Date   
Re: Some misstakes in new rc NVDA version

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

It would also be good to see a very clear message somewhere permanent about somewhere we can interact with the current Espeak team and shall we say, not be sort of ignored as noise.
Brian

bglists@...
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Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some misstakes in new rc NVDA version


We changed from using eSpeak NG 1.49.1 in 2017.3 to using 1.49.2, but for
those not using the Next or Master snaps, the RC builds (or the final
2017.4 when it comes out) are likely the first time they've tried it. So,
as Brian guessed, it's likely that the issues here are not specific to this
RC as such, but to the change in eSpeak version, since the RCs are a bit
more widely distributed. It would be good to get confirmation from Marco
though.

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 1:57 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

I got the impressing it was RCs in this series actually.
I have certainly noticed some strangenesses in Espeak on recent snapshots
since the last two updates of espeak NG, none for the better particularly
in English hence my work around mentioned in my reply.

I guess the most noticable is the way it says the word for in some
circumstances, making it into fur. Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Antony Stone" <
antony.stone@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some misstakes in new rc NVDA version


Your subject line refers to the new RC version.

Is this problem something new in the latest RC version and did not exist
in
earlier (RC or otherwise) versions, or does the same problem also exist in
older (especially standard release) versions of NVDA?


Antony.

On Monday 04 December 2017 at 11:43:33, Marco Oros wrote:

Hi!

At the first, where can I inform about this thing of NVDA misstakes of,
for example Espeak NG?

Because I have noticed, that new Mandarin Chinese is badly pronounced in
NVDA in that way, that syllable and some kind of number. Maybe, this is
problem of Espeak NG, but I am not shure.

Nextly, arabic letter meem is pronounced in Espeak, like meetar, but I
think, that It is incorrect.

Where can I issued those things?

Thank You.

Marco Oros
--
"If I've told you once, I've told you a million times - stop
exaggerating!"

Please reply to the
list;
please *don't* CC
me.






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess

nvda 2017.3 and opening multiple applications

Marisane Moruthanyana
 

Morning guys

I am Marisane from SA.

I use nvda as my screen reader on my win10 laptop.

I have just bought the laptop.

It came with win10.

I, before, used jaws without this problem.

I cannot open more than one application without nvda freezing.

It freezes and continuously goes unresponsive as well as even decides
to sometimes stop talking.

It is frustrating me as it is now my only screen reader to access
applications in win10.

Your assistance in this regard is appreciated in advance.


May I also ask this question?

How does one know that one's laptop has windows10 fall creators?

Please help.

Regards
Marisane

On 12/5/17, Rayn Darren <rayndarren@...> wrote:
Evening everyone,

I joined two groups today and cannot for the life of me find how to post to
them. I don't know if this is an NVDA things or and I'm missing the obvious
thing. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Rayn


Re: Some misstakes in new rc NVDA version

John Isige
 

Is that actually a thing? I mean is there literally a speech synthesizer called X Synth? Because googling gives me nothing.

On 12/4/2017 22:11, Shaun Everiss wrote:
No I don't have a link.

Not for that anyway.




On 5/12/2017 4:45 p.m., Quentin Christensen wrote:
Hi Sean,

Broadly speaking, we update the eSpeak for the same reason most things get
updated - because the new version may fix errors (such as the ones noted at
the start of this thread) or include new languages. Of course, as noted by
this thread, sometimes an update causes other things to break, and
obviously that is unintentional, and often not known until we get reports
like this.

Re X Synth, do you have a link please?

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Shaun Everiss <@smeveriss> wrote:

Well to be honest why do we bother to always update stable to the latest
espeak ng.

In fact why do we use espeak ng at all, we should find a stable version of
x synth and use it.

The only reason I'd even update the synth is if it became a problem or
security risk





On 5/12/2017 10:33 a.m., Quentin Christensen wrote:

We changed from using eSpeak NG 1.49.1 in 2017.3 to using 1.49.2, but for
those not using the Next or Master snaps, the RC builds (or the final
2017.4 when it comes out) are likely the first time they've tried it. So,
as Brian guessed, it's likely that the issues here are not specific to
this
RC as such, but to the change in eSpeak version, since the RCs are a bit
more widely distributed. It would be good to get confirmation from Marco
though.

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 1:57 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

I got the impressing it was RCs in this series actually.
I have certainly noticed some strangenesses in Espeak on recent snapshots
since the last two updates of espeak NG, none for the better particularly
in English hence my work around mentioned in my reply.

I guess the most noticable is the way it says the word for in some
circumstances, making it into fur. Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Antony Stone" <
antony.stone@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some misstakes in new rc NVDA version


Your subject line refers to the new RC version.

Is this problem something new in the latest RC version and did not exist
in
earlier (RC or otherwise) versions, or does the same problem also exist
in
older (especially standard release) versions of NVDA?


Antony.

On Monday 04 December 2017 at 11:43:33, Marco Oros wrote:

Hi!

At the first, where can I inform about this thing of NVDA misstakes of,
for example Espeak NG?

Because I have noticed, that new Mandarin Chinese is badly pronounced
in
NVDA in that way, that syllable and some kind of number. Maybe, this is
problem of Espeak NG, but I am not shure.

Nextly, arabic letter meem is pronounced in Espeak, like meetar, but I
think, that It is incorrect.

Where can I issued those things?

Thank You.

Marco Oros

--
"If I've told you once, I've told you a million times - stop
exaggerating!"

