Date   

Re: Submenu expantion on website

Sarah k Alawami
 

I've ben an nvda user since 2010 but I forgot how do you get to focus mode again? I feel I should know this, but for some reason I'm drawing a blank over here. Maybe it's because I'm exhausted and a bit stressed about some stuff I need to get done before the end of the year.

On Nov 22, 2017, at 10:21 AM, Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:

Thanks very much, Adriani.  I really appreciate your help.  I tested this and it works very well as you described.  It sounds as if there is nothing the developer needs to modify on his end then.  I am fairly new with NVDA, and thus didn’t think to try this process.

 

Warmly,
Jonathan

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Submenu expantion on website

 

When you activate focus mode and pres tab and then enter, the menu will expand and you will have some additional links. For example our community contains Alumni, Staff and so on. Jaws seems not to recognize the new links. NVDA recognizes them only in focus mode but not in browse mode. I will create an issue for that.

 

 

Best
Adriani

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Jonathan Milam
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. November 2017 18:00
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] Submenu expantion on website

 

Hi All,

 

When I visit:
and attempt to expand the submenus for Help, explore services, WFU Community, and About Us, the menu doesn’t expand with enter or space, or even using the number pad  to left click it.  I have tested with Firefox, IE and Chrome.  However, JAWS expands them without difficulty.  Are there any ideas for what the developer can try to make these expand properly?  When expanded, the body of the web page changes and the content appears under the next heading.

 

Thanks,
Jonathan



Re: How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome

 

For me not exactly interaction, but since we talk about firefox I will put it here.

Noscript has finally been updated.

But I can not get settings to work, I can not also see the standard information bar where stuff is blocked.

Today I found out the hard way, things worked but resilio said it was not compatible and to get an updated web program.

I had no idea what to do, should I reformat, was firefox mangled.

I have always checked noscript.net since release, but hadn't today it was installed, I thought about changing options, I couldn't even get access to the menu that usually popped up in 56 and lower, and I decided to remove noscript.

Resilio sync worked again.

Until noscript works though I am leaving it off.

I have sent an email to the dev about it but to be honest due to inaccessible things for user switchers I am seriously going to have to downgrade to 56.0 unless that is if  someone knows how to trick sites that detect esr that I use 56 at least that is.

Failing that I may drop to waterfox unless thats updated to.

On 22/11/2017 11:53 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
If you get used to which sound means what, like the one when firefox pops up an alert, say about redirection, and sometimes nvda seems not to read the message, you can key blindly and get to where you are going.
Likewise when you do not have the download window open you can here when its completed.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome


If you just hear a sound, all that tells you is that something changed somewhere and that you should look for it.  It doesn't tell you what to look for in terms of structure, a frame, a new tab, a new window, all you know is that something changed.  Or, if the sound could be specialized enough to tell you that something changed on the page and you know that it is on the same page, that doesn't tell you what you want to look for.  I consider it much more important that the screen-reader interrupt what it is doing and read what has changed on the screen.  Then, regardless of what kind of structure it is, the person can find it by using the screen-reader find or can experiment by other methods.  Messages a browser displays are handled in this way, such as a message that asks you if you want to remember a password or other browser messages such as uhnresponsive script messages.  A sound isn't played.

Gene


From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome


Is this not the job of the browser either through sound or via some kind of
focus change event?
This is precisely why I like sounds for Firefox.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome


But a related question is how to know something has come up.  It appears
from your comment that you get no indication that this has occurred.  I
don't know if this is the same structure on different web pages. If you had
an indication that something had come up and if that something were read
automatically, you could move to it as you would anything on a page, with
the find command, or if it contains a form using various quick navigation
commands, etc.  But it appears the most important question is whether and
how you get notices of such occurrences.  If NVDA doesn't give any, this is
something that should be considered.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Crabtree
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 8:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome


The pop-up is in the same tab as the original web page, not a new tab. The
original web page is shaded and the pop-up sits centrally.

The pop-up is triggered when trying to view a video, which is available only
to those with paid accounts.

I have a paid account and would expect the fact that I was already signed in
to stop the pop-up showing, but they seem to want to verify my eligibility.

However, we shouldn't focus too much on Racing UK, as a number of other
sites display similar pop-ups when you try to do something with your account
or where they feel you should be asked something - for instance, about
saving settings or user preferences.

I just wondered if someone had a simple means of focussing on a pop-up,
rather than me having to ask a sighted person if there is an unusual word on
it, so I can search on that.






.


Re: A few comments on recent threads

Sarah k Alawami
 

Where does it say exactly in our laws we need to do that? I've actually never heard of such a thing. I write my books then include audio tutorials that follow the chapters as closely as possible. I do not transcribe. I don't have time for that especially with my ums and uhs.

On Nov 22, 2017, at 12:17 PM, Rayn Darren <rayndarren@...> wrote:

HI all,

I've been reading this thread for the past few days specifically regarding voices and speed. If we wish to be fully accessible and comply with all Accessibility Guidelines, we must include transcripts of all spoken materials anyhow. I do understand that doing so is another step and not only can it be time consuming, but some may see it as pointless particularly when doing a tutorial on something such as a new voice, it still needs to be done. After all, the last thing we wish to be accused of is accessibility inequality

As I offered with converting to html and proofreading, I am also willing to do transcripts.

