Date   

Re: narrator question

Pascal Lambert
 

Thanks David for taking the time to answer.

Pascal

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 7:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Narrator is already in Windows 10.

In terms of terminology  I think launch  run and load are pretty mukch synonyums  in this context to describe starting a program.

In ancient dayhs of using Basic on BBC Micro and CPM we used to talk about loading programs into memory to run them.

I  guess I am  therefore showing my age in using the term load in relation to starting a program.

David Griffith

 

 

My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts

 

From: Pascal Lambert
Sent: 02 December 2017 13:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Hi David,

Please forgive my ignorance.  Do you mean launch Narrator or download and install it?

Thanks

Blessings

Pascal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 5:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

This is  a little odd as I have just loaded Narrator – pressed Caps lock M and it read all your email out to me with no problem.

Ditto for this email reply which I  am writing using Narrator..

It sounds like there is something intercepting your use of the caps lock key as a proper modifier.

You don’t by any chance have NVDA or another program loaded which is grabbing hold of the caps lock key do you?

NVDA should be unloaded before attempting to use Narrator.

Alternatively some people on laptops remap the insert key to cpas lock which may also create problems.

David Griffith

My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts

 

From: anthony borg
Sent: 02 December 2017 10:31
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Hi tony

Apologies I wanted to say when I use key stroke, caps lock plus m, it doesn’t readanything.

Maybe I to use the letter m, with another key storke instead the caps lock?

Thanks in advance

Anthony  

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Ballou
Sent: 02 December 2017 07:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Hi,

 

Try this keystroke instead,

Caps lock + M. Pressing Windows-m takes you to the desktop. Hope this helps.

 

Tony

 

On 12/1/2017 8:58 PM, anthony borg wrote:

Hello david

Could you please explain to me what I should use in narrator to read all?

Because I used windows key plus m, and didn’t work.

Thanks in advance

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: 01 December 2017 01:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: narrator question

 

Thank you so very much. I am very interested.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Fred Mellender
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 4:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I got some good advice from a blind user of ChessSpeak.

 

So, I am trying to make the program almost entirely mouse free, with input via keyboard shortcuts and speech, and output via speech.

 

Please pass on any other advice.

 

I should have a beta test version in a week or so, but not all the desirable interface features will be in that version.  This program is for Windows 7 and later, only. The speech input and output only works in English. This program will always be free.

 

Look at the Users' Guide, Youtube video, and my webpage for details about this program.  All of the links were included in a previous post to this group.

This program allows a person to play a game of chess against the computer.  You can download the current version from my website.

 

Regards,

 

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 1:34 PM, anthony borg <anthonyborg001@...> wrote:

Hi can you please give me some more info about that chess program as I am very interesting to get it please?

Regards

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of fredm73@...
Sent: 29 November 2017 16:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I am the author of a free chess playing program, ChessSpeak.  I have a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXo8GzIORQ) and a Users' Guide (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik). This program allows for speech input from the player and replies with voice output. It has been used by many players over the past few years.

I wrote the program so that a sighted person could play with a regular chessboard, across the room from the computer, without using the mouse or keyboard (although it is not entirely hands free). I  did not intend this application for blind people, but have discovered there is interest in the blind community. ChessSpeak was developed without my awareness of NVDA.  One user told me he is using NVDA and that led me to this group.

How can I make ChessSpeak more friendly to blind people?  What are some very general, and then some specific guidelines?  I have read the Developers' Guide (https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/developerGuide.html) and understand it in a general way, although my Python skills are not strong.

If anyone could offer me specific suggestions or help for my application I would appreciated it. If anyone wants to develop the NVDA linkage to ChessSpeak that would be wonderful.



 

--

Fred Mellender
Rochester, NY

 

 

 

 


Re: narrator question

David Griffith
 

Narrator is already in Windows 10.

In terms of terminology  I think launch  run and load are pretty mukch synonyums  in this context to describe starting a program.

In ancient dayhs of using Basic on BBC Micro and CPM we used to talk about loading programs into memory to run them.

I  guess I am  therefore showing my age in using the term load in relation to starting a program.

David Griffith

 

 

My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts

 

From: Pascal Lambert
Sent: 02 December 2017 13:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Hi David,

Please forgive my ignorance.  Do you mean launch Narrator or download and install it?

