Date   

Re: The DOM Debate

Adriani Botez
 

apart from the addon audiothemes 3d when needed, I am using for example the ultrabook Dell xps13. I aggree, it might a bit more expensive than acer or so. But the thing is that on this laptop the screen is also a touch sensitive surface. That means I can explore a website by moving the finger on the screen while working as usual with keyboard and mouse.


Best
Adriani

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 03.12.2017 um 07:22 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

Again:
 
I couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for your contribution to this thread.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Well, let‘s advance it a bit. As far as I understand the key discussion points, it is all focused on how sighted people present information to us (the link at the bottom on the right) and our ability to find it by the screen reader. But we need to present information to sighted people aswel. And here is the point. What if you have a sighted customer who searches something on a website and needs your help? You say, the link is called Contact. And the customer says, hm I cannot find it. Then you have to approximately know where it is located on the page.
 Another example is power point. If you exercise in learning structures, then you will be able to ilustrate things in a simple way. It is not easy to get into it, I aggree. But it is not the best solution to find a way to always avoid this. Because structuring is a very important skill.


Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 21:19 schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:

Your response to my message yesterday appeared to say that because of exceptions, what I was saying wasn't an adequate approach.  That may not have been what you meant.  But there is no way to account for all exceptions.  The best that can be done is to have a general understanding of how web pages are laid out so that, when someone says, as in your example, the link is on the right, that the blind person will know, if it matters in this particular case, that that means he will find the link in the bloc at the bottom of the page, as he sees it.  Also, the NVDA feature that allows you to see the screen as originally organized uses the phrase, when supported.  I don't know what that means or how many pages that means aren't shown as organized when this feature is on.  I hope we hear from a knowledgeable person in the area we are discussing. 
 
If I misunderstand your position, please clarify it.  Your example of two contact links yesterday appeared to blame reorganization for the problem.  I think the problem is caused by bad training.  If you know the structure of web pages and there are two contact links, the second one you get to using the find command will be in the bloc at the bottom of the web page in general and that is the one the person would use. Of course, there may be exceptions, but you can't accommodate all exceptions to make everything completely predictable in determining how a page is displayed..
 
You could use the show as on screen settting but that wouldn't necessarily make things easier or faster in any meaningful way.  Suppose the contact link is then shown to the blind person on the right side of the screen.  Then the blind person would, as I understand how this would work regarding find, use the first result, not the second.  But how is that easier?  It's just not repeating the search one time, a trivial use of time.  Beyond a certain point the user is responsible for dealing with various situations but if the user doesn't get proper training, the user can't assume the responsibility required because he doesn't even know what the problem is or what can be done.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is occuring.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

If that is what you were trying to say, then why are you disagreeing with me?  Having a page be shown as a sighted person sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.  it's knowing how a page is organized so that when  a sighted person says, the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page.  This link can be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation on the page may be easier.  Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate either because it implies that the dom is responsible for reorganization.  The dom doesn't require reorganization.  Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes navigation easier in most contexts.  But the dom doesn't prefer one organization over another.  The dom is just a way of making screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen.  How it is organized is up to the screen-reader designer.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

For many many users it is important to know somehow the structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work together  with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures and so on.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 18:07 schrieb JM Casey <crystallogic@...>:

Hi.

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



Re: setting up your win ten computer

Hareth <hareth4m@...>
 

when it asks you to type a password for your windows user account just
don't type any, leave it blank, and hit the next button.

On 12/3/17, Arlene <nedster66@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay, I'll go take a look. Cause I heard a friend saying you can't escape
it. That was what I thought. I'll find the instructions.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
New
Zealand
Sent: December-02-17 8:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] setting up your win ten computer



Hi



Is it already setup? and you had to make a account? if so it can be removed
after windows has been setup. Just remember what you put in as the details.
Have a look on the nvda audio tutorials page down the bottom of it it shows
you how to do it i think there might also be written instructions. Even
though they were for windows 7 and 8 it does the same on windows 10.





If you are doing a new install you have to do it as a local account it is
hard to do with narrator it may or may not see it but even if you do setup
up a account it can be removed as mentioned.



http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nvda%20audio%20tutorials.html

the heading is called how to remove the windows 8 log on screen it looks as
though it is only audio unless there is one for 7 just under it some where.
But am sure it works on 10 etc.



Gene nz





On 12/3/2017 4:46 PM, Arlene wrote:

Hi list: When you set up your win ten computer, can you bypass adding a
password to start the windows login? I know with 7 you can. If you can
avoid the password for win ten. How does one do it? Do you just say you
want
it? Then when you get into your computer. Can you delete it? or are you
stuck with it? I hope I'm making scense. Thanks and have a good day.



--
Image NVDA
certified expert

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material
at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the
NVDA
screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
please
visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals
from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert
exam.




Re: The DOM Debate

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 


Again:
 
I couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for your contribution to this thread.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Well, let‘s advance it a bit. As far as I understand the key discussion points, it is all focused on how sighted people present information to us (the link at the bottom on the right) and our ability to find it by the screen reader. But we need to present information to sighted people aswel. And here is the point. What if you have a sighted customer who searches something on a website and needs your help? You say, the link is called Contact. And the customer says, hm I cannot find it. Then you have to approximately know where it is located on the page.
 Another example is power point. If you exercise in learning structures, then you will be able to ilustrate things in a simple way. It is not easy to get into it, I aggree. But it is not the best solution to find a way to always avoid this. Because structuring is a very important skill.


Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 21:19 schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:

Your response to my message yesterday appeared to say that because of exceptions, what I was saying wasn't an adequate approach.  That may not have been what you meant.  But there is no way to account for all exceptions.  The best that can be done is to have a general understanding of how web pages are laid out so that, when someone says, as in your example, the link is on the right, that the blind person will know, if it matters in this particular case, that that means he will find the link in the bloc at the bottom of the page, as he sees it.  Also, the NVDA feature that allows you to see the screen as originally organized uses the phrase, when supported.  I don't know what that means or how many pages that means aren't shown as organized when this feature is on.  I hope we hear from a knowledgeable person in the area we are discussing. 
 
If I misunderstand your position, please clarify it.  Your example of two contact links yesterday appeared to blame reorganization for the problem.  I think the problem is caused by bad training.  If you know the structure of web pages and there are two contact links, the second one you get to using the find command will be in the bloc at the bottom of the web page in general and that is the one the person would use. Of course, there may be exceptions, but you can't accommodate all exceptions to make everything completely predictable in determining how a page is displayed..
 
You could use the show as on screen settting but that wouldn't necessarily make things easier or faster in any meaningful way.  Suppose the contact link is then shown to the blind person on the right side of the screen.  Then the blind person would, as I understand how this would work regarding find, use the first result, not the second.  But how is that easier?  It's just not repeating the search one time, a trivial use of time.  Beyond a certain point the user is responsible for dealing with various situations but if the user doesn't get proper training, the user can't assume the responsibility required because he doesn't even know what the problem is or what can be done.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is occuring.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

If that is what you were trying to say, then why are you disagreeing with me?  Having a page be shown as a sighted person sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.  it's knowing how a page is organized so that when  a sighted person says, the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page.  This link can be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation on the page may be easier.  Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate either because it implies that the dom is responsible for reorganization.  The dom doesn't require reorganization.  Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes navigation easier in most contexts.  But the dom doesn't prefer one organization over another.  The dom is just a way of making screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen.  How it is organized is up to the screen-reader designer.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

For many many users it is important to know somehow the structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work together  with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures and so on.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 18:07 schrieb JM Casey <crystallogic@...>:

Hi.

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



Re: setting up your win ten computer

Arlene
 

Okay, I’ll go take a look. Cause I heard a friend saying you can’t escape it. That was what I thought. I’ll find the instructions.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New Zealand
Sent: December-02-17 8:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] setting up your win ten computer

 

Hi

 

Is it already setup? and you had to make a account? if so it can be removed after windows has been setup. Just remember what you put in as the details. Have a look on the nvda audio tutorials page down the bottom of it it shows you how to do it i think there might also be written instructions. Even though they were for windows 7 and 8 it does the same on windows 10.

 

 

If you are doing a new install you have to do it as a local account it is hard to do with narrator it may or may not see it but even if you do setup up a account it can be removed as mentioned.

 

http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nvda%20audio%20tutorials.html

the heading is called how to remove the windows 8 log on screen it looks as though it is only audio unless there is one for 7 just under it some where. But am sure it works on 10 etc.

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 12/3/2017 4:46 PM, Arlene wrote:

Hi list: When you set up your win ten computer, can you bypass adding a password to start the windows login?  I know with 7 you can. If you can avoid the password for win ten. How does one do it? Do you just say you want it? Then when you get into your computer. Can you delete it? or are you stuck with it?  I hope I’m making scense. Thanks and have a good day. 

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Installing eclipse

Bogdan Onyshenko
 

You can also use the comand prompt to turn on java access bridge. 
1. navigate to your java folder the command will look somethin like this
cd c:/program files/java/jdk1.7.0_51/bin
2. then type jabswitch -enable
where cd is stands for change directory command
jdk1.7.0_51 is your java version you can type your version instead just check out your java directory name using your favorite file manager or command dir /p while you switched into your java folder this will list all files and subdirectories in current folder then just cd to your java subdirectory.
bin is the directory where all Java executables are saved.
jabswitch is a binary that accepts 1 parameter enable or disable it is responsible for turning on and off Java access bridge.
-enable it is a parameter that we are passing to that executable.
So in 2nd command we are calling jabswitch.exe and passing to it parameter enable.
After success message just reload NVDA and that's it.

p.s. Good luck in programming.


Re: Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

Gene
 

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: zahra
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

sorry i ment old portable version of firefox, not old esr versions.
because old esr versions, are downloadable from mozilla.org