Please reply to the
list;
please *don't*
CC
me.






Re: Some misstakes in new rc NVDA version

 

No I don't have a link.

Not for that anyway.

On 5/12/2017 4:45 p.m., Quentin Christensen wrote:
Hi Sean,

Broadly speaking, we update the eSpeak for the same reason most things get
updated - because the new version may fix errors (such as the ones noted at
the start of this thread) or include new languages. Of course, as noted by
this thread, sometimes an update causes other things to break, and
obviously that is unintentional, and often not known until we get reports
like this.

Re X Synth, do you have a link please?

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Shaun Everiss <@smeveriss> wrote:

Well to be honest why do we bother to always update stable to the latest
espeak ng.

In fact why do we use espeak ng at all, we should find a stable version of
x synth and use it.

The only reason I'd even update the synth is if it became a problem or
security risk





On 5/12/2017 10:33 a.m., Quentin Christensen wrote:

We changed from using eSpeak NG 1.49.1 in 2017.3 to using 1.49.2, but for
those not using the Next or Master snaps, the RC builds (or the final
2017.4 when it comes out) are likely the first time they've tried it. So,
as Brian guessed, it's likely that the issues here are not specific to
this
RC as such, but to the change in eSpeak version, since the RCs are a bit
more widely distributed. It would be good to get confirmation from Marco
though.

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 1:57 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

I got the impressing it was RCs in this series actually.
I have certainly noticed some strangenesses in Espeak on recent snapshots
since the last two updates of espeak NG, none for the better particularly
in English hence my work around mentioned in my reply.

I guess the most noticable is the way it says the word for in some
circumstances, making it into fur. Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Antony Stone" <
antony.stone@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some misstakes in new rc NVDA version


Your subject line refers to the new RC version.

Is this problem something new in the latest RC version and did not exist
in
earlier (RC or otherwise) versions, or does the same problem also exist
in
older (especially standard release) versions of NVDA?


Antony.

On Monday 04 December 2017 at 11:43:33, Marco Oros wrote:

Hi!

At the first, where can I inform about this thing of NVDA misstakes of,
for example Espeak NG?

Because I have noticed, that new Mandarin Chinese is badly pronounced
in
NVDA in that way, that syllable and some kind of number. Maybe, this is
problem of Espeak NG, but I am not shure.

Nextly, arabic letter meem is pronounced in Espeak, like meetar, but I
think, that It is incorrect.

Where can I issued those things?

Thank You.

Marco Oros

--
"If I've told you once, I've told you a million times - stop
exaggerating!"

Please reply to the
list;
please *don't*
CC
me.





Posting to Google groups

Rayn Darren
 

Evening everyone,

 

I joined two groups today and cannot for the life of me find how to post to them. I don’t know if this is an NVDA things or and I’m missing the obvious thing. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Rayn


Virus-free. www.avast.com

Re: Some misstakes in new rc NVDA version

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Sean,

Broadly speaking, we update the eSpeak for the same reason most things get updated - because the new version may fix errors (such as the ones noted at the start of this thread) or include new languages.  Of course, as noted by this thread, sometimes an update causes other things to break, and obviously that is unintentional, and often not known until we get reports like this.

Re X Synth, do you have a link please?

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
Well to be honest why do we bother to always update stable to the latest espeak ng.

In fact why do we use espeak ng at all, we should find a stable version of x synth and use it.

The only reason I'd even update the synth is if it became a problem or security risk





On 5/12/2017 10:33 a.m., Quentin Christensen wrote:
We changed from using eSpeak NG 1.49.1 in 2017.3 to using 1.49.2, but for
those not using the Next or Master snaps, the RC builds (or the final
2017.4 when it comes out) are likely the first time they've tried it.  So,
as Brian guessed, it's likely that the issues here are not specific to this
RC as such, but to the change in eSpeak version, since the RCs are a bit
more widely distributed.  It would be good to get confirmation from Marco
though.

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 1:57 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

I got the impressing it was RCs in this series actually.
I have certainly noticed some strangenesses in Espeak on recent snapshots
since the last two updates of espeak NG, none for the better particularly
in English hence my work around mentioned in my reply.

I guess the most noticable is the way it says the word for in some
circumstances, making it into fur.  Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Antony Stone" <
antony.stone@....it>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some misstakes in new rc NVDA version


Your subject line refers to the new RC version.
Is this problem something new in the latest RC version and did not exist
in
earlier (RC or otherwise) versions, or does the same problem also exist in
older (especially standard release) versions of NVDA?


Antony.

On Monday 04 December 2017 at 11:43:33, Marco Oros wrote:

Hi!
At the first, where can I inform about this thing of NVDA misstakes of,
for example Espeak NG?

Because I have noticed, that new Mandarin Chinese is badly pronounced in
NVDA in that way, that syllable and some kind of number. Maybe, this is
problem of Espeak NG, but I am not shure.

Nextly, arabic letter meem is pronounced in Espeak, like meetar, but I
think, that It is incorrect.

Where can I issued those things?

Thank You.

Marco Oros

--
"If I've told you once, I've told you a million times - stop
exaggerating!"

                                                   Please reply to the
list;
                                                         please *don't* CC
me.















--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

Re: Some misstakes in new rc NVDA version

 

Well to be honest why do we bother to always update stable to the latest espeak ng.

In fact why do we use espeak ng at all, we should find a stable version of x synth and use it.