Thanks

Blessings

Pascal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 5:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

This is  a little odd as I have just loaded Narrator – pressed Caps lock M and it read all your email out to me with no problem.

Ditto for this email reply which I  am writing using Narrator..

It sounds like there is something intercepting your use of the caps lock key as a proper modifier.

You don’t by any chance have NVDA or another program loaded which is grabbing hold of the caps lock key do you?

NVDA should be unloaded before attempting to use Narrator.

Alternatively some people on laptops remap the insert key to cpas lock which may also create problems.

David Griffith

My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts

 

From: anthony borg
Sent: 02 December 2017 10:31
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Hi tony

Apologies I wanted to say when I use key stroke, caps lock plus m, it doesn’t readanything.

Maybe I to use the letter m, with another key storke instead the caps lock?

Thanks in advance

Anthony  

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Ballou
Sent: 02 December 2017 07:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Hi,

 

Try this keystroke instead,

Caps lock + M. Pressing Windows-m takes you to the desktop. Hope this helps.

 

Tony

 

On 12/1/2017 8:58 PM, anthony borg wrote:

Hello david

Could you please explain to me what I should use in narrator to read all?

Because I used windows key plus m, and didn’t work.

Thanks in advance

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: 01 December 2017 01:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: narrator question

 

Thank you so very much. I am very interested.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Fred Mellender
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 4:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I got some good advice from a blind user of ChessSpeak.

 

So, I am trying to make the program almost entirely mouse free, with input via keyboard shortcuts and speech, and output via speech.

 

Please pass on any other advice.

 

I should have a beta test version in a week or so, but not all the desirable interface features will be in that version.  This program is for Windows 7 and later, only. The speech input and output only works in English. This program will always be free.

 

Look at the Users' Guide, Youtube video, and my webpage for details about this program.  All of the links were included in a previous post to this group.

This program allows a person to play a game of chess against the computer.  You can download the current version from my website.

 

Regards,

 

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 1:34 PM, anthony borg <anthonyborg001@...> wrote:

Hi can you please give me some more info about that chess program as I am very interesting to get it please?

Regards

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of fredm73@...
Sent: 29 November 2017 16:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I am the author of a free chess playing program, ChessSpeak.  I have a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXo8GzIORQ) and a Users' Guide (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik). This program allows for speech input from the player and replies with voice output. It has been used by many players over the past few years.

I wrote the program so that a sighted person could play with a regular chessboard, across the room from the computer, without using the mouse or keyboard (although it is not entirely hands free). I  did not intend this application for blind people, but have discovered there is interest in the blind community. ChessSpeak was developed without my awareness of NVDA.  One user told me he is using NVDA and that led me to this group.

How can I make ChessSpeak more friendly to blind people?  What are some very general, and then some specific guidelines?  I have read the Developers' Guide (https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/developerGuide.html) and understand it in a general way, although my Python skills are not strong.

If anyone could offer me specific suggestions or help for my application I would appreciated it. If anyone wants to develop the NVDA linkage to ChessSpeak that would be wonderful.



 

--

Fred Mellender
Rochester, NY

 

 

 

 


Installing eclipse

Tony Malykh
 

Hello everyone,


I've heard that Eclipse is a popular IDE among VI people, so I've decided to give it a try. However, it's installer doesn't seem to be accessible to me. How do you guys install it?


So I successfully installed JDK 9 64-bit (since eclipse installer asked for it).


I downloaded an official Eclipse oxygen 64-bit installer from here:

http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/

And when I start it, it shows me a window with unlabelled buttons, editboxes, etc.


Am I doing anything wrong? Any suggestions will be appreciated.


