hello everyone. Really sorry about this as it's not strictly speaking an nVDA question, but I know Firefox has been a hot topic round these parts for quite some time, so it doesn't seem entirely inappropriate. As I said in a previous message, I was using FF 57 and it was working -- ok. But as other users pointed out, it was kind of slow and weird. And as much as I'm growing to really like nVDA, it did annoy me that I could not use it with JAWS at all. So, I went and got Firefox ESR, as many on this list have also done, and installed it. But now I have a weird issue, and it's one I seem to remember coming up against with firefox before, but I can't recall for the life of me what I had to do to correct it.

Basically, links will not activate as they normally do. I go to a site with ctrl-l, and can maybe click on one link as I normally would, with the enter key. Goodreads.com is an example of a site I visit frequently which now does this. I can search for a book title and get a list of results, but then clicking on that item appears to do absolutely nothing. The mobile facebook site is doing the same thing, as have other sites, so I know it isn't site-specific, but something on my end. The links *will* activate if I select "open in new tab" from the context menu, but I don't want to have to do this every time, obviously. My only thought is that something got changed when I installed ESR over 57, a setting or something. This certainly wasn't happening before yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.






Re: A few comments on recent threads

Mary Otten <motten53@...>
 

Hi Brian,
If all the new user has is E speak, I suspect that many of those new users will be finding a way to get another voice immediately. I certainly did that. I change voices as soon as NVDA was installed, because I don’t need to listen to something that takes me back 40 years to the beginnings of blind computer use. Thanks, been there done that. And using that voice when you’re doing any kind of a tutorial is in my view a huge mistake, since it is really not understandable for a lot of people. I understand why the folks at in the excess use it. It does have a lot of languages, although I did try the Russian one, just for fun, because I understand Russian rather well. It was awful. I guess a native speaker could deal with it. Anyway, for all you tutorial writers out there, please use something that sounds human or at least is as good as eloquence, which I also don’t like but is much more understandable than E speak.
Mary

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

I disagree. When I learned how to use a computer almost 17 years ago I wanted to 2 days after words download all voices for jaws. I even installed updates by myself and wanted to update all of my firmware. I was actually quite board at the pace my trainer was forced to go as he needed to prove I could do this that and the other. He could not move on to advanced topics even though I practically memorized the tutorials and manuals for jaws and my embosser and the what ever else I had gotten that year. I do slow down my voices but I do go at a faster pace as someone can always rewind or pause but I don't go so fast that it's overwhelming.. I also try and be bubbly in all of mine as that also helps.

Take care all and have a wonderful Tuesday.

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

I am basically just saying that the new user will not be downloading voices, end of story, not that one should not use them. For example you could have a tutorial explaining how to get a certain voice.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via `.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


To avoid any possible confusion, this is Gene from the United States, not Gene from New Zealand, the Gene who hosts a tutorial page. I'm not that tutorial page hosting Gene nor have I created more than a few tutorials related to NVDA.

Tutorials should not limit voices to only what is available in Windows or, to the default NVDA voice. Many voices not universally available are popular and may be as or more understandable than what is universally available. You are ruling out the Windows 10 Microsoft voices, you are ruling out the english version of Eloquence, which is very understandable, I can't comment on other languages. There are lots of other voices being widely used and a new user may find some or many of the more pleasant to listen to and easier to understand than what is universally available. And none of the Microsoft voices, as far as I know, are universally available since different versions of Windows use different default voices. Tutorials are not just for new computer users. They are also for experienced computer users who have used speech for a long time. the new user, in my opinion, doesn't need speech slowed below or not much below the standard speaking rate and for experienced users, slow speech is a real burden to listen to for a lot of users. And a good tutorial presenter repeats a lot of what the speech says just to make sure it is understood, regardless of the person's familiarity or lack of familiarity with synthesized speech. When I do recorded tutorials, I repeat what is important, such as all or most of the items I tab through in a dialog or move through in a menu. I have the speech say something like save as, then I repeat save as. That allows me to use a speech rate that is not torture for experienced listeners to listen to because I repeat everything important so those who are not experienced synthesized speech listeners will have no trouble knowing what is being said.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads



1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to date, who
is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is to use
a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out, it takes
time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can hear as fast as
you do. Also the voice should be something understandable and something
available in all flavours of windows with no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about tutorials
in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will need to be
significantly different given the complexity of none Latin based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able to
grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this group. The
best course I think is to simply point people at explanations and files to
maybe try to make them go away wherever you can for those like me who are
obviously thick in this area! Certainly lets not argue about them ad
infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives, at
least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for this too?)
and report your findings there.Although some developers do watch here, they
can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of everyday queries. If
you cannot actually figure out the issues reporting section of Github, and
it can be a bit daunting if you do not use online forms a lot, then
subscribe to one of the lists such as the developers one. These seem to be
all listed with their subscription details on the nv access web site. Then
if you are baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list,
ask somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will not be
as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to use
nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up portable
version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a known
good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that can
trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours. Thos on
the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release but still
contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in messages to the
various lists which are more or less full versions complete with error
sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any reply
to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but most often
this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might be slightly
sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously badly meant, as
flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in email
delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a day, meaning
one has to reply again to take account of new info. This is not uncommon so
don't jump on people unless its clear they are responding to each and every
message in a thread all the time. always read back a bit in the list before
posting a question, as it could well be that its been asked before.this is
evident in the many threads on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or indeed
not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.









Re: Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

JM Casey <crystallogic@...>
 

Good advice. I should probably have installed the ESR fresh. I just wanted to keep my bookmarks and wasn’t sure off-hand where firefox stored them.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 21, 2017 6:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

 

You can try uninstalling the program and reinstalling it.  or you can get the portable ESR version and use that.  it does everything the installed version does, you can even set it as the default, and you won't have to worry about any remnants from the installed program causing problems. 