On 12/1/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists@...> wrote:
> How peculiar. The thread will live as long as you do I suspect!
>  I was befuzzled as I could not duplicate any of it. Which just goes to show
>
> that the first move should always to be to disable the add ons.
>  Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 5:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
> links not activating
>
>
> Didn’t realise this thread was still alive. In anyone cared, I solved the
> issue; the problem was the webvisum firefox extension. After I disabled most
>
> of its features, web pages  started loading correctly.
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
> Sent: December 1, 2017 6:14 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
> links not activating
>
>
>
> I never checked.  I know you love old insecure programs but why, would
> anyone use old versions of ESR Firefox?  They are just as vulnerable and
> insecure as old regular versions of the browser.  If you are going to use an
>
> old insecure version of Firefox ESR, why not just do the simple thing and
> keep using version 56 of the regular version of Firefox? The whole point of
>
> using the ESR version is to have a program that works properly and is still
>
> receiving security updates.  What sense does it make to use old versions of
>
> the program when there are so many old and insecure regular versions of
> Firefox that work properly?  That's going the long way around to achieve the
>
> same end, an old, insecure, vulnerable browser.
>
>
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: zahra <mailto:nasrinkhaksar3@...>
>
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 2:54 AM
>
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
> links not activating
>
>
>
> hi gene.
> thanks extremely for explaning about advantages of portable firefox
> versions.
> does the website keep the download link for all old version of firefox
> like its owner mozilla?
> i mean does it have all versions of firefox since the first portable
> version?
> or it only keeps the latest versions and removed old ones?
> God bless you for helping you as always.
>
> On 11/22/17, JM Casey <crystallogic@...> wrote:
>> Hi Brian.
>>
>> The links are all still there, and screen-reader working perfectly. They
>> will activate in a new tab or window if I use the context menu options on
>> the links. Pressing enter does not a thing, though. However, I know that
>> the
>> screen-reader (nvda, and jaws too in fact) are aware of the links. I
>> hesitated to post this at all because I'm quite sure it's not really a
>> screen-reader issue.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
>> Brian's
>> Mail list account via Groups.Io
>> Sent: November 22, 2017 6:00 AM
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
>> links not activating
>>
>> And are you saying this affects nvda and other screenreaders?
>>
>>
>> After all if a link works and then does not work that would suggest that
>> the
>> page you are reading is not actually in focus for the reader or has
>> something transparent over it. I assume toggling the focus and browse
>> mode
>> still  work and that single letter nav ie k will still work? If you
>> cursor
>> along a line do you hear the word link at any point and will it then
>> operate?
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> bglists@...
>> Sent via blueyonder.
>> Please address personal email to:-
>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>> in the display name field.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@...>
>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:08 PM
>> Subject: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
>> links
>> not activating
>>
>>
>> Hello everyone. Really sorry about this as it's not strictly speaking an
>> nVDA question, but I know Firefox has been a hot topic round these parts
>> for
>> quite some time, so it doesn't seem entirely inappropriate. As I said in
>> a
>> previous message, I was using FF 57 and it was working -- ok. But as
>> other
>> users pointed out, it was kind of slow and weird. And as much as I'm
>> growing
>> to really like nVDA, it did annoy me that I could not use it with JAWS at
>> all. So, I went and got Firefox ESR, as many on this list have also done,
>> and installed it. But now I have a weird issue, and it's one I seem to
>> remember coming up against with firefox before, but I can't recall for
>> the
>> life of me what I had to do to correct it.
>>
>> Basically, links will not activate as they normally do. I go to a site
>> with
>> ctrl-l, and can maybe click on one link as I normally would, with the
>> enter
>> key. Goodreads.com is an example of a site I visit frequently which now
>> does
>> this. I can search for a book title and get a list of results, but then
>> clicking on that item appears to do absolutely nothing. The mobile
>> facebook
>> site is doing the same thing, as have other sites, so I know it isn't
>> site-specific, but something on my end. The links *will* activate if I
>> select "open in new tab" from the context menu, but I don't want to have
>> to
>> do this every time, obviously. My only thought is that something got
>> changed
>> when I installed ESR over 57, a setting or something. This certainly
>> wasn't
>> happening before yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
> holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
> in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
> indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
> best website for studying islamic book in different languages
> www.al-islam.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org




Re: Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with links not activating

 

sorry i ment old portable version of firefox, not old esr versions.
because old esr versions, are downloadable from mozilla.org

On 12/1/17, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
How peculiar. The thread will live as long as you do I suspect!
I was befuzzled as I could not duplicate any of it. Which just goes to show

that the first move should always to be to disable the add ons.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@ca.inter.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
links not activating


Didn’t realise this thread was still alive. In anyone cared, I solved the
issue; the problem was the webvisum firefox extension. After I disabled most

of its features, web pages started loading correctly.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 1, 2017 6:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
links not activating



I never checked. I know you love old insecure programs but why, would
anyone use old versions of ESR Firefox? They are just as vulnerable and
insecure as old regular versions of the browser. If you are going to use an

old insecure version of Firefox ESR, why not just do the simple thing and
keep using version 56 of the regular version of Firefox? The whole point of

using the ESR version is to have a program that works properly and is still

receiving security updates. What sense does it make to use old versions of

the program when there are so many old and insecure regular versions of
Firefox that work properly? That's going the long way around to achieve the

same end, an old, insecure, vulnerable browser.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: zahra <mailto:nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com>

Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 2:54 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
links not activating



hi gene.
thanks extremely for explaning about advantages of portable firefox
versions.
does the website keep the download link for all old version of firefox
like its owner mozilla?
i mean does it have all versions of firefox since the first portable
version?
or it only keeps the latest versions and removed old ones?
God bless you for helping you as always.

On 11/22/17, JM Casey <crystallogic@ca.inter.net> wrote:
Hi Brian.

The links are all still there, and screen-reader working perfectly. They
will activate in a new tab or window if I use the context menu options on
the links. Pressing enter does not a thing, though. However, I know that
the
screen-reader (nvda, and jaws too in fact) are aware of the links. I
hesitated to post this at all because I'm quite sure it's not really a
screen-reader issue.



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: November 22, 2017 6:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
links not activating

And are you saying this affects nvda and other screenreaders?


