Am 01.12.2017 um 20:18 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

Hi,
I’m trying to do some math.
I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.

What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?

Thanks in advance,
Jessica


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Hello david

Could you please explain to me what I should use in narrator to read all?

Because I used windows key plus m, and didn’t work.

Thanks in advance

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: 01 December 2017 01:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: narrator question

 

Thank you so very much. I am very interested.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Fred Mellender
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 4:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I got some good advice from a blind user of ChessSpeak.

 

So, I am trying to make the program almost entirely mouse free, with input via keyboard shortcuts and speech, and output via speech.

 

Please pass on any other advice.

 

I should have a beta test version in a week or so, but not all the desirable interface features will be in that version.  This program is for Windows 7 and later, only. The speech input and output only works in English. This program will always be free.

 

Look at the Users' Guide, Youtube video, and my webpage for details about this program.  All of the links were included in a previous post to this group.

This program allows a person to play a game of chess against the computer.  You can download the current version from my website.

 

Regards,

 

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 1:34 PM, anthony borg <anthonyborg001@...> wrote:

Hi can you please give me some more info about that chess program as I am very interesting to get it please?

Regards

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of fredm73@...
Sent: 29 November 2017 16:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I am the author of a free chess playing program, ChessSpeak.  I have a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXo8GzIORQ) and a Users' Guide (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik). This program allows for speech input from the player and replies with voice output. It has been used by many players over the past few years.

I wrote the program so that a sighted person could play with a regular chessboard, across the room from the computer, without using the mouse or keyboard (although it is not entirely hands free). I  did not intend this application for blind people, but have discovered there is interest in the blind community. ChessSpeak was developed without my awareness of NVDA.  One user told me he is using NVDA and that led me to this group.

How can I make ChessSpeak more friendly to blind people?  What are some very general, and then some specific guidelines?  I have read the Developers' Guide (https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/developerGuide.html) and understand it in a general way, although my Python skills are not strong.

If anyone could offer me specific suggestions or help for my application I would appreciated it. If anyone wants to develop the NVDA linkage to ChessSpeak that would be wonderful.

 

--

Fred Mellender
Rochester, NY

https://sites.google.com/site/fredm/

 

On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Governor staten <govsta@...> wrote:

One thing is for sure. You need at least 6 or 8 gb of ram. Netbooks no longer cut it, at all. You could possibly find some refurbished computers on Amazon.

I have an Asus netbook with 4 gb of ram (not expansible), 500 gb hard drive, 2.16 ghz dual-core Intel Celeron processor. Graphics and audio are built-in. I need to get a new computer, as well. I'm interested in this discussion for that reason.

---

On 11/30/2017 11:26 AM, Deborah Armstrong wrote:

** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***

 

As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think, so please post your thoughts.

 

It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer, because I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of laptops, you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems, create art or engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those who just surf the web, read email and do some light word processing, reviewers maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just fine. In fact, reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews of inexpensive Windows laptops for just that reason.

 

In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877 was a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in that family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom.    It had a reasonable fast 500GB hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful at running multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and Outlook without latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing. Compared to the computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy tasks at home.

 

What's changed today might best be covered in this post:

    https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/

 

which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow, despite my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run unnecessary background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully refreshed. 

 

I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but that the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's foundation. It needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to handle the new, dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably on slower processors.

 

But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still fairly fast.  For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my laptop but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour to convert on my desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on the laptop. Handbrake is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.

 

But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't -- seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email in Thunderbird.

 

The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows 10, but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something read back to me.

 

My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my job.

 

So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things I do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd buy something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM. Clearly that would result in a machine that's even slower than my existing laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!

 

I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending a fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I use a screen reader.

 

What do others think?

 

--Debee

Dear NVDA List,

How do I go about changing the voice when using NVDA to a similar
voice I would use if I had JAWS?

Thank you.

