Date   

Re: The DOM Debate

Brian's Mail list account
 

I do not propose I am a teacher, but recently after a lot of visits from an Online today supposedly trained person from RNIB I found they had not even covered the basics of the web yet.
She is a smart cookie so something stinks in the world of so called trainers I feel. I'm sure he was a nice enough person but really, they should be encouraging people to play with it having got the basics, not saying as I gather he did, that is much too complicated for you now.
Blaugh!
I was no taught I picked it all up so would not consider myself a trainer, but sometimes I do wonder if these people got their qualifications from a corn flake packet.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people. One of them when asked if
she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will
learn it together." That speaks volumes.



On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more
demanding users, those are important things to learn. But in this
case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor
Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get. I wonder
how much traning material explains things such as I describe. I don't
know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material
because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about
using the Internet.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Canazzi <mailto:aa2vm@...>
*Sent:* Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,


Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's
quick navigation keys and other features. This allows the
reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.



On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts
problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very
easily. We, blind people, see a lot of links moving down from the
top of the page. A sighted person sees these running down the left
side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the
links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the
page, moving from left to right on the page. Then a blind user sees
a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page. A sighted
person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom. A sighted
person sees links running down the left side, main content to the
right of those links, and on the right another block of links running
down the page in a column.
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off. then do a screen-reader search
for the word contact from the top of the page. Repeat the search to
see how many contact links there are. The one a sighted person
describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see
as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there
shouldn't be any more. If there is only one, there is, of course, no
problem. When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search
again, you will get an error message. If you dismiss the error
message, you will still be on the link. You won't lose your place.
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Christopher-Mark Gilland <mailto:clgilland07@...>
*Sent:* Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair
enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575

----- Original Message -----
*From:* Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@...>
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Sent:* Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by
myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to
hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of
the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is
being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I
have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only
for link bars like you have described or for forms with many
elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right
arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by
button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends
unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at
the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@... <mailto:clgilland07@...>>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me
make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not
balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And
here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I
fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that
everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is
therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil
mind, and observe this question from all angles before making
your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow
to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on
their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you
give credit back to me.


First off, what is DOM?

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is
one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers
obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a
website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen
readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of
the content on the screen.


So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact
workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is
this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the
assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web
browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in
completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because
essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is
allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered.
There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some
huge setbacks.


Beauty and the Beast

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly
obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow
assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web
content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and
sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me
assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.


Here's a practical example of DOM.

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website
in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet
Explorer, Chrome, etc.
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear
as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These
tabs include the following:

* Home
* About Us
* Blog
* Shop
* Support
* Contact Us

To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and
reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see.
Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links
visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across
the top of the web page.
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us


Here's another example.

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your
first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how
DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this
line by line.
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.


First example without DOM

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my
message is maximized before doing so.
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support,
Link Contact Us.


Second example without DOM

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.


The difference

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was
on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line,
as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught
this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain
english.
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which
are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that
they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of
the page.
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better
word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is
on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is
seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these
links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are
actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the
screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks
on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field
labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side
of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these
field labels is the data value.
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say,
"Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a
line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but
the over all point is, there will be a second column to the
immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I
would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some
of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not
including it here.
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is
formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really
make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below?
No. It doesn't.
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the
edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly
as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the
immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that
just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It
definitely should to most people.
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked
one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to
me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross!
Maybe I am more a visual learner, but even if I wasn't,
this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM
is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.


Helping the sighted to guide you

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but
let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a
customer service representative. They tell you to click the
contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page.
This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs
on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration!
I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which
has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have
another contact link within the actual main body's content. The
difference however is, in this second link, though named
identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link
doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives
a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address.
Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated
on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however
still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more
times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar
for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page,
or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might
even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me,
though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the
only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for
example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for
this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted
scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form,
if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be
hit and miss.
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe
both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you
have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far
right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other
links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to
the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?


