Date   

Re: doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Adriani Botez
 

A fraction is usually displayed vertically unless you use LateX. As I said, the braille display is the best way. Put your finger on a cell and with the other hand press up and down arrow. You will know that numbers are perfectly lined up if they pop up in the same cell.


If you don‘t have a braille display, then you have to check with the right and left arrow on every line if numbers are properly under each other. But the problem is significant if there are blank lines in the expression like in linear equation systems because the cursor jumps at the beginning of the line and thus you loose your position.
.

Best
Adriani

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 20:31 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

Hi,

No,

I have to present some of the problems vertically.

 

Is there a good way to do this?

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Adriani Botez
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Do you mean in fraction for example?

 

The best way is to check it with your braille wave. The numbers should pop up in the same braille cell.

 

Otherwise it is not simple at all.

 

Best

Adriani.

 

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 01.12.2017 um 20:18 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

Hi,

I’m trying to do some math.

I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.

 

What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?

 

Thanks in advance,

Jessica

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

 


Re: doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Jessica D <jldail13@...>
 

Hi,

Do you put everything all the way to the left?

 

Will nvda read alignment?

 

If so, what’s the command for that?

 

Thanks,

Jessica

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rayn Darren
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Align everything to the left. Keeping in mind that the + - / or * also take a space. So for example, vertically, 5+5=10 would be

 

5

+5

10

 

You can try using underline for the bottom number so it looks like you have an equals line. I hope this makes sense and my apologies, I missed your OP.

 

H T H,

Rayn

 

-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jessica D

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 11:31 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Hi,

 

No,

 

I have to present some of the problems vertically.

 

 

 

Is there a good way to do this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

 

 

From: Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@...>

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:29 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

 

 

Do you mean in fraction for example?

 

 

 

The best way is to check it with your braille wave. The numbers should pop up in the same braille cell.

 

 

 

Otherwise it is not simple at all.

 

 

 

Best

 

Adriani.

 

 

 

 

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

 

 

Am 01.12.2017 um 20:18 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

 

        Hi,

 

        I’m trying to do some math.

 

        I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.

 

 

 

        What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?

 

 

 

        Thanks in advance,

 

        Jessica

 

 

 

 

 

        Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: changing the amount of graphics that are spoken

Sky Mundell
 

Absolutely right! And a graphics labeller too!

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Peter Beasley
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 11:20 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] changing the amount of graphics that are spoken

I think it would be good if NVDA were to have a graphics dictionary like winndoweyes has.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Ballou
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 7:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] changing the amount of graphics that are spoken

Hi Kevin,


Thanks, for bringing this up. That's something that I have wondered about for a while now myself but kept forgetting to ask. I haven't seen anything either in the Users guide or NVDA itself for controlling the amount of spoken graphic content. I was asked by a client about NVDA having a graphic dictionary and I told them that I didn't think one existed for Nvda. I'm Curious to know if there is a way to have NVDA not say graphic when it comes across certain content.


Tony

Tony


On 11/30/2017 4:56 PM, Kevin Huber wrote:
Hi:

Is there a way to change how much graphics are spoken, similar to the
punctuation levels?

Kevin Huber



Re: doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Rayn Darren <rayndarren@...>
 

Align everything to the left. Keeping in mind that the + - / or * also take a space. So for example, vertically, 5+5=10 would be

5
+5
10

You can try using underline for the bottom number so it looks like you have an equals line. I hope this makes sense and my apologies, I missed your OP.

H T H,
Rayn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jessica D
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Hi,

No,

I have to present some of the problems vertically.



Is there a good way to do this?







Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10



From: Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@...>
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016



Do you mean in fraction for example?



The best way is to check it with your braille wave. The numbers should pop up in the same braille cell.



Otherwise it is not simple at all.



Best

Adriani.





Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 01.12.2017 um 20:18 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

Hi,

I’m trying to do some math.

I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.



What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?



Thanks in advance,

Jessica





Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10


Re: doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Jessica D <jldail13@...>
 

Hi,

No,

I have to present some of the problems vertically.