The only reason I'd even update the synth is if it became a problem or security risk

On 5/12/2017 10:33 a.m., Quentin Christensen wrote:
We changed from using eSpeak NG 1.49.1 in 2017.3 to using 1.49.2, but for
those not using the Next or Master snaps, the RC builds (or the final
2017.4 when it comes out) are likely the first time they've tried it. So,
as Brian guessed, it's likely that the issues here are not specific to this
RC as such, but to the change in eSpeak version, since the RCs are a bit
more widely distributed. It would be good to get confirmation from Marco
though.

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 1:57 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

I got the impressing it was RCs in this series actually.
I have certainly noticed some strangenesses in Espeak on recent snapshots
since the last two updates of espeak NG, none for the better particularly
in English hence my work around mentioned in my reply.

I guess the most noticable is the way it says the word for in some
circumstances, making it into fur. Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Antony Stone" <
antony.stone@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some misstakes in new rc NVDA version


Your subject line refers to the new RC version.
Is this problem something new in the latest RC version and did not exist
in
earlier (RC or otherwise) versions, or does the same problem also exist in
older (especially standard release) versions of NVDA?


Antony.

On Monday 04 December 2017 at 11:43:33, Marco Oros wrote:

Hi!
At the first, where can I inform about this thing of NVDA misstakes of,
for example Espeak NG?

Because I have noticed, that new Mandarin Chinese is badly pronounced in
NVDA in that way, that syllable and some kind of number. Maybe, this is
problem of Espeak NG, but I am not shure.

Nextly, arabic letter meem is pronounced in Espeak, like meetar, but I
think, that It is incorrect.

Where can I issued those things?

Thank You.

Marco Oros
--
"If I've told you once, I've told you a million times - stop
exaggerating!"

Please reply to the
list;
please *don't* CC
me.




Re: Will NVDA work if I Enable virtualization-based protection of code integrity

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Pranav,

I must admit I haven't tried it.  It may operate at a deeper level than we do, in which case NVDA may be unaffected, but as I say, I haven't tried it, so if you have or do, I'd be interested in your findings.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 11:46 AM, Pranav Lal <pranav.lal@...> wrote:
Hi Brian,

I do not know. I have seen this only in Windows 10.

Pranav

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 4:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Will NVDA work if I Enable virtualization-based
protection of code integrity

Is this what I might call paranoia node? :-)  I've never heard of it, is it
just in Windows 10?
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pranav Lal" <pranav.lal@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 1:12 AM
Subject: [nvda] Will NVDA work if I Enable virtualization-based protection
of code integrity


> Hi all,
>
> Will NVDA work if I Enable virtualization-based protection of code
> integrity by following the steps at the following link?
> https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/enable-virtua
> lizati
> on-based-protection-of-code-integrity
> Pranav
>
>
>
>










--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

Re: Will NVDA work if I Enable virtualization-based protection of code integrity

Pranav Lal
 

Hi Brian,

I do not know. I have seen this only in Windows 10.

Pranav

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 4:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Will NVDA work if I Enable virtualization-based
protection of code integrity

Is this what I might call paranoia node? :-) I've never heard of it, is it
just in Windows 10?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pranav Lal" <pranav.lal@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 1:12 AM
Subject: [nvda] Will NVDA work if I Enable virtualization-based protection
of code integrity


Hi all,

Will NVDA work if I Enable virtualization-based protection of code
integrity by following the steps at the following link?
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-security/enable-virtua
lizati
on-based-protection-of-code-integrity
Pranav



Re: The DOM Debate

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Having a play with it it works with desk top apps but gave it a whirl with metro apps and saved a position or 2 or i thought i had when you go to go back to the saved points there are none. I am guessing it does not let the coordinates through to golden cursor to be saved for metro apps.


Otherwise it works well. I did notice the parts for saving a coordinate then bringing back up that same list was in reverse still.


It is funny i have spoken to some new users of nvda that have come across from other screen readers and are not aware of the add on and what it can do.

Gene nz

 


On 12/5/2017 1:22 PM, David Moore wrote:

Hi guys!

I use Golden Cursor all the time to use a software math package to tutor math and to display it. The coordinates do depend on the resolution of the screen. It is the most powerful Add on I use, because of saving the coordinates where you want the mouse pointer to go to!

I am so glad that it will be kept up. You really can access controls with it that using the mouse features in NVDA will not access.

Take care, guys

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Richard Kuzma via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2017 6:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Hi guys,

I used the golden cursor about a year ago,

And if I remember correctly the resolution does matter,

If you change it your co-ordinates change.

Thanks and let me know if this turns out wrong

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 2:48 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Hi

In short with golden cursor it lets you move the mouse around with  the arrow keys plus 2 others. Plus part of it also is when turned on it will tell you the pixel cordinates etc so you know where things are on the screen. This can be turned on and off.

It also lets you say in one of my scanner programs there were buttons  or parts i could not get to so for a example there might of been ones for scanning, ocring etc i could locate them then add like a hot point give it a name within that program i could do a few of them and then say the next time i went in where ever those buttons etc were marked i could bring up a list of those coordinates that were marked then press the enter key on it and the mouse would route straight to that position. I could do that to any of the ones marked in that program but also was not only limited to that program.

I think also you could restrict it to windows etc as well but never used that side of it.

With nvda you can move the mouse around physically and hear what is spoken below it but with golden cursor it takes it even further.

I now have the knfb reader software on the computers so the old scanner program is not used now as the knfb reader is accessible.

by the way i am not sure if it got changed but 2 of the directions for shortcuts were put around the wrong way. I would have to go back in to see if it was changed.