After all if a link works and then does not work that would suggest that
the
page you are reading is not actually in focus for the reader or has
something transparent over it. I assume toggling the focus and browse
mode
still work and that single letter nav ie k will still work? If you
cursor
along a line do you hear the word link at any point and will it then
operate?

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@ca.inter.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 11:08 PM
Subject: [nvda] Now that I've got Firefox ESR, there's a problem with
links
not activating


Hello everyone. Really sorry about this as it's not strictly speaking an
nVDA question, but I know Firefox has been a hot topic round these parts
for
quite some time, so it doesn't seem entirely inappropriate. As I said in
a
previous message, I was using FF 57 and it was working -- ok. But as
other
users pointed out, it was kind of slow and weird. And as much as I'm
growing
to really like nVDA, it did annoy me that I could not use it with JAWS at
all. So, I went and got Firefox ESR, as many on this list have also done,
and installed it. But now I have a weird issue, and it's one I seem to
remember coming up against with firefox before, but I can't recall for
the
life of me what I had to do to correct it.

Basically, links will not activate as they normally do. I go to a site
with
ctrl-l, and can maybe click on one link as I normally would, with the
enter
key. Goodreads.com is an example of a site I visit frequently which now
does
this. I can search for a book title and get a list of results, but then
clicking on that item appears to do absolutely nothing. The mobile
facebook
site is doing the same thing, as have other sites, so I know it isn't
site-specific, but something on my end. The links *will* activate if I
select "open in new tab" from the context menu, but I don't want to have
to
do this every time, obviously. My only thought is that something got
changed
when I installed ESR over 57, a setting or something. This certainly
wasn't
happening before yesterday. Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.













--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org










--
we have not sent you but as a mercy to the entire creation.
holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration from prophet Mohammad is:
indeed, imam husayn is the beacon of guidance and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
www.al-islam.org


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Michael Capelle <mcapelle@...>
 

i am using an i5 with no issues, i have seen many i7's, and see no difference in speed or performance.

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 10:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

Well what I like about amd chips is that they usually have an
intergrated radion card in them.




On 3/12/2017 5:34 p.m., tim wrote:
You AMD equal to Intel is wy off, because I7 is 7 gen, I5 is 6 gen and I3 is 8 gen. Anything below this is slow and very out dated. Now only the I7 supports hyperthreding and the I5 only has quad turboboost and the I3 is only dual core.
So I5 or better is good with Intel.
now AMD just go by the processor speed.
Now if your building a box like I am now. You try to get that CPU as high as you can in a already built box to lower the cost. If your just getting something like a Dell it don’t really matter your going for price.
Now I’m just wanting everything except drives and ram. I can get those cheaper then a Dell box has and better.
On Dec 2, 2017, at 1:33 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a machien wiht 32 gigs of ram and an I think i5 4ghz processer and 6 gig graphics card. It rocks and nvda runs just swimingly on it.

Take care

On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Governor staten <govsta@gmail.com <mailto:govsta@gmail.com>> wrote:

One thing is for sure. You need at least 6 or 8 gb of ram. Netbooks no longer cut it, at all. You could possibly find some refurbished computers on Amazon.



I have an Asus netbook with 4 gb of ram (not expansible), 500 gb hard drive, 2.16 ghz dual-core Intel Celeron processor. Graphics and audio are built-in. I need to get a new computer, as well. I'm interested in this discussion for that reason.







On 11/30/2017 11:26 AM, Deborah Armstrong wrote:
** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***
As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think, so please post your thoughts.
It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer, because I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of laptops, you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems, create art or engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those who just surf the web, read email and do some light word processing, reviewers maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just fine. In fact, reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews of inexpensive Windows laptops for just that reason.
In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877 was a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in that family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom. It had a reasonable fast 500GB hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful at running multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and Outlook without latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing. Compared to the computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy tasks at home.
What's changed today might best be covered in this post:
https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/ <>
which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow, despite my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run unnecessary background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully refreshed.
I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but that the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's foundation. It needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to handle the new, dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably on slower processors.
But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still fairly fast. For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my laptop but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour to convert on my desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on the laptop. Handbrake is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.
But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't -- seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email in Thunderbird.
The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows 10, but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something read back to me.
My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my job.
So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things I do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd buy something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM. Clearly that would result in a machine that's even slower than my existing laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!
I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending a fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I use a screen reader.
What do others think?
--Debee


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

Well what I like about amd chips is that they usually have an intergrated radion card in them.

On 3/12/2017 5:34 p.m., tim wrote:
You AMD equal to Intel is wy off, because I7 is 7 gen, I5 is 6 gen and I3 is 8 gen. Anything below this is slow and very out dated. Now only the I7 supports hyperthreding and the I5 only has quad turboboost and the I3 is only dual core.
So I5 or better is good with Intel.
now AMD just go by the processor speed.
Now if your building a box like I am now. You try to get that CPU as high as you can in a already built box to lower the cost. If your just getting something like a Dell it don’t really matter your going for price.
Now I’m just wanting everything except drives and ram. I can get those cheaper then a Dell box has and better.
On Dec 2, 2017, at 1:33 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a machien wiht 32 gigs of ram and an I think i5 4ghz processer and 6 gig graphics card. It rocks and nvda runs just swimingly on it.

Take care

On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Governor staten <govsta@gmail.com <mailto:govsta@gmail.com>> wrote:

One thing is for sure. You need at least 6 or 8 gb of ram. Netbooks no longer cut it, at all. You could possibly find some refurbished computers on Amazon.