Lawrence Stoler

Hello,
You have to go to NVDA preferences, then to "object presentation".
Then check report object description.
While I had that unchecked, the title of the first link on your example page was not announced.
If you need more information on objects, you can also check the boxes "report tootips" and "report help balloons".
If you need more information on a link that has title, you can also press nvda+tab, when you are on this link.
Also, if you go through the page with say all command or the arrow keys, and you come on the link with title, NVDA will not speak the link title.
However, if the checkbox I meant at the beginning of this message is checked, and if you use the tab key to browse from link to link, you will hear the link title.
I hope this helps.
Best
Sylvie
Le 26/11/2017 à 03:35, 特種兵 a écrit :

hi all:


  yes, I known that.

  but the link's title attribute is not in "document setting" list.

  you can try connect this page and check what is response with nvda:

http://logo.gaga.tw/link_has_title.html

  thanks



Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io 於 2017/11/26 上午 04:36 寫道:

Not quite sure what you mean, in the document settings you can turn on and off lots of things to be spoken at the moment its saying heading level1 but I can tick on lots of other stuff in that dialogue and it makes navigation really irritating as so much is spoken. Is this what you mean?
Brrian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "特種兵" <afreettears@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 11:04 AM
Subject: [nvda] not announce title attribute on link when use nvda

Hi all,


 Why my nvda + browser not announce title attribute content on link.

 This question is very secret.

but some people could hear the title attribute's content.

 Like this html code:

<a href="http://www.nvaccess.org" title="open the new window" target="_blank"> nvaccess </a>

 I always only hear "nvaccess" when use nvda + browser(firefox, ie) on web or html file.

 and I test some machine the result is the same.

example:

 win 7, win 10, nvda + firefox or nvda + ie

 But there are few people use their pc can hear it.

 Through long time, I still not understand what's wrong?

 Would some body tell me what about?


 Sorry for my terrible English, my english teacher cry if she read the letter.


Logo Kuo from Taiwan

Ok, got it.

Those links render as buttons via NVDA, FWIW.

Stay well

Jacob Kruger

Blind Biker

Skype: BlindZA

"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."

Jacob:

 

My home page is at https://sites.google.com/site/fredm/.  At the bottom are the links to the chess programs, including ChessSpeak.  Click on the "down arrow" to the far right of the window and it will download the program.

 

Regards,

 

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 7:25 PM, Jacob Kruger <jacob@...> wrote:

I know a few guys who would be very keen for this to work nicely with screen readers, etc., and, while have had no involvement in NVDA add-on development, I do have some experience with python programming.

 

One issue is was unable to find any real form of a download link to try out your software on your site?

 

Stay well

 

Jacob Kruger

Blind Biker

Skype: BlindZA

"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2017/11/29 17:49, fredm73@... wrote:

I am the author of a free chess playing program, ChessSpeak.  I have a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXo8GzIORQ) and a Users' Guide (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik). This program allows for speech input from the player and replies with voice output. It has been used by many players over the past few years.

I wrote the program so that a sighted person could play with a regular chessboard, across the room from the computer, without using the mouse or keyboard (although it is not entirely hands free). I  did not intend this application for blind people, but have discovered there is interest in the blind community. ChessSpeak was developed without my awareness of NVDA.  One user told me he is using NVDA and that led me to this group.

How can I make ChessSpeak more friendly to blind people?  What are some very general, and then some specific guidelines?  I have read the Developers' Guide (https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/developerGuide.html) and understand it in a general way, although my Python skills are not strong.

If anyone could offer me specific suggestions or help for my application I would appreciated it. If anyone wants to develop the NVDA linkage to ChessSpeak that would be wonderful.

 

 

 

--

Fred Mellender
Rochester, NY

https://sites.google.com/site/fredm/

Thank you so very much. I am very interested.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Fred Mellender
Sent: 30 November 2017 22:15
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

Greetings to all,

I am moving over to
NVDA from WindowEyes and could use advice on which version to install.

I am using a 32 bit PC running Windows 7. I have no plans to advance to a later version of Windows. I have a HIMS Braille Edge display connected to my Windows 7 PC as well as the HIMS Polaris notetaker which also could serve as a possible display.