 

I use firefox Portable because I can just copy the entire program somewhere else as a backup.  then if something becomes corrupted, I can just delete the copy I'm using and copy the backup to the same location I was running the program from.  And I can copy the program to any machine I wish.

 

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: JM Casey

Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 5:08 PM

Subject: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

 

Hello everyone. Really sorry about this as it's not strictly speaking an nVDA question, but I know Firefox has been a hot topic round these parts for quite some time, so it doesn't seem entirely inappropriate. As I said in a previous message, I was using FF 57 and it was working -- ok. But as other users pointed out, it was kind of slow and weird. And as much as I'm growing to really like nVDA, it did annoy me that I could not use it with JAWS at all. So, I went and got Firefox ESR, as many on this list have also done, and installed it. But now I have a weird issue, and it's one I seem to remember coming up against with firefox before, but I can't recall for the life of me what I had to do to correct it.

Basically, links will not activate as they normally do. I go to a site with ctrl-l, and can maybe click on one link as I normally would, with the enter key. Goodreads.com is an example of a site I visit frequently which now does this. I can search for a book title and get a list of results, but then clicking on that item appears to do absolutely nothing. The mobile facebook site is doing the same thing, as have other sites, so I know it isn't site-specific, but something on my end. The links *will* activate if I select "open in new tab" from the context menu, but I don't want to have to do this every time, obviously. My only thought is that something got changed when I installed ESR over 57, a setting or something. This certainly wasn't happening before yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.






Re: Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

Gene
 

You can try uninstalling the program and reinstalling it.  or you can get the portable ESR version and use that.  it does everything the installed version does, you can even set it as the default, and you won't have to worry about any remnants from the installed program causing problems. 
 
I use firefox Portable because I can just copy the entire program somewhere else as a backup.  then if something becomes corrupted, I can just delete the copy I'm using and copy the backup to the same location I was running the program from.  And I can copy the program to any machine I wish.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 5:08 PM
Subject: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

Hello everyone. Really sorry about this as it's not strictly speaking an nVDA question, but I know Firefox has been a hot topic round these parts for quite some time, so it doesn't seem entirely inappropriate. As I said in a previous message, I was using FF 57 and it was working -- ok. But as other users pointed out, it was kind of slow and weird. And as much as I'm growing to really like nVDA, it did annoy me that I could not use it with JAWS at all. So, I went and got Firefox ESR, as many on this list have also done, and installed it. But now I have a weird issue, and it's one I seem to remember coming up against with firefox before, but I can't recall for the life of me what I had to do to correct it.

Basically, links will not activate as they normally do. I go to a site with ctrl-l, and can maybe click on one link as I normally would, with the enter key. Goodreads.com is an example of a site I visit frequently which now does this. I can search for a book title and get a list of results, but then clicking on that item appears to do absolutely nothing. The mobile facebook site is doing the same thing, as have other sites, so I know it isn't site-specific, but something on my end. The links *will* activate if I select "open in new tab" from the context menu, but I don't want to have to do this every time, obviously. My only thought is that something got changed when I installed ESR over 57, a setting or something. This certainly wasn't happening before yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.







Re: nvda and alternative email client and chrome and bankingwebsite

David Griffith
 

I increasingly find I am using Windows Mail  with NVDA for the vast bulk of my email usage.

I have not installed the Windows 10 essentials addon as I found I was having problems with this and Mail seems to work even faster without  it.

There are a few oddities bukt they are workd around and I do the work arounds now without conscious thought but with muscle memory.

I find it is easily the fasterst and most efficient email system with NVDA. Certainly is is vastly snappier and efficient compared to my Outlook 2010 which although it undeniably has more features but is far more sluggish.

I do not use rules and have not investigated whether these are  possible with Windows Mail. I suspect not.

Windows Mail appears to be able to pull in at least some of your Outlook contacts automatically.

Although there is no formal spell checking that I know of there is by default in Mail automatic typing spelling  correction.

Some of the oddities.

Firstly if you reply to an email NVDA will not  immediately focus in the edit field ready for typing. Alt tabbing away and alt tabbing back will restore focus in the edit field ready for you to start typing.

Secondly Mail will occasionally shift focus from the message list to the navigation Bar with NVDA. Shift tab every time you hear Navigation and you will be placed straight back in the message list.

Thirdly you will occasionallly lose focus from the message list and hear the message loading as new messatges are pulled down. Again shift tabbing once will return you straight back to the message list.

In practice this lis less of a hassle than it sounds – I do it without thinking now.

If you get emails coming in whilst you are reviewing your message list your focus on a particular email in the list may slip and when you pres enter you may open the wrong email.  – mormally one just below the one you intended. Pressing escape to go back to the message list and re-selecting the desired email normally fixes this.

However I often do not   bother to open emails.

The Message llist works with a preview feature which I really like as I can often delete short  list emails without having to open them.

Placing attachments in a Windows Mail email is really easy. Go to file explorer, copy the file or files want to attach, open a new email and then press control V to paste in the files as attachments.

Virtually all the traditional Outlook  keyboard shortcuts work.

So control Y to bring up the folder list.

Control enter to send an email.

Control N for new email.

Control R for reply etc etc.

Pressing delete key in message list will delete an email – doing the same in the reading pane will also delete the message.

Occasionally windows Mail will not respond at all with NVDA. Closing the program and restarting it normally fixes this immediately. As the program is so fast at loading this does not concern me overmuch.