The bottom line

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something
anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a
screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find
turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd
even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy
at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I
would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're
not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however
if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will
really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great
in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a
mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with
DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period.
You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also
realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power
to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK,
it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.


What are your thoughts?

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
Chris.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Tyler Wood
 

Keep in mind AMD has just released their ryzen mobile processors, so that should be interesting. Similar to Intel, it will be Ryzen 3 = intel i3, ryzen 5 = intel i5, ryzen 7 = intel i7.

In these modern days, hard drives truly limit the speed of a computer. If you can afford it, even if it takes a little longer to save up, go for something with a solid state drive. You’ll never go back again. Even a cheap windows tablet with a 64 gb ssd is going to beat the socks off of that huge i5 with a 1 tb spinning hard drives in booting up, general snappyness around windows. Web browsing not so much but even so the solid state drive is what makes or breaks a computer and is why you can get by with a core i3 or equal from AMD.

Sean has a good point about soundcards these days, too. And even with headphones on it can still be painful with speech – so try and play with them in the store using narrator.

 

 

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: December 1, 2017 4:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

Is there a n equivelance chart somewhere for what Intel and AMD systems are

roughly the same as each other?

Brian

 

bglists@...

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----- Original Message -----

From: "Don H" <lmddh50@...>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:23 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

 

>I think it is important to get at least a Intel I3 processor or its AMD

>equal.  If you can't afford a higher Intel processor you will find fast AMD

>processors cheaper and just as good as Intel.

> On 11/30/2017 12:16 PM, Governor staten wrote:

>> One thing is for sure. You need at least 6 or 8 gb of ram. Netbooks no

>> longer cut it, at all. You could possibly find some refurbished computers

>> on Amazon.

>> 

>> 

>> I have an Asus netbook with 4 gb of ram (not expansible), 500 gb hard

>> drive, 2.16 ghz dual-core Intel Celeron processor. Graphics and audio are

>> built-in. I need to get a new computer, as well. I'm interested in this

>> discussion for that reason.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> 

>> 

>> On 11/30/2017 11:26 AM, Deborah Armstrong wrote:

>>> ** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***

>>> As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more

>>> difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think,

>>> so please post your thoughts.

>>> It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer, because

>>> I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of laptops,

>>> you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems, create art or

>>> engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those who just surf

>>> the web, read email and do some light word processing, reviewers

>>> maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just fine. In fact,

>>> reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews of inexpensive

>>> Windows laptops for just that reason.

>>> In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I

>>> could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877 was

>>> a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in that

>>> family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom. It had a reasonable fast 500GB

>>> hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful at running

>>> multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and Outlook without

>>> latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing. Compared to the

>>> computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the reviewers said, it

>>> didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy tasks at home.

>>> What's changed today might best be covered in this post:

>>> https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/

>>> which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to

>>> work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow, despite

>>> my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run unnecessary

>>> background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully refreshed.

>>> I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but that

>>> the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's foundation. It

>>> needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to handle the new,

>>> dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably on slower

>>> processors.

>>> But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still

>>> fairly fast. For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the

>>> laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at

>>> work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my laptop

>>> but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour to convert

>>> on my desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on the laptop.

>>> Handbrake is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.

>>> But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I

>>> expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't --

>>> seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself

>>> together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page

>>> refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email in

>>> Thunderbird.

>>> The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows 10,

>>> but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something read

>>> back to me.

>>> My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even

>>> though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my

>>> job.

>>> So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things I

>>> do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd buy

>>> something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM. Clearly

>>> that would result in a machine that's even slower than my existing

>>> laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!

>>> I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending a

>>> fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I use a

>>> screen reader.

>>> What do others think?

>>> --Debee

>> 

>

>

 

 

 

 


Re: The DOM Debate

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.



On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,


Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.