 

Is there a good way to do this?

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Adriani Botez
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Do you mean in fraction for example?

 

The best way is to check it with your braille wave. The numbers should pop up in the same braille cell.

 

Otherwise it is not simple at all.

 

Best

Adriani.

 

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 01.12.2017 um 20:18 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

Hi,

I’m trying to do some math.

I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.

 

What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?

 

Thanks in advance,

Jessica

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

 


Re: doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Adriani Botez
 

Do you mean in fraction for example?

The best way is to check it with your braille wave. The numbers should pop up in the same braille cell.

Otherwise it is not simple at all.

Best
Adriani.



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 20:18 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

Hi,

I’m trying to do some math.

I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.

 

What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?

 

Thanks in advance,

Jessica

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: changing the amount of graphics that are spoken

Peter Beasley
 

I think it would be good if NVDA were to have a
graphics dictionary like winndoweyes has.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Ballou
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 7:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] changing the amount of graphics that are spoken

Hi Kevin,


Thanks, for bringing this up. That's something that I have wondered
about for a while now myself but kept forgetting to ask. I haven't seen
anything either in the Users guide or NVDA itself for controlling the
amount of spoken graphic content. I was asked by a client about NVDA
having a graphic dictionary and I told them that I didn't think one
existed for Nvda. I'm Curious to know if there is a way to have NVDA not
say graphic when it comes across certain content.


Tony

Tony


On 11/30/2017 4:56 PM, Kevin Huber wrote:
Hi:

Is there a way to change how much graphics are spoken, similar to the
punctuation levels?

Kevin Huber



doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

Jessica D <jldail13@...>
 

Hi,

I’m trying to do some math.

I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.

 

What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?

 

Thanks in advance,

Jessica

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: changing the amount of graphics that are spoken

Tony Ballou
 

Hi Kevin,


Thanks, for bringing this up.  That's something that I have wondered
about for a while now myself but kept forgetting to ask.  I haven't seen
anything either in the Users guide or NVDA itself for controlling the
amount of spoken graphic content. I was asked by a client about NVDA
having a graphic dictionary and I told them that I didn't think one
existed for Nvda. I'm Curious to know if there is a way to have NVDA not
say graphic when it comes across certain content.


Tony

Tony

On 11/30/2017 4:56 PM, Kevin Huber wrote:
Hi:

Is there a way to change how much graphics are spoken, similar to the
punctuation levels?

Kevin Huber



Re: Which version should I install?

Tony Ballou
 

Hi,

I believe you can use the current  version of NVDA which is version 17.03 without any hitches. The release candidate for version 17.04 is also available however, to keep things safe version 17.03 should suffice. 

Tony

On 11/30/2017 8:52 PM, Grant Metcalf wrote:
Greetings to all,
I am moving over to
NVDA from WindowEyes and could use advice on which version to install.
I am using a 32 bit PC running Windows 7. I have no plans to advance to a later version of Windows. I have a HIMS Braille Edge display connected to my Windows 7 PC as well as the HIMS Polaris notetaker which also could serve as a possible display.
What other information might be helpful in choosing the best version of NVDA?
 
Thanks for your help!
 
Grant Metcalf (also known as) Grandpa DOS
Phone: (650) 589-6890
California USA
 


Re: The DOM Debate

Tyler Wood
 

There is, I believe, an NVDA add on to quickly toggle screen layout on and off.

You bring up a good point here, though. So many blind people have the mindset that going up and down through links is the way to go. Nobody knows about quick navigation keys and the problem there, for me at least, is using them means I lose focus, especially on huge sites. Try using amazon, for instance. Hitting h will take me to a heading, then focus will jump above that heading and I need to hit h again to go to the very same heading. It gets repetitive quickly. Usually in those cases, hitting down arrow works a lot better and isn’t jumping your focus around all over the place.

That’s just one example. But your explanation made 100% crystal clear sense to me and I will try more sites with screen layout on.