Finally the threading feature is automatic, not customisable as far as I am aware,  and takes a little  getting used to. Threads automatically open when you cursor down the message list. To collapse  any thread you simply focus on any message in the thread and press left arrow twice. When you hear collapsed you can also then press the delete key to delete the whole thread.

So in summary if you want a highly customisable  email program with lost of features mail is probably not for you.

If you want fast quick simple review of emails  I personally no of no combination on any platform which works as well as NVDA and Mail.

David Griffith

My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts

 

From: Josh Kennedy
Sent: 21 November 2017 15:55
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] nvda and alternative email client and chrome and bankingwebsite

 

hi

 

I have two problems with nvda 2017.4RC1. first, it seems like mozilla

thunderbird beta2 is unstable and is crashing. I went back to

thunderbird 52.4 i even uninstalled and reinstalled thunderbird and it

still crashes and is sluggish when writing emails and sometimes now when

reading emails. so I have a question. is the mail app in windows10

accessible? is it fast and responsive? if so I will get rid of

thunderbird and use the windows10 mail app or another alternative you

recommend. yes I have the app essentials addon installed. and my win10

home is all up to date. my next question is in google chrome on the

santander bank login website just google search santander bank login.

the login is a clickable elemtn. it brings up a dialog box that seems to

work in firefox but i can't seem to get to this dialog box in chrome.

can someone check that out with the latest chrome?

 

 

thanks

 

 

Josh

 

 

 

 

 


Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

JM Casey <crystallogic@...>
 

Hello everyone. Really sorry about this as it's not strictly speaking an nVDA question, but I know Firefox has been a hot topic round these parts for quite some time, so it doesn't seem entirely inappropriate. As I said in a previous message, I was using FF 57 and it was working -- ok. But as other users pointed out, it was kind of slow and weird. And as much as I'm growing to really like nVDA, it did annoy me that I could not use it with JAWS at all. So, I went and got Firefox ESR, as many on this list have also done, and installed it. But now I have a weird issue, and it's one I seem to remember coming up against with firefox before, but I can't recall for the life of me what I had to do to correct it.

Basically, links will not activate as they normally do. I go to a site with ctrl-l, and can maybe click on one link as I normally would, with the enter key. Goodreads.com is an example of a site I visit frequently which now does this. I can search for a book title and get a list of results, but then clicking on that item appears to do absolutely nothing. The mobile facebook site is doing the same thing, as have other sites, so I know it isn't site-specific, but something on my end. The links *will* activate if I select "open in new tab" from the context menu, but I don't want to have to do this every time, obviously. My only thought is that something got changed when I installed ESR over 57, a setting or something. This certainly wasn't happening before yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.


Re: Kudos to the Microsoft disability desk

 

Actually its not all the tech's fault over the last little while I have been having an issue between my dad refered here as the user and me the admin of the network with the winmail.dat issue.

I have always handled this issue.

Suddenly ms rings me as I expected quoting the case number.

Fine, but suddenly the user is there he wants to make sure its microsoft and not a spammer.

Can I please handle this.

My mistake was getting up.

So he hogs the call to the tech and handles the issue instead of asking me for things he handles it all.

He wants my case number which I just handed him.

He takes control of the issue which while I know not much more than him he knows almost nothing about exactly what is going on he can't even follow what is going on.

Suddenly its over, the call is over.

I come back, and check right away I see logging is on and a few other things.

After completing a office repair and a few other things searching on the net and hoping its all gone I come back in and well the issue is still there.

While this was a small problem I now have no idea on the problem's status and the user is no help in that reguard.

I have had worse issues than that, once my brother wanted to convert a file and well, instead of looking for me he decides to randomly do it.

After a reformat to get rid of all the spyware the issue is still not resolved.

Eventually he gives me the file and I do it and give the right one back.

Further a field in at least 3 sepperate occasions 2 of my remote users have decided to take issues complex enough on their own for me to solve and tried to do it themselves.

One of them took it on himself to copy his user account straight into another folder without following the correct procedure.

This same user then tried to get a skype recording program that was free.

I had to remove and recreate his user account and then after a lot of cleaning and reformatting was able to finally get down to the problems and fix them which were quite simple.

In another instance, the same guy had a problem, something on his system or online said his system was not secure.

He had had a lot of icons that were popping up which he assumed were viruses.

I spent most of the night clearing spyware off the system and recreating the account.

The icons were in fact his various programs with updates and other things wanting his attention.

I have also had the case where people have got a virus and instead of getting the right amount of tools to clear it, take a nuke, a sledge hammer and a bulldoser to do it all for them.

The virus is gone.

Most of the system is gone, guess who has to remove all the software, install a single tool and clear off the junk taking off the hard drive, defrag the drive, update the os and make it work.

Guess who has the job of staying up all night fixing things, not to mention everything needs code authorisation again, and after that windows was alegal, I had to ring ms to get key resets to.

So yeah as a tech myself I really do wish the users don't but in when I am trying to handle issues they pass on to us.

On 22/11/2017 10:54 a.m., Tony Ballou wrote:
Hi Mary,


Lol!  Absolutely! And as a tech who calls the answer desk a lot when he
doesn't understand some of the stuff that the sighted world techs do to
systems in the name of troubleshooting, there best job is indeed taking
the box to the car.