On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: The DOM Debate

Brian's Mail list account
 

It gets very vcomplex with landmarks frames and whatever Yahoo are up to which seems to be mostly chaos....
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher-Mark Gilland" <clgilland07@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Gene, the problem is, the way you describe the layout of a page certainly might make sense, and it may even be mostly standard, but there are those exceptions, trust me.

Enough said.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily. We, blind people, see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page. A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page. Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page. A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom. A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off. then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page. Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are. The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more. If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem. When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message. If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link. You won't lose your place.

You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Adriani,

You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message -----
From: Adriani Botez
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hello,


I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.


Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:


For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

First off, what is DOM?

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

Beauty and the Beast

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.

Here's a practical example of DOM.

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.

On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:

a.. Home
b.. About Us
c.. Blog
d.. Shop
e.. Support
f.. Contact Us

To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us

Here's another example.

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.

First example without DOM

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.

Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.

Second example without DOM

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

The difference

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.

Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?

The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.

We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.

Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

Helping the sighted to guide you

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?

The bottom line

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

What are your thoughts?

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

Chris.


Re: The DOM Debate

Brian's Mail list account
 

In a way I'm in a good place cos I saw web pages before I lost all my sight. However it should not really matter as long as the site does not say stuff like click the blue triangle near the top right corner for the information, and then assign a tag for said triangle as some cryptic link identifier instead of blue triangle 1 or whatever.

Half the problems I get from people is that they have been told about web layout but it means nothing whatsoever in a world where there is just up and down most of the time and stuff on the right is blow stuff on the left.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn. But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get. I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe. I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,




Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features. This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.






On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily. We, blind people, see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page. A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page. Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page. A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom. A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off. then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page. Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are. The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more. If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem. When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message. If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link. You won't lose your place.

You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Adriani,

You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message -----
From: Adriani Botez
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hello,


I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.


Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:


For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

First off, what is DOM?

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

Beauty and the Beast

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.

Here's a practical example of DOM.

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.

On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:

a.. Home
b.. About Us
c.. Blog
d.. Shop
e.. Support
f.. Contact Us

To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us

Here's another example.

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.

First example without DOM

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.

Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.

Second example without DOM

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

The difference

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.

Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?

The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.

We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.

Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

Helping the sighted to guide you

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?

The bottom line

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

What are your thoughts?

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

Brian's Mail list account
 

How peculiar. The thread will live as long as you do I suspect!
I was befuzzled as I could not duplicate any of it. Which just goes to show that the first move should always to be to disable the add ons.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating


Didn’t realise this thread was still alive. In anyone cared, I solved the issue; the problem was the webvisum firefox extension. After I disabled most of its features, web pages started loading correctly.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 1, 2017 6:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating



I never checked. I know you love old insecure programs but why, would anyone use old versions of ESR Firefox? They are just as vulnerable and insecure as old regular versions of the browser. If you are going to use an old insecure version of Firefox ESR, why not just do the simple thing and keep using version 56 of the regular version of Firefox? The whole point of using the ESR version is to have a program that works properly and is still receiving security updates. What sense does it make to use old versions of the program when there are so many old and insecure regular versions of Firefox that work properly? That's going the long way around to achieve the same end, an old, insecure, vulnerable browser.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: zahra <mailto:nasrinkhaksar3@...>

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 2:54 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating



hi gene.
thanks extremely for explaning about advantages of portable firefox versions.
does the website keep the download link for all old version of firefox
like its owner mozilla?
i mean does it have all versions of firefox since the first portable version?
or it only keeps the latest versions and removed old ones?
God bless you for helping you as always.

On 11/22/17, JM Casey <crystallogic@...> wrote:
Hi Brian.

The links are all still there, and screen-reader working perfectly. They
will activate in a new tab or window if I use the context menu options on
the links. Pressing enter does not a thing, though. However, I know that the
screen-reader (nvda, and jaws too in fact) are aware of the links. I
hesitated to post this at all because I'm quite sure it's not really a
screen-reader issue.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: November 22, 2017 6:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
links not activating

And are you saying this affects nvda and other screenreaders?