What other information might be helpful in choosing the best version of NVDA?

 

Thanks for your help!

 

Grant Metcalf (also known as) Grandpa DOS

Email: the.gems@...

Phone: (650) 589-6890

California USA

 

Dear NVDA List,

How do I go about changing the voice when using NVDA to a similar voice I would use if I had JAWS?

Thank you.

Lawrence Stoler

Evidently, at least Firefox is moving away from supplying screen-readers information using the DOM.  I don't think Edge uses it nearly as much as screen-readers have in the past either.  Someone who knows a lot more than I do may provide more information.  But even so, browsers will still show screen layout in the same way even if the DOM model is used much less or perhaps not at all.  The DOM model doesn't mandate that the screen be shown in a certain way.  That's formatting.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Mary Otten

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 2:42 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Jean, I agree with you for the most part, except that until fairly recently, didn’t  all the screen readers use the Dhom model? I used the Mac for several years, and they have a group model as well as dom, and dom was more efficient as far as I was concerned.  the search feature has proven much less reliable for me now that I’ve moved up to windows 10. I can search for things I know are there and get a no items found. Next time on there I get something. Frustrating. I think these pages are just too damn on needlessly complicated.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:19 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.  Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word "download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.  Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.

On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.

On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  

 

So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 

 

So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.

 

You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,

 

You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575

----- Original Message -----

From: Adriani Botez

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:

- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced

- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content

- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before

- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best

Adriani

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

 

First off, what is DOM?

 

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.

 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

 

Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

 

Beauty and the Beast

 

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.

 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.

 

On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:

 

• Home
• About Us
• Blog
• Shop
• Support
• Contact Us

 

To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

 

Link Home

Link About Us

Link Blog

Link Shop

Link Support

Link Contact Us

 

Here's another example.

 

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

 

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

 

First name

Edit

Last name

Edit

E-mail

Edit

Submit button

Clear form button.

 

First example without DOM

 

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.

 

Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.

 

Second example without DOM

 

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

 

First name Edit

Last name Edit

E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

 

The difference

 

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.

 

Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

 

The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?

 

The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.

 

We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

 

For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.

 

Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

 

Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

 

Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

 

Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

 

Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

 

In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?

 

The bottom line

 

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

 

Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.  Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word "download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.  Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.

On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.

On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  

 

So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 

 

So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.

 

You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,

 

You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575

----- Original Message -----

From: Adriani Botez

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:

- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced

- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content

- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before

- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best

Adriani

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

 

First off, what is DOM?

 

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.

 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

 

Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

 

Beauty and the Beast

 

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.

 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.

 

On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:

 

• Home
• About Us
• Blog
• Shop
• Support
• Contact Us

 

To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

 

Link Home

Link About Us

Link Blog

Link Shop

Link Support

Link Contact Us

 

Here's another example.

 

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

 

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

 

First name

Edit

Last name

Edit

E-mail

Edit

Submit button

Clear form button.

 

First example without DOM

 

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.

 

Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.

 

Second example without DOM

 

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

 

First name Edit

Last name Edit

E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

 

The difference

 

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.

 

Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

 

The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?

 

The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.

 

We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

 

For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.

 

Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

 

Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

 

Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

 

Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

 

Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

 

In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?

 

The bottom line

 

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

 

Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.

Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.

On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  

 

So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 

 

So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.

 

You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,

 

You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575

----- Original Message -----

From: Adriani Botez

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:

- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced

- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content

- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before

- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best

Adriani

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

 

First off, what is DOM?

 

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.

 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

 

Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

 

Beauty and the Beast

 

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.

 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.

 

On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:

 

• Home
• About Us
• Blog
• Shop
• Support
• Contact Us

 

To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

 

Link Home

Link About Us

Link Blog

Link Shop

Link Support

Link Contact Us

 

Here's another example.

 

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

 

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

 

First name

Edit

Last name

Edit

E-mail

Edit

Submit button

Clear form button.