I have an Asus netbook with 4 gb of ram (not expansible), 500 gb hard drive, 2.16 ghz dual-core Intel Celeron processor. Graphics and audio are built-in. I need to get a new computer, as well. I'm interested in this discussion for that reason.







On 11/30/2017 11:26 AM, Deborah Armstrong wrote:
** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***
As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think, so please post your thoughts.
It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer, because I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of laptops, you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems, create art or engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those who just surf the web, read email and do some light word processing, reviewers maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just fine. In fact, reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews of inexpensive Windows laptops for just that reason.
In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877 was a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in that family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom. It had a reasonable fast 500GB hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful at running multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and Outlook without latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing. Compared to the computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy tasks at home.
What's changed today might best be covered in this post:
https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/ <>
which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow, despite my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run unnecessary background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully refreshed.
I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but that the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's foundation. It needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to handle the new, dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably on slower processors.
But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still fairly fast. For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my laptop but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour to convert on my desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on the laptop. Handbrake is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.
But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't -- seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email in Thunderbird.
The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows 10, but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something read back to me.
My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my job.
So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things I do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd buy something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM. Clearly that would result in a machine that's even slower than my existing laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!
I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending a fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I use a screen reader.
What do others think?
--Debee


Re: setting up your win ten computer

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


Is it already setup? and you had to make a account? if so it can be removed after windows has been setup. Just remember what you put in as the details. Have a look on the nvda audio tutorials page down the bottom of it it shows you how to do it i think there might also be written instructions. Even though they were for windows 7 and 8 it does the same on windows 10.



If you are doing a new install you have to do it as a local account it is hard to do with narrator it may or may not see it but even if you do setup up a account it can be removed as mentioned.


http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nvda%20audio%20tutorials.html

the heading is called how to remove the windows 8 log on screen it looks as though it is only audio unless there is one for 7 just under it some where. But am sure it works on 10 etc.


Gene nz



On 12/3/2017 4:46 PM, Arlene wrote:

Hi list: When you set up your win ten computer, can you bypass adding a password to start the windows login?  I know with 7 you can. If you can avoid the password for win ten. How does one do it? Do you just say you want it? Then when you get into your computer. Can you delete it? or are you stuck with it?  I hope I’m making scense. Thanks and have a good day. 


--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

tim
 

You AMD equal to Intel is wy off, because I7 is 7 gen, I5 is 6 gen and I3 is 8 gen. Anything below this is slow and very out dated. Now only the I7 supports hyperthreding and the I5 only has quad turboboost and the I3 is only dual core.
So I5 or better is good with Intel.
now AMD just go by the processor speed.
Now if your building a box like I am now. You try to get that CPU as high as you can in a already built box to lower the cost. If your just getting something like a Dell it don’t really matter your going for price.
Now I’m just wanting everything except drives and ram. I can get those cheaper then a Dell box has and better. 

On Dec 2, 2017, at 1:33 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

I have a machien wiht 32 gigs of ram and an I think i5 4ghz processer and 6 gig graphics card. It rocks and nvda runs just swimingly on it.

Take care

On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Governor staten <govsta@...> wrote:

One thing is for sure. You need at least 6 or 8 gb of ram. Netbooks no longer cut it, at all. You could possibly find some refurbished computers on Amazon. 


I have an Asus netbook with 4 gb of ram (not expansible), 500 gb hard drive, 2.16 ghz dual-core Intel Celeron processor. Graphics and audio are built-in. I need to get a new computer, as well. I'm interested in this discussion for that reason.





On 11/30/2017 11:26 AM, Deborah Armstrong wrote:
** This was also cross-posted to Cavi-discuss ***
 
As a screen reader user, I'm finding selecting a new laptop is more difficult than ever before. I'm very curious to see what others think, so please post your thoughts.
 
It used to be that I didn't feel I needed a super fast computer, because I wasn't editing video. And nowadays if you look at reviews of laptops, you'll see that people who edit photos, use CAD systems, create art or engage in heavy gaming need fast machines. But for those who just surf the web, read email and do some light word processing, reviewers maintain that a slower and cheaper laptop will work just fine. In fact, reviews of chromebooks are often mixed in with reviews of inexpensive Windows laptops for just that reason.
 
In 2012 my Acer netbook (An AO-756) was the fastest ultraportable I could buy for under $500. Its processor, a 1.4GHZ Intel Celeron 877 was a dual core from the Sandy Bridge family -- the slowest one in that family, but it wasn't a much slower Atom.    It had a reasonable fast 500GB hard drive. I added 8GB of RAM making it even more useful at running multiple tasks efficiently. I could use Word, Excel and Outlook without latency and of course I did a lot of web surfing. Compared to the computers at work, it was a bit slower, but like the reviewers said, it didn't matter, since I didn't do computation-heavy tasks at home.
 
What's changed today might best be covered in this post:
    https://www.marcozehe.de/2017/09/29/rethinking-web-accessibility-on-windows/
 
which discusses how screen readers access the web. Today, if I have to work with a dynamic website, my little ACER is unbearably slow, despite my having carefully maintained it so it doesn't run unnecessary background tasks, and so that Windows is regularly fully refreshed.  
 
I am convinced the problem is not so much that the PC is slow, but that the screen reader has become a palace built on a shack's foundation. It needs everything it can squeeze out of the processor to handle the new, dynamic web. Seems both NVDA and JAWS fail miserably on slower processors.
 