After all if a link works and then does not work that would suggest that the
page you are reading is not actually in focus for the reader or has
something transparent over it. I assume toggling the focus and browse mode
still work and that single letter nav ie k will still work? If you cursor
along a line do you hear the word link at any point and will it then
operate?

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:08 PM
Subject: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links
not activating


Hello everyone. Really sorry about this as it's not strictly speaking an
nVDA question, but I know Firefox has been a hot topic round these parts for
quite some time, so it doesn't seem entirely inappropriate. As I said in a
previous message, I was using FF 57 and it was working -- ok. But as other
users pointed out, it was kind of slow and weird. And as much as I'm growing
to really like nVDA, it did annoy me that I could not use it with JAWS at
all. So, I went and got Firefox ESR, as many on this list have also done,
and installed it. But now I have a weird issue, and it's one I seem to
remember coming up against with firefox before, but I can't recall for the
life of me what I had to do to correct it.

Basically, links will not activate as they normally do. I go to a site with
ctrl-l, and can maybe click on one link as I normally would, with the enter
key. Goodreads.com is an example of a site I visit frequently which now does
this. I can search for a book title and get a list of results, but then
clicking on that item appears to do absolutely nothing. The mobile facebook
site is doing the same thing, as have other sites, so I know it isn't
site-specific, but something on my end. The links *will* activate if I
select "open in new tab" from the context menu, but I don't want to have to
do this every time, obviously. My only thought is that something got changed
when I installed ESR over 57, a setting or something. This certainly wasn't
happening before yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.













--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: After unistall Office 2016 with Microsoft Removal Tool nvda don't work fine

Brian's Mail list account
 

There was an article published on this a few weeks ago, anyone got a link?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alessandro Albano via Groups.Io" <sharkboy_torino@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] After unistall Office 2016 with Microsoft Removal Tool
nvda don't work fine


Hi,
on my Notebook the restore point fail to recover the system, all the restore
point avaiable.
I do not know the dll restore procedure, i dont know the dll to record.


Re: Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

JM Casey <crystallogic@...>
 

Didn’t realise this thread was still alive. In anyone cared, I solved the issue; the problem was the webvisum firefox extension. After I disabled most of its features, web pages  started loading correctly.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 1, 2017 6:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

 

I never checked.  I know you love old insecure programs but why, would anyone use old versions of ESR Firefox?  They are just as vulnerable and insecure as old regular versions of the browser.  If you are going to use an old insecure version of Firefox ESR, why not just do the simple thing and keep using version 56 of the regular version of Firefox? The whole point of using the ESR version is to have a program that works properly and is still receiving security updates.  What sense does it make to use old versions of the program when there are so many old and insecure regular versions of Firefox that work properly?  That's going the long way around to achieve the same end, an old, insecure, vulnerable browser. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: zahra

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 2:54 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

 

hi gene.
thanks extremely for explaning about advantages of portable firefox versions.
does the website keep the download link for all old version of firefox
like its owner mozilla?
i mean does it have all versions of firefox since the first portable version?
or it only keeps the latest versions and removed old ones?
God bless you for helping you as always.