Thank you

Tony


Re: The DOM Debate

JM Casey <crystallogic@...>
 

Gene: This is true. I have recently got some e-books on Windows 10. Most of these come from Microsoft Press and they explain a lot about the OS, including all sorts of neat tricks. They certainly don’t shirk keyboard navigation even though they are written for mainstream users.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 1:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Some people are experimenters and learn through many ways, documentation, experimenting, looking around, and perhaps others I haven't thought of at the moment.  Many people aren't experimenters and need more instruction.  also, experimenters and those who learn  many ways, often miss useful knowledge by not getting more organized instruction.  I learned a lot about Windows by experimenting and looking at screen-reader documentation. But I didn't know certain crucial things.  it wasn't until I got some organized instruction from Cathy Anne Murtha's material that I learned that much more is possible than just navigating by the first letter when jumping to files and folders in a list or tree view.  You can type as much of the name of the item as you wish.  If I have twelve items in a list of folders and files that begin with the letter t, I can type as much of the name of an item as I want and jump right to it.  Generally, typing two or three letters of the name is enough.  This can be used on the desktop as well.  Whenever I see questions from people asking how to organize things in a certain way on the desktop, I'm suspicious that they don't know this.  Why bother about the order of most things on the desktop when I can type tap to move to Tapin Radio, my c to move to my computer, etc.  My Computer is no longer the name, but the example helps illustrate the point. 

 

That's why even people who are more or less self-taught would likely benefit from looking over some really good material.  You don't know what you might not know that may be of real value. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: JM Casey

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 11:07 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Hi.

 

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Speech player in Espeak fixes Hindi bug

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

OK so in the latest snaps and RC certain non English, mainly Hindi characters stop Espeak from working until you reboot the screenreader, however I loaded in Spech Player in Espeak add on into the latest master snap and the rc and adjusting the voice back to Quincy which is what I use, resolved the issue.This to me seems odd as I was under the impression that the add on used resources of Espeak to make that new Edward test voice, so how come it fixes the problem?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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Re: Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone

Gene
 

You won't lose anything if you use the commands I explained in another message.
 
Gene

From: Andre
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone

Have you tried restoring the factory defaults? Of course, you'd lose all
your previous configurations but, it could get you back to what you want.
Perhaps there's a way to save your current configuration for later
restoration.


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik
burggraaf
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone

Hi all,  What did I do?  I was looking at a table intensive website when
suddenly pressing control alt and the arrows stopped working.  I restarted
and went to another site, and still no joy.

I must have hit a toggle that turned the feature off, but I've been touring
through the preferences and can't find it.  Of course, I have my
preferences set to save automatically, on exit, so restarting really
semented the change now that I stop and think about it.

Any help appreciated.

Erik








Re: Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone

Gene
 

You can't turn it off.  You can turn off announcements of tables, but not the commands.  I'm not sure what the problem is.  You could try making NVDA run using factory defaults to see what happens.  In the desktop layout, it's control insert, use either insert r, repeating the command three times quickly.  What happens?  You can then restore to your settings with control insert r once.  That will tell us if it is an NVDA settings problem or something else.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:56 PM
Subject: [nvda] Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone

Hi all,  What did I do?  I was looking at a table intensive website when
suddenly pressing control alt and the arrows stopped working.  I restarted
and went to another site, and still no joy.

I must have hit a toggle that turned the feature off, but I've been touring
through the preferences and can't find it.  Of course, I have my
preferences set to save automatically, on exit, so restarting really
semented the change now that I stop and think about it.

Any help appreciated.

Erik





Re: Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone

Andre
 

Have you tried restoring the factory defaults? Of course, you'd lose all
your previous configurations but, it could get you back to what you want.
Perhaps there's a way to save your current configuration for later
restoration.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik
burggraaf
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone

Hi all, What did I do? I was looking at a table intensive website when
suddenly pressing control alt and the arrows stopped working. I restarted
and went to another site, and still no joy.

I must have hit a toggle that turned the feature off, but I've been touring
through the preferences and can't find it. Of course, I have my
preferences set to save automatically, on exit, so restarting really
semented the change now that I stop and think about it.

Any help appreciated.

Erik


Re: Which version should I install?

Robert Mendoza
 

Hi, Stan


RC3 stands for release candidate version 3. This is the release candidate branch. It contains code which is undergoing final quality control before an official release is made.


Robert Mendoza

On 12/3/2017 2:59 AM, Stan Bobbitt wrote:

Hello, you said, “NVDA …2017.4 is on rc3…” What is rc3?

Thanks,

Stan B

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of matthew dyer
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 5:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Which version should I install?

 

Hi,

 

NVDA 2017.3 should work for you.  2017.4 is on rc3 currently.  I  think you should be fifnd for now.  I have 2017.3 and it works for me.  HTH.

