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setting up your win ten computer
Hi list: When you set up your win ten computer, can you bypass adding a password to start the windows login? I know with 7 you can. If you can avoid the password for win ten. How does one do it? Do you just say you want it? Then when you get into your computer. Can you delete it? or are you stuck with it? I hope I’m making scense. Thanks and have a good day.
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Well, let‘s advance it a bit. As far as I understand the key discussion points, it is all focused on how sighted people present information to us (the link at the bottom on the right) and our ability to find it by the screen reader. But we need to present information to sighted people aswel. And here is the point. What if you have a sighted customer who searches something on a website and needs your help? You say, the link is called Contact. And the customer says, hm I cannot find it. Then you have to approximately know where it is located on the page. Another example is power point. If you exercise in learning structures, then you will be able to ilustrate things in a simple way. It is not easy to get into it, I aggree. But it is not the best solution to find a way to always avoid this. Because structuring is a very important skill.
Best Adriani
Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Your response to my message yesterday appeared to
say that because of exceptions, what I was saying wasn't an adequate
approach. That may not have been what you meant. But there is no way
to account for all exceptions. The best that can be done is to have a
general understanding of how web pages are laid out so that, when someone says,
as in your example, the link is on the right, that the blind person will know,
if it matters in this particular case, that that means he will find the link in
the bloc at the bottom of the page, as he sees it. Also, the NVDA feature
that allows you to see the screen as originally organized uses the phrase, when
supported. I don't know what that means or how many pages that means
aren't shown as organized when this feature is on. I hope we hear from a
knowledgeable person in the area we are discussing.
If I misunderstand your position, please clarify
it. Your example of two contact links yesterday appeared to blame
reorganization for the problem. I think the problem is caused by bad
training. If you know the structure of web pages and there are two contact
links, the second one you get to using the find command will be in the bloc at
the bottom of the web page in general and that is the one the person would use.
Of course, there may be exceptions, but you can't accommodate all exceptions to
make everything completely predictable in determining how a page is
displayed..
You could use the show as on screen settting but
that wouldn't necessarily make things easier or faster in any meaningful
way. Suppose the contact link is then shown to the blind person on the
right side of the screen. Then the blind person would, as I understand how
this would work regarding find, use the first result, not the second. But
how is that easier? It's just not repeating the search one time, a trivial
use of time. Beyond a certain point the user is responsible for dealing
with various situations but if the user doesn't get proper training, the user
can't assume the responsibility required because he doesn't even know what the
problem is or what can be done.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with
you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely
have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact
format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is
occuring.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven
Ministries
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57
PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
If that is what you were trying to say, then why
are you disagreeing with me? Having a page be shown as a sighted person
sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.
it's knowing how a page is organized so that when a sighted person says,
the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means
the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page. This link can
be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation
on the page may be easier. Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate
either because it implies that the dom is responsible for
reorganization. The dom doesn't require reorganization.
Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes
navigation easier in most contexts. But the dom doesn't prefer one
organization over another. The dom is just a way of making
screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen. How it is
organized is up to the screen-reader designer.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was
attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven
Ministries
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41
PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM
Debate
For many many users it is important to know somehow the
structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and
work together with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find
content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn
structures and so on.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Hi.
Not
sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I
just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use
the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be
simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just
want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way,
and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like
you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever
received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things
and find out for myself.
Nothing is
perfect. Search is a very underused and very effective feature that
screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other
methods. I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always
explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page
when looking for the same thing. Using find is not exploring the web
page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the
page. At times, this is necessary. It often isn't, and here
are examples.
If you are
looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move
through buttons. Depending on page layout, this may be faster than
using search or it may be slower. Why do you have to explore a page
again every time? You may have to explore a page, you may not.
Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating
the search isn't exploring the page. You are looking for a specific
thing. Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages
follow. if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the
site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you
are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as
"listen live." What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen
or some such variation. That's why I strongly advocate against using
the links list on unfamiliar sites. If a link has a word that is
common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first
word. It won't always. Search will find such a link. The
links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where
you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when
one search for the word "listen" might well have found it.
Contact is
another example. Almost every site that provides a way for you to
contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact
as part of the link. As in my previous example, contact will often
be the first word. Not always.
The inadequate
training a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to
use the skip blocs of links command. But it doesn't anywhere nearly
teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and
makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other
quick navigation techniques don't yield good results. And there are
times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best
first approach because they often work but not always.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Saturday,
December 02, 2017 2:47 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda]
The DOM Debate
Agreed but many people tend
to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it
at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages
like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things
still sluggish to use.
Amazon seem to often have interesting
variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead,
presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when
you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but
would you actually really want to explore the page
every
time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled
more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to
basket
buttons for example.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent
via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@...,
putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original
Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent:
Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM
Debate
And I wonder how much actual training material such as
tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent. Unless things
have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time,
even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many
people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link
to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made
that change. I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used
the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download." I
found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the
button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the
top of the page to find it. But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a
site.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
-----
Original Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December
01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re:
[nvda] The DOM Debate
Hi Gene,
\
I have had bad
experiences with TVI people. One of them when asked if she
knew
the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together." That speaks volumes.
On
12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who
want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that
includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are
important things to learn. But in this case, I think my
analysis
points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot
of blind people evidently get. I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe. I don't know but I'm
skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the
kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the
Internet.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01,
2017 9:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Hi
Gene,
Long story short of your analysis: learn
to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other
features. This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of
DOM to coexist.
On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM,
Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are
actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible
problems can be eliminated very easily. We, blind
people,
see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page. A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column.
Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees
the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right
on the page. Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at
the bottom of the page. A
sighted person sees these links
running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same
way as the links on the left side are seen.
So a
blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the
links then another block of links at the bottom. A sighted person
sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of
those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the
page in a column.
So, if you are using a
screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it
isn't off. then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact
from the top of the page. Repeat the search to see how
many
contact links there are. The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one,
if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any
more. If there is
only one, there is, of course, no
problem. When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search
again, you will get an error message. If you dismiss
the error
message, you will still be on the link. You won't lose your
place.
You don't have to give up all the
advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave
reorganization on.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From:
Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Friday, December 01,
2017 3:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Adriani,
You make some extremely valid points
which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your
contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven
Ministries
http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message
-----
From: Adriani
Botez
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM
Debate
Hello,
I an not using screen
layout like in your second example due to
following
reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow
link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red
since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s
say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last
link on the tab is being announced
- If
I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press
the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The
problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word
and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much
slower through the content
- When
navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to
focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar
before
- There is the NVDA addon
audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short
sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is
located on the screen.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone
gesendet
Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20
schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:
For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the
reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is
somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her
own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the
reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from
all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not
want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to
publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long
as you give credit back to
me.