On 11/22/17, JM Casey <crystallogic@...> wrote:
> Hi Brian.
>
> The links are all still there, and screen-reader working perfectly. They
> will activate in a new tab or window if I use the context menu options on
> the links. Pressing enter does not a thing, though. However, I know that the
> screen-reader (nvda, and jaws too in fact) are aware of the links. I
> hesitated to post this at all because I'm quite sure it's not really a
> screen-reader issue.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
> Mail list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: November 22, 2017 6:00 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
> links not activating
>
> And are you saying this affects nvda and other screenreaders?
>
>
> After all if a link works and then does not work that would suggest that the
> page you are reading is not actually in focus for the reader or has
> something transparent over it. I assume toggling the focus and browse mode
> still  work and that single letter nav ie k will still work? If you cursor
> along a line do you hear the word link at any point and will it then
> operate?
>
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:08 PM
> Subject: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links
> not activating
>
>
> Hello everyone. Really sorry about this as it's not strictly speaking an
> nVDA question, but I know Firefox has been a hot topic round these parts for
> quite some time, so it doesn't seem entirely inappropriate. As I said in a
> previous message, I was using FF 57 and it was working -- ok. But as other
> users pointed out, it was kind of slow and weird. And as much as I'm growing
> to really like nVDA, it did annoy me that I could not use it with JAWS at
> all. So, I went and got Firefox ESR, as many on this list have also done,
> and installed it. But now I have a weird issue, and it's one I seem to
> remember coming up against with firefox before, but I can't recall for the
> life of me what I had to do to correct it.
>
> Basically, links will not activate as they normally do. I go to a site with
> ctrl-l, and can maybe click on one link as I normally would, with the enter
> key. Goodreads.com is an example of a site I visit frequently which now does
> this. I can search for a book title and get a list of results, but then
> clicking on that item appears to do absolutely nothing. The mobile facebook
> site is doing the same thing, as have other sites, so I know it isn't
> site-specific, but something on my end. The links *will* activate if I
> select "open in new tab" from the context menu, but I don't want to have to
> do this every time, obviously. My only thought is that something got changed
> when I installed ESR over 57, a setting or something. This certainly wasn't
> happening before yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Notepad++, new VS (Visual Studio) Code Text Editor, and NVDA Questions

Walker, Michael E
 

Hi, have you had any luck with optimizing the new Microsoft VS Code editor to work with NVDA? Also, in Notepad++ and VS Code, how effective have you found it, to collapse, hide, or fold unnecessary lines of code versus just seeing every line? Thank you.


Re: The DOM Debate

Gene
 

I can't comment on that because you provide no description or examples, nor any explanation of how seeing the page not reorganized would help deal with the exceptions.  You are saying that my explanation isn't complete because of exceptions but you give no way to evaluate your contention.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Gene, the problem is, the way you describe the layout of a page certainly might make sense, and it may even be mostly standard, but there are those exceptions, trust me.
 
Enough said.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.


Re: The DOM Debate

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 


I absolutely know how to use quick navigation. I've been doing this since the first implementation of the concept back in, what would that have been, JAWS 4? Then of corse the concept carried over into NVDA, as well as other screen readers.
 
I'm not dismissing what you're saying, as much as I'm simply saying that these navigation keystrokes only give you about 85% of the screen layout. It's certainly very close, don't get me wrong, but there may be times you need to dive deeper.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,


Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.



On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: The DOM Debate

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 


Gene, the problem is, the way you describe the layout of a page certainly might make sense, and it may even be mostly standard, but there are those exceptions, trust me.
 
Enough said.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.


Re: The DOM Debate

Gene
 

Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,


Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.



On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: The DOM Debate

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,


Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.



On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: How to access Firefox notifications with NVDA

Adriani Botez
 

This is probably a web dialog. Not a notification. If you install the last release candidate RC 3 of NVDA, then you can find web dialogs by pressing o.

Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 15:00 schrieb Sally Kiebdaj <fiddle.pup@...>:

Is there a hotkey for the alerts about logging into a wifi network? I am currently in a building where the wifi needs a sign in after 10 minutes of inactivity and I can't figure out how to get to that sign in page quickly and easily. For now, I am opening a new window in firefox and tabbing around until I find the "open login page" option.


There must be a better way to do this.....

Thanks!

Sally


On 11/30/2017 11:29 AM, Gene wrote:
Do you mean stop redirection notices?  Alt a is announced as the allow command at the end of the announcement.  If you want to turn off the notification completely, I'll write instructions in another message. 
 