Rayn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 2:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Of course if you use html you could easily have links to demos in audio, but
as has been said one needs to keep the speech rate slower than you probably
use and also how do you decide on a voice?
I know that sometimes the person giving the presentation can have an accent
that is often hard for some to understand depending on their life
experiences. Joseph is mostly good but now and aain as we all tend to do, he
can gabble a bit and that is when I struggle. I even do this myself when
talking about things I know about and its only when you listen to it later 
on that you  realise you have done it!
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


Hi.

Not checked out too many tutorials but I thought I could weigh in.

Yes, wordpad will handle rtfs just fine. But I have to ask: isn't html
all-round the best format for these sorts of things? You can't put links in
a text file, and html is pretty much cross-platform, so as long as someone 
has some sort of browser or viewer, they should not only be able to read the
file, but effectively use a table of contents as well.

I don't have much of an opinion on audio. I know a lot of people like them 
but personally I would much rather just read something. But yes, I'd think a
well-recorded file, converted to mp3, would be best for most people. You
could keep the bit-rate down pretty low so long as the actual recording was
of a decent quality (minimum ambient noise, etc). Even the rather expensive
training materials from Freedom Scientific, when I reviewed them for my old
work, were full of artifacts and crap that made them irritating to listen
to. I know some people could do better, but, again, I highly prefer a simple
html document containing text.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun
Everiss
Sent: November 21, 2017 3:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Well for the central location all tutorials unless spacifically meant for
outside viewing and for easy access should be in html, with a text download
in txt extention.

Yes people would have to be added to update their own tutorials I am not
sure how that would work.

As for audios, there would have to be some rules for them.

Language, and voice, the hardware, etc.

I can see audio accompanying a standard tutorial but I wouldn't want an
audio tutorial on its own.

There would have to be rules on what formats were used.

Bunches of tutorials could be zipped I could see links to 7zip, even adobe 
for those viewing pdfs.

Over that though pdfs would have to be straight text and not scanned text if
allowed.

Here is the cludge, not everyone is going to have or want an office program
to view a tutorial, I think wordpad can handle rtf but don't quote me on
this.

So your formats sould be txt and probably html with maybe audio.

In terms of audio, most players can play mp3s.

Not everyone will be able to play ogg and or flack files.

One thing that will have to be stopped immediately is for those that do
tutorials posting them in wav files or if they do someone is going to have 
to convert those to mp3 files befor posting them.

Also unless high quality is needed 128-192 kbps files are probably ok, we
don't want people to use lots of their internet especially since we don't
know how stable x person's net could be especially outside standard
developed countries.

I am not sure about language, there is no way everyone could post in every 
language and or that sort of thing either.

English would have to be the commen language used I am not sure how
translations of tutorials would be handled I could see you selecting a
language and maybe the tutorials could be translated by those that knew a
language but its tedius if there was a lot of them.

That may be doable if slow.

But what we absolutely don't want is a tutorial written in another language
first posted without an english translation, and it would be better if
tutorials were in english first otherwise that could become a problem.

Then again if the person doing this is not good in english such as it would
have to be edited to make sence if they feel that they are comfortable
writing in their own language and as long as someone can translate into
english and is good at both then thats probably ok.

When I wrote the proposal yesterday on the back of the last drama session I
never fully thought about what I was fully meaning till I read this message,
the poster is right.

Now once set up I do think the resource if kept updated will be a really
good idea but it really needs to be set up  properly.

Sadly google translate is not always the best to translate anything into
english unless that is all you want is a general meaning.




On 21/11/2017 11:04 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to
date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is
to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to  people starting out,
it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can
hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something
understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with
no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about
tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will
need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin
based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able
to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this
group. The best course I think is to simply point people at
explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you
can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly
lets not  argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives,
at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for
this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do
watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of
everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues
reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do
not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as
the developers  one. These seem to be all listed with their
subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are
baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask
somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will
not be as  tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to
use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up
portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard
shortcut.
This is especially  needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a
known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember,  next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that
can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours.
Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release
but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in
messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions
complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any
reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but
most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might
be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously
badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in
email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a
day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This
is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are
responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always
read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could
well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads
on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or
indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway,  just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



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Re: A few comments on recent threads

Karim Lakhani <karim.lakhani@...>
 

What is quency?
thanks.
 
 
 
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SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New Zealand
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Hi


I like old quincy as a voice same with Gene i use nice and clear are both of them.


Gene nz



On 11/22/2017 11:30 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I'm not getting drawn into which synth you like. i am using Quincy on espeak and its fine, for me of course, not for everyone. some never ever even explor thevoices though which is a shame. ( No I'm not upset cos i created Quincy in the first place! Grin)
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Otten" <motten53@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


Hi Brian,
If all the new user has is E speak, I suspect that many of those new users will be finding a way to get another voice immediately. I certainly did that. I change voices as soon as NVDA was installed, because I don’t need to listen to something that takes me back 40 years to the beginnings of blind computer use. Thanks, been there done that. And using that voice when you’re doing any kind of a tutorial is in my view a huge mistake, since it is really not understandable for a lot of people. I understand why the folks at in the excess use it. It does have a lot of languages, although I did try the Russian one, just for fun, because I understand Russian rather well. It was awful. I guess a native speaker could deal with it. Anyway, for all you tutorial writers out there, please use something that sounds human or at least is as good as eloquence, which I also don’t like but is much more understandable than E speak.
Mary

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

I  disagree. When I learned how to use a computer almost 17 years ago I wanted to 2 days after words download all voices for jaws. I even installed updates by myself and wanted to update all of my firmware. I was actually quite board at the pace my trainer was forced to go as he needed to prove I could do this that and the other. He could not move on to advanced topics even though I practically memorized the tutorials and manuals for jaws and my embosser and the what ever else I had gotten that year. I do slow down my voices but I do go at a  faster pace as someone can always rewind or pause but I don't go so fast that it's overwhelming.. I also try and be bubbly in all of mine as that also helps.