First off, what is
DOM?
DOM, Document
Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which
assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from
one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the
screen.
So, what does
this mean to us
non-techies?
Put simply,
though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs
behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than
not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw"
is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is
happening.
Once a
website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where
the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to
this, however there are also some huge
setbacks.
Beauty and the
Beast
One of the
advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an
outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to
use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the
writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the
side of this
argument.
Here's a
practical example of
DOM.
Let's assume, for
just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your
preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.
On this
particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal
tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:
a.. Home
b..
About Us
c..
Blog
d..
Shop
e..
Support
f..
Contact Us
To fully
understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part
of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line
individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web
page.
Link
Home
Link About
Us
Link
Blog
Link
Shop
Link
Support
Link Contact
Us
Here's another
example.
You have a
short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last
name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would
reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by
line.
Please fill out
the following form so we may keep in
touch.
First
name
Edit
Last
name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit
button
Clear form
button.
First example
without DOM
Read this
line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized
before doing so.
Link
home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact
Us.
Second example
without DOM
Please fill
out the following form so we may keep in
touch.
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit:
button, Clear form:
Button.
The
difference
As you can
see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were
rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This
is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never
would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain
english.
Refer back to
my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being
represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the
page.
The problem is,
DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate
item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of
text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by
itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple
lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of
the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?
The second
example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in
existance.
We have a
form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet
of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name,
last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data
value.
For example, I
might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my
doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate
right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how
the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name".
This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland.
Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake,
I'm not including it
here.
Given how the
above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms
online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form
field, then the data directly below? No. It
doesn't.
Look at my
above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all
three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually
on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on
the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most
people.
Finally, we have
both the submit, and the clear
vbuttons.
Does it make
sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the
other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far
as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner,
but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is
exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per
line.
Helping the
sighted to guide you
So
why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer
service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab
located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very
poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love
of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many
times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the
top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the
page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's
content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named
identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't
direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally
unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one
contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my
point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count,
and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so,
you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the
Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links
list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing,
NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS,
for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for
this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted
scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which
contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and
miss.
Now, let's take
this same situation without DOM
mode.
In this
environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via
audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the
screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About
us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it.
Does this make sense
what I'm
saying?
The bottom
line
Regardless if you
choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an
individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I
have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may
drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing
experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people
to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation.
Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting
used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually,
you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is
great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a
mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the
content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as
well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are
taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things
differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but
that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be
considered as unnecessary
resources.
What are your
thoughts?
Do you use
DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why
not.
Chris.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask:
"How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on
a banana boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They
ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away
chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
HI. Do not download the .exe version as the installer is not at all accessible. Download the .zip version, then if you already have the latest Java installed, unzip it to your main drive, drive C in most cases. Also, remember to switch access bridge on. To do that, go to Ease Of Access center, navigate to the link that says "Use your computer without a display" or something to that effect, then go to the access bridge check box and check it. That should do the trick. Cheers!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 3/12/2017 8:12 AM, Tony Malykh wrote: Hello everyone,
I've heard that Eclipse is a popular IDE among VI people, so I've decided to give it a try. However, it's installer doesn't seem to be accessible to me. How do you guys install it?
So I successfully installed JDK 9 64-bit (since eclipse installer asked for it).
I downloaded an official Eclipse oxygen 64-bit installer from here:
http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/
And when I start it, it shows me a window with unlabelled buttons, editboxes, etc.
Am I doing anything wrong? Any suggestions will be appreciated.
Thank you
Tony
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Thanks David for taking the time to answer. Pascal
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Griffith Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 7:25 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question Narrator is already in Windows 10. In terms of terminology I think launch run and load are pretty mukch synonyums in this context to describe starting a program. In ancient dayhs of using Basic on BBC Micro and CPM we used to talk about loading programs into memory to run them. I guess I am therefore showing my age in using the term load in relation to starting a program. David Griffith My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts Hi David, Please forgive my ignorance. Do you mean launch Narrator or download and install it? Thanks Blessings Pascal This is a little odd as I have just loaded Narrator – pressed Caps lock M and it read all your email out to me with no problem. Ditto for this email reply which I am writing using Narrator.. It sounds like there is something intercepting your use of the caps lock key as a proper modifier. You don’t by any chance have NVDA or another program loaded which is grabbing hold of the caps lock key do you? NVDA should be unloaded before attempting to use Narrator. Alternatively some people on laptops remap the insert key to cpas lock which may also create problems. David Griffith My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts Hi tony Apologies I wanted to say when I use key stroke, caps lock plus m, it doesn’t readanything. Maybe I to use the letter m, with another key storke instead the caps lock? Thanks in advance Anthony Hi, Try this keystroke instead, Caps lock + M. Pressing Windows-m takes you to the desktop. Hope this helps. Tony On 12/1/2017 8:58 PM, anthony borg wrote: Hello david Could you please explain to me what I should use in narrator to read all? Because I used windows key plus m, and didn’t work. Thanks in advance Anthony Thank you so very much. I am very interested. David Moore Sent from Mail for Windows 10 I got some good advice from a blind user of ChessSpeak. So, I am trying to make the program almost entirely mouse free, with input via keyboard shortcuts and speech, and output via speech. Please pass on any other advice. I should have a beta test version in a week or so, but not all the desirable interface features will be in that version. This program is for Windows 7 and later, only. The speech input and output only works in English. This program will always be free. Look at the Users' Guide, Youtube video, and my webpage for details about this program. All of the links were included in a previous post to this group. This program allows a person to play a game of chess against the computer. You can download the current version from my website. On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 1:34 PM, anthony borg <anthonyborg001@...> wrote: Hi can you please give me some more info about that chess program as I am very interesting to get it please? Regards Anthony From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of fredm73@...
Sent: 29 November 2017 16:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer I am the author of a free chess playing program, ChessSpeak. I have a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXo8GzIORQ) and a Users' Guide (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik). This program allows for speech input from the player and replies with voice output. It has been used by many players over the past few years.
I wrote the program so that a sighted person could play with a regular chessboard, across the room from the computer, without using the mouse or keyboard (although it is not entirely hands free). I did not intend this application for blind people, but have discovered there is interest in the blind community. ChessSpeak was developed without my awareness of NVDA. One user told me he is using NVDA and that led me to this group.
How can I make ChessSpeak more friendly to blind people? What are some very general, and then some specific guidelines? I have read the Developers' Guide (https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/developerGuide.html) and understand it in a general way, although my Python skills are not strong.