To tell Firefox not to offer to remember passwords, do the following.
New main steps start on new lines:
Alt t then o to open options. 
After waiting a moment, tab once.  You are now in a list of categories.
Start down arrowing until you get to security.
If down arrowing stops moving you before you get there, up arrow once then continue down arrowing.
Once you get to security, start tabbing until you get to a checkbox that says something like remember logins.  Uncheck it with the space bar.  You won't be asked any longer.
There is no ok button in this dialog-like structure.  Settings take immediate effect.  This is a web page in the browser and since you are on a web page that mimics a dialog, do whatever you want to do that you would do while on a web page after you change the setting.  That is, go to another page by using a book mark, close the browser, etc.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:59 AM
Subject: [nvda] How to access Firefox notifications with NVDA

I am using the extended service release of Firefox on windows 10 machine with the stable release of NVDA. Sometimes Firefox will put up notices, such as when it offers to remember passwords or when it informs you that has blocked a redirection from the site. How can I access these in order to either tell it I don’t want it to save a password or that I do wanted to allow a redirection?
Mary


Sent from my iPhone




Re: How to access Firefox notifications with NVDA

Sally Kiebdaj
 

Is there a hotkey for the alerts about logging into a wifi network? I am currently in a building where the wifi needs a sign in after 10 minutes of inactivity and I can't figure out how to get to that sign in page quickly and easily. For now, I am opening a new window in firefox and tabbing around until I find the "open login page" option.


There must be a better way to do this.....

Thanks!

Sally


On 11/30/2017 11:29 AM, Gene wrote:
Do you mean stop redirection notices?  Alt a is announced as the allow command at the end of the announcement.  If you want to turn off the notification completely, I'll write instructions in another message. 
 
To tell Firefox not to offer to remember passwords, do the following.
New main steps start on new lines:
Alt t then o to open options. 
After waiting a moment, tab once.  You are now in a list of categories.
Start down arrowing until you get to security.
If down arrowing stops moving you before you get there, up arrow once then continue down arrowing.
Once you get to security, start tabbing until you get to a checkbox that says something like remember logins.  Uncheck it with the space bar.  You won't be asked any longer.
There is no ok button in this dialog-like structure.  Settings take immediate effect.  This is a web page in the browser and since you are on a web page that mimics a dialog, do whatever you want to do that you would do while on a web page after you change the setting.  That is, go to another page by using a book mark, close the browser, etc.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 9:59 AM
Subject: [nvda] How to access Firefox notifications with NVDA

I am using the extended service release of Firefox on windows 10 machine with the stable release of NVDA. Sometimes Firefox will put up notices, such as when it offers to remember passwords or when it informs you that has blocked a redirection from the site. How can I access these in order to either tell it I don’t want it to save a password or that I do wanted to allow a redirection?
Mary


Sent from my iPhone




Re: The DOM Debate

Gene
 

If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Brian's Mail list account
 

Hang on though, some games have speech in them and that is not clipped or faded. Maybe a kind of bias of the channel is what is needed on some sound cards. To me, being a purist, I think any kind of manipulation of sound that affects certain sounds over others is a very bad idea, its like the way pop radio uses brick wall limiting and then we wonder why the young people do not know what good sound is like.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


Sadly its become clear a couple things.

Laptop speakers have gotten smaller and smaller.

To the point where without some sort of effect software which can be sadly installed over the drivers and not uninstalled even without drivers, to make the sound better.

This can really mangle speech because its a bit to short for effects to work right.

Speech is not designed for effects at the best of times.

Now you play music on those cards or something and they are coool.

Try to play the things without sound you will find the speakers really bad, its what I found my aunt's hp doing.

I mostly work in a quiet environment else I'd need effects to.

On the plus side if you disable effects windows spacial audio should bring sound up to what it should sort of be without much issues as long as you are on those speakers.

The issues don't have any effect on headphones or in some cases external speakers.

Most sound cards are realtech so the latest generic drivers do work in a more stable fashion.

However fact is the sound cards control panels really suck.

Maybe in gaming laptops you could get away with it.

In the old days laptops had full speakers not little pinholes.

So you didn't need all the effects, sadly with most of the hd cards including off the shelf usb ones they all suck to some degree.