From: Gene
Sent: December 1, 2017 10:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

I can't comment on that because you provide no description or examples, nor any explanation of how seeing the page not reorganized would help deal with the exceptions.  You are saying that my explanation isn't complete because of exceptions but you give no way to evaluate your contention.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 10:09 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Gene, the problem is, the way you describe the layout of a page certainly might make sense, and it may even be mostly standard, but there are those exceptions, trust me.

 

Enough said.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 6:44 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  

 

So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 

 

So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.

 

You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Adriani,

 

You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Hello,

 

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:

- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced

- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content

- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before

- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

 

First off, what is DOM?

 

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.

 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

 

Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

 

Beauty and the Beast

 

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.

 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.

 

On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:

 

  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us

 

To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

 

Link Home

Link About Us

Link Blog

Link Shop

Link Support

Link Contact Us

 

Here's another example.

 

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

 

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

 

First name

Edit

Last name

Edit

E-mail

Edit

Submit button

Clear form button.

 

First example without DOM

 

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.

 

Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.

 

Second example without DOM

 

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

 

First name Edit

Last name Edit

E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

 

The difference

 

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.

 

Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

 

The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?

 

The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.

 

We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

 

For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.

 

Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

 

Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

 

Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

 

Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

 

Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

 

In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?

 

The bottom line

 

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

 

Chris.

 


VBA coding with NVDA

Giles Turnbull
 

Hi all,

back in my sighted days I used to do quite a lot of Visual Basic programming, using Visual Basic itself, but also the Visual Basic for Applications part of Excel. I've not done any since losing my sight 9 years ago, because I no longer have a copy of VB, and I find the VBA editor window very fiddly to navigate.

Does anybody use VBA themselves with NVDA, and do you know of any tutorials written from a blind user's perspective?

Alternatively does anybody know of a more accessible means of coding in VBA outside the Excel editor window, and I could then paste the code back into the editor and use it in Excel?

Very grateful for any suggestions :)

Giles


Looks like we might have an rc 4

Brian's Mail list account
 

Seems that Espeak has bugs that stop it from speaking if some combinations of characters are in imogees dictionaries so they are going to pull back from this support as it makes espeak go silent when certain characters are encountered at the moment.


Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Re: The DOM Debate

Brian's Mail list account
 

I do not propose I am a teacher, but recently after a lot of visits from an Online today supposedly trained person from RNIB I found they had not even covered the basics of the web yet.
She is a smart cookie so something stinks in the world of so called trainers I feel. I'm sure he was a nice enough person but really, they should be encouraging people to play with it having got the basics, not saying as I gather he did, that is much too complicated for you now.
Blaugh!
I was no taught I picked it all up so would not consider myself a trainer, but sometimes I do wonder if these people got their qualifications from a corn flake packet.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people. One of them when asked if
she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will
learn it together." That speaks volumes.



On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more
demanding users, those are important things to learn. But in this
case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor
Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get. I wonder
how much traning material explains things such as I describe. I don't
know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material
because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about
using the Internet.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Ron Canazzi <mailto:aa2vm@...>
*Sent:* Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,


Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's
quick navigation keys and other features. This allows the
reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.



On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts
problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very
easily. We, blind people, see a lot of links moving down from the
top of the page. A sighted person sees these running down the left
side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the
links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the
page, moving from left to right on the page. Then a blind user sees
a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page. A sighted
person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom. A sighted
person sees links running down the left side, main content to the
right of those links, and on the right another block of links running
down the page in a column.
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off. then do a screen-reader search
for the word contact from the top of the page. Repeat the search to
see how many contact links there are. The one a sighted person
describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see
as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there
shouldn't be any more. If there is only one, there is, of course, no
problem. When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search
again, you will get an error message. If you dismiss the error
message, you will still be on the link. You won't lose your place.
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Christopher-Mark Gilland <mailto:clgilland07@...>
*Sent:* Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair
enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575

----- Original Message -----
*From:* Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@...>
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Sent:* Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by
myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to
hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of
the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is
being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I
have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only
for link bars like you have described or for forms with many
elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right
arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by
button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends
unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at
the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@... <mailto:clgilland07@...>>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me
make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not
balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And
here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I
fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that
everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is
therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil
mind, and observe this question from all angles before making
your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow
to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on
their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you
give credit back to me.