Take care all and have a wonderful Tuesday.

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

I am basically just saying that the  new user will not be downloading voices, end of story, not that one should not use them. For example you could have a tutorial explaining how to get a certain voice.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


To avoid any possible confusion, this is Gene from the United States, not Gene from New Zealand, the Gene who hosts a tutorial page.  I'm not that tutorial page hosting Gene nor have I created more than a few tutorials related to NVDA.

Tutorials should not limit voices to only what is available in Windows or, to the default NVDA voice.  Many voices not universally available are popular and may be as or more understandable than what is universally available.  You are ruling out the Windows 10 Microsoft voices, you are ruling out the english version of Eloquence, which is very understandable, I can't comment on other languages.  There are lots of other voices being widely used and a new user may find some or many of the more pleasant to listen to and easier to understand than what is universally available.  And none of the Microsoft voices, as far as I know, are universally available since different versions of Windows use different default voices.  Tutorials are not just for new computer users. They are also for experienced computer users who have used speech for a long time.  the new user, in my opinion, doesn't need speech slowed below or not much below the standard speaking rate and for experienced users, slow speech is a real burden to listen to for a lot of users.  And a good tutorial presenter repeats a lot of what the speech says just to make sure it is understood, regardless of the person's familiarity or lack of familiarity with synthesized speech.  When I do recorded tutorials, I repeat what is important, such as all or most of the items I tab through in a dialog or move through in a menu.  I have the speech say something like save as, then I repeat save as.  That allows me to use a speech rate that is not torture for experienced listeners to listen to because I repeat everything important so those who are not experienced synthesized speech listeners will have no trouble knowing what is being said.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads



1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to date, who
is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is to use
a slowed down voice. As we are talking to  people starting out, it takes
time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can hear as fast as
you do. Also the voice should be something understandable and something
available in all flavours of windows with no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about tutorials
in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will need to be
significantly different given the complexity of none Latin based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able to
grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this group. The
best course I think is to simply point people at explanations and files to
maybe try to make them go away wherever you can for those like me who are
obviously thick in this area! Certainly lets not  argue about them ad
infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives, at
least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for this too?)
and report your findings there.Although some developers do watch here, they
can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of everyday queries. If
you cannot actually figure out the issues reporting section of Github, and
it can be a bit daunting if you do not use online forms a lot, then
subscribe to one of the lists such as the developers  one. These seem to be
all listed with their subscription details on the nv access web site. Then
if you are baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list,
ask somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will not be
as  tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to use
nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up portable
version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard shortcut.
This is especially  needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a known
good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember,  next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that can
trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours. Thos on
the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release but still
contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in messages to the
various lists which are more or less full versions complete with error
sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any reply
to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but most often
this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might be slightly
sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously  badly meant, as
flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in email
delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a day, meaning
one has to reply again to take account of new info. This is not uncommon so
don't jump on people unless its clear they are  responding to each and every
message in a thread all the time. always read back a bit in the list before
posting a question, as it could well be that its been asked before.this is
evident in the many threads on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or indeed
not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway,  just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



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--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: insecure login

Chris
 

Yes, always done it

 

From: Giles Turnbull
Sent: 22 November 2017 19:29
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] insecure login

 

Hi all,

has anybody else using a pin to login to Windows found that the last digit of the 4 digit pin number gets announced? It does for me on one of my tablets and, when I switched my second tablet from password to pin today, that also does. I've been using both tablets at least a year, one is a Chuwi HI10 and the other is a Microsoft Surface Pro 4.

I'm using NVDA 17.3 on both tablets, and both are set to use NVDA settings on the login screen. This is with Windows 10, and has been doing this at least since two updates before the one I'm using (the Fall update I think, Version 1703 (OS Build 15063.726))

The pin field shows circles or asterisks and, as I type my pin — let's use 1234 as an example, I type 1, 2, 3 (all silently), and then as I press 4 it auto submits and announces 4. By comparisson, when I used a password it didn't auto submit and I had to either hit enter or tab to the submit button.

Given that a four digit pin has 10,000 possible combinations, anybody overhearing the last digit and wishing to crack the pin would only have 1,000 combinations to check, which seems a significant security issue!

Any advice appreciated :)

Giles

 


Re: A few comments on recent threads

Rayn Darren <rayndarren@...>
 

HI all,

I've been reading this thread for the past few days specifically regarding voices and speed. If we wish to be fully accessible and comply with all Accessibility Guidelines, we must include transcripts of all spoken materials anyhow. I do understand that doing so is another step and not only can it be time consuming, but some may see it as pointless particularly when doing a tutorial on something such as a new voice, it still needs to be done. After all, the last thing we wish to be accused of is accessibility inequality

As I offered with converting to html and proofreading, I am also willing to do transcripts.