Tony


On 11/18/2017 4:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
A week or so ago, there were a lot of messages on a topic I started regarding my new windows 10 PC and it’s inability to sometimes shut down completely or be unresponsive after restarts, where settings wouldn’t open etc. Also there was this thing where nVDA was talking even after it had not been loaded when the machine was trying and failing to shut down. I had the machine back in the shop again, and the unskilled workers who work there, at least I hope that’s what they are rather than competent technicians, said there was nothing wrong with it. So we brought it home again, and it exhibited the same unfortunate behaviors. Before giving up completely and just turning the machine back in before my 15 day return with no questions asked Time limit Ran out, I called the Microsoft disability helpdesk. The first guy I talked to was on the phone and remoted in to my computer trying to do different things for well over an hour. He finally decided that the only solution was a reinstallation/repair of windows. That necessitated a long download. And here I thought my Internet connection was faster than it apparently is. Anyway, following long download, I called back, spoke to another technician, who initiated the installation and repair process, which went fine. The machine is now working as it should. Amazing what real technicians who know what they’re doing and do. Moral: never pay the so-called technicians in a big box store to do anything but carry your box to your car.

Sent from my iPhone



Re: nvda 2017.4rc1 and thunderbird version 52.4.0 (32-bit)

Kevin Cussick
 

Hi, did the same but it did not read the save bit. anyway fixed as did a reinstall and all is well now thanks.

On 20/11/2017 23:37, Jacob Kruger wrote:
I use the message menu, attachments sub-menu to save/open attachments easily enough, working with thunderbird 52.4  on my windows 10 64 bit fall creators machine, and working with either NVDA 2017.3, or latest RC of 2017.4?
Stay well
Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."
On 2017/11/20 23:56, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:
anyone having problems with tb 5240 and attachments I can't get to the save button only using Narrator could I do this.

On 19/11/2017 23:58, Robert Mendoza wrote:
Hi, Shaun! there is a beta version you may try it. the response for the nvda 2017.4 RC1 works fine and seemingly fast.

On 11/20/2017 3:48 AM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
What I want to know is when thunderbird will actually get a release, there hasn't been one since 52 and while I don't mind as such as I use no addons at all, I would really like to see some improvements eventually.

win7 works but still I don't always watch it.




On 20/11/2017 7:47 a.m., Lino Morales wrote:
Try T Bird 57 beta. Its fast.

On 11/18/2017 5:00 PM, Josh Kennedy wrote:

also in windows10 home 64bit latest updated windows10 the very latest without being on the insider build. NVDA is sluggish when composing emails in thunderbird. Its very sluggish. When I hit backspace or any of the arrow keys when composing or writing emails NVDA takes one whole entire second to give me speech feedback on where the cursor is at. But on the web in google chrome and firefox and in microsoft wordpad, notepad and so on NVDA is fast and snappy when arrowing around. Has anyone noticed this and can this cursor lag with NVDA please be fixed?


Josh


--
sent with mozilla thunderbird







Re: Kudos to the Microsoft disability desk

Tony Ballou
 

Hi Mary,


Lol!  Absolutely! And as a tech who calls the answer desk a lot when he
doesn't understand some of the stuff that the sighted world techs do to
systems in the name of troubleshooting, there best job is indeed taking
the box to the car.


Tony

On 11/18/2017 4:12 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
A week or so ago, there were a lot of messages on a topic I started regarding my new windows 10 PC and it’s inability to sometimes shut down completely or be unresponsive after restarts, where settings wouldn’t open etc. Also there was this thing where nVDA was talking even after it had not been loaded when the machine was trying and failing to shut down. I had the machine back in the shop again, and the unskilled workers who work there, at least I hope that’s what they are rather than competent technicians, said there was nothing wrong with it. So we brought it home again, and it exhibited the same unfortunate behaviors. Before giving up completely and just turning the machine back in before my 15 day return with no questions asked Time limit Ran out, I called the Microsoft disability helpdesk. The first guy I talked to was on the phone and remoted in to my computer trying to do different things for well over an hour. He finally decided that the only solution was a reinstallation/repair of windows. That necessitated a long download. And here I thought my Internet connection was faster than it apparently is. Anyway, following long download, I called back, spoke to another technician, who initiated the installation and repair process, which went fine. The machine is now working as it should. Amazing what real technicians who know what they’re doing and do. Moral: never pay the so-called technicians in a big box store to do anything but carry your box to your car.

Sent from my iPhone


Re: FW: [win10] nvda, and tutorials

Tony Ballou
 

Hi,


Just my take but I think this is a great idea to have that as well as
links to the accessibility central website is there is a myriad of
tutorials and information about NVDA there. Think of it as a one-stop shop.


Tony

On 11/20/2017 8:07 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Quentin,
Any thoughts on this?
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: win10@win10.groups.io [mailto:win10@win10.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 5:05 PM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Subject: [win10] nvda, and tutorials

Hi.

It seems to me with all the drama going on on here that a few things need to happen.

Firstly if there isn't a tutorials page on the nvda wiki maybe it needs to be visible, maybe as part of the support page or download page or even main pages you should have links to the user guide, audio demos of features, audio and text tutorials maybe some sort of faq to.

It would really cut down on all the drama on here if someone wants to fine a tutorial that we can give a centralised location where all links to tutorials on and off site are placed.

Its only a suggestion, I am unsure how to make it a formal proposal but it would be a good way to make most of this stuff go away and would be generally good.

If this stuff exists deep down somewhere maybe it could be brought together somewhere and if someone has a lot of it somewhere else then it should be linked in this central location to.








Urgent help needed NVDA remote me

Lino Morales <linomorales001@...>
 

Hi. I accidently bumped my mouse and I have no idea what language iTunes is set to. I uninstalled everything and reinstalled everything and its in the same language even though I chose English US. Email me at:

lino.jr@...

Thanks.


Re: A few comments on recent threads

 

To be honest for once I am probably on the side of fs which isn't usual.

Firstly if you use windows media player native formats and don't use a real high quality format the digital noise stream is encoded in the file to, and you hear it.

A lot of radio stations that were in windows media and even low quality real media had this issue, always sounded like an old radio in  a shed with all the digital chatter.