Gene nz

 

On 12/4/2017 2:35 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

You know... I heard about Golden Cursor, but never totally understood the concept of what it did exactly, even after reading it's description.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 3:35 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

And I forgot to mention the addon golden cursor. It is incredibly good at presenting you the screen as it is. And it makes the learning process very enjoyable. However, these things can certainly be improved, as it is the case for almost everything. Nothing is 100% perfect.

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 03.12.2017 um 09:26 schrieb Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...>:

apart from the addon audiothemes 3d when needed, I am using for example the ultrabook Dell xps13. I aggree, it might a bit more expensive than acer or so. But the thing is that on this laptop the screen is also a touch sensitive surface. That means I can explore a website by moving the finger on the screen while working as usual with keyboard and mouse.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 03.12.2017 um 07:22 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

Again:

 

I couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:28 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Well, let‘s advance it a bit. As far as I understand the key discussion points, it is all focused on how sighted people present information to us (the link at the bottom on the right) and our ability to find it by the screen reader. But we need to present information to sighted people aswel. And here is the point. What if you have a sighted customer who searches something on a website and needs your help? You say, the link is called Contact. And the customer says, hm I cannot find it. Then you have to approximately know where it is located on the page.

 Another example is power point. If you exercise in learning structures, then you will be able to ilustrate things in a simple way. It is not easy to get into it, I aggree. But it is not the best solution to find a way to always avoid this. Because structuring is a very important skill.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 02.12.2017 um 21:19 schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:

Your response to my message yesterday appeared to say that because of exceptions, what I was saying wasn't an adequate approach.  That may not have been what you meant.  But there is no way to account for all exceptions.  The best that can be done is to have a general understanding of how web pages are laid out so that, when someone says, as in your example, the link is on the right, that the blind person will know, if it matters in this particular case, that that means he will find the link in the bloc at the bottom of the page, as he sees it.  Also, the NVDA feature that allows you to see the screen as originally organized uses the phrase, when supported.  I don't know what that means or how many pages that means aren't shown as organized when this feature is on.  I hope we hear from a knowledgeable person in the area we are discussing. 

 

If I misunderstand your position, please clarify it.  Your example of two contact links yesterday appeared to blame reorganization for the problem.  I think the problem is caused by bad training.  If you know the structure of web pages and there are two contact links, the second one you get to using the find command will be in the bloc at the bottom of the web page in general and that is the one the person would use. Of course, there may be exceptions, but you can't accommodate all exceptions to make everything completely predictable in determining how a page is displayed..

 

You could use the show as on screen settting but that wouldn't necessarily make things easier or faster in any meaningful way.  Suppose the contact link is then shown to the blind person on the right side of the screen.  Then the blind person would, as I understand how this would work regarding find, use the first result, not the second.  But how is that easier?  It's just not repeating the search one time, a trivial use of time.  Beyond a certain point the user is responsible for dealing with various situations but if the user doesn't get proper training, the user can't assume the responsibility required because he doesn't even know what the problem is or what can be done.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:44 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is occuring.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

If that is what you were trying to say, then why are you disagreeing with me?  Having a page be shown as a sighted person sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.  it's knowing how a page is organized so that when  a sighted person says, the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page.  This link can be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation on the page may be easier.  Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate either because it implies that the dom is responsible for reorganization.  The dom doesn't require reorganization.  Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes navigation easier in most contexts.  But the dom doesn't prefer one organization over another.  The dom is just a way of making screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen.  How it is organized is up to the screen-reader designer.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was attempting to say initially.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

For many many users it is important to know somehow the structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work together  with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures and so on.

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 02.12.2017 um 18:07 schrieb JM Casey <crystallogic@...>:

Hi.

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 


--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

Re: The DOM Debate

David Moore
 

Hi guys!

I use Golden Cursor all the time to use a software math package to tutor math and to display it. The coordinates do depend on the resolution of the screen. It is the most powerful Add on I use, because of saving the coordinates where you want the mouse pointer to go to!

I am so glad that it will be kept up. You really can access controls with it that using the mouse features in NVDA will not access.

Take care, guys

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Richard Kuzma via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2017 6:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Hi guys,

I used the golden cursor about a year ago,

And if I remember correctly the resolution does matter,

If you change it your co-ordinates change.

Thanks and let me know if this turns out wrong

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 2:48 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Hi

In short with golden cursor it lets you move the mouse around with  the arrow keys plus 2 others. Plus part of it also is when turned on it will tell you the pixel cordinates etc so you know where things are on the screen. This can be turned on and off.

It also lets you say in one of my scanner programs there were buttons  or parts i could not get to so for a example there might of been ones for scanning, ocring etc i could locate them then add like a hot point give it a name within that program i could do a few of them and then say the next time i went in where ever those buttons etc were marked i could bring up a list of those coordinates that were marked then press the enter key on it and the mouse would route straight to that position. I could do that to any of the ones marked in that program but also was not only limited to that program.

I think also you could restrict it to windows etc as well but never used that side of it.

With nvda you can move the mouse around physically and hear what is spoken below it but with golden cursor it takes it even further.

I now have the knfb reader software on the computers so the old scanner program is not used now as the knfb reader is accessible.

by the way i am not sure if it got changed but 2 of the directions for shortcuts were put around the wrong way. I would have to go back in to see if it was changed.