Rayn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 2:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Of course if you use html you could easily have links to demos in audio, but
as has been said one needs to keep the speech rate slower than you probably
use and also how do you decide on a voice?
I know that sometimes the person giving the presentation can have an accent
that is often hard for some to understand depending on their life
experiences. Joseph is mostly good but now and aain as we all tend to do, he
can gabble a bit and that is when I struggle. I even do this myself when
talking about things I know about and its only when you listen to it later
on that you realise you have done it!
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


Hi.

Not checked out too many tutorials but I thought I could weigh in.

Yes, wordpad will handle rtfs just fine. But I have to ask: isn't html
all-round the best format for these sorts of things? You can't put links in
a text file, and html is pretty much cross-platform, so as long as someone
has some sort of browser or viewer, they should not only be able to read the
file, but effectively use a table of contents as well.

I don't have much of an opinion on audio. I know a lot of people like them
but personally I would much rather just read something. But yes, I'd think a
well-recorded file, converted to mp3, would be best for most people. You
could keep the bit-rate down pretty low so long as the actual recording was
of a decent quality (minimum ambient noise, etc). Even the rather expensive
training materials from Freedom Scientific, when I reviewed them for my old
work, were full of artifacts and crap that made them irritating to listen
to. I know some people could do better, but, again, I highly prefer a simple
html document containing text.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun
Everiss
Sent: November 21, 2017 3:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Well for the central location all tutorials unless spacifically meant for
outside viewing and for easy access should be in html, with a text download
in txt extention.

Yes people would have to be added to update their own tutorials I am not
sure how that would work.

As for audios, there would have to be some rules for them.

Language, and voice, the hardware, etc.

I can see audio accompanying a standard tutorial but I wouldn't want an
audio tutorial on its own.

There would have to be rules on what formats were used.

Bunches of tutorials could be zipped I could see links to 7zip, even adobe
for those viewing pdfs.

Over that though pdfs would have to be straight text and not scanned text if
allowed.

Here is the cludge, not everyone is going to have or want an office program
to view a tutorial, I think wordpad can handle rtf but don't quote me on
this.

So your formats sould be txt and probably html with maybe audio.

In terms of audio, most players can play mp3s.

Not everyone will be able to play ogg and or flack files.

One thing that will have to be stopped immediately is for those that do
tutorials posting them in wav files or if they do someone is going to have
to convert those to mp3 files befor posting them.

Also unless high quality is needed 128-192 kbps files are probably ok, we
don't want people to use lots of their internet especially since we don't
know how stable x person's net could be especially outside standard
developed countries.

I am not sure about language, there is no way everyone could post in every
language and or that sort of thing either.

English would have to be the commen language used I am not sure how
translations of tutorials would be handled I could see you selecting a
language and maybe the tutorials could be translated by those that knew a
language but its tedius if there was a lot of them.

That may be doable if slow.

But what we absolutely don't want is a tutorial written in another language
first posted without an english translation, and it would be better if
tutorials were in english first otherwise that could become a problem.

Then again if the person doing this is not good in english such as it would
have to be edited to make sence if they feel that they are comfortable
writing in their own language and as long as someone can translate into
english and is good at both then thats probably ok.

When I wrote the proposal yesterday on the back of the last drama session I
never fully thought about what I was fully meaning till I read this message,
the poster is right.

Now once set up I do think the resource if kept updated will be a really
good idea but it really needs to be set up properly.

Sadly google translate is not always the best to translate anything into
english unless that is all you want is a general meaning.




On 21/11/2017 11:04 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to
date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is
to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out,
it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can
hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something
understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with
no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about
tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will
need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin
based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able
to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this
group. The best course I think is to simply point people at
explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you
can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly
lets not argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives,
at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for
this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do
watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of
everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues
reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do
not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as
the developers one. These seem to be all listed with their
subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are
baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask
somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will
not be as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to
use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up
portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard
shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a
known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that
can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours.
Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release
but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in
messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions
complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any
reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but
most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might
be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously
badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in
email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a
day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This
is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are
responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always
read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could
well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads
on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or
indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



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.


Re: insecure login

Sarah k Alawami
 

No, never heard of, or had the issue. I guess keep an eye on it?

Take care

On Nov 22, 2017, at 11:29 AM, Giles Turnbull <giles.turnbull@...> wrote:

Hi all,

has anybody else using a pin to login to Windows found that the last digit of the 4 digit pin number gets announced? It does for me on one of my tablets and, when I switched my second tablet from password to pin today, that also does. I've been using both tablets at least a year, one is a Chuwi HI10 and the other is a Microsoft Surface Pro 4.

I'm using NVDA 17.3 on both tablets, and both are set to use NVDA settings on the login screen. This is with Windows 10, and has been doing this at least since two updates before the one I'm using (the Fall update I think, Version 1703 (OS Build 15063.726))

The pin field shows circles or asterisks and, as I type my pin — let's use 1234 as an example, I type 1, 2, 3 (all silently), and then as I press 4 it auto submits and announces 4. By comparisson, when I used a password it didn't auto submit and I had to either hit enter or tab to the submit button.

Given that a four digit pin has 10,000 possible combinations, anybody overhearing the last digit and wishing to crack the pin would only have 1,000 combinations to check, which seems a significant security issue!

Any advice appreciated :)

Giles


Re: firefox question

David <trailerdavid@...>
 

Basically, you should be right. 32-bit machines, only can run 32-bit
software. On 64-bit systems, it usually would be your choice, whether
you want to run 32- or 64-bit software.