The other thing is that a lot of tutorials especially the first manuals that came online especially if they were the same, for ages and ages were simply transposed from tapes.

Now I know now you can get reasonable recording restoration software but tapes to get your data off especially in those days even if they were good quality tapes would get a lot of hiss and machine noise.

You can fix this some what, but if you try to restore a record and yes I hav tried to cleanup a record with goldwave and really made it where I really made it sound normal all I got was the same digital signal clutter unless in stereo then it wasn't so bad.

Another thing, a lot of tapes were mono, and a lot of the tutorials these days are stereo.

And while a mono sound while a bit crappy in itself is just that, if you don't care the signal never was a real issue.

Make that stereo or even think of converting then you have a problem.

While you can probably split a digital mono signal to stereo, if that was a mono device like a tape to digital, with all the stuff I mentioned about tapes previously, well tapes are just not ideal to record off of unless they are stereo tapes or you just don't care.

I did recordings of tapes not from tape to computer, but actually played the tapes and taped to a digital device via a microphone.

Now I realise that this is or can be a problem if the environment aint right but its probably better if you can do it, Since you are dealing with a digital file hearing the audio from a tape.

And the environment sadly but oh well.

You can't exactly use that for production as such but you could edit a file and do that.

But I was dealing with stereo tape recordings on good tapes and dictaphones.

Its actually worse when you go digital to tape, fine for music but still.

On 22/11/2017 9:34 a.m., JM Casey wrote:
Hi.

Not checked out too many tutorials but I thought I could weigh in.

Yes, wordpad will handle rtfs just fine. But I have to ask: isn't html all-round the best format for these sorts of things? You can't put links in a text file, and html is pretty much cross-platform, so as long as someone has some sort of browser or viewer, they should not only be able to read the file, but effectively use a table of contents as well.

I don't have much of an opinion on audio. I know a lot of people like them but personally I would much rather just read something. But yes, I'd think a well-recorded file, converted to mp3, would be best for most people. You could keep the bit-rate down pretty low so long as the actual recording was of a decent quality (minimum ambient noise, etc). Even the rather expensive training materials from Freedom Scientific, when I reviewed them for my old work, were full of artifacts and crap that made them irritating to listen to. I know some people could do better, but, again, I highly prefer a simple html document containing text.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: November 21, 2017 3:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Well for the central location all tutorials unless spacifically meant for outside viewing and for easy access should be in html, with a text download in txt extention.

Yes people would have to be added to update their own tutorials I am not sure how that would work.

As for audios, there would have to be some rules for them.

Language, and voice, the hardware, etc.

I can see audio accompanying a standard tutorial but I wouldn't want an audio tutorial on its own.

There would have to be rules on what formats were used.

Bunches of tutorials could be zipped I could see links to 7zip, even adobe for those viewing pdfs.

Over that though pdfs would have to be straight text and not scanned text if allowed.

Here is the cludge, not everyone is going to have or want an office program to view a tutorial, I think wordpad can handle rtf but don't quote me on this.

So your formats sould be txt and probably html with maybe audio.

In terms of audio, most players can play mp3s.

Not everyone will be able to play ogg and or flack files.

One thing that will have to be stopped immediately is for those that do tutorials posting them in wav files or if they do someone is going to have to convert those to mp3 files befor posting them.

Also unless high quality is needed 128-192 kbps files are probably ok, we don't want people to use lots of their internet especially since we don't know how stable x person's net could be especially outside standard developed countries.

I am not sure about language, there is no way everyone could post in every language and or that sort of thing either.

English would have to be the commen language used I am not sure how translations of tutorials would be handled I could see you selecting a language and maybe the tutorials could be translated by those that knew a language but its tedius if there was a lot of them.

That may be doable if slow.

But what we absolutely don't want is a tutorial written in another language first posted without an english translation, and it would be better if tutorials were in english first otherwise that could become a problem.

Then again if the person doing this is not good in english such as it would have to be edited to make sence if they feel that they are comfortable writing in their own language and as long as someone can translate into english and is good at both then thats probably ok.

When I wrote the proposal yesterday on the back of the last drama session I never fully thought about what I was fully meaning till I read this message, the poster is right.

Now once set up I do think the resource if kept updated will be a really good idea but it really needs to be set up properly.

Sadly google translate is not always the best to translate anything into english unless that is all you want is a general meaning.




On 21/11/2017 11:04 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to
date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is
to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out,
it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can
hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something
understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with
no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about
tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will
need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin
based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able
to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this
group. The best course I think is to simply point people at
explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you
can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly
lets not argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives,
at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for
this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do
watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of
everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues
reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do
not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as
the developers one. These seem to be all listed with their
subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are
baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask
somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will
not be as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to
use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up
portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard
shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a
known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that
can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours.
Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release
but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in
messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions
complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any
reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but
most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might
be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously
badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in
email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a
day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This
is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are
responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always
read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could
well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads
on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or
indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



.





Re: firefox question

Rhonda Selby <rx.music7@...>
 

This is just fyi. Other screen readers also read the links the same way, as “download” while you down arrow through them. I had to observe the order of the labels for each listed above to figure out which identifier belonged to which download.