First off, what is DOM?

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is
one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers
obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a
website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen
readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of
the content on the screen.


So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact
workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is
this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the
assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web
browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in
completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because
essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is
allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered.
There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some
huge setbacks.


Beauty and the Beast

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly
obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow
assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web
content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and
sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me
assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.


Here's a practical example of DOM.

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website
in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet
Explorer, Chrome, etc.
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear
as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These
tabs include the following:

* Home
* About Us
* Blog
* Shop
* Support
* Contact Us

To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and
reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see.
Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links
visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across
the top of the web page.
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us


Here's another example.

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your
first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how
DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this
line by line.
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.


First example without DOM

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my
message is maximized before doing so.
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support,
Link Contact Us.


Second example without DOM

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.


The difference

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was
on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line,
as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught
this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain
english.
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which
are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that
they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of
the page.
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better
word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is
on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is
seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these
links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are
actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the
screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks
on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field
labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side
of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these
field labels is the data value.
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say,
"Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a
line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but
the over all point is, there will be a second column to the
immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I
would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some
of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not
including it here.
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is
formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really
make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below?
No. It doesn't.
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the
edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly
as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the
immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that
just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It
definitely should to most people.
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked
one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to
me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross!
Maybe I am more a visual learner, but even if I wasn't,
this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM
is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.


Helping the sighted to guide you

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but
let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a
customer service representative. They tell you to click the
contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page.
This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs
on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration!
I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which
has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have
another contact link within the actual main body's content. The
difference however is, in this second link, though named
identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link
doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives
a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address.
Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated
on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however
still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more
times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar
for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page,
or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might
even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me,
though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the
only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for
example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for
this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted
scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form,
if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be
hit and miss.
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe
both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you
have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far
right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other
links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to
the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?


The bottom line

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something
anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a
screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find
turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd
even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy
at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I
would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're
not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however
if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will
really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great
in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a
mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with
DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period.
You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also
realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power
to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK,
it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.


What are your thoughts?

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
Chris.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Tyler Wood
 

Keep in mind AMD has just released their ryzen mobile processors, so that should be interesting. Similar to Intel, it will be Ryzen 3 = intel i3, ryzen 5 = intel i5, ryzen 7 = intel i7.

In these modern days, hard drives truly limit the speed of a computer. If you can afford it, even if it takes a little longer to save up, go for something with a solid state drive. You’ll never go back again. Even a cheap windows tablet with a 64 gb ssd is going to beat the socks off of that huge i5 with a 1 tb spinning hard drives in booting up, general snappyness around windows. Web browsing not so much but even so the solid state drive is what makes or breaks a computer and is why you can get by with a core i3 or equal from AMD.

Sean has a good point about soundcards these days, too. And even with headphones on it can still be painful with speech – so try and play with them in the store using narrator.

 

 

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: December 1, 2017 4:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

Is there a n equivelance chart somewhere for what Intel and AMD systems are

roughly the same as each other?

Brian

 

bglists@...

Sent via blueyonder.

Please address personal email to:-

briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'

in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Don H" <lmddh50@...>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 6:23 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

 

>I think it is important to get at least a Intel I3 processor or its AMD

>equal.  If you can't afford a higher Intel processor you will find fast AMD

>processors cheaper and just as good as Intel.

> On 11/30/2017 12:16 PM, Governor staten wrote:

>> One thing is for sure. You need at least 6 or 8 gb of ram. Netbooks no

>> longer cut it, at all. You could possibly find some refurbished computers

>> on Amazon.