If anyone could offer me specific suggestions or help for my application I would appreciated it. If anyone wants to develop the NVDA linkage to ChessSpeak that would be wonderful.
-- Fred Mellender
Rochester, NY
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Narrator is already in Windows 10. In terms of terminology I think launch run and load are pretty mukch synonyums in this context to describe starting a program. In ancient dayhs of using Basic on BBC Micro and CPM we used to talk about loading programs into memory to run them. I guess I am therefore showing my age in using the term load in relation to starting a program. David Griffith My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts
From: Pascal LambertSent: 02 December 2017 13:42 To: nvda@nvda.groups.ioSubject: Re: [nvda] narrator question Hi David, Please forgive my ignorance. Do you mean launch Narrator or download and install it? Thanks Blessings Pascal From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 5:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question This is a little odd as I have just loaded Narrator – pressed Caps lock M and it read all your email out to me with no problem. Ditto for this email reply which I am writing using Narrator.. It sounds like there is something intercepting your use of the caps lock key as a proper modifier. You don’t by any chance have NVDA or another program loaded which is grabbing hold of the caps lock key do you? NVDA should be unloaded before attempting to use Narrator. Alternatively some people on laptops remap the insert key to cpas lock which may also create problems. David Griffith My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts Hi tony Apologies I wanted to say when I use key stroke, caps lock plus m, it doesn’t readanything. Maybe I to use the letter m, with another key storke instead the caps lock? Thanks in advance Anthony Hi, Try this keystroke instead, Caps lock + M. Pressing Windows-m takes you to the desktop. Hope this helps. Tony On 12/1/2017 8:58 PM, anthony borg wrote: Hello david Could you please explain to me what I should use in narrator to read all? Because I used windows key plus m, and didn’t work. Thanks in advance Anthony Thank you so very much. I am very interested. David Moore Sent from Mail for Windows 10 I got some good advice from a blind user of ChessSpeak. So, I am trying to make the program almost entirely mouse free, with input via keyboard shortcuts and speech, and output via speech. Please pass on any other advice. I should have a beta test version in a week or so, but not all the desirable interface features will be in that version. This program is for Windows 7 and later, only. The speech input and output only works in English. This program will always be free. Look at the Users' Guide, Youtube video, and my webpage for details about this program. All of the links were included in a previous post to this group. This program allows a person to play a game of chess against the computer. You can download the current version from my website. On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 1:34 PM, anthony borg <anthonyborg001@...> wrote: Hi can you please give me some more info about that chess program as I am very interesting to get it please? Regards Anthony From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of fredm73@...
Sent: 29 November 2017 16:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer I am the author of a free chess playing program, ChessSpeak. I have a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXo8GzIORQ) and a Users' Guide (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik). This program allows for speech input from the player and replies with voice output. It has been used by many players over the past few years.
I wrote the program so that a sighted person could play with a regular chessboard, across the room from the computer, without using the mouse or keyboard (although it is not entirely hands free). I did not intend this application for blind people, but have discovered there is interest in the blind community. ChessSpeak was developed without my awareness of NVDA. One user told me he is using NVDA and that led me to this group.
How can I make ChessSpeak more friendly to blind people? What are some very general, and then some specific guidelines? I have read the Developers' Guide (https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/developerGuide.html) and understand it in a general way, although my Python skills are not strong.
If anyone could offer me specific suggestions or help for my application I would appreciated it. If anyone wants to develop the NVDA linkage to ChessSpeak that would be wonderful.
-- Fred Mellender
Rochester, NY
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Hello everyone, I've heard that Eclipse is a popular IDE among VI people, so I've decided to give it a try. However, it's installer doesn't seem to be accessible to me. How do you guys install it? So I successfully installed JDK 9 64-bit (since eclipse installer asked for it). I downloaded an official Eclipse oxygen 64-bit installer from here: http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/And when I start it, it shows me a window with unlabelled buttons, editboxes, etc. Am I doing anything wrong? Any suggestions will be appreciated. Thank you Tony
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JM Casey <crystallogic@...>
Gene: This is true. I have recently got some e-books on Windows 10. Most of these come from Microsoft Press and they explain a lot about the OS, including all sorts of neat tricks. They certainly don’t shirk keyboard navigation even though they are written for mainstream users.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 1:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate Some people are experimenters and learn through many ways, documentation, experimenting, looking around, and perhaps others I haven't thought of at the moment. Many people aren't experimenters and need more instruction. also, experimenters and those who learn many ways, often miss useful knowledge by not getting more organized instruction. I learned a lot about Windows by experimenting and looking at screen-reader documentation. But I didn't know certain crucial things. it wasn't until I got some organized instruction from Cathy Anne Murtha's material that I learned that much more is possible than just navigating by the first letter when jumping to files and folders in a list or tree view. You can type as much of the name of the item as you wish. If I have twelve items in a list of folders and files that begin with the letter t, I can type as much of the name of an item as I want and jump right to it. Generally, typing two or three letters of the name is enough. This can be used on the desktop as well. Whenever I see questions from people asking how to organize things in a certain way on the desktop, I'm suspicious that they don't know this. Why bother about the order of most things on the desktop when I can type tap to move to Tapin Radio, my c to move to my computer, etc. My Computer is no longer the name, but the example helps illustrate the point. That's why even people who are more or less self-taught would likely benefit from looking over some really good material. You don't know what you might not know that may be of real value. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate Hi. Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself. From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate Nothing is perfect. Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods. I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing. Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page. At times, this is necessary. It often isn't, and here are examples. If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons. Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower. Why do you have to explore a page again every time? You may have to explore a page, you may not. Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page. You are looking for a specific thing. Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow. if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live." What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation. That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites. If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word. It won't always. Search will find such a link. The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. Contact is another example. Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link. As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word. Not always. The inadequate training a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command. But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results. And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.
Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you actually really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent. Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change. I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download." I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it. But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Hi Gene,
\
I have had bad experiences with TVI people. One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together." That speaks volumes.
On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn. But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get. I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe. I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Hi Gene,
Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features. This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.
On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily. We, blind
people, see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page. A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page. Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page. A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom. A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off. then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page. Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are. The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more. If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem. When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message. If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link. You won't lose your
place.
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Adriani,
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message -----
From: Adriani Botez
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Hello,
I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:
For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
First off, what is DOM?
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.
So, what does this mean to us non-techies?
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
Beauty and the Beast
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.
Here's a practical example of DOM.
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:
a.. Home
b.. About Us
c.. Blog
d.. Shop
e.. Support
f.. Contact Us
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
Here's another example.
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
First example without DOM
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.
Second example without DOM
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
The difference
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
Helping the sighted to guide you
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?
The bottom line
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
What are your thoughts?