But if a task does not depend on a screen reader, the machine is still fairly fast.  For example, when I OCR something in Kurzweil 1000, the laptop is just as fast as my much more powerful desktop computers at work. And running something like Handbrake is indeed slower on my laptop but not so slow it cannot be used. A video that takes an hour to convert on my desktop at work might take fifteen extra minutes on the laptop. Handbrake is often used as an informal benchmarking tool.
 
But where instant responsiveness counts, my Netbook falls short. I expect to hear something when I press a key. Often, today, I don't -- seems like I am always waiting for the screen reader to pull itself together and find the focus, or cope with a dynamic partial page refresh, or the next column in the spreadsheet, or read my next email in Thunderbird. 
 
The Acer actually got fractionally faster when I upgraded to Windows 10, but even so, I mostly wait after pressing a key to hear something read back to me. 
 
My work computers which run Core i7 Pentiums respond immediately, even though they are saddled with far more background tasks required by my job.
 
So if I were to trust reviews, this claim that for the kinds of things I do at home on the laptop I don't need a very powerful machine, I'd buy something with an Atom processor, a 128GB SSD and 2GB of RAM. Clearly that would result in a machine that's even slower than my existing laptop. Plus, it would have a quarter of the storage!
 
I guess the dilemma I'm struggling with here is how to avoid spending a fortune and still get an ultraportable that has no latency when I use a screen reader.
 
What do others think?
 
--Debee



Re: setting up your win ten computer

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Arleen,

 

I think there's a way to log in without having to type your password. If I remember correctly, Gene NZ has a section about that on his site which is www.accessibilitycentral.net.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Arlene
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 7:47 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] setting up your win ten computer

 

Hi list: When you set up your win ten computer, can you bypass adding a password to start the windows login?  I know with 7 you can. If you can avoid the password for win ten. How does one do it? Do you just say you want it? Then when you get into your computer. Can you delete it? or are you stuck with it?  I hope I’m making scense. Thanks and have a good day. 


setting up your win ten computer

Arlene
 

Hi list: When you set up your win ten computer, can you bypass adding a password to start the windows login?  I know with 7 you can. If you can avoid the password for win ten. How does one do it? Do you just say you want it? Then when you get into your computer. Can you delete it? or are you stuck with it?  I hope I’m making scense. Thanks and have a good day. 


Re: The DOM Debate

Adriani Botez
 

Well, let‘s advance it a bit. As far as I understand the key discussion points, it is all focused on how sighted people present information to us (the link at the bottom on the right) and our ability to find it by the screen reader. But we need to present information to sighted people aswel. And here is the point. What if you have a sighted customer who searches something on a website and needs your help? You say, the link is called Contact. And the customer says, hm I cannot find it. Then you have to approximately know where it is located on the page.
 Another example is power point. If you exercise in learning structures, then you will be able to ilustrate things in a simple way. It is not easy to get into it, I aggree. But it is not the best solution to find a way to always avoid this. Because structuring is a very important skill.


Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 21:19 schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:

Your response to my message yesterday appeared to say that because of exceptions, what I was saying wasn't an adequate approach.  That may not have been what you meant.  But there is no way to account for all exceptions.  The best that can be done is to have a general understanding of how web pages are laid out so that, when someone says, as in your example, the link is on the right, that the blind person will know, if it matters in this particular case, that that means he will find the link in the bloc at the bottom of the page, as he sees it.  Also, the NVDA feature that allows you to see the screen as originally organized uses the phrase, when supported.  I don't know what that means or how many pages that means aren't shown as organized when this feature is on.  I hope we hear from a knowledgeable person in the area we are discussing. 
 
If I misunderstand your position, please clarify it.  Your example of two contact links yesterday appeared to blame reorganization for the problem.  I think the problem is caused by bad training.  If you know the structure of web pages and there are two contact links, the second one you get to using the find command will be in the bloc at the bottom of the web page in general and that is the one the person would use. Of course, there may be exceptions, but you can't accommodate all exceptions to make everything completely predictable in determining how a page is displayed..
 
You could use the show as on screen settting but that wouldn't necessarily make things easier or faster in any meaningful way.  Suppose the contact link is then shown to the blind person on the right side of the screen.  Then the blind person would, as I understand how this would work regarding find, use the first result, not the second.  But how is that easier?  It's just not repeating the search one time, a trivial use of time.  Beyond a certain point the user is responsible for dealing with various situations but if the user doesn't get proper training, the user can't assume the responsibility required because he doesn't even know what the problem is or what can be done.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is occuring.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

If that is what you were trying to say, then why are you disagreeing with me?  Having a page be shown as a sighted person sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.  it's knowing how a page is organized so that when  a sighted person says, the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page.  This link can be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation on the page may be easier.  Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate either because it implies that the dom is responsible for reorganization.  The dom doesn't require reorganization.  Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes navigation easier in most contexts.  But the dom doesn't prefer one organization over another.  The dom is just a way of making screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen.  How it is organized is up to the screen-reader designer.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was attempting to say initially.
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

For many many users it is important to know somehow the structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work together  with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures and so on.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 02.12.2017 um 18:07 schrieb JM Casey <crystallogic@...>:

Hi.