Now some are really bad with everything but if you run music or a game through them they rock speech, well it depends.

Creative cards are choppy but not to bad unless you have effects on.

Hp are not to bad with effects at default values.

Creative if you can program them just right can sound really good if you do it just right.

But not everything is that good, del's wavemix and toshiba's srs premium are the most suckfull thing I have used.

Dts effects at default are quite good for what they are though.

You do get slite fade in of speech but it actually makes speech improve a bit double that with spacial audio and drop the volume a little even better.





On 1/12/2017 10:21 a.m., Nikos Demetriou via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi.
We discussed this before but since we are talking about laptops I wanted to
express my consirns again.

I don't know what happens with the soundcards on laptops these days, or if
it is just driver issues but for a lot of models nvda doesnt work well with
them.
And I am talking about espeak which is light weight. I don't want to
imagine what is going to happen with hi-q tts.

On several laptops, I heard nvda not being able to incorborate.
For example the beginning or ending of sentences might be cut, or when
doing things quickly such as typing, you hear some clicks between the
letters as you type.
The problem could be fixed, if we disable audio enhunsments. The problem is
that some manufacturers disable this option so we get stuck.
Another possible fix is to disable the manufacturer audio driver and
install the generic audio driver from microsoft, but this way we are
loozing some of the quality of the sound the laptop can provide such as the
bass or some loudness of the audio.

I am very disapointed with the laptops these days because a laptop might
have the best specs, but we don't really know if it has got a nice
soundcard with good audio drivers unless if we buy it and play with it but
it might be too late to change it if we find a problem.
Good luck finding a new laptop.
I hope you find a good one.
Lenovo laptops seam to have the most sound issues with nvda but i have seen
hp and toshiba laptops to act a bit strange as well sometimes.

I don't know about del. One of my friends recently got one and she is happy
so far.
Nikos

On 30 November 2017 at 20:33, Rui Fontes <rui.fontes@...> wrote:

Hello!


1 - Don't choose anything else than SSD devices. They are much more fast
than any other!


2 - For processor, it depends a lot when you want to replace it and how
much you want to spend...


If you want to spend only a few hundresd dollars, maximum 400 USD, you and
replace it in 2a 3 years, you are well with a processor like Intel(R)
Core(TM) m3-7Y30 CPU, like my hybrid laptop have along with 4Gb of RAM.
# of Cores
2
# of Threads
4
Processor Base Frequency
1.00 GHz
Max Turbo Frequency
2.60 GHz
Cache
4 MB SmartCache

3 - If you don't want to change laptop so soon, you must choose a better
processor, like I3 or I5, at least 8Gb of RAM and nothing else than a SSD
device!

Regards,

Rui



Às 17:22 de 30/11/2017, Tyler Wood escreveu:

This summarizes exactly how I feel today.

I shouldn’t need a crazy fast machine. However, when I’m on a machine with
a mechanical hard drive or slower processor, I can tell the difference the
second I start using it. It still functions, but my general assumptions get
in the way. I get impatient. Come on, move already!

This is why I went overboard in my new desktop, which should arrive in
December. Dell xps 8930 with a core i7 processor. I may not need it, but
with the advancements in computer technology and how screen readers are,
instead of becoming lighter on processor usage, are seemingly more
dependant on them, I figure I should get as much power as I can while I
can. My thoughts are a core i3 processor, 8 gb of ram and a decent solid
state drive should get you where you want to go. The problem is when you
want more than a 128 gb drive. You have to pay for the i5 or i7 processor,
thus making the machine even more expensive. Also, in 5 years, that i3 may
be ancient history. It seems things are taking off at breakneck speed
rather than slowing down as far as advancing goes. Soon all applications
are going to be multithreaded if they’re not already and you want as many
threads as you can squeeze out of it in the future. Dual core with
hyperthreading just isn’t going to cut it in even 4 years – and if it does,
it’s going to be on the edge of it. Maybe this is just my paranoia talking,
but you never know.