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
Chris.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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Speech player in Espeak fixes Hindi bug
Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
OK so in the latest snaps and RC certain non English, mainly Hindi characters stop Espeak from working until you reboot the screenreader, however I loaded in Spech Player in Espeak add on into the latest master snap and the rc and adjusting the voice back to Quincy which is what I use, resolved the issue.This to me seems odd as I was under the impression that the add on used resources of Espeak to make that new Edward test voice, so how come it fixes the problem?
Brian
bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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Re: Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone
You won't lose anything if you use the commands I
explained in another message.
Gene
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is
gone
Have you tried restoring the factory defaults? Of course, you'd
lose all your previous configurations but, it could get you back to what you
want. Perhaps there's a way to save your current configuration for
later restoration. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik burggraaf Sent: Saturday,
December 02, 2017 2:56 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.ioSubject: [nvda]
Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone Hi all, What
did I do? I was looking at a table intensive website when suddenly
pressing control alt and the arrows stopped working. I restarted and
went to another site, and still no joy. I must have hit a toggle that
turned the feature off, but I've been touring through the preferences and
can't find it. Of course, I have my preferences set to save
automatically, on exit, so restarting really semented the change now that I
stop and think about it. Any help
appreciated. Erik
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Re: Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone
You can't turn it off. You can
turn off announcements of tables, but not the commands. I'm not sure what
the problem is. You could try making NVDA run using factory defaults to
see what happens. In the desktop layout, it's control insert, use either
insert r, repeating the command three times quickly. What happens?
You can then restore to your settings with control insert r once. That
will tell us if it is an NVDA settings problem or something else.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:56 PM
Subject: [nvda] Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is
gone
Hi all, What did I do? I was looking at a table
intensive website when suddenly pressing control alt and the arrows stopped
working. I restarted and went to another site, and still no
joy. I must have hit a toggle that turned the feature off, but I've been
touring through the preferences and can't find it. Of course, I have
my preferences set to save automatically, on exit, so restarting really
semented the change now that I stop and think about it. Any help
appreciated. Erik
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Re: Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone
Have you tried restoring the factory defaults? Of course, you'd lose all
your previous configurations but, it could get you back to what you want.
Perhaps there's a way to save your current configuration for later
restoration.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik
burggraaf
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone
Hi all, What did I do? I was looking at a table intensive website when
suddenly pressing control alt and the arrows stopped working. I restarted
and went to another site, and still no joy.
I must have hit a toggle that turned the feature off, but I've been touring
through the preferences and can't find it. Of course, I have my
preferences set to save automatically, on exit, so restarting really
semented the change now that I stop and think about it.
Any help appreciated.
Erik
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Re: Which version should I install?
Hi, Stan
RC3 stands for release candidate version 3. This is the release
candidate branch. It contains code which is undergoing final
quality control before an official release is made.
Robert Mendoza
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 12/3/2017 2:59 AM, Stan Bobbitt
wrote:
Hello, you
said, “NVDA …2017.4 is on rc3…”
What is rc3?
Thanks,
Stan B
Hi,
NVDA 2017.3 should work for you. 2017.4 is on rc3
currently. I think you should be fifnd for now. I have
2017.3 and it works for me. HTH.
Matthew
On 11/30/2017 8:52 PM, Grant Metcalf
wrote:
I am moving over to
NVDA from WindowEyes and could use
advice on which version to install.
I am using a 32 bit PC running Windows
7. I have no plans to advance to a later version
of Windows. I have a HIMS Braille Edge display
connected to my Windows 7 PC as well as the HIMS
Polaris notetaker which also could serve as a
possible display.
What other information might be helpful
in choosing the best version of NVDA?
Grant Metcalf (also known as) Grandpa
DOS
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Re: Please help a Chess program developer
Fred Mellender <fredm73@...>
A new beta version of ChessSpeak is available at my website: https://sites.google.com/site/fredm/.
Download Version 4.0 at the bottom of the page by clicking on the arrow to the far right of the file name.
Be sure you do not get the earlier version.
Unzip the downloaded file to a folder of your choice.
Click on PlayChess.exe in the folder to start the program.
Your virus checker might not want you to click on it. Run it anyway.
When ChessSpeak starts up, click CTL-s. This starts a new game and sets up the new interface.
Please consult the User's Guide for further instructions. It is found at:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik/edit?usp=sharing
The Appendix, on page 13, explains the changes I made to make chessSpeak more useful for blind people.
Here is the text of that Appendix:
---------------------------
The goals were:
1. Reduce the number of pop-ups.
2. Use speech output and input where possible.
3. Reduce the use of the mouse.
4. Have keyboard shortcuts for most functions.
5. Put most of the useful output on one tab-page so the user does not have to move off of it.
It is assumed that a “screen reader” such as
NVDA (https://www.nvaccess.org/, http://www.afb.org/info/living-with-vision-loss/using-technology/assistive-technology-videos/learn-nvda/1234)
will be available. I don't know how NVDA works with ChessSpeak so I need someone to tell me if I can make things better.
Note that there are chess sets available for the blind that distinguishes the dark/white squares/pieces by touch. Of course the user can play truly blindfolded (without use of a board/pieces).
When the program starts up, the user should immediately press CTL-s for the interface setup. Normally this would not be done again during the session unless the user gets hopelessly lost.
The setup will start a game with the user as white.
At any time (such as the first move), the user can speak “move”, or press CTL-m and the computer will make the next move. This is a way for the user to play black, or just get the best
move from the computer. The user can specify a move when it is her turn (the first move, or after any computer move).
Instead of using the voice interface for input, the user can specify the moves via the keyboard. The move format is “long form”, giving the source square and then the destination square (no spaces or other marks in the format). Once the move has been entered, click “enter” and the move will be checked and then made on the board. Here is an example of long form:
e2e4
Note that captures and e.p. is specified in the same way.
Most other functions can be done from the keyboard via short cuts (as given by the legend above).
If the voice output is not understood, click CTL-r (or say “repeat”) and it will be respoken. If it is still not understood, perhaps the screen reader can make sense of the engine output text.
The current position will be spoken via CTL-p (you can stop the output via CTL-x). The current position is also given in the “current fen” field.
Note that the other interface tabs are still supported (to change opponents, for example).
--------------------------------------
Please note: I do not follow this news list. I probably will not make further posts to it either. Please check my website now and again for further updates to ChessSpeak. Suggestions for improving the interface for the blind are welcome. If you have questions/suggestions email me directly at fredm73@....
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Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone
erik burggraaf <erik@...>
Hi all, What did I do? I was looking at a table intensive website when suddenly pressing control alt and the arrows stopped working. I restarted and went to another site, and still no joy.