Gene nz

 

On 12/4/2017 2:35 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

You know... I heard about Golden Cursor, but never totally understood the concept of what it did exactly, even after reading it's description.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 3:35 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

And I forgot to mention the addon golden cursor. It is incredibly good at presenting you the screen as it is. And it makes the learning process very enjoyable. However, these things can certainly be improved, as it is the case for almost everything. Nothing is 100% perfect.

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 03.12.2017 um 09:26 schrieb Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...>:

apart from the addon audiothemes 3d when needed, I am using for example the ultrabook Dell xps13. I aggree, it might a bit more expensive than acer or so. But the thing is that on this laptop the screen is also a touch sensitive surface. That means I can explore a website by moving the finger on the screen while working as usual with keyboard and mouse.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 03.12.2017 um 07:22 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

Again:

 

I couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:28 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Well, let‘s advance it a bit. As far as I understand the key discussion points, it is all focused on how sighted people present information to us (the link at the bottom on the right) and our ability to find it by the screen reader. But we need to present information to sighted people aswel. And here is the point. What if you have a sighted customer who searches something on a website and needs your help? You say, the link is called Contact. And the customer says, hm I cannot find it. Then you have to approximately know where it is located on the page.

 Another example is power point. If you exercise in learning structures, then you will be able to ilustrate things in a simple way. It is not easy to get into it, I aggree. But it is not the best solution to find a way to always avoid this. Because structuring is a very important skill.

 

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 02.12.2017 um 21:19 schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:

Your response to my message yesterday appeared to say that because of exceptions, what I was saying wasn't an adequate approach.  That may not have been what you meant.  But there is no way to account for all exceptions.  The best that can be done is to have a general understanding of how web pages are laid out so that, when someone says, as in your example, the link is on the right, that the blind person will know, if it matters in this particular case, that that means he will find the link in the bloc at the bottom of the page, as he sees it.  Also, the NVDA feature that allows you to see the screen as originally organized uses the phrase, when supported.  I don't know what that means or how many pages that means aren't shown as organized when this feature is on.  I hope we hear from a knowledgeable person in the area we are discussing. 

 

If I misunderstand your position, please clarify it.  Your example of two contact links yesterday appeared to blame reorganization for the problem.  I think the problem is caused by bad training.  If you know the structure of web pages and there are two contact links, the second one you get to using the find command will be in the bloc at the bottom of the web page in general and that is the one the person would use. Of course, there may be exceptions, but you can't accommodate all exceptions to make everything completely predictable in determining how a page is displayed..

 

You could use the show as on screen settting but that wouldn't necessarily make things easier or faster in any meaningful way.  Suppose the contact link is then shown to the blind person on the right side of the screen.  Then the blind person would, as I understand how this would work regarding find, use the first result, not the second.  But how is that easier?  It's just not repeating the search one time, a trivial use of time.  Beyond a certain point the user is responsible for dealing with various situations but if the user doesn't get proper training, the user can't assume the responsibility required because he doesn't even know what the problem is or what can be done.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:44 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

When ever did I say that I was disagreeing with you? The only thing that I disagreed about is your statement which I very likely have apparently misunderstood that all/most websites are laid out with the exact format you described. I'm not sure where the disconnect is occuring.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 1:57 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

If that is what you were trying to say, then why are you disagreeing with me?  Having a page be shown as a sighted person sees it isn't the important factor when working with sighted people.  it's knowing how a page is organized so that when  a sighted person says, the link is on the right, the blind person will know that on the right means the bloc of links he/she sees at the bottom of the page.  This link can be found with the find command just as easily either way and other navigation on the page may be easier.  Calling this the dom debate isn't accurate either because it implies that the dom is responsible for reorganization.  The dom doesn't require reorganization.  Reorganization is done by screen-readers by design, because it makes navigation easier in most contexts.  But the dom doesn't prefer one organization over another.  The dom is just a way of making screen-readers aware of where information is on the screen.  How it is organized is up to the screen-reader designer.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:39 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

Thank you! This precisely 100% what I was attempting to say initially.

---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 12:41 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

 

For many many users it is important to know somehow the structure how information is being presented because they comunicate and work together  with sighted people. Yes, it is very important to find content for one self as fast as possible. But we should not forget to learn structures and so on.

 

Best

Adriani

 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 02.12.2017 um 18:07 schrieb JM Casey <crystallogic@...>:

Hi.

Not sure I really have anything constructive to contribute to this debate. I just wanted to say that whatever screen-reader I was using, I always use the find command, and always have. No tutorials needed. What could be simpler? There are pages I want to read through, and pages where I just want to get stuff done. This is often the fastest and most efficient way, and I feel like this would naturally occur to most users. It sounds like you are saying it doesn’t, and that surprises me – but I’ve not ever received much training for anything, as I always preferred to try things and find out for myself.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: December 2, 2017 6:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Nothing is perfect.  Search is a very underused and very effective feature that screen-readers offer and it is at times more effective than using other methods.  I didn't say to always use find and I didn't say to always explore web pages and I didn't say to repeatedly explore the same page when looking for the same thing.  Using find is not exploring the web page in the sense that you spend a lot of time looking in detail at the page.  At times, this is necessary.  It often isn't, and here are examples. 