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 9:02 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] firefox question

 

The second link I sent yesterday should have been for the 32 bit version.  I found out what the problem is.  The links are just read as download when you down arrow through them.  If you tab through them, you hear an announcement of the purpose of each link.  The first link is for the 64 bit version.  The second is for the 32 bit version.  The other download links are for other operating systems such as the MAC and Linux (spelling.)  At times I see this in NVDA, where arrowing produces less information from links than tabbing.  I haven't checked other screen-readers to see if they do the same thing.  This may be a problem that should be looked into.  I'll check the page with a new version of NVDA to see if the same problem occurs.  I looked at the page with a very old version.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 3:30 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] firefox question

 

You can obviously force it to download what you like but the 64 in the link
seemed a bit of a giveaway, and he already stated he had a 64 bit system and
was pointed to  the 32 bi5t one for reliability.
 It has been my experience that this is the case at least for us blind folk.
I had all manner of issues with the 64 bit one.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher-Mark Gilland" <clgilland07@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] firefox question


No, not if you're on a 32 bit system. It should then download the X86
version instead.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Darren Tomblin
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 6:35 PM
  Subject: [nvda] firefox question


  hi, I have a question asbout firefox. I currently have fiefox 56
  32-bit running on a windows 10 64-bit computer. If I completely remove
  my current version and install a new copy will I get a 64-bit version.
  i'm wondering this because I don't want to lose access to another
  browser since I can't get ie11 to work with nvda. thanks

  --
  73,
  Darren Tomblin(KC9JJJ)






 


Re: How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome

Gene
 

If you just hear a sound, all that tells you is that something changed somewhere and that you should look for it.  It doesn't tell you what to look for in terms of structure, a frame, a new tab, a new window, all you know is that something changed.  Or, if the sound could be specialized enough to tell you that something changed on the page and you know that it is on the same page, that doesn't tell you what you want to look for.  I consider it much more important that the screen-reader interrupt what it is doing and read what has changed on the screen.  Then, regardless of what kind of structure it is, the person can find it by using the screen-reader find or can experiment by other methods.  Messages a browser displays are handled in this way, such as a message that asks you if you want to remember a password or other browser messages such as uhnresponsive script messages.  A sound isn't played. 
 
Gene

Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome

Is this not the job of the browser either through sound or via some kind of
focus change event?
 This is precisely why I like sounds for Firefox.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome


But a related question is how to know something has come up.  It appears
from your comment that you get no indication that this has occurred.  I
don't know if this is the same structure on different web pages.  If you had
an indication that something had come up and if that something were read
automatically, you could move to it as you would anything on a page, with
the find command, or if it contains a form using various quick navigation
commands, etc.  But it appears the most important question is whether and
how you get notices of such occurrences.  If NVDA doesn't give any, this is
something that should be considered.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Crabtree
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 8:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome


The pop-up is in the same tab as the original web page, not a new tab. The
original web page is shaded and the pop-up sits centrally.

The pop-up is triggered when trying to view a video, which is available only
to those with paid accounts.

I have a paid account and would expect the fact that I was already signed in
to stop the pop-up showing, but they seem to want to verify my eligibility.

However, we shouldn't focus too much on Racing UK, as a number of other
sites display similar pop-ups when you try to do something with your account
or where they feel you should be asked something - for instance, about
saving settings or user preferences.

I just wondered if someone had a simple means of focussing on a pop-up,
rather than me having to ask a sighted person if there is an unusual word on
it, so I can search on that.




Re: A few comments on recent threads

Rayn Darren <rayndarren@...>
 

I'd be happy to proofread documents in English and can easily do html markup for loading to the site, unfortunately I'm unable to convert audio files at this time though will be learning to do so next year. I only speak English, so am unable to translate as well, but I'd be happy to help in the ways mentioned.

Rayn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Well for the central location all tutorials unless spacifically meant
for outside viewing and for easy access should be in html, with a text
download in txt extention.

Yes people would have to be added to update their own tutorials I am not
sure how that would work.

As for audios, there would have to be some rules for them.

Language, and voice, the hardware, etc.

I can see audio accompanying a standard tutorial but I wouldn't want an
audio tutorial on its own.

There would have to be rules on what formats were used.

Bunches of tutorials could be zipped I could see links to 7zip, even
adobe for those viewing pdfs.

Over that though pdfs would have to be straight text and not scanned
text if allowed.

Here is the cludge, not everyone is going to have or want an office
program to view a tutorial, I think wordpad can handle rtf but don't
quote me on this.

So your formats sould be txt and probably html with maybe audio.

In terms of audio, most players can play mp3s.

Not everyone will be able to play ogg and or flack files.

One thing that will have to be stopped immediately is for those that do
tutorials posting them in wav files or if they do someone is going to
have to convert those to mp3 files befor posting them.

Also unless high quality is needed 128-192 kbps files are probably ok,
we don't want people to use lots of their internet especially since we
don't know how stable x person's net could be especially outside
standard developed countries.

I am not sure about language, there is no way everyone could post in
every language and or that sort of thing either.

English would have to be the commen language used I am not sure how
translations of tutorials would be handled I could see you selecting a
language and maybe the tutorials could be translated by those that knew
a language but its tedius if there was a lot of them.

That may be doable if slow.

But what we absolutely don't want is a tutorial written in another
language first posted without an english translation, and it would be
better if tutorials were in english first otherwise that could become a
problem.

Then again if the person doing this is not good in english such as it
would have to be edited to make sence if they feel that they are
comfortable writing in their own language and as long as someone can
translate into english and is good at both then thats probably ok.

When I wrote the proposal yesterday on the back of the last drama
session I never fully thought about what I was fully meaning till I read
this message, the poster is right.

Now once set up I do think the resource if kept updated will be a really
good idea but it really needs to be set up properly.

Sadly google translate is not always the best to translate anything into
english unless that is all you want is a general meaning.