I must have hit a toggle that turned the feature off, but I've been touring through the preferences and can't find it. Of course, I have my preferences set to save automatically, on exit, so restarting really semented the change now that I stop and think about it.
Any help appreciated.
Erik
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Your response to my message yesterday appeared to
say that because of exceptions, what I was saying wasn't an adequate
approach. That may not have been what you meant. But there is no way
to account for all exceptions. The best that can be done is to have a
general understanding of how web pages are laid out so that, when someone says,
as in your example, the link is on the right, that the blind person will know,
if it matters in this particular case, that that means he will find the link in
the bloc at the bottom of the page, as he sees it. Also, the NVDA feature
that allows you to see the screen as originally organized uses the phrase, when
supported. I don't know what that means or how many pages that means
aren't shown as organized when this feature is on. I hope we hear from a
knowledgeable person in the area we are discussing.
If I misunderstand your position, please clarify
it. Your example of two contact links yesterday appeared to blame
reorganization for the problem. I think the problem is caused by bad
training. If you know the structure of web pages and there are two contact
links, the second one you get to using the find command will be in the bloc at
the bottom of the web page in general and that is the one the person would use.
Of course, there may be exceptions, but you can't accommodate all exceptions to
make everything completely predictable in determining how a page is
displayed..
You could use the show as on screen settting but
that wouldn't necessarily make things easier or faster in any meaningful
way. Suppose the contact link is then shown to the blind person on the
right side of the screen. Then the blind person would, as I understand how
this would work regarding find, use the first result, not the second. But
how is that easier? It's just not repeating the search one time, a trivial
use of time. Beyond a certain point the user is responsible for dealing
with various situations but if the user doesn't get proper training, the user
can't assume the responsibility required because he doesn't even know what the
problem is or what can be done.
Gene
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with
you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely
have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact
format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is
occuring.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven
Ministries
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57
PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
If that is what you were trying to say, then why
are you disagreeing with me? Having a page be shown as a sighted person
sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.
it's knowing how a page is organized so that when a sighted person says,
the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means
the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page. This link can
be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation
on the page may be easier. Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate
either because it implies that the dom is responsible for
reorganization. The dom doesn't require reorganization.
Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes
navigation easier in most contexts. But the dom doesn't prefer one
organization over another. The dom is just a way of making
screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen. How it is
organized is up to the screen-reader designer.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was
attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven
Ministries
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41
PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM
Debate
For many many users it is important to know somehow the
structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and
work together with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find
content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn
structures and so on.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Hi.
Not
sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I
just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use
the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be
simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just
want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way,
and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like
you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever
received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things
and find out for myself.
Nothing is
perfect. Search is a very underused and very effective feature that
screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other
methods. I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always
explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page
when looking for the same thing. Using find is not exploring the web
page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the
page. At times, this is necessary. It often isn't, and here
are examples.
If you are
looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move
through buttons. Depending on page layout, this may be faster than
using search or it may be slower. Why do you have to explore a page
again every time? You may have to explore a page, you may not.
Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating
the search isn't exploring the page. You are looking for a specific
thing. Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages
follow. if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the
site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you
are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as
"listen live." What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen
or some such variation. That's why I strongly advocate against using
the links list on unfamiliar sites. If a link has a word that is
common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first
word. It won't always. Search will find such a link. The
links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where
you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when
one search for the word "listen" might well have found it.
Contact is
another example. Almost every site that provides a way for you to
contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact
as part of the link. As in my previous example, contact will often
be the first word. Not always.
The inadequate
training a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to
use the skip blocs of links command. But it doesn't anywhere nearly
teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and
makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other
quick navigation techniques don't yield good results. And there are
times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best
first approach because they often work but not always.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Saturday,
December 02, 2017 2:47 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda]
The DOM Debate
Agreed but many people tend
to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it
at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages
like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things
still sluggish to use.
Amazon seem to often have interesting
variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead,
presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when
you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but
would you actually really want to explore the page
every
time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled
more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to
basket
buttons for example.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent
via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@...,
putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original
Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent:
Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM
Debate
And I wonder how much actual training material such as
tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent. Unless things
have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time,
even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many
people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link
to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made
that change. I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used
the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download." I
found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the
button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the
top of the page to find it. But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a
site.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
-----
Original Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December
01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re:
[nvda] The DOM Debate
Hi Gene,
\
I have had bad
experiences with TVI people. One of them when asked if she
knew
the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together." That speaks volumes.
On
12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who
want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that
includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are
important things to learn. But in this case, I think my
analysis
points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot
of blind people evidently get. I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe. I don't know but I'm
skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the
kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the
Internet.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01,
2017 9:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Hi
Gene,
Long story short of your analysis: learn
to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other
features. This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of
DOM to coexist.
On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM,
Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are
actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible
problems can be eliminated very easily. We, blind
people,
see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page. A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column.
Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees
the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right
on the page. Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at
the bottom of the page. A
sighted person sees these links
running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same
way as the links on the left side are seen.
So a
blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the
links then another block of links at the bottom. A sighted person
sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of
those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the
page in a column.
So, if you are using a
screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it
isn't off. then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact
from the top of the page. Repeat the search to see how
many
contact links there are. The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one,
if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any
more. If there is
only one, there is, of course, no
problem. When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search
again, you will get an error message. If you dismiss
the error
message, you will still be on the link. You won't lose your
place.
You don't have to give up all the
advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave
reorganization on.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From:
Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Friday, December 01,
2017 3:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Adriani,
You make some extremely valid points
which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your
contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven
Ministries
http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message
-----
From: Adriani
Botez
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM
Debate
Hello,
I an not using screen
layout like in your second example due to
following
reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow
link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red
since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s
say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last
link on the tab is being announced
- If
I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press
the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The
problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word
and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much
slower through the content
- When
navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to
focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar
before
- There is the NVDA addon
audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short
sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is
located on the screen.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone
gesendet
Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20
schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:
For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the
reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is
somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her
own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the
reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from
all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not
want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to
publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long
as you give credit back to
me.
First off, what is
DOM?
DOM, Document
Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which
assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from
one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the
screen.
So, what does
this mean to us
non-techies?
Put simply,
though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs
behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than
not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw"
is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is
happening.
Once a
website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where
the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to
this, however there are also some huge
setbacks.
Beauty and the
Beast
One of the
advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an
outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to
use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the
writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the
side of this
argument.
Here's a
practical example of
DOM.
Let's assume, for
just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your
preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.
On this
particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal
tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:
a.. Home
b..
About Us
c..
Blog
d..
Shop
e..
Support
f..