 

First example without DOM

 

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.

 

Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.

 

Second example without DOM

 

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

 

First name Edit

Last name Edit

E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

 

The difference

 

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.

 

Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

 

The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?

 

The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.

 

We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

 

For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.

 

Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

 

Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

 

Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

 

Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

 

Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

 

In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?

 

The bottom line

 

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

 

Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.  Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word "download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.  Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.

On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.

On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  

 

So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 

 

So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.

 

You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,

 

You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575

----- Original Message -----

From: Adriani Botez

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:

- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced

- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content

- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before

- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best

Adriani

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

 

First off, what is DOM?

 

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.

 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

 

Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

 

Beauty and the Beast

 

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.

 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.

 

On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:

 

• Home
• About Us
• Blog
• Shop
• Support
• Contact Us

 

To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

 

Link Home

Link About Us

Link Blog

Link Shop

Link Support

Link Contact Us

 

Here's another example.

 

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

 

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

 

First name

Edit

Last name

Edit

E-mail

Edit

Submit button

Clear form button.

 

First example without DOM

 

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.

 

Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.

 

Second example without DOM

 

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

 

First name Edit

Last name Edit

E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

 

The difference

 

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.

 

Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

 

The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?

 

The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.

 

We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

 

For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.

 

Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

 

Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

 

Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

 

Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

 

Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

 

In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?

 

The bottom line

 

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

 

Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.

Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.

On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  

 

So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 

 

So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.

 

You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Christopher-Mark Gilland

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,

 

You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575

----- Original Message -----

From: Adriani Botez

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:

- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced

- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content

- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before

- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best

Adriani

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

 

First off, what is DOM?

 

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.

 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

 

Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

 

Beauty and the Beast

 

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.

 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.

 

On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:

 

• Home
• About Us
• Blog
• Shop
• Support
• Contact Us

 

To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

 

Link Home

Link About Us

Link Blog

Link Shop

Link Support

Link Contact Us

 

Here's another example.

 

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

 

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

 

First name

Edit

Last name

Edit

E-mail

Edit

Submit button

Clear form button.

 

First example without DOM

 

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.

 

Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.

 

Second example without DOM

 

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

 

First name Edit

Last name Edit

E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

 

The difference

 

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.

 

Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

 

The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?

 

The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.

 

We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

 

For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.

 

Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

 

Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

 

Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

 

Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

 

Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

 

In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?

 

The bottom line

 

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

 

Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

Go to document formating in nvda prefferences. There you can activate reporting of alignments by sound or speech.

Best

Adriani

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 20:40 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

Hi,

Do you put everything all the way to the left?

 

Will nvda read alignment?

 

If so, what’s the command for that?

 

Thanks,

Jessica

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rayn Darren
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Align everything to the left. Keeping in mind that the + - / or * also take a space. So for example, vertically, 5+5=10 would be

 

5

+5

10

 

You can try using underline for the bottom number so it looks like you have an equals line. I hope this makes sense and my apologies, I missed your OP.

 

H T H,

Rayn

 

-----Original Message-----

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jessica D

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 11:31 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

Hi,

 

No,

 

I have to present some of the problems vertically.

 

 

 

Is there a good way to do this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

 

 

From: Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@...>

Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 2:29 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] doing math with NVDA and Microsoft word 2016

 

 

 

Do you mean in fraction for example?

 

 

 

The best way is to check it with your braille wave. The numbers should pop up in the same braille cell.

 

 

 

Otherwise it is not simple at all.

 

 

 

Best

 

Adriani.

 

 

 

 

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

 

 

Am 01.12.2017 um 20:18 schrieb Jessica D <jldail13@...>:

 

        Hi,

 

        I’m trying to do some math.

 

        I’m using NVDA 2017.3, and word 2016.

 

 

 

        What’s the best way to ensure that your numbers are properly lined up?

 

 

 

        Thanks in advance,

 

        Jessica

 

 

 

 

 

        Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>  for Windows 10

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Go to document formating in nvda prefferences. There you can activate reporting of alignments by sound or speech.

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