>> 

>> 

>> I have an Asus netbook with 4 gb of ram (not expansible), 500 gb hard

>> drive, 2.16 ghz dual-core Intel Celeron processor. Graphics and audio are

>> built-in. I need to get a new computer, as well. I'm interested in this

>> discussion for that reason.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> 

>> 

>> On 11/30/2017 11:26 AM, Deborah Armstrong wrote:

>>> ** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***

>>> As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more

>>> difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think,

>>> so please post your thoughts.

>>> It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer, because

>>> I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of laptops,

>>> you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems, create art or

>>> engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those who just surf

>>> the web, read email and do some light word processing, reviewers

>>> maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just fine. In fact,

>>> reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews of inexpensive

>>> Windows laptops for just that reason.

>>> In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I

>>> could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877 was

>>> a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in that

>>> family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom. It had a reasonable fast 500GB

>>> hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful at running

>>> multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and Outlook without

>>> latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing. Compared to the

>>> computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the reviewers said, it

>>> didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy tasks at home.

>>> What's changed today might best be covered in this post:

>>> https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/

>>> which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to

>>> work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow, despite

>>> my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run unnecessary

>>> background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully refreshed.

>>> I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but that

>>> the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's foundation. It

>>> needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to handle the new,

>>> dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably on slower

>>> processors.

>>> But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still

>>> fairly fast. For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the

>>> laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at

>>> work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my laptop

>>> but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour to convert

>>> on my desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on the laptop.

>>> Handbrake is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.

>>> But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I

>>> expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't --

>>> seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself

>>> together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page

>>> refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email in

>>> Thunderbird.

>>> The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows 10,

>>> but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something read

>>> back to me.

>>> My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even

>>> though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my

>>> job.

>>> So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things I

>>> do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd buy

>>> something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM. Clearly

>>> that would result in a machine that's even slower than my existing

>>> laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!

>>> I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending a

>>> fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I use a

>>> screen reader.

>>> What do others think?

>>> --Debee

>> 

>

>

 

 

 

 


Re: The DOM Debate

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.



On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,


Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.



On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: The DOM Debate

Brian's Mail list account
 

It gets very vcomplex with landmarks frames and whatever Yahoo are up to which seems to be mostly chaos....
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher-Mark Gilland" <clgilland07@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Gene, the problem is, the way you describe the layout of a page certainly might make sense, and it may even be mostly standard, but there are those exceptions, trust me.

Enough said.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily. We, blind people, see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page. A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page. Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page. A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom. A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off. then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page. Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are. The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more. If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem. When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message. If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link. You won't lose your place.

You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Adriani,

You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message -----
From: Adriani Botez
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hello,


I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.


Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:


For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

First off, what is DOM?

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

Beauty and the Beast

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.

Here's a practical example of DOM.

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.

On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:

a.. Home
b.. About Us
c.. Blog
d.. Shop
e.. Support
f.. Contact Us

To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us

Here's another example.

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.

First example without DOM

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.

Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.

Second example without DOM

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

The difference

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.

Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?

The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.

We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.

Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

Helping the sighted to guide you

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?

The bottom line

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

What are your thoughts?

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

Chris.


Re: The DOM Debate

Brian's Mail list account
 

In a way I'm in a good place cos I saw web pages before I lost all my sight. However it should not really matter as long as the site does not say stuff like click the blue triangle near the top right corner for the information, and then assign a tag for said triangle as some cryptic link identifier instead of blue triangle 1 or whatever.

Half the problems I get from people is that they have been told about web layout but it means nothing whatsoever in a world where there is just up and down most of the time and stuff on the right is blow stuff on the left.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn. But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get. I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe. I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,




Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features. This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.






On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily. We, blind people, see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page. A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page. Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page. A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom. A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off. then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page. Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are. The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more. If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem. When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message. If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link. You won't lose your place.

You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Adriani,

You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message -----
From: Adriani Botez
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hello,


I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.


Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:


For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

First off, what is DOM?

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

Beauty and the Beast

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.

Here's a practical example of DOM.

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.

On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:

a.. Home
b.. About Us
c.. Blog
d.. Shop
e.. Support
f.. Contact Us

To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us

Here's another example.