 

Matthew

 

 

 

On 11/30/2017 8:52 PM, Grant Metcalf wrote:

Greetings to all,

I am moving over to
NVDA from WindowEyes and could use advice on which version to install.

I am using a 32 bit PC running Windows 7. I have no plans to advance to a later version of Windows. I have a HIMS Braille Edge display connected to my Windows 7 PC as well as the HIMS Polaris notetaker which also could serve as a possible display.

What other information might be helpful in choosing the best version of NVDA?

 

Thanks for your help!

 

Grant Metcalf (also known as) Grandpa DOS

Email: the.gems@...

Phone: (650) 589-6890

California USA

 

 


Re: Please help a Chess program developer

Fred Mellender <fredm73@...>
 

A new beta version of ChessSpeak is available at my website: https://sites.google.com/site/fredm/.
 
Download Version 4.0 at the bottom of the page by clicking on the arrow to the far right of the file name.
Be sure you do not get the earlier version.
 
Unzip the downloaded file to a folder of your choice.
Click on PlayChess.exe in the folder to start the program.
Your virus checker might not want you to click on it. Run it anyway.
 
When ChessSpeak starts up, click CTL-s. This starts a new game and sets up the new interface.
Please consult the User's Guide for further instructions. It is found at:
 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik/edit?usp=sharing
 
The Appendix, on page 13, explains the changes I made to make chessSpeak more useful for blind people.
 
Here is the text of that Appendix:
---------------------------
 
The goals were:
1. Reduce the number of pop-ups.
2. Use speech output and input where possible.
3. Reduce the use of the mouse.
4. Have keyboard shortcuts for most functions.
5. Put most of the useful output on one tab-page so the user does not have to move off of it.
 
It is assumed that a “screen reader” such as 
NVDA (https://www.nvaccess.org/, http://www.afb.org/info/living-with-vision-loss/using-technology/assistive-technology-videos/learn-nvda/1234) 
will be available. I don't know how NVDA works with ChessSpeak so I need someone to tell me if I can make things better.
 
Note that there are chess sets available for the blind that distinguishes the dark/white squares/pieces by touch. Of course the user can play truly blindfolded (without use of a board/pieces).
 
When the program starts up, the user should immediately press CTL-s for the interface setup. Normally this would not be done again during the session unless the user gets hopelessly lost. 
The setup will start a game with the user as white.
 
At any time (such as the first move), the user can speak “move”, or press CTL-m and the computer will make the next move. This is a way for the user to play black, or just get the best 
move from the computer. The user can specify a move when it is her turn (the first move, or after any computer move).
 
Instead of using the voice interface for input, the user can specify the moves via the keyboard. The move format is “long form”, giving the source square and then the destination square (no spaces or other marks in the format). Once the move has been entered, click “enter” and the move will be checked and then made on the board.  Here is an example of long form:
e2e4
Note that captures and e.p. is specified in the same way.
 
Most other functions can be done from the keyboard via short cuts (as given by the legend above).
 
If the voice output is not understood, click CTL-r (or say “repeat”) and it will be respoken. If it is still not understood, perhaps the screen reader can make sense of the engine output text.
 
The current position will be spoken via CTL-p (you can stop the output via CTL-x). The current position is also given in the “current fen” field.
 
Note that the other interface tabs are still supported (to change opponents, for example).
--------------------------------------

Please note: I do not follow this news list.  I probably will not make further posts to it either. Please check my website now and again for further updates to ChessSpeak.
Suggestions for improving the interface for the blind are welcome.  If you have questions/suggestions email me directly at fredm73@....
 


Table nav with the control, alt, and arrows is gone

erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Hi all, What did I do? I was looking at a table intensive website when suddenly pressing control alt and the arrows stopped working. I restarted and went to another site, and still no joy.

I must have hit a toggle that turned the feature off, but I've been touring through the preferences and can't find it. Of course, I have my preferences set to save automatically, on exit, so restarting really semented the change now that I stop and think about it.

Any help appreciated.