Yet, I have been running 32-bit Firefox for a long time. When it updated
itself to version 56.02, it automatically detected that my system is a
64-bit, and installed the corresponding version on my computer. This
really caused trouble, and I see other users complaining the same. For
some reason, it seems Mozilla no longer let the user choose if he wants
32-bit on his 64-machine.


To what extent this could be voided by any setting in the Firefox
program, I do not know; but would greatly appreciate if anyone has more
info on the matter.

On 11/21/2017 1:02 AM, JM Casey wrote:
You can't use the 64-bit version on a 32-bit machine, but that should be your only real restriction, I think, and since you have a 64-bit machine -- it wouldn't be a problem. But I'm pretty sure you can just download the 32-bit version anyway, if that's what you want.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Darren Tomblin
Sent: November 20, 2017 6:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] firefox question

i'm asking because some people have been saying on here that if the bit versions are different the broswer won't work.


On 11/20/2017 6:50 PM, JM Casey wrote:
You have a choice whether you want the 64 or 32 bit version. If you completely remove your copy, there won't be anything to automatically update anyway, so you can just go to Mozilla and download the version of the browser you want.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Darren Tomblin
Sent: November 20, 2017 6:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] firefox question

hi, I have a question asbout firefox. I currently have fiefox 56 32-bit running on a windows 10 64-bit computer. If I completely remove my current version and install a new copy will I get a 64-bit version.
i'm wondering this because I don't want to lose access to another browser since I can't get ie11 to work with nvda. thanks

--
73,
Darren Tomblin(KC9JJJ)








chromebook

David <trailerdavid@...>
 

Listers,
I am really not sure, to what extent this might be totally off-topic. If
so, forebare with me, and contact me off-list.

I am contemplating getting a new device, which would replace my recently
broken netbook. The device will be serving as a backup unit, should my
main system get a flue, headache - or cause me to have such diagnoses.
Smiles.

Today, I received an offer on something named Chromebook. I do not know
what it is, or what to expect from it. Is it even running Windows? Or,
more importantly, is it by any means workable by a blind user? Can it be
run by means of NVDA, or what kind of screen reader would it be using?
Well, is it even a computer, or are we talking more like a mobile device?

If any of you have some hands-on experience, or more technical
information of some sort - I would be greatly appreciating you dropping
me a note on the matter. I want to know what to order, before I place
any order for the next computerized device. So please educate me.

Thanks alot,


insecure login

Giles Turnbull
 

Hi all,

has anybody else using a pin to login to Windows found that the last digit of the 4 digit pin number gets announced? It does for me on one of my tablets and, when I switched my second tablet from password to pin today, that also does. I've been using both tablets at least a year, one is a Chuwi HI10 and the other is a Microsoft Surface Pro 4.

I'm using NVDA 17.3 on both tablets, and both are set to use NVDA settings on the login screen. This is with Windows 10, and has been doing this at least since two updates before the one I'm using (the Fall update I think, Version 1703 (OS Build 15063.726))

The pin field shows circles or asterisks and, as I type my pin — let's use 1234 as an example, I type 1, 2, 3 (all silently), and then as I press 4 it auto submits and announces 4. By comparisson, when I used a password it didn't auto submit and I had to either hit enter or tab to the submit button.

Given that a four digit pin has 10,000 possible combinations, anybody overhearing the last digit and wishing to crack the pin would only have 1,000 combinations to check, which seems a significant security issue!

Any advice appreciated :)

Giles


Re: A few comments on recent threads

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


I like old quincy as a voice same with Gene i use nice and clear are both of them.


Gene nz



On 11/22/2017 11:30 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I'm not getting drawn into which synth you like. i am using Quincy on espeak and its fine, for me of course, not for everyone. some never ever even explor thevoices though which is a shame. ( No I'm not upset cos i created Quincy in the first place! Grin)
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Otten" <motten53@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


Hi Brian,
If all the new user has is E speak, I suspect that many of those new users will be finding a way to get another voice immediately. I certainly did that. I change voices as soon as NVDA was installed, because I don’t need to listen to something that takes me back 40 years to the beginnings of blind computer use. Thanks, been there done that. And using that voice when you’re doing any kind of a tutorial is in my view a huge mistake, since it is really not understandable for a lot of people. I understand why the folks at in the excess use it. It does have a lot of languages, although I did try the Russian one, just for fun, because I understand Russian rather well. It was awful. I guess a native speaker could deal with it. Anyway, for all you tutorial writers out there, please use something that sounds human or at least is as good as eloquence, which I also don’t like but is much more understandable than E speak.
Mary

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

I  disagree. When I learned how to use a computer almost 17 years ago I wanted to 2 days after words download all voices for jaws. I even installed updates by myself and wanted to update all of my firmware. I was actually quite board at the pace my trainer was forced to go as he needed to prove I could do this that and the other. He could not move on to advanced topics even though I practically memorized the tutorials and manuals for jaws and my embosser and the what ever else I had gotten that year. I do slow down my voices but I do go at a  faster pace as someone can always rewind or pause but I don't go so fast that it's overwhelming.. I also try and be bubbly in all of mine as that also helps.

Take care all and have a wonderful Tuesday.

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

I am basically just saying that the  new user will not be downloading voices, end of story, not that one should not use them. For example you could have a tutorial explaining how to get a certain voice.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


To avoid any possible confusion, this is Gene from the United States, not Gene from New Zealand, the Gene who hosts a tutorial page.  I'm not that tutorial page hosting Gene nor have I created more than a few tutorials related to NVDA.