Contact Us
To fully
understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part
of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line
individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web
page.
Link
Home
Link About
Us
Link
Blog
Link
Shop
Link
Support
Link Contact
Us
Here's another
example.
You have a
short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last
name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would
reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by
line.
Please fill out
the following form so we may keep in
touch.
First
name
Edit
Last
name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit
button
Clear form
button.
First example
without DOM
Read this
line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized
before doing so.
Link
home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact
Us.
Second example
without DOM
Please fill
out the following form so we may keep in
touch.
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit:
button, Clear form:
Button.
The
difference
As you can
see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were
rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This
is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never
would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain
english.
Refer back to
my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being
represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the
page.
The problem is,
DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate
item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of
text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by
itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple
lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of
the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?
The second
example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in
existance.
We have a
form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet
of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name,
last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data
value.
For example, I
might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my
doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate
right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how
the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name".
This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland.
Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake,
I'm not including it
here.
Given how the
above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms
online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form
field, then the data directly below? No. It
doesn't.
Look at my
above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all
three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually
on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on
the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most
people.
Finally, we have
both the submit, and the clear
vbuttons.
Does it make
sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the
other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far
as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner,
but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is
exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per
line.
Helping the
sighted to guide you
So
why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer
service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab
located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very
poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love
of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many
times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the
top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the
page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's
content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named
identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't
direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally
unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one
contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my
point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count,
and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so,
you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the
Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links
list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing,
NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS,
for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for
this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted
scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which
contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and
miss.
Now, let's take
this same situation without DOM
mode.
In this
environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via
audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the
screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About
us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it.
Does this make sense
what I'm
saying?
The bottom
line
Regardless if you
choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an
individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I
have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may
drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing
experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people
to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation.
Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting
used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually,
you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is
great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a
mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the
content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as
well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are
taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things
differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but
that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be
considered as unnecessary
resources.
What are your
thoughts?
Do you use
DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why
not.
Chris.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask:
"How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on
a banana boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They
ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away
chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
|
|
Hi david I think you are right, one of those things you have mentioned is causing the problem most probably. I will check that, and see what will happen. Thanks very much for your help. Regards Anthony
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Griffith Sent: 02 December 2017 11:45 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question This is a little odd as I have just loaded Narrator – pressed Caps lock M and it read all your email out to me with no problem. Ditto for this email reply which I am writing using Narrator.. It sounds like there is something intercepting your use of the caps lock key as a proper modifier. You don’t by any chance have NVDA or another program loaded which is grabbing hold of the caps lock key do you? NVDA should be unloaded before attempting to use Narrator. Alternatively some people on laptops remap the insert key to cpas lock which may also create problems. David Griffith My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts Hi tony Apologies I wanted to say when I use key stroke, caps lock plus m, it doesn’t readanything. Maybe I to use the letter m, with another key storke instead the caps lock? Thanks in advance Anthony Hi, Try this keystroke instead, Caps lock + M. Pressing Windows-m takes you to the desktop. Hope this helps. Tony On 12/1/2017 8:58 PM, anthony borg wrote: Hello david Could you please explain to me what I should use in narrator to read all? Because I used windows key plus m, and didn’t work. Thanks in advance Anthony Thank you so very much. I am very interested. David Moore Sent from Mail for Windows 10 I got some good advice from a blind user of ChessSpeak. So, I am trying to make the program almost entirely mouse free, with input via keyboard shortcuts and speech, and output via speech. Please pass on any other advice. I should have a beta test version in a week or so, but not all the desirable interface features will be in that version. This program is for Windows 7 and later, only. The speech input and output only works in English. This program will always be free. Look at the Users' Guide, Youtube video, and my webpage for details about this program. All of the links were included in a previous post to this group. This program allows a person to play a game of chess against the computer. You can download the current version from my website. On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 1:34 PM, anthony borg <anthonyborg001@...> wrote: Hi can you please give me some more info about that chess program as I am very interesting to get it please? Regards Anthony From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of fredm73@...
Sent: 29 November 2017 16:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer I am the author of a free chess playing program, ChessSpeak. I have a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXo8GzIORQ) and a Users' Guide (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik). This program allows for speech input from the player and replies with voice output. It has been used by many players over the past few years.
I wrote the program so that a sighted person could play with a regular chessboard, across the room from the computer, without using the mouse or keyboard (although it is not entirely hands free). I did not intend this application for blind people, but have discovered there is interest in the blind community. ChessSpeak was developed without my awareness of NVDA. One user told me he is using NVDA and that led me to this group.
How can I make ChessSpeak more friendly to blind people? What are some very general, and then some specific guidelines? I have read the Developers' Guide (https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/developerGuide.html) and understand it in a general way, although my Python skills are not strong.
If anyone could offer me specific suggestions or help for my application I would appreciated it. If anyone wants to develop the NVDA linkage to ChessSpeak that would be wonderful.
-- Fred Mellender
Rochester, NY
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Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with
you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely
have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact
format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is
occuring.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven
Ministries
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57
PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
If that is what you were trying to say, then why
are you disagreeing with me? Having a page be shown as a sighted person
sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.
it's knowing how a page is organized so that when a sighted person says,
the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means
the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page. This link can
be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation
on the page may be easier. Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate
either because it implies that the dom is responsible for
reorganization. The dom doesn't require reorganization.
Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes
navigation easier in most contexts. But the dom doesn't prefer one
organization over another. The dom is just a way of making
screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen. How it is
organized is up to the screen-reader designer.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was
attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven
Ministries
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41
PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM
Debate
For many many users it is important to know somehow the
structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and
work together with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find
content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn
structures and so on.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Hi.
Not
sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I
just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use
the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be
simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just
want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way,
and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like
you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever
received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things
and find out for myself.
Nothing is
perfect. Search is a very underused and very effective feature that
screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other
methods. I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always
explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page
when looking for the same thing. Using find is not exploring the web
page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the
page. At times, this is necessary. It often isn't, and here
are examples.
If you are
looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move
through buttons. Depending on page layout, this may be faster than
using search or it may be slower. Why do you have to explore a page
again every time? You may have to explore a page, you may not.
Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating
the search isn't exploring the page. You are looking for a specific
thing. Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages
follow. if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the
site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you
are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as
"listen live." What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen
or some such variation. That's why I strongly advocate against using
the links list on unfamiliar sites. If a link has a word that is
common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first
word. It won't always. Search will find such a link. The
links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where
you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when
one search for the word "listen" might well have found it.
Contact is
another example. Almost every site that provides a way for you to
contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact
as part of the link. As in my previous example, contact will often
be the first word. Not always.