Erik


Re: The DOM Debate

Gene
 

Your response to my message yesterday appeared to say that because of exceptions, what I was saying wasn't an adequate approach.  That may not have been what you meant.  But there is no way to account for all exceptions.  The best that can be done is to have a general understanding of how web pages are laid out so that, when someone says, as in your example, the link is on the right, that the blind person will know, if it matters in this particular case, that that means he will find the link in the bloc at the bottom of the page, as he sees it.  Also, the NVDA feature that allows you to see the screen as originally organized uses the phrase, when supported.  I don't know what that means or how many pages that means aren't shown as organized when this feature is on.  I hope we hear from a knowledgeable person in the area we are discussing. 
 
If I misunderstand your position, please clarify it.  Your example of two contact links yesterday appeared to blame reorganization for the problem.  I think the problem is caused by bad training.  If you know the structure of web pages and there are two contact links, the second one you get to using the find command will be in the bloc at the bottom of the web page in general and that is the one the person would use. Of course, there may be exceptions, but you can't accommodate all exceptions to make everything completely predictable in determining how a page is displayed..
 
You could use the show as on screen settting but that wouldn't necessarily make things easier or faster in any meaningful way.  Suppose the contact link is then shown to the blind person on the right side of the screen.  Then the blind person would, as I understand how this would work regarding find, use the first result, not the second.  But how is that easier?  It's just not repeating the search one time, a trivial use of time.  Beyond a certain point the user is responsible for dealing with various situations but if the user doesn't get proper training, the user can't assume the responsibility required because he doesn't even know what the problem is or what can be done.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is occuring.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

If that is what you were trying to say, then why are you disagreeing with me?  Having a page be shown as a sighted person sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.  it's knowing how a page is organized so that when  a sighted person says, the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page.  This link can be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation on the page may be easier.  Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate either because it implies that the dom is responsible for reorganization.  The dom doesn't require reorganization.  Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes navigation easier in most contexts.  But the dom doesn't prefer one organization over another.  The dom is just a way of making screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen.  How it is organized is up to the screen-reader designer.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

For many many users it is important to know somehow the structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work together  with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures and so on.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 18:07 schrieb JM Casey <crystallogic@...>:

Hi.

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



Re: narrator question

anthony borg
 

Hi david

I think you are right, one of those things you have mentioned is causing the problem most probably.

I will check that, and see what will happen.

Thanks very much for your help.

Regards

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: 02 December 2017 11:45
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

This is  a little odd as I have just loaded Narrator – pressed Caps lock M and it read all your email out to me with no problem.

Ditto for this email reply which I  am writing using Narrator..

It sounds like there is something intercepting your use of the caps lock key as a proper modifier.

You don’t by any chance have NVDA or another program loaded which is grabbing hold of the caps lock key do you?

NVDA should be unloaded before attempting to use Narrator.

Alternatively some people on laptops remap the insert key to cpas lock which may also create problems.

David Griffith

My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts

 

From: anthony borg
Sent: 02 December 2017 10:31
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Hi tony

Apologies I wanted to say when I use key stroke, caps lock plus m, it doesn’t readanything.

Maybe I to use the letter m, with another key storke instead the caps lock?

Thanks in advance

Anthony  

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Ballou
Sent: 02 December 2017 07:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Hi,

 

Try this keystroke instead,

Caps lock + M. Pressing Windows-m takes you to the desktop. Hope this helps.

 

Tony

 

On 12/1/2017 8:58 PM, anthony borg wrote:

Hello david

Could you please explain to me what I should use in narrator to read all?

Because I used windows key plus m, and didn’t work.

Thanks in advance

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: 01 December 2017 01:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: narrator question

 

Thank you so very much. I am very interested.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Fred Mellender
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 4:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I got some good advice from a blind user of ChessSpeak.

 

So, I am trying to make the program almost entirely mouse free, with input via keyboard shortcuts and speech, and output via speech.

 

Please pass on any other advice.

 

I should have a beta test version in a week or so, but not all the desirable interface features will be in that version.  This program is for Windows 7 and later, only. The speech input and output only works in English. This program will always be free.

 

Look at the Users' Guide, Youtube video, and my webpage for details about this program.  All of the links were included in a previous post to this group.

This program allows a person to play a game of chess against the computer.  You can download the current version from my website.

 

Regards,

 

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 1:34 PM, anthony borg <anthonyborg001@...> wrote:

Hi can you please give me some more info about that chess program as I am very interesting to get it please?