Tutorials should not limit voices to only what is available in Windows or, to the default NVDA voice.  Many voices not universally available are popular and may be as or more understandable than what is universally available.  You are ruling out the Windows 10 Microsoft voices, you are ruling out the english version of Eloquence, which is very understandable, I can't comment on other languages.  There are lots of other voices being widely used and a new user may find some or many of the more pleasant to listen to and easier to understand than what is universally available.  And none of the Microsoft voices, as far as I know, are universally available since different versions of Windows use different default voices.  Tutorials are not just for new computer users. They are also for experienced computer users who have used speech for a long time.  the new user, in my opinion, doesn't need speech slowed below or not much below the standard speaking rate and for experienced users, slow speech is a real burden to listen to for a lot of users.  And a good tutorial presenter repeats a lot of what the speech says just to make sure it is understood, regardless of the person's familiarity or lack of familiarity with synthesized speech.  When I do recorded tutorials, I repeat what is important, such as all or most of the items I tab through in a dialog or move through in a menu.  I have the speech say something like save as, then I repeat save as.  That allows me to use a speech rate that is not torture for experienced listeners to listen to because I repeat everything important so those who are not experienced synthesized speech listeners will have no trouble knowing what is being said.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads



1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to date, who
is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is to use
a slowed down voice. As we are talking to  people starting out, it takes
time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can hear as fast as
you do. Also the voice should be something understandable and something
available in all flavours of windows with no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about tutorials
in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will need to be
significantly different given the complexity of none Latin based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able to
grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this group. The
best course I think is to simply point people at explanations and files to
maybe try to make them go away wherever you can for those like me who are
obviously thick in this area! Certainly lets not  argue about them ad
infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives, at
least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for this too?)
and report your findings there.Although some developers do watch here, they
can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of everyday queries. If
you cannot actually figure out the issues reporting section of Github, and
it can be a bit daunting if you do not use online forms a lot, then
subscribe to one of the lists such as the developers  one. These seem to be
all listed with their subscription details on the nv access web site. Then
if you are baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list,
ask somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will not be
as  tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to use
nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up portable
version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard shortcut.
This is especially  needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a known
good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember,  next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that can
trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours. Thos on
the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release but still
contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in messages to the
various lists which are more or less full versions complete with error
sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any reply
to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but most often
this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might be slightly
sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously  badly meant, as
flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in email
delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a day, meaning
one has to reply again to take account of new info. This is not uncommon so
don't jump on people unless its clear they are  responding to each and every
message in a thread all the time. always read back a bit in the list before
posting a question, as it could well be that its been asked before.this is
evident in the many threads on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or indeed
not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway,  just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.
Brian



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Please address personal email to:-
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--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

JM Casey <crystallogic@...>
 

Hi Brian.

The links are all still there, and screen-reader working perfectly. They will activate in a new tab or window if I use the context menu options on the links. Pressing enter does not a thing, though. However, I know that the screen-reader (nvda, and jaws too in fact) are aware of the links. I hesitated to post this at all because I'm quite sure it's not really a screen-reader issue.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: November 22, 2017 6:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

And are you saying this affects nvda and other screenreaders?


After all if a link works and then does not work that would suggest that the page you are reading is not actually in focus for the reader or has something transparent over it. I assume toggling the focus and browse mode still work and that single letter nav ie k will still work? If you cursor along a line do you hear the word link at any point and will it then operate?

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:08 PM
Subject: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating


Hello everyone. Really sorry about this as it's not strictly speaking an nVDA question, but I know Firefox has been a hot topic round these parts for quite some time, so it doesn't seem entirely inappropriate. As I said in a previous message, I was using FF 57 and it was working -- ok. But as other users pointed out, it was kind of slow and weird. And as much as I'm growing to really like nVDA, it did annoy me that I could not use it with JAWS at all. So, I went and got Firefox ESR, as many on this list have also done, and installed it. But now I have a weird issue, and it's one I seem to remember coming up against with firefox before, but I can't recall for the life of me what I had to do to correct it.

Basically, links will not activate as they normally do. I go to a site with ctrl-l, and can maybe click on one link as I normally would, with the enter key. Goodreads.com is an example of a site I visit frequently which now does this. I can search for a book title and get a list of results, but then clicking on that item appears to do absolutely nothing. The mobile facebook site is doing the same thing, as have other sites, so I know it isn't site-specific, but something on my end. The links *will* activate if I select "open in new tab" from the context menu, but I don't want to have to do this every time, obviously. My only thought is that something got changed when I installed ESR over 57, a setting or something. This certainly wasn't happening before yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.


Re: Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

JM Casey <crystallogic@...>
 

Hi Brian.
There was no option when I did the install, but it should be removable from the settings area of Windows, and it keeps the folder with your profile and bookmarks, which you can then delete manually. *hopefully* this will be good enough to solve my problem.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: November 22, 2017 6:02 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

I seem to remember you used to get a choice on this, but if you do want to start clean the old version of revo will uninstall the 32 bit version of Firefox utterly.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating


I don't thik uninstalling the browser removes book marks. it probably just uninstalls the program itself. You can probably easily check this with a Google search for something like Does uninstalling Firefox remove book marks and since I'm not sure, I wouldn't uninstall the program until you know or have backed them up, as I shall discuss below.