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.

First example without DOM

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.

Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.

Second example without DOM

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

The difference

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.

Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?

The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.

We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.

Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

Helping the sighted to guide you

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?

The bottom line

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

What are your thoughts?

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

Chris.


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Re: Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

Brian's Mail list account
 

How peculiar. The thread will live as long as you do I suspect!
I was befuzzled as I could not duplicate any of it. Which just goes to show that the first move should always to be to disable the add ons.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating


Didn’t realise this thread was still alive. In anyone cared, I solved the issue; the problem was the webvisum firefox extension. After I disabled most of its features, web pages started loading correctly.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 1, 2017 6:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating



I never checked. I know you love old insecure programs but why, would anyone use old versions of ESR Firefox? They are just as vulnerable and insecure as old regular versions of the browser. If you are going to use an old insecure version of Firefox ESR, why not just do the simple thing and keep using version 56 of the regular version of Firefox? The whole point of using the ESR version is to have a program that works properly and is still receiving security updates. What sense does it make to use old versions of the program when there are so many old and insecure regular versions of Firefox that work properly? That's going the long way around to achieve the same end, an old, insecure, vulnerable browser.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: zahra <mailto:nasrinkhaksar3@...>

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 2:54 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating



hi gene.
thanks extremely for explaning about advantages of portable firefox versions.
does the website keep the download link for all old version of firefox
like its owner mozilla?
i mean does it have all versions of firefox since the first portable version?
or it only keeps the latest versions and removed old ones?
God bless you for helping you as always.

On 11/22/17, JM Casey <crystallogic@...> wrote:
Hi Brian.

The links are all still there, and screen-reader working perfectly. They
will activate in a new tab or window if I use the context menu options on
the links. Pressing enter does not a thing, though. However, I know that the
screen-reader (nvda, and jaws too in fact) are aware of the links. I
hesitated to post this at all because I'm quite sure it's not really a
screen-reader issue.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: November 22, 2017 6:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
links not activating

And are you saying this affects nvda and other screenreaders?


After all if a link works and then does not work that would suggest that the
page you are reading is not actually in focus for the reader or has
something transparent over it. I assume toggling the focus and browse mode
still work and that single letter nav ie k will still work? If you cursor
along a line do you hear the word link at any point and will it then
operate?

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:08 PM
Subject: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links
not activating


Hello everyone. Really sorry about this as it's not strictly speaking an
nVDA question, but I know Firefox has been a hot topic round these parts for
quite some time, so it doesn't seem entirely inappropriate. As I said in a
previous message, I was using FF 57 and it was working -- ok. But as other
users pointed out, it was kind of slow and weird. And as much as I'm growing
to really like nVDA, it did annoy me that I could not use it with JAWS at
all. So, I went and got Firefox ESR, as many on this list have also done,
and installed it. But now I have a weird issue, and it's one I seem to
remember coming up against with firefox before, but I can't recall for the
life of me what I had to do to correct it.

Basically, links will not activate as they normally do. I go to a site with
ctrl-l, and can maybe click on one link as I normally would, with the enter
key. Goodreads.com is an example of a site I visit frequently which now does
this. I can search for a book title and get a list of results, but then
clicking on that item appears to do absolutely nothing. The mobile facebook
site is doing the same thing, as have other sites, so I know it isn't
site-specific, but something on my end. The links *will* activate if I
select "open in new tab" from the context menu, but I don't want to have to
do this every time, obviously. My only thought is that something got changed
when I installed ESR over 57, a setting or something. This certainly wasn't
happening before yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.













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Re: After unistall Office 2016 with Microsoft Removal Tool nvda don't work fine

Brian's Mail list account
 

There was an article published on this a few weeks ago, anyone got a link?
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Alessandro Albano via Groups.Io" <sharkboy_torino@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] After unistall Office 2016 with Microsoft Removal Tool
nvda don't work fine


Hi,
on my Notebook the restore point fail to recover the system, all the restore
point avaiable.
I do not know the dll restore procedure, i dont know the dll to record.