Regards

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of fredm73@...
Sent: 29 November 2017 16:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I am the author of a free chess playing program, ChessSpeak.  I have a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXo8GzIORQ) and a Users' Guide (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik). This program allows for speech input from the player and replies with voice output. It has been used by many players over the past few years.

I wrote the program so that a sighted person could play with a regular chessboard, across the room from the computer, without using the mouse or keyboard (although it is not entirely hands free). I  did not intend this application for blind people, but have discovered there is interest in the blind community. ChessSpeak was developed without my awareness of NVDA.  One user told me he is using NVDA and that led me to this group.

How can I make ChessSpeak more friendly to blind people?  What are some very general, and then some specific guidelines?  I have read the Developers' Guide (https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/developerGuide.html) and understand it in a general way, although my Python skills are not strong.

If anyone could offer me specific suggestions or help for my application I would appreciated it. If anyone wants to develop the NVDA linkage to ChessSpeak that would be wonderful.



 

--

Fred Mellender
Rochester, NY

 

 

 


Re: The DOM Debate

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 


When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is occuring.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

If that is what you were trying to say, then why are you disagreeing with me?  Having a page be shown as a sighted person sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.  it's knowing how a page is organized so that when  a sighted person says, the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page.  This link can be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation on the page may be easier.  Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate either because it implies that the dom is responsible for reorganization.  The dom doesn't require reorganization.  Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes navigation easier in most contexts.  But the dom doesn't prefer one organization over another.  The dom is just a way of making screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen.  How it is organized is up to the screen-reader designer.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

For many many users it is important to know somehow the structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work together  with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures and so on.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 18:07 schrieb JM Casey <crystallogic@...>:

Hi.

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



Re: Which version should I install?

Stan Bobbitt
 

Hello, you said, “NVDA …2017.4 is on rc3…” What is rc3?

Thanks,

Stan B

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of matthew dyer
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 5:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Which version should I install?

 

Hi,

 

NVDA 2017.3 should work for you.  2017.4 is on rc3 currently.  I  think you should be fifnd for now.  I have 2017.3 and it works for me.  HTH.

 

Matthew

 

 

 

On 11/30/2017 8:52 PM, Grant Metcalf wrote:

Greetings to all,

I am moving over to
NVDA from WindowEyes and could use advice on which version to install.

I am using a 32 bit PC running Windows 7. I have no plans to advance to a later version of Windows. I have a HIMS Braille Edge display connected to my Windows 7 PC as well as the HIMS Polaris notetaker which also could serve as a possible display.

What other information might be helpful in choosing the best version of NVDA?

 

Thanks for your help!

 

Grant Metcalf (also known as) Grandpa DOS

Email: the.gems@...

Phone: (650) 589-6890

California USA

 

 


inconsistent behavior of 2017.4 rc3 switching between sections in schrome

Alexandre Alves Toco
 

Hi, when you are chatting with someone using whatsappweb, there is a section with the previous messages, other conversations and so one and another section with a edit control and a button.

If I understood write, I should use comma and shift + comma to switch between this two sections. But some times it changes and sometimes don’t.

 


Re: The DOM Debate

Gene
 

If that is what you were trying to say, then why are you disagreeing with me?  Having a page be shown as a sighted person sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.  it's knowing how a page is organized so that when  a sighted person says, the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page.  This link can be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation on the page may be easier.  Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate either because it implies that the dom is responsible for reorganization.  The dom doesn't require reorganization.  Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes navigation easier in most contexts.  But the dom doesn't prefer one organization over another.  The dom is just a way of making screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen.  How it is organized is up to the screen-reader designer.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

For many many users it is important to know somehow the structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work together  with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures and so on.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 18:07 schrieb JM Casey <crystallogic@...>:

Hi.

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



Re: The DOM Debate

Mary Otten <motten53@...>
 

I’m quite aware of W3C and the fact that they have standards, and the fact that they’re largely ignored when people feel like it. But at least the web browser folks should totally go by W3C and they don’t. And then there are whatever these issues are the cause things to be recognized differently on different sites by browser or screen or both. It’s altogether too much.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 2, 2017, at 10:36 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...> wrote:

Well, Mary, there kind of is! a standard, but maybe not entirely the way you're describing it... W3 has a very definitely standard for how things should be designed, however not everyone follows it 100%.
 