On 21/11/2017 11:04 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to
date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is
to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out,
it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can
hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something
understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with
no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about
tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will
need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin
based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able
to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this
group. The best course I think is to simply point people at
explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you
can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly
lets not argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives,
at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for
this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do
watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of
everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues
reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do
not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as
the developers one. These seem to be all listed with their
subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are
baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask
somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will
not be as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to
use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up
portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard
shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a
known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that
can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours.
Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release
but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in
messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions
complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any
reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but
most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might
be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously
badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in
email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a
day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This
is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are
responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always
read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could
well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads
on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or
indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



.


Re: A few comments on recent threads

JM Casey <crystallogic@...>
 

Hi.

Not checked out too many tutorials but I thought I could weigh in.

Yes, wordpad will handle rtfs just fine. But I have to ask: isn't html all-round the best format for these sorts of things? You can't put links in a text file, and html is pretty much cross-platform, so as long as someone has some sort of browser or viewer, they should not only be able to read the file, but effectively use a table of contents as well.

I don't have much of an opinion on audio. I know a lot of people like them but personally I would much rather just read something. But yes, I'd think a well-recorded file, converted to mp3, would be best for most people. You could keep the bit-rate down pretty low so long as the actual recording was of a decent quality (minimum ambient noise, etc). Even the rather expensive training materials from Freedom Scientific, when I reviewed them for my old work, were full of artifacts and crap that made them irritating to listen to. I know some people could do better, but, again, I highly prefer a simple html document containing text.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: November 21, 2017 3:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Well for the central location all tutorials unless spacifically meant for outside viewing and for easy access should be in html, with a text download in txt extention.

Yes people would have to be added to update their own tutorials I am not sure how that would work.

As for audios, there would have to be some rules for them.

Language, and voice, the hardware, etc.

I can see audio accompanying a standard tutorial but I wouldn't want an audio tutorial on its own.

There would have to be rules on what formats were used.

Bunches of tutorials could be zipped I could see links to 7zip, even adobe for those viewing pdfs.

Over that though pdfs would have to be straight text and not scanned text if allowed.

Here is the cludge, not everyone is going to have or want an office program to view a tutorial, I think wordpad can handle rtf but don't quote me on this.

So your formats sould be txt and probably html with maybe audio.

In terms of audio, most players can play mp3s.

Not everyone will be able to play ogg and or flack files.

One thing that will have to be stopped immediately is for those that do tutorials posting them in wav files or if they do someone is going to have to convert those to mp3 files befor posting them.

Also unless high quality is needed 128-192 kbps files are probably ok, we don't want people to use lots of their internet especially since we don't know how stable x person's net could be especially outside standard developed countries.

I am not sure about language, there is no way everyone could post in every language and or that sort of thing either.

English would have to be the commen language used I am not sure how translations of tutorials would be handled I could see you selecting a language and maybe the tutorials could be translated by those that knew a language but its tedius if there was a lot of them.

That may be doable if slow.

But what we absolutely don't want is a tutorial written in another language first posted without an english translation, and it would be better if tutorials were in english first otherwise that could become a problem.

Then again if the person doing this is not good in english such as it would have to be edited to make sence if they feel that they are comfortable writing in their own language and as long as someone can translate into english and is good at both then thats probably ok.

When I wrote the proposal yesterday on the back of the last drama session I never fully thought about what I was fully meaning till I read this message, the poster is right.

Now once set up I do think the resource if kept updated will be a really good idea but it really needs to be set up properly.

Sadly google translate is not always the best to translate anything into english unless that is all you want is a general meaning.




On 21/11/2017 11:04 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to
date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is
to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out,
it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can
hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something
understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with
no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about
tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will
need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin
based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able
to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this
group. The best course I think is to simply point people at
explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you
can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly
lets not argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives,
at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for
this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do
watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of
everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues
reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do
not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as
the developers one. These seem to be all listed with their
subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are
baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask
somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will
not be as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to
use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up
portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard
shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a
known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that
can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours.
Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release
but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in
messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions
complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any
reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but
most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might
be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously
badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in
email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a
day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This
is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are
responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always
read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could
well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads
on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or
indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.



.


Re: A few comments on recent threads

Gene
 

I don't know what you intended to say but it looked as though you were saying that when creating a tutorial, voices shouldn't be used in its creation that are not already available to the user.  That is what I responded to.  And there are many people who are not new users who want to know about voices.
 
When you send such messages about ribbons, I don't argue just to argue.  While there may be some people who have a lot of difficulty learning ribbons, for one reason or another, I see no reason to believe this is representative.  I consider it part of the same gloom and doom atmosphere that surrounds the release of any new version of Windows.  I dispute your comments because there is so much predisposition among blind computer users against ribbons that such comments may strongly reinforce such attitudes and discourage people from using ribbons or trying to learn them.
 
Gene
 
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

I am basically just saying that the  new user will not be downloading
voices, end of story, not that one should not use them. For example you
could have a tutorial explaining how to get a certain voice.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


To avoid any possible confusion, this is Gene from the United States, not
Gene from New Zealand, the Gene who hosts a tutorial page.  I'm not that
tutorial page hosting Gene nor have I created more than a few tutorials
related to NVDA.