If you are looking for an add to cart button, you can use the b command to move through buttons.  Depending on page layout, this may be faster than using search or it may be slower.  Why do you have to explore a page again every time?  You may have to explore a page, you may not.  Doing what I suggested, searching for a word like contact and repeating the search isn't exploring the page.  You are looking for a specific thing.  Also, there are many patterns that a lot of web pages follow.  if you want to listen to a radio station and you are on the site, if you search for the word "listen" from the top of the page, you are very likely to find a link with the word "listen" in it, such as "listen live."  What if a site has a link that says, clic, to listen or some such variation.  That's why I strongly advocate against using the links list on unfamiliar sites.  If a link has a word that is common for such links such as listen, it will often be the first word.  It won't always.  Search will find such a link.  The links list, if you move by first letter navigation, won't find it where you expect and you may waste time and effort looking through a page when one search for the word "listen" might well have found it. 

Contact is another example.  Almost every site that provides a way for you to contact someone, such as a letters editor, etc. will have the word contact as part of the link.  As in my previous example, contact will often be the first word.  Not always. 

The inadequate training  a lot of people get teaches movement by heading and how to use the skip blocs of links command.  But it doesn't anywhere nearly teach or emphasize using the find command and thus cheats blind people and makes it much more difficult for them to use sites where headings or other quick navigation techniques don't yield good results.  And there are times, such as I've discussed, when using other techniques isn't the best first approach because they often work but not always. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 2:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Agreed but many people tend to fall back on their memory of a page as even
if they did explore it at the start, to do so every time is a bit slow.
Of course some pages like Google web mail has some shortcuts, but to me I
find such things still sluggish to use.

Amazon seem to often have interesting variations on a theme where certain
buttons can be a link instead, presumably due to their attempts to get you
to buy other stuff when you selected a particular one. For the sighted this
looks obvious, but would you  actually  really want to explore the page
every time considering how busy their site is with rotating suggestions and
the like? I agree search is a good thing to use but I've been fooled more
than once by there being several buying choices all with add to basket
buttons for example.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains
this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't
seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site
causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.
Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of
confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it
happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word
"download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.
Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once
from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even
minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


Hi Gene,

\

I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she
knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn
it together."  That speaks volumes.






On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:

  Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely
accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding
users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my
analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a
lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material
explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it
is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and
questions people raise about using the Internet.

  Gene
  ----- Original Message -----

  From: Ron Canazzi
  Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
  To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
  Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


  Hi Gene,




  Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick
navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the
advantages of DOM to coexist.






  On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:

    If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem
and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind
people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted
person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then
we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content
toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then
a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A
sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in
another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.

    So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below
the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees
links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links,
and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column.

    So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap
feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for
the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how
many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being
on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if
there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is
only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if
you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss
the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your
place.

    You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and
usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.

    Gene
    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Christopher-Mark Gilland
    Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
    To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
    Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


    Adriani,

    You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully
considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough
statements.
    ---
    Christopher Gilland
    Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries

    http://www.gshministry.org
    (980) 500-9575
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Adriani Botez
      To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
      Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
      Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


      Hello,


      I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to
following reasons:
      - By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself
how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link
label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait
until the last link on the tab is being announced
      - If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to
press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like
you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem
is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by
link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
      - When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5
links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have
listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
      - There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen
presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the
position where the object is located on the screen.


      Best
      Adriani



      Von meinem iPhone gesendet

      Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland
<clgilland07@...>:


        For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it
very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M.
Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason
for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a
subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the
matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and
civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your
response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war
debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever
is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

        First off, what is DOM?

        DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one
way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information
from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice,
for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a
representation of the content on the screen.

        So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

        Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow
which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times,
more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in
between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the
entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used
is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.

        Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated
aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few
advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

        Beauty and the Beast

        One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious
from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology
to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the
material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of
this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this
argument.

        Here's a practical example of DOM.

        Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in
the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome,
etc.

        On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as
horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the
following:

          a.. Home
          b.. About Us
          c.. Blog
          d.. Shop
          e.. Support
          f.. Contact Us

        To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the
following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line
by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any
further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of
horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.

        Link Home
        Link About Us
        Link Blog
        Link Shop
        Link Support
        Link Contact Us

        Here's another example.

        You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first
name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely
would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name
        Edit
        Last name
        Edit
        E-mail
        Edit
        Submit button
        Clear form button.

        First example without DOM

        Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is
maximized before doing so.

        Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link
Contact Us.

        Second example without DOM

        Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.

        First name Edit
        Last name Edit
        E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

        The difference

        As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two
examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own
line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you
never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make
this really easy in plain english.

        Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are
being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went
horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.

        The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word,
as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own
dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its
own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on
multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width
of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential
problem?

        The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point
still stands in existance.

        We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a
print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first
name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then,
horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.

        For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a
Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to
the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends
on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a
second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is
where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of
you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it
here.

        Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted,
as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the
form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.

        Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit
box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be
visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields,
on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and
make more sense? It definitely should to most people.

        Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.

        Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one
on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go
so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual
learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this
is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

        Helping the sighted to guide you

        So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's
assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service
representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the
upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design,
and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in
consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web
designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to
e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within
the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second
link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second
link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone
number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in
my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top
of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've
seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a
dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do
an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to
bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as
an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM
method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly!
notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really
convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know
which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in
DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.

        Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.

        In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both
via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display,
that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen.
You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc.
on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense
what I'm saying?

        The bottom line

        Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone
should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like
JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be
extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive
you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem
dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a
try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to
it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like
me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not
using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want,
or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of
the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode,
end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just
accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary
memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model.
Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking
up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

        What are your thoughts?

        Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

        Chris.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 

Re: Some misstakes in new rc NVDA version

Quentin Christensen
 

We changed from using eSpeak NG 1.49.1 in 2017.3 to using 1.49.2, but for those not using the Next or Master snaps, the RC builds (or the final 2017.4 when it comes out) are likely the first time they've tried it.  So, as Brian guessed, it's likely that the issues here are not specific to this RC as such, but to the change in eSpeak version, since the RCs are a bit more widely distributed.  It would be good to get confirmation from Marco though.

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 1:57 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:
I got the impressing it was RCs in this series actually.
I have certainly noticed some strangenesses in Espeak on recent snapshots since the last two updates of espeak NG, none for the better particularly in English hence my work around mentioned in my reply.

I guess the most noticable is the way it says the word for in some circumstances, making it into fur.  Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Antony Stone" <antony.stone@....it>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some misstakes in new rc NVDA version


Your subject line refers to the new RC version.

Is this problem something new in the latest RC version and did not exist in
earlier (RC or otherwise) versions, or does the same problem also exist in
older (especially standard release) versions of NVDA?


Antony.

On Monday 04 December 2017 at 11:43:33, Marco Oros wrote:

Hi!

At the first, where can I inform about this thing of NVDA misstakes of,
for example Espeak NG?

Because I have noticed, that new Mandarin Chinese is badly pronounced in
NVDA in that way, that syllable and some kind of number. Maybe, this is
problem of Espeak NG, but I am not shure.

Nextly, arabic letter meem is pronounced in Espeak, like meetar, but I
think, that It is incorrect.

Where can I issued those things?

Thank You.

Marco Oros

--
"If I've told you once, I've told you a million times - stop exaggerating!"

                                                  Please reply to the list;
                                                        please *don't* CC me.










--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

Re: nvda with a youtube to mp3 converter program

Dan Thompson
 

TYay Jason, I got the program to work and you are very right, it is easy.  Thank you very very much.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jason Milyo
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 11:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda with a youtube to mp3 converter program

 

Hi, there I use Pontes Media Downloader it’s easy to set up and you can paste links and just tab of what format you want the video to be converted too and go from there promps are accessible.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Dan Thompson
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2017 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] nvda with a youtube to mp3 converter program

 

Hi All,

I have been using the free youtube to mp3 converter for several years.  But suddenly I can not seem to get the url to paste into the converter and auto download into the music folder.    I am using verson 3.3.12.59 build 5.5.   It seems the new version of this program from  DVDVideoSoft  in the new 4.62 version has become very unaccessible.

I wrote a chapter in a book using my laptop with nvda and version 3.12.5 build 5-05.  However, now with the new verson nothing downloads automatically even if I get that bock check, and that is quit challenging itself.  The menus are rather unaccessible.

Is there another youtube to mp3 converter that is easy to use. I work with seniors, (55 and older), most around 65 years.

I will be greatful for any advice.9files to

 

How to setup a news ticker or chat window in HTML5 for the nvda screenreader?

myonara
 

Dear all,

I want to create dynamic content of a webpage in a way, the screen reader can only present the new content to the user.
I think, this issue is common the news tickers and chat windows in HTML5
Are there coding guidelines for these scrolling parts of a web site?
If not, should I create an opensource project for these two?

As an adminstrator of a German, text-based  MultiUserDungeon, and I want to build an open source WEBMUD Interface,
a possibility to play the mud from an webinterface with the nvda reader.

Kind Regards
Myonara.

Re: Installing eclipse

Tony Malykh
 

I think I figured out where to find zip releases of eclipse. It's not trivial, so let me leave the instructions here in case someone is reading this thread from the archives.


1. Go to eclipse downloads page:

https://www.eclipse.org/downloads/

2. Click "Download packages"

3. Click "Other builds"

4. In the list of builds you probably want to select the latest stable release, 4.7.1a in my case.

5. Then it'll take you to the page with all the build options. Select zip version for windows.


Tony

On 12/3/2017 1:38 PM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Sorry for being silly but could you point me to a zip version of eclipse? I checked everywhere on the official eclipse website, and I could only find 32-bit and 64-bit exe installers for windows.


Thanks

Tony



On 12/3/2017 3:19 AM, Jaffar Sidek wrote:
As long as you do not install Java 9 but Java 8 update 51, you are ok.  32 bit Java is still present with this latest Java 8 update. Cheers!.  ,


On 3/12/2017 6:08 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
is there not an issue over the 32 Access bridge not being available any more though, or was I asleep during the last debate on here about this?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jaffar Sidek" <jaffar.sidek10@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Installing eclipse


HI. Do not download the .exe version as the installer is not at all accessible. Download the .zip version, then if you already have the latest Java installed, unzip it to your main drive, drive C in most cases. Also, remember to switch access bridge on. To do that, go to Ease Of Access center, navigate to the link that says "Use your computer without a display" or something to that effect, then go to the access bridge check box and check it. That should do the trick. Cheers!


On 3/12/2017 8:12 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Hello everyone,


I've heard that Eclipse is a popular IDE among VI people, so I've decided to give it a try. However, it's installer doesn't seem to be accessible to me. How do you guys install it?


So I successfully installed JDK 9 64-bit (since eclipse installer asked for it).


I downloaded an official Eclipse oxygen 64-bit installer from here:

http://www.eclipse.org/downloads/

And when I start it, it shows me a window with unlabelled buttons, editboxes, etc.


Am I doing anything wrong? Any suggestions will be appreciated.