You can back up bookmarks in firefox and then restore them in exactly the same organization as they were if you ever lose them for some reason. They should be backed up as anything you don't want to lose should be. I can describe how to do it if you want. You may want to do so before uninstalling firefox. Or, if you get the portable version, you can back them up and then restore them in the portable version.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: JM Casey
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 5:47 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
links not activating


Good advice. I should probably have installed the ESR fresh. I just wanted
to keep my bookmarks and wasn’t sure off-hand where firefox stored them.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: November 21, 2017 6:45 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
links not activating



You can try uninstalling the program and reinstalling it. or you can get
the portable ESR version and use that. it does everything the installed
version does, you can even set it as the default, and you won't have to
worry about any remnants from the installed program causing problems.



I use firefox Portable because I can just copy the entire program somewhere
else as a backup. then if something becomes corrupted, I can just delete
the copy I'm using and copy the backup to the same location I was running
the program from. And I can copy the program to any machine I wish.



Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: JM Casey

Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 5:08 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links
not activating



Hello everyone. Really sorry about this as it's not strictly speaking an
nVDA question, but I know Firefox has been a hot topic round these parts for
quite some time, so it doesn't seem entirely inappropriate. As I said in a
previous message, I was using FF 57 and it was working -- ok. But as other
users pointed out, it was kind of slow and weird. And as much as I'm growing
to really like nVDA, it did annoy me that I could not use it with JAWS at
all. So, I went and got Firefox ESR, as many on this list have also done,
and installed it. But now I have a weird issue, and it's one I seem to
remember coming up against with firefox before, but I can't recall for the
life of me what I had to do to correct it.

Basically, links will not activate as they normally do. I go to a site with
ctrl-l, and can maybe click on one link as I normally would, with the enter
key. Goodreads.com is an example of a site I visit frequently which now does
this. I can search for a book title and get a list of results, but then
clicking on that item appears to do absolutely nothing. The mobile facebook
site is doing the same thing, as have other sites, so I know it isn't
site-specific, but something on my end. The links *will* activate if I
select "open in new tab" from the context menu, but I don't want to have to
do this every time, obviously. My only thought is that something got changed
when I installed ESR over 57, a setting or something. This certainly wasn't
happening before yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.


Re: Submenu expantion on website

Jonathan Milam
 

Thanks very much, Adriani.  I really appreciate your help.  I tested this and it works very well as you described.  It sounds as if there is nothing the developer needs to modify on his end then.  I am fairly new with NVDA, and thus didn’t think to try this process.

 

Warmly,

Jonathan

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 12:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Submenu expantion on website

 

When you activate focus mode and pres tab and then enter, the menu will expand and you will have some additional links. For example our community contains Alumni, Staff and so on. Jaws seems not to recognize the new links. NVDA recognizes them only in focus mode but not in browse mode. I will create an issue for that.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Jonathan Milam
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. November 2017 18:00
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] Submenu expantion on website

 

Hi All,

 

When I visit:

http://help.wfu.edu

and attempt to expand the submenus for Help, explore services, WFU Community, and About Us, the menu doesn’t expand with enter or space, or even using the number pad  to left click it.  I have tested with Firefox, IE and Chrome.  However, JAWS expands them without difficulty.  Are there any ideas for what the developer can try to make these expand properly?  When expanded, the body of the web page changes and the content appears under the next heading.

 

Thanks,

Jonathan


Re: Submenu expantion on website

Adriani Botez
 

When you activate focus mode and pres tab and then enter, the menu will expand and you will have some additional links. For example our community contains Alumni, Staff and so on. Jaws seems not to recognize the new links. NVDA recognizes them only in focus mode but not in browse mode. I will create an issue for that.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Jonathan Milam
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. November 2017 18:00
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] Submenu expantion on website

 

Hi All,

 

When I visit:

http://help.wfu.edu

and attempt to expand the submenus for Help, explore services, WFU Community, and About Us, the menu doesn’t expand with enter or space, or even using the number pad  to left click it.  I have tested with Firefox, IE and Chrome.  However, JAWS expands them without difficulty.  Are there any ideas for what the developer can try to make these expand properly?  When expanded, the body of the web page changes and the content appears under the next heading.

 

Thanks,

Jonathan


Re: Submenu expantion on website

Gene
 

I don't know why you see things I don't see.  I see no menus.  Are you logged on somehow or is the site different in some way depending on some sort of conditions such as membership?
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Submenu expantion on website

Can you contact the developer and ask them to test the site wiht nvda and give the steps to reproduce? If you did contact the dev what  did they say?

On Nov 22, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:

Hi All,


 

When I visit:

http://help.wfu.edu

and attempt to expand the submenus for Help, explore services, WFU Community, and About Us, the menu doesn’t expand with enter or space, or even using the number pad  to left click it.  I have tested with Firefox, IE and Chrome.  However, JAWS expands them without difficulty.  Are there any ideas for what the developer can try to make these expand properly?  When expanded, the body of the web page changes and the content appears under the next heading.


 

Thanks,

Jonathan



Re: Submenu expantion on website

Adriani Botez
 

I can reproduce it with NVDA 2017.3 on windows 10 and firefox , google crome, IE and Edge. It seems that NVDA does not recognize them as usual submenus. However, it works when you activate focus mode by pressing NVDA + space, then navigate with tab to the link you want to expand and press enter to expand it.