The inadequate
training a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to
use the skip blocs of links command. But it doesn't anywhere nearly
teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and
makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other
quick navigation techniques don't yield good results. And there are
times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best
first approach because they often work but not always.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Saturday,
December 02, 2017 2:47 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda]
The DOM Debate
Agreed but many people tend
to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it
at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages
like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things
still sluggish to use.
Amazon seem to often have interesting
variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead,
presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when
you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but
would you actually really want to explore the page
every
time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled
more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to
basket
buttons for example.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent
via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@...,
putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original
Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent:
Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM
Debate
And I wonder how much actual training material such as
tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent. Unless things
have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time,
even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many
people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link
to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made
that change. I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used
the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download." I
found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the
button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the
top of the page to find it. But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a
site.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
-----
Original Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December
01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re:
[nvda] The DOM Debate
Hi Gene,
\
I have had bad
experiences with TVI people. One of them when asked if she
knew
the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together." That speaks volumes.
On
12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who
want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that
includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are
important things to learn. But in this case, I think my
analysis
points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot
of blind people evidently get. I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe. I don't know but I'm
skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the
kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the
Internet.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01,
2017 9:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Hi
Gene,
Long story short of your analysis: learn
to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other
features. This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of
DOM to coexist.
On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM,
Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are
actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible
problems can be eliminated very easily. We, blind
people,
see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page. A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column.
Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees
the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right
on the page. Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at
the bottom of the page. A
sighted person sees these links
running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same
way as the links on the left side are seen.
So a
blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the
links then another block of links at the bottom. A sighted person
sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of
those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the
page in a column.
So, if you are using a
screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it
isn't off. then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact
from the top of the page. Repeat the search to see how
many
contact links there are. The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one,
if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any
more. If there is
only one, there is, of course, no
problem. When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search
again, you will get an error message. If you dismiss
the error
message, you will still be on the link. You won't lose your
place.
You don't have to give up all the
advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave
reorganization on.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From:
Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Friday, December 01,
2017 3:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Adriani,
You make some extremely valid points
which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your
contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven
Ministries
http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message
-----
From: Adriani
Botez
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM
Debate
Hello,
I an not using screen
layout like in your second example due to
following
reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow
link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red
since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s
say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last
link on the tab is being announced
- If
I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press
the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The
problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word
and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much
slower through the content
- When
navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to
focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar
before
- There is the NVDA addon
audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short
sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is
located on the screen.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone
gesendet
Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20
schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:
For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the
reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is
somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her
own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the
reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from
all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not
want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to
publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long
as you give credit back to
me.
First off, what is
DOM?
DOM, Document
Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which
assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from
one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the
screen.
So, what does
this mean to us
non-techies?
Put simply,
though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs
behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than
not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw"
is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is
happening.
Once a
website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where
the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to
this, however there are also some huge
setbacks.
Beauty and the
Beast
One of the
advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an
outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to
use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the
writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the
side of this
argument.
Here's a
practical example of
DOM.
Let's assume, for
just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your
preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.
On this
particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal
tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:
a.. Home
b..
About Us
c..
Blog
d..
Shop
e..
Support
f..
Contact Us
To fully
understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part
of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line
individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web
page.
Link
Home
Link About
Us
Link
Blog
Link
Shop
Link
Support
Link Contact
Us
Here's another
example.
You have a
short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last
name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would
reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by
line.
Please fill out
the following form so we may keep in
touch.
First
name
Edit
Last
name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit
button
Clear form
button.
First example
without DOM
Read this
line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized
before doing so.
Link
home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact
Us.
Second example
without DOM
Please fill
out the following form so we may keep in
touch.
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit:
button, Clear form:
Button.
The
difference
As you can
see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were
rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This
is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never
would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain
english.
Refer back to
my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being
represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the
page.
The problem is,
DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate
item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of
text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by
itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple
lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of
the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?
The second
example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in
existance.
We have a
form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet
of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name,
last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data
value.
For example, I
might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my
doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate
right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how
the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name".
This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland.
Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake,
I'm not including it
here.
Given how the
above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms
online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form
field, then the data directly below? No. It
doesn't.
Look at my
above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all
three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually
on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on
the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most
people.
Finally, we have
both the submit, and the clear
vbuttons.
Does it make
sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the
other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far
as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner,
but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is
exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per
line.
Helping the
sighted to guide you
So
why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer
service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab
located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very
poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love
of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many
times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the
top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the
page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's
content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named
identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't
direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally
unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one
contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my
point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count,
and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so,
you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the
Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links
list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing,
NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS,
for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for
this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted
scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which
contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and
miss.
Now, let's take
this same situation without DOM
mode.
In this
environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via
audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the
screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About
us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it.
Does this make sense
what I'm
saying?
The bottom
line
Regardless if you
choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an
individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I
have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may
drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing
experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people
to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation.
Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting
used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually,
you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is
great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a
mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the
content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as
well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are
taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things
differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but
that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be
considered as unnecessary
resources.
What are your
thoughts?
Do you use
DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why
not.
Chris.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask:
"How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on
a banana boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They
ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away
chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
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Re: Which version should I install?
Stan Bobbitt
Hello, you said, “NVDA …2017.4 is on rc3…”
What is rc3?
Thanks,
Stan B
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io]
On Behalf Of matthew dyer
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 5:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Which version should I install?
Hi,
NVDA 2017.3 should work for you. 2017.4 is on rc3 currently. I think you should be fifnd for now. I have 2017.3 and it works for me. HTH.
Matthew
On 11/30/2017 8:52 PM, Grant Metcalf wrote:
I am moving over to
NVDA from WindowEyes and could use advice on which version to install.
I am using a 32 bit PC running Windows 7. I have no plans to advance to a later version of Windows. I have a HIMS Braille Edge display connected to my Windows 7 PC as well
as the HIMS Polaris notetaker which also could serve as a possible display.
What other information might be helpful in choosing the best version of NVDA?
Grant Metcalf (also known as) Grandpa DOS
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inconsistent behavior of 2017.4 rc3 switching between sections in schrome
Hi, when you are chatting with someone using whatsappweb, there is a section with the previous messages, other conversations and so one and another section with a edit control and a button. If I understood write, I should use comma and shift + comma to switch between this two sections. But some times it changes and sometimes don’t.