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"



Re: Installing eclipse

Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
 

HI.  Do not download the .exe version as the installer is not at all accessible.  Download the .zip version, then if you already have the latest Java installed, unzip it to your main drive, drive C in most cases.  Also, remember to switch access bridge on.  To do that, go to Ease Of Access center, navigate to the link that says "Use your computer without a display" or something to that effect, then go to the access bridge check box and check it.  That should do the trick.  Cheers!

On 3/12/2017 8:12 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Hello everyone,


I've heard that Eclipse is a popular IDE among VI people, so I've decided to give it a try. However, it's installer doesn't seem to be accessible to me. How do you guys install it?


So I successfully installed JDK 9 64-bit (since eclipse installer asked for it).


I downloaded an official Eclipse oxygen 64-bit installer from here:

http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/

And when I start it, it shows me a window with unlabelled buttons, editboxes, etc.


Am I doing anything wrong? Any suggestions will be appreciated.


Thank you

Tony




Re: narrator question

Pascal Lambert
 

Thanks David for taking the time to answer.

Pascal

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 7:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Narrator is already in Windows 10.

In terms of terminology  I think launch  run and load are pretty mukch synonyums  in this context to describe starting a program.

In ancient dayhs of using Basic on BBC Micro and CPM we used to talk about loading programs into memory to run them.

I  guess I am  therefore showing my age in using the term load in relation to starting a program.

David Griffith

 

 

My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts

 

From: Pascal Lambert
Sent: 02 December 2017 13:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Hi David,

Please forgive my ignorance.  Do you mean launch Narrator or download and install it?

Thanks

Blessings

Pascal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 5:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

This is  a little odd as I have just loaded Narrator – pressed Caps lock M and it read all your email out to me with no problem.

Ditto for this email reply which I  am writing using Narrator..

It sounds like there is something intercepting your use of the caps lock key as a proper modifier.

You don’t by any chance have NVDA or another program loaded which is grabbing hold of the caps lock key do you?

NVDA should be unloaded before attempting to use Narrator.

Alternatively some people on laptops remap the insert key to cpas lock which may also create problems.

David Griffith

My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts

 

From: anthony borg
Sent: 02 December 2017 10:31
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Hi tony

Apologies I wanted to say when I use key stroke, caps lock plus m, it doesn’t readanything.

Maybe I to use the letter m, with another key storke instead the caps lock?

Thanks in advance

Anthony  

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Ballou
Sent: 02 December 2017 07:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Hi,

 

Try this keystroke instead,

Caps lock + M. Pressing Windows-m takes you to the desktop. Hope this helps.

 

Tony

 

On 12/1/2017 8:58 PM, anthony borg wrote:

Hello david

Could you please explain to me what I should use in narrator to read all?

Because I used windows key plus m, and didn’t work.

Thanks in advance

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: 01 December 2017 01:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: narrator question

 

Thank you so very much. I am very interested.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Fred Mellender
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 4:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I got some good advice from a blind user of ChessSpeak.

 

So, I am trying to make the program almost entirely mouse free, with input via keyboard shortcuts and speech, and output via speech.

 

Please pass on any other advice.

 

I should have a beta test version in a week or so, but not all the desirable interface features will be in that version.  This program is for Windows 7 and later, only. The speech input and output only works in English. This program will always be free.

 

Look at the Users' Guide, Youtube video, and my webpage for details about this program.  All of the links were included in a previous post to this group.

This program allows a person to play a game of chess against the computer.  You can download the current version from my website.

 

Regards,

 

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 1:34 PM, anthony borg <anthonyborg001@...> wrote:

Hi can you please give me some more info about that chess program as I am very interesting to get it please?

Regards

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of fredm73@...
Sent: 29 November 2017 16:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I am the author of a free chess playing program, ChessSpeak.  I have a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXo8GzIORQ) and a Users' Guide (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik). This program allows for speech input from the player and replies with voice output. It has been used by many players over the past few years.

I wrote the program so that a sighted person could play with a regular chessboard, across the room from the computer, without using the mouse or keyboard (although it is not entirely hands free). I  did not intend this application for blind people, but have discovered there is interest in the blind community. ChessSpeak was developed without my awareness of NVDA.  One user told me he is using NVDA and that led me to this group.

How can I make ChessSpeak more friendly to blind people?  What are some very general, and then some specific guidelines?  I have read the Developers' Guide (https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/developerGuide.html) and understand it in a general way, although my Python skills are not strong.

If anyone could offer me specific suggestions or help for my application I would appreciated it. If anyone wants to develop the NVDA linkage to ChessSpeak that would be wonderful.



 

--

Fred Mellender
Rochester, NY

 

 

 

 


Re: narrator question

David Griffith
 

Narrator is already in Windows 10.

In terms of terminology  I think launch  run and load are pretty mukch synonyums  in this context to describe starting a program.

In ancient dayhs of using Basic on BBC Micro and CPM we used to talk about loading programs into memory to run them.

I  guess I am  therefore showing my age in using the term load in relation to starting a program.

David Griffith

 

 

My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts

 

From: Pascal Lambert
Sent: 02 December 2017 13:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Hi David,

Please forgive my ignorance.  Do you mean launch Narrator or download and install it?

Thanks

Blessings

Pascal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 5:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

This is  a little odd as I have just loaded Narrator – pressed Caps lock M and it read all your email out to me with no problem.

Ditto for this email reply which I  am writing using Narrator..

It sounds like there is something intercepting your use of the caps lock key as a proper modifier.

You don’t by any chance have NVDA or another program loaded which is grabbing hold of the caps lock key do you?