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] Im Auftrag von Jonathan Milam
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. November 2017 18:00
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: [nvda] Submenu expantion on website

 

Hi All,

 

When I visit:

http://help.wfu.edu

and attempt to expand the submenus for Help, explore services, WFU Community, and About Us, the menu doesn’t expand with enter or space, or even using the number pad  to left click it.  I have tested with Firefox, IE and Chrome.  However, JAWS expands them without difficulty.  Are there any ideas for what the developer can try to make these expand properly?  When expanded, the body of the web page changes and the content appears under the next heading.

 

Thanks,

Jonathan


Re: Submenu expantion on website

Sarah k Alawami
 

Can you contact the developer and ask them to test the site wiht nvda and give the steps to reproduce? If you did contact the dev what  did they say?

On Nov 22, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Jonathan Milam <milamj@...> wrote:

Hi All,

 

When I visit:

http://help.wfu.edu

and attempt to expand the submenus for Help, explore services, WFU Community, and About Us, the menu doesn’t expand with enter or space, or even using the number pad  to left click it.  I have tested with Firefox, IE and Chrome.  However, JAWS expands them without difficulty.  Are there any ideas for what the developer can try to make these expand properly?  When expanded, the body of the web page changes and the content appears under the next heading.

 

Thanks,

Jonathan



Submenu expantion on website

Jonathan Milam
 

Hi All,

 

When I visit:

http://help.wfu.edu

and attempt to expand the submenus for Help, explore services, WFU Community, and About Us, the menu doesn’t expand with enter or space, or even using the number pad  to left click it.  I have tested with Firefox, IE and Chrome.  However, JAWS expands them without difficulty.  Are there any ideas for what the developer can try to make these expand properly?  When expanded, the body of the web page changes and the content appears under the next heading.

 

Thanks,

Jonathan


Re: How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome

Gene
 

There are cases in which sound is useful.  But new computer users will be better ones and more competent if they are taught without sound first or at least, with sound accompanying the speech, if that combination is an option.  And there are times when using sounds as the default is a really bad idea as in the change from browse to forms mode.  You need to hear those words so the names of the modes are reinforced for learning.  If someone has a problem they are trying to have solved and is describing it, they should know proper terminology.  A default sound doesn't expose them to the words adequately, in my opinion.  Also, the student, concentrating on other far more important things, such as learning efficient web page navigation and how to navigate a form and not miss information, should not also have to try to remember which of two sounds means what. 
 
Defaults should be set for new or inexperienced users.  For example, Screen layout is a setting for more advanced users.  Displaying links one on a line should be the default. 
 
and one more note regarding how sounds may impede learning, of course, having a sound when a download has finished is convenient.  But one way to teach students the ways and benefits of doing various things such as switching from one opened window in a program to another or from one tab to another, however it is displayed, is to have the student open the library and see the actual download information, estimated time and speed.  Just telling the student, wait for the sound, is not good teaching.  If the sound is already an automatic part of the function of the browser, that's one thing.  It's better, in my opinion, to have the student check manually from time to time when becoming more comfortable with switching windows or tabs and then closing one tab or window and leaving another opened in the same program. 
 
And in the case of Internet Explorer, where download progress is displayed as information you look at using screen review or object navigation, that is an excellent opportunity to teach or reinforce those skills.  Having a download sound may cause some instructors not to teach this as much or as well in this context.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 4:53 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome

If you get used to which sound means what, like the one when firefox pops up
an alert, say about redirection, and sometimes nvda seems not to read the
message, you can key blindly and get to where you are going.
 Likewise when you do not have the download window open you can here when
its completed.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome


If you just hear a sound, all that tells you is that something changed
somewhere and that you should look for it.  It doesn't tell you what to look
for in terms of structure, a frame, a new tab, a new window, all you know is
that something changed.  Or, if the sound could be specialized enough to
tell you that something changed on the page and you know that it is on the
same page, that doesn't tell you what you want to look for.  I consider it
much more important that the screen-reader interrupt what it is doing and
read what has changed on the screen.  Then, regardless of what kind of
structure it is, the person can find it by using the screen-reader find or
can experiment by other methods.  Messages a browser displays are handled in
this way, such as a message that asks you if you want to remember a password
or other browser messages such as uhnresponsive script messages.  A sound
isn't played.

Gene


From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome


Is this not the job of the browser either through sound or via some kind of
focus change event?
 This is precisely why I like sounds for Firefox.
 Brian

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Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome


But a related question is how to know something has come up.  It appears
from your comment that you get no indication that this has occurred.  I
don't know if this is the same structure on different web pages.  If you had
an indication that something had come up and if that something were read
automatically, you could move to it as you would anything on a page, with
the find command, or if it contains a form using various quick navigation
commands, etc.  But it appears the most important question is whether and
how you get notices of such occurrences.  If NVDA doesn't give any, this is
something that should be considered.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Crabtree
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 8:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How to interact with a pop-up window in Chrome


The pop-up is in the same tab as the original web page, not a new tab. The
original web page is shaded and the pop-up sits centrally.

The pop-up is triggered when trying to view a video, which is available only
to those with paid accounts.

I have a paid account and would expect the fact that I was already signed in
to stop the pop-up showing, but they seem to want to verify my eligibility.

However, we shouldn't focus too much on Racing UK, as a number of other
sites display similar pop-ups when you try to do something with your account
or where they feel you should be asked something - for instance, about
saving settings or user preferences.

I just wondered if someone had a simple means of focussing on a pop-up,
rather than me having to ask a sighted person if there is an unusual word on
it, so I can search on that.