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If that is what you were trying to say, then why
are you disagreeing with me? Having a page be shown as a sighted person
sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people. it's
knowing how a page is organized so that when a sighted person says, the
link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means the
bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page. This link can be
found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation on
the page may be easier. Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate either
because it implies that the dom is responsible for reorganization. The dom
doesn't require reorganization. Reorganization is done by screen-readers
by design, because it makes navigation easier in most contexts. But the
dom doesn't prefer one organization over another. The dom is just a way of
making screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen. How it
is organized is up to the screen-reader designer.
Gene
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was
attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven
Ministries
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41
PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
For many many users it is important to know somehow the
structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work
together with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content
for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures
and so on.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone gesendet
Hi.
Not
sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I
just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the
find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler?
There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get
stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel
like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying
it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training
for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for
myself.
Nothing is
perfect. Search is a very underused and very effective feature that
screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other
methods. I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always
explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when
looking for the same thing. Using find is not exploring the web page
in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the
page. At times, this is necessary. It often isn't, and here are
examples.
If you are
looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through
buttons. Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using
search or it may be slower. Why do you have to explore a page again
every time? You may have to explore a page, you may not. Doing
what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search
isn't exploring the page. You are looking for a specific thing.
Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow. if you
want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for
the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a
link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live." What if a
site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.
That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar
sites. If a link has a word that is common for such links such as
listen, it will often be the first word. It won't always. Search
will find such a link. The links list, if you move by first letter
navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort
looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have
found it.
Contact is
another example. Almost every site that provides a way for you to
contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact
as part of the link. As in my previous example, contact will often be
the first word. Not always.
The inadequate
training a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to
use the skip blocs of links command. But it doesn't anywhere nearly
teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and
makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other
quick navigation techniques don't yield good results. And there are
times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best
first approach because they often work but not always.
----- Original
Message -----
Sent: Saturday,
December 02, 2017 2:47 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The
DOM Debate
Agreed but many people tend
to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at
the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like
Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still
sluggish to use.
Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on
a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to
their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a
particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you
actually really want to explore the page
every time considering
how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree
search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by
there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for
example.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent
via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting
'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent:
Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM
Debate
And I wonder how much actual training material such as
tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent. Unless things
have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time,
even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many
people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link
to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that
change. I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the
screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download." I found
the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button
is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the
page to find it. But to those who learn by rote, even
minute
changes may lead to an inability to do something on a
site.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original
Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017
12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re:
[nvda] The DOM Debate
Hi Gene,
\
I have had bad
experiences with TVI people. One of them when asked if she
knew
the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it
together." That speaks volumes.
On
12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who want
to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes
most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important
things to learn. But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a
much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people
evidently get. I wonder how much traning material
explains things
such as I describe. I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is
explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron
Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject:
Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Hi
Gene,
Long story short of your analysis: learn to
use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.
This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to
coexist.
On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene
wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually
organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be
eliminated very easily. We, blind
people, see a lot of links
moving down from the top of the page. A sighted
person sees these
running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main
content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the
middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page. Then
a
blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page. A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page
in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are
seen.
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at
the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the
bottom. A sighted person sees
links running down the left side,
main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block
of links running down the page in a column.
So, if
you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature,
turn it off if it isn't off. then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page. Repeat the search to
see how
many contact links there are. The one a sighted person
describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as
the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be
any more. If there is
only one, there is, of course, no
problem. When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search
again, you will get an error message. If you dismiss
the error
message, you will still be on the link. You won't lose your
place.
You don't have to give up all the
advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave
reorganization on.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From:
Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Friday, December 01,
2017 3:08 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Adriani,
You make some extremely valid points
which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution
to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
http://www.gshministry.org
(980) 500-9575
----- Original Message
-----
From: Adriani
Botez
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate
Hello,
I an not using screen
layout like in your second example due to
following
reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow
link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since
I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the
first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the
tab is being announced
- If I want to
navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl
key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have
described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is
that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the
content
- When navigating by ctrl + right
arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t
know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole
bar before
- There is the NVDA addon
audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short
sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is
located on the screen.
Best
Adriani
Von meinem iPhone
gesendet
Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20
schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:
For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the
reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat
a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions
on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an
open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before
making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow
to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their
website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back
to me.
First off, what is
DOM?
DOM, Document Object
Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive
technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer
screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example,
some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation
of the content on the
screen.
So, what does this
mean to us non-techies?
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting
in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say,
the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw"
is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is
happening.
Once a website
is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the
website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this,
however there are also some huge
setbacks.
Beauty and the
Beast
One of the
advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an
outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to
use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the
writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the
side of this
argument.
Here's a practical example of
DOM.
Let's assume, for
just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your
preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.
On this
particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal
tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:
a.. Home
b.. About
Us
c..
Blog
d..
Shop
e..
Support
f..
Contact Us
To fully
understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of
this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line
individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web
page.
Link
Home
Link About
Us
Link
Blog
Link
Shop
Link
Support
Link Contact
Us
Here's another
example.
You have a short
form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name,
and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret
this. Again, please read this line by
line.
Please fill out the
following form so we may keep in
touch.
First
name
Edit
Last
name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit
button
Clear form
button.
First example
without DOM
Read this line
by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before
doing so.
Link home, Link
About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact
Us.
Second example without
DOM
Please fill out the
following form so we may keep in
touch.
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit:
button, Clear form:
Button.
The
difference
As you can see
in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in
such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I
asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have
most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy
in plain english.
Refer
back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being
represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the
page.
The problem is, DOM
renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item.
For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This
is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The
truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They
are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen.
Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?
The second
example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in
existance.
We have a form.
If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of
paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last
name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data
value.
For example, I
might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my
doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate
right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how
the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second
column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some
of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including
it
here.
Given how the
above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms
online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form
field, then the data directly below? No. It
doesn't.
Look at my above
second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three
fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the
screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same
line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make
more sense? It definitely should to most
people.
Finally, we have
both the submit, and the clear
vbuttons.
Does it make
sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the
other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as
to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but
even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is
exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per
line.
Helping the sighted
to guide you
So why is
this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for
just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website
design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take
this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen
this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page
which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have
another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The
difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the
same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to
a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and
possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this
should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen.
This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more
times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every
time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find
to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up
your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an
NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to
know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if
you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and
miss.
Now, let's take this
same situation without DOM
mode.
In this environment,
for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as
well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first
"Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know
this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the
same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what
I'm saying?
The bottom
line
Regardless if you
choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an
individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have,
you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely
awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you
absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it
a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not
used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're
anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see
the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me
wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to
have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're
not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna
happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to
also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to
render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not
be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some
would be considered as unnecessary
resources.
What are your
thoughts?
Do you use DOM?
If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why
not.
Chris.
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are
You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana
boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How
Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a
banana boat!"
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