Tutorials should not limit voices to only what is available in Windows or,
to the default NVDA voice.  Many voices not universally available are
popular and may be as or more understandable than what is universally
available.  You are ruling out the Windows 10 Microsoft voices, you are
ruling out the english version of Eloquence, which is very understandable, I
can't comment on other languages.  There are lots of other voices being
widely used and a new user may find some or many of the more pleasant to
listen to and easier to understand than what is universally available.  And
none of the Microsoft voices, as far as I know, are universally available
since different versions of Windows use different default voices.  Tutorials
are not just for new computer users.  They are also for experienced computer
users who have used speech for a long time.  the new user, in my opinion,
doesn't need speech slowed below or not much below the standard speaking
rate and for experienced users, slow speech is a real burden to listen to
for a lot of users.  And a good tutorial presenter repeats a lot of what the
speech says just to make sure it is understood, regardless of the person's
familiarity or lack of familiarity with synthesized speech.  When I do
recorded tutorials, I repeat what is important, such as all or most of the
items I tab through in a dialog or move through in a menu.  I have the
speech say something like save as, then I repeat save as.  That allows me to
use a speech rate that is not torture for experienced listeners to listen to
because I repeat everything important so those who are not experienced
synthesized speech listeners will have no trouble knowing what is being
said.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads



1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to date, who
is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is to use
a slowed down voice. As we are talking to  people starting out, it takes
time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can hear as fast as
you do. Also the voice should be something understandable and something
available in all flavours of windows with no additional downloads.
 Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about tutorials
in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will need to be
significantly different given the complexity of none Latin based languages.
 2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
 To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able to
grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this group. The
best course I think is to simply point people at explanations and files to
maybe try to make them go away wherever you can for those like me who are
obviously thick in this area! Certainly lets not  argue about them ad
infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
 Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives, at
least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for this too?)
and report your findings there.Although some developers do watch here, they
can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of everyday queries. If
you cannot actually figure out the issues reporting section of Github, and
it can be a bit daunting if you do not use online forms a lot, then
subscribe to one of the lists such as the developers  one. These seem to be
all listed with their subscription details on the nv access web site. Then
if you are baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list,
ask somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will not be
as  tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
 Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to use
nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up portable
version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard shortcut.
 This is especially  needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a known
good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
 Remember,  next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that can
trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours. Thos on
the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release but still
contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in messages to the
various lists which are more or less full versions complete with error
sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any reply
to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but most often
this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might be slightly
sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously  badly meant, as
flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in email
delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a day, meaning
one has to reply again to take account of new info. This is not uncommon so
don't jump on people unless its clear they are  responding to each and every
message in a thread all the time. always read back a bit in the list before
posting a question, as it could well be that its been asked before.this is
evident in the many threads on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
 grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or indeed
not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
 Anyway,  just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
 Brian



bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.







Re: A few comments on recent threads

 

Well for the central location all tutorials unless spacifically meant for outside viewing and for easy access should be in html, with a text download in txt extention.

Yes people would have to be added to update their own tutorials I am not sure how that would work.

As for audios, there would have to be some rules for them.

Language, and voice, the hardware, etc.

I can see audio accompanying a standard tutorial but I wouldn't want an audio tutorial on its own.

There would have to be rules on what formats were used.

Bunches of tutorials could be zipped I could see links to 7zip, even adobe for those viewing pdfs.

Over that though pdfs would have to be straight text and not scanned text if allowed.

Here is the cludge, not everyone is going to have or want an office program to view a tutorial, I think wordpad can handle rtf but don't quote me on this.

So your formats sould be txt and probably html with maybe audio.

In terms of audio, most players can play mp3s.

Not everyone will be able to play ogg and or flack files.

One thing that will have to be stopped immediately is for those that do tutorials posting them in wav files or if they do someone is going to have to convert those to mp3 files befor posting them.

Also unless high quality is needed 128-192 kbps files are probably ok, we don't want people to use lots of their internet especially since we don't know how stable x person's net could be especially outside standard developed countries.

I am not sure about language, there is no way everyone could post in every language and or that sort of thing either.

English would have to be the commen language used I am not sure how translations of tutorials would be handled I could see you selecting a language and maybe the tutorials could be translated by those that knew a language but its tedius if there was a lot of them.

That may be doable if slow.

But what we absolutely don't want is a tutorial written in another language first posted without an english translation, and it would be better if tutorials were in english first otherwise that could become a problem.

Then again if the person doing this is not good in english such as it would have to be edited to make sence if they feel that they are comfortable writing in their own language and as long as someone can translate into english and is good at both then thats probably ok.

When I wrote the proposal yesterday on the back of the last drama session I never fully thought about what I was fully meaning till I read this message, the poster is right.

Now once set up I do think the resource if kept updated will be a really good idea but it really needs to be set up  properly.

Sadly google translate is not always the best to translate anything into english unless that is all you want is a general meaning.

On 21/11/2017 11:04 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to  people starting out, it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this group. The best course I think is to simply point people at explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly lets not  argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives, at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as the developers  one. These seem to be all listed with their subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will not be as  tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard shortcut.
This is especially  needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember,  next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours. Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously  badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are  responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway,  just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


.


Re: Firefox ESR Success

Sarah k Alawami
 

That's odd. I wonder why that happened. I'm surprised that profile in %appdata% or where ever it is located now a days did not port over.

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:23 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

Well whatever works for you is fine of course. I lost many of my bookmarks when I tried to use the 64 bit version.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Russell" <david.sonofhashem@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:14 PM
Subject: [nvda] Firefox ESR Success


Hi NVDA Group!

I'm very happy to tell you that the ESR Version of Firefox 64-bit US
English is on my computer now, and things are working very well!

Yes, I know Gene counseled the 32-bit would be fine and so on, but
until understanding is better on my end, I prefer to match what was
recommended with what is had.

I am glad in all this to discover the online newsletter from Australia
called, Entopia. It seems to come out once a week, features a short
notice about NVDA, and I did subscribe. By the way, good luck to those
of you from Australia with your forthcoming elections.. I heard your
national radio service on tunein.com.

All the Best,

-- 
David Russell
david.sonofhashem@...
"chilah phanim" Make G-d smile!




70861 - 70880 of 101143