*From: *Deborah Armstrong <debee@...>
*Sent: *November 30, 2017 10:26 AM
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject: *[nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before



** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***



As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more
difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think, so
please post your thoughts.



It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer, because I
wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of laptops,
you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems, create art or
engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those who just surf the
web, read email and do some light word processing, reviewers maintain that
a slower and cheaper laptop will work just fine. In fact, reviews of
chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews of inexpensive Windows laptops
for just that reason.



In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I could
buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877 was a dual
core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in that family, but it
wasn't a much slower Atom. It had a reasonable fast 500GB hard drive. I
added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful at running multiple tasks
efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and Outlook without latency and of
course I did a lot of web surfing. Compared to the computers at work, it
was a bit slower, but like the reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I
didn't do computation-heavy tasks at home.



What's changed today might best be covered in this post:

https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-
accessibility-on-windows/



which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to
work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow, despite my
having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run unnecessary background
tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully refreshed.



I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but that
the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's foundation. It
needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to handle the new,
dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably on slower processors.



But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still
fairly fast. For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the
laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at work.
And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my laptop but not
so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour to convert on my
desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on the laptop. Handbrake
is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.



But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I expect
to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't -- seems like I
am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself together and find
the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page refresh, or the next column
in the spreadsheet, or read my next email in Thunderbird.



The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows 10,
but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something read back
to me.



My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even
though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my job.



So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things I
do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd buy
something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM. Clearly that
would result in a machine that's even slower than my existing laptop. Plus,
it would have a quarter of the storage!



I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending a
fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I use a
screen reader.



What do others think?



--Debee








Re: After unistall Office 2016 with Microsoft Removal Tool nvda don't work fine

Alessandro Albano
 

Hi,
on my Notebook the restore point fail to recover the system, all the restore point avaiable.
I do not know the dll restore procedure, i dont know the dll to record.


Re: The DOM Debate

Brian's Mail list account
 

How does it save memory not doing so. The point is in nvda an off screen model is built either way and you have the choice of links etc on one line or not, You also have single key navigation which in your example should work the same either way if you are looking for say edit fields in a form or links to things. The point is that if I were designing a web page for us, as you say the contact us link would be to a sub index also containing the link to the form. I'd also not disable going back as some sites do as in this case unless you are using tabs for pages getting back if you do key a wrong link is not easy to do.

Do I want things to sound like they look?
Well that very much depends on the design. So many forms use tabular organisation then come out and use other ways to put the content of description fields for edit boxes. If I could always force edit boxes to be under their descriptors I'd jump at the chance as otherwise I'd never know which checkbox or whatever went with which choice would I?


So really, I find that often although its good to have a visual image so to speak of what was going on on a site, often you need to think of a web page differently for accessing its silly.
Also those blind from the word go, will no doubt have their own way to mentally arrange things completely different to the sighted. This is why I also get very annoyed at pages where any list of links or whatever are not logical. It may look logical but whoever designed it did not take that logic to the order we would encounter using single key navigation. It can take an age cursoring around a page in the sighted way to find the true layout, and who can remember such a trip in detail? One has to make it simple. Many web designers need to realise the problem of us having no overview as the sighted do when they design pages. I'd much prefer less cluttered pages and have a simple theme and a hierarchical set up where its like a book with indexing myself.
Brian

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Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher-Mark Gilland" <clgilland07@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:20 AM
Subject: [nvda] The DOM Debate


For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

First off, what is DOM?

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

Beauty and the Beast

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.

Here's a practical example of DOM.

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.

On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:

a.. Home
b.. About Us
c.. Blog
d.. Shop
e.. Support
f.. Contact Us

To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us

Here's another example.

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.

First example without DOM

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.

Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.

Second example without DOM

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

The difference

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.

Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?

The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.

We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.

Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

Helping the sighted to guide you

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?

The bottom line

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

What are your thoughts?

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

Chris.