NVDA should be unloaded before attempting to use Narrator.

Alternatively some people on laptops remap the insert key to cpas lock which may also create problems.

David Griffith

My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts

 

From: anthony borg
Sent: 02 December 2017 10:31
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Hi tony

Apologies I wanted to say when I use key stroke, caps lock plus m, it doesn’t readanything.

Maybe I to use the letter m, with another key storke instead the caps lock?

Thanks in advance

Anthony  

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Ballou
Sent: 02 December 2017 07:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] narrator question

 

Hi,

 

Try this keystroke instead,

Caps lock + M. Pressing Windows-m takes you to the desktop. Hope this helps.

 

Tony

 

On 12/1/2017 8:58 PM, anthony borg wrote:

Hello david

Could you please explain to me what I should use in narrator to read all?

Because I used windows key plus m, and didn’t work.

Thanks in advance

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: 01 December 2017 01:01
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: narrator question

 

Thank you so very much. I am very interested.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Fred Mellender
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2017 4:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I got some good advice from a blind user of ChessSpeak.

 

So, I am trying to make the program almost entirely mouse free, with input via keyboard shortcuts and speech, and output via speech.

 

Please pass on any other advice.

 

I should have a beta test version in a week or so, but not all the desirable interface features will be in that version.  This program is for Windows 7 and later, only. The speech input and output only works in English. This program will always be free.

 

Look at the Users' Guide, Youtube video, and my webpage for details about this program.  All of the links were included in a previous post to this group.

This program allows a person to play a game of chess against the computer.  You can download the current version from my website.

 

Regards,

 

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 1:34 PM, anthony borg <anthonyborg001@...> wrote:

Hi can you please give me some more info about that chess program as I am very interesting to get it please?

Regards

Anthony

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of fredm73@...
Sent: 29 November 2017 16:49
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Please help a Chess program developer

 

I am the author of a free chess playing program, ChessSpeak.  I have a YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NXo8GzIORQ) and a Users' Guide (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IIazPm57vNei4w51fnxBpUzSRnuL58ncBn3xXhSCEik). This program allows for speech input from the player and replies with voice output. It has been used by many players over the past few years.

I wrote the program so that a sighted person could play with a regular chessboard, across the room from the computer, without using the mouse or keyboard (although it is not entirely hands free). I  did not intend this application for blind people, but have discovered there is interest in the blind community. ChessSpeak was developed without my awareness of NVDA.  One user told me he is using NVDA and that led me to this group.

How can I make ChessSpeak more friendly to blind people?  What are some very general, and then some specific guidelines?  I have read the Developers' Guide (https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/developerGuide.html) and understand it in a general way, although my Python skills are not strong.

If anyone could offer me specific suggestions or help for my application I would appreciated it. If anyone wants to develop the NVDA linkage to ChessSpeak that would be wonderful.



 

--

Fred Mellender
Rochester, NY

 

 

 

 


Installing eclipse

Tony Malykh
 

Hello everyone,


I've heard that Eclipse is a popular IDE among VI people, so I've decided to give it a try. However, it's installer doesn't seem to be accessible to me. How do you guys install it?


So I successfully installed JDK 9 64-bit (since eclipse installer asked for it).


I downloaded an official Eclipse oxygen 64-bit installer from here:

http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/

And when I start it, it shows me a window with unlabelled buttons, editboxes, etc.


Am I doing anything wrong? Any suggestions will be appreciated.


Thank you

Tony


Re: The DOM Debate

JM Casey <crystallogic@...>
 

Gene: This is true. I have recently got some e-books on Windows 10. Most of these come from Microsoft Press and they explain a lot about the OS, including all sorts of neat tricks. They certainly don’t shirk keyboard navigation even though they are written for mainstream users.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 1:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Some people are experimenters and learn through many ways, documentation, experimenting, looking around, and perhaps others I haven't thought of at the moment.  Many people aren't experimenters and need more instruction.  also, experimenters and those who learn  many ways, often miss useful knowledge by not getting more organized instruction.  I learned a lot about Windows by experimenting and looking at screen-reader documentation. But I didn't know certain crucial things.  it wasn't until I got some organized instruction from Cathy Anne Murtha's material that I learned that much more is possible than just navigating by the first letter when jumping to files and folders in a list or tree view.  You can type as much of the name of the item as you wish.  If I have twelve items in a list of folders and files that begin with the letter t, I can type as much of the name of an item as I want and jump right to it.  Generally, typing two or three letters of the name is enough.  This can be used on the desktop as well.  Whenever I see questions from people asking how to organize things in a certain way on the desktop, I'm suspicious that they don't know this.  Why bother about the order of most things on the desktop when I can type tap to move to Tapin Radio, my c to move to my computer, etc.  My Computer is no longer the name, but the example helps illustrate the point. 

 

That's why even people who are more or less self-taught would likely benefit from looking over some really good material.  You don't know what you might not know that may be of real value. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: JM Casey

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 11:07 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Hi.

 

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Speech player in Espeak fixes Hindi bug

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

OK so in the latest snaps and RC certain non English, mainly Hindi characters stop Espeak from working until you reboot the screenreader, however I loaded in Spech Player in Espeak add on into the latest master snap and the rc and adjusting the voice back to Quincy which is what I use, resolved the issue.This to me seems odd as I was under the impression that the add on used resources of Espeak to make that new Edward test voice, so how come it fixes the problem?
Brian

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