You can learn more about this at:
 
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Well it would sure help if they had standards for all these kinds of buttons and things, like tabs and they identify as links or submenus or whatever. And then the screen readers react differently. It makes things a whole lot more complicated. I don’t care what it looks like, as I almost never get sighted  direction like what you described. But when you run across something as badly label and don’t know how to interact with it, that is a problem. And then there are the sites that work great with one browser, letting  you do a form with ease, while the other screen reader  is horrible and doesn’t read any labels on any edit field. I don’t know why that is, but it is crazy. The cognitive load is getting greater and greater. And I’m not getting any younger. Smile

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Evidently, at least Firefox is moving away from supplying screen-readers information using the DOM.  I don't think Edge uses it nearly as much as screen-readers have in the past either.  Someone who knows a lot more than I do may provide more information.  But even so, browsers will still show screen layout in the same way even if the DOM model is used much less or perhaps not at all.  The DOM model doesn't mandate that the screen be shown in a certain way.  That's formatting.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Jean, I agree with you for the most part, except that until fairly recently, didn’t  all the screen readers use the Dhom model? I used the Mac for several years, and they have a group model as well as dom, and dom was more efficient as far as I was concerned.  the search feature has proven much less reliable for me now that I’ve moved up to windows 10. I can search for things I know are there and get a no items found. Next time on there I get something. Frustrating. I think these pages are just too damn on needlessly complicated.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:19 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.  Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word "download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.  Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.



On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,


Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.



On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: The DOM Debate

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 


Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

For many many users it is important to know somehow the structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work together  with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures and so on.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 18:07 schrieb JM Casey <crystallogic@...>:

Hi.

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



Re: The DOM Debate

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 


Well, Mary, there kind of is! a standard, but maybe not entirely the way you're describing it... W3 has a very definitely standard for how things should be designed, however not everyone follows it 100%.
 
You can learn more about this at:
 
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Well it would sure help if they had standards for all these kinds of buttons and things, like tabs and they identify as links or submenus or whatever. And then the screen readers react differently. It makes things a whole lot more complicated. I don’t care what it looks like, as I almost never get sighted  direction like what you described. But when you run across something as badly label and don’t know how to interact with it, that is a problem. And then there are the sites that work great with one browser, letting  you do a form with ease, while the other screen reader  is horrible and doesn’t read any labels on any edit field. I don’t know why that is, but it is crazy. The cognitive load is getting greater and greater. And I’m not getting any younger. Smile

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Evidently, at least Firefox is moving away from supplying screen-readers information using the DOM.  I don't think Edge uses it nearly as much as screen-readers have in the past either.  Someone who knows a lot more than I do may provide more information.  But even so, browsers will still show screen layout in the same way even if the DOM model is used much less or perhaps not at all.  The DOM model doesn't mandate that the screen be shown in a certain way.  That's formatting.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Jean, I agree with you for the most part, except that until fairly recently, didn’t  all the screen readers use the Dhom model? I used the Mac for several years, and they have a group model as well as dom, and dom was more efficient as far as I was concerned.  the search feature has proven much less reliable for me now that I’ve moved up to windows 10. I can search for things I know are there and get a no items found. Next time on there I get something. Frustrating. I think these pages are just too damn on needlessly complicated.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:19 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.  Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word "download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.  Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.



On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,


Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.



On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
 
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
 
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
 
Gene  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Adriani,
 
You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hello,

I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.
 

First off, what is DOM?

 
DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.
 

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

 
Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
 
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.
 

Beauty and the Beast

 
One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.
 

Here's a practical example of DOM.

 
Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
 
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
 
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
 
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
 
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us
 

Here's another example.

 
You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name
Edit
Last name
Edit
E-mail
Edit
Submit button
Clear form button.
 

First example without DOM

 
Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
 
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.
 

Second example without DOM

 
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
 
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.
 

The difference

 
As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
 
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
 
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
 
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
 
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
 
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
 
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
 
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
 
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
 
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.
 

Helping the sighted to guide you

 
So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
 
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
 
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?
 

The bottom line

 
Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.
 

What are your thoughts?

 
Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.
 
Chris.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"