Thank you

Tony










Re: nvda with a youtube to mp3 converter program

Dan Thompson
 

Hi Jason,

I found Pontes_Media_Downloader_Install_v2.exe  at

https://download.freedownloadmanager.org/Windows-PC/Pontes-Media-Downloader/FREE-2.0.5423.21416.html

Is this the correct version?

Also could give me some directions on how to use the program. Thank you very much.

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jason Milyo
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 11:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda with a youtube to mp3 converter program

 

Hi, there I use Pontes Media Downloader it’s easy to set up and you can paste links and just tab of what format you want the video to be converted too and go from there promps are accessible.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Dan Thompson
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2017 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] nvda with a youtube to mp3 converter program

 

Hi All,

I have been using the free youtube to mp3 converter for several years.  But suddenly I can not seem to get the url to paste into the converter and auto download into the music folder.    I am using verson 3.3.12.59 build 5.5.   It seems the new version of this program from  DVDVideoSoft  in the new 4.62 version has become very unaccessible.

I wrote a chapter in a book using my laptop with nvda and version 3.12.5 build 5-05.  However, now with the new verson nothing downloads automatically even if I get that bock check, and that is quit challenging itself.  The menus are rather unaccessible.

Is there another youtube to mp3 converter that is easy to use. I work with seniors, (55 and older), most around 65 years.

I will be greatful for any advice.9files to

 

Re: OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before

 

Yeah I know.

I think when we manage to save time we fill it up.

If I am not testing a game, or something when I should be reading my books or library books or other things I am either out, or doing anything but.

On 4/12/2017 7:57 p.m., Andy wrote:
It's interesting that we have all of these time saving devices at our disposal, but we always seem to complain that we don't have enough time.

Andy

----- Original Message -----
From: enes sarıbaş
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


well, lets say you opened 5000 documents a year. With a time save of 3 seconds, you save about 15000 seconds a year, which is alot. And believe me, it is much more than that. I have probably saved hours of my life with my ssd. Some of these things, like an ssd can only be experienced, not described. The benchmarks only hint at the performance improvement. So my suggestion gene, is for you to someday try using a system with an ssd for just 5 minutes, and I garantee you you will never want to go back to a normal harddrive.




On 12/4/2017 9:41 AM, Gene wrote:

I should have said, let's say it takes one second using an SSD drive.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Gene
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 12:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


Let's say it takes four seconds to open Microsoft Word using a mechanical drive. let's say it takes one second using a mechanical drive. How have I saved any amount of time that means anything? If I open word and load a document and I spend four seconds to open the program and four seconds in actual loading time after I find the document and press enter in the open dialog, then I spend twenty minutes working with the document or even ten minutes, how is eight seconds a meaningful amount of time? I can leave one or two programs opened, if I wish, if I use them a lot.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Lenron
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 12:05 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than before


Agreed even when doing simple things an ssd is faster. This is just facts.

On 12/3/17, enes sarıbaş <enes.saribas@...> wrote:
> hi,
>
> I respectfully disagree. The speed difference from an ssd is so massive
> that, even with very simplistic daily tasks, getting an ssd can be a
> massive time saver. I agree that anyone who can aford it should get an ssd.
>
>
> On 12/3/2017 5:48 PM, Gene wrote:
>> At some point, perhaps as early as Windows 7, Windows won't even let
>> you defragment SSD drives, as I recall.
>> On another subject related to SSD drives, I consider sweeping
>> statements such as, these days, everyone should have SSD drives to be
>> far too prescriptive and overgeneral. If you do things where speed
>> matters, copying lots of large files, converting lots of large files,
>> doing a lot of recording of long works and exporting the recording to
>> a compressed format such as MP3, and other uses I haven't though of
>> while at the moment, then it would make sense. but if you mainly do
>> things like word processing, web browsing, and other typical uses, I
>> don't consider it important. there are some people who just want
>> everything to be very fast, they don't want programs to take one or
>> two seconds to open, they want a program to open almost instantly. If
>> they want to spend the money for emotional satisfaction and
>> indulgence, fine, but not everyone wants or needs hotrods, whetgher in
>> computers, cars, or anywhere else.
>> There may be another time when having an SSD drive might be important,
>> others may wish to comment. If you have a laptop, and are going to
>> use it under conditions where it will be jostled and jolted somewhat
>> severely or severely while in use, such as driving over rather rough
>> or very rough roads, then I would think an SSD would be a good idea
>> or important.
>> Gene
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Antony Stone <mailto:antony.stone@...>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, December 03, 2017 4:42 AM
>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult
>> than before
>>
>> I would be very interested if you could post some links to the
>> information
>> about SSDs becoming unwriteable.
>>
>> Regarding defragmenting an SSD - there is absolutely no point.
>>
>> The whole purpose of defragmenting a traditional spinning hard disk
>> was to get
>> all the parts of a single file together, instead of being spread
>> (fragmented)
>> across the drive, which happens when small files are deleted and then
>> larger
>> ones are written into the gaps afterwards. Having the entire file
>> together in
>> one place is much more efficient for reading it later than having it
>> spread
>> around the disk (because it takes time for the mechanical heads to go
>> and find
>> all the different parts).
>>
>> With an SSD, accessing one part is just as efficient as any other -
>> nothing
>> needs to move to get to the next part, so fragmented files are no less
>> efficient
>> to read than complete ones.
>>
>>
>> Antony.
>>
>> On Sunday 03 December 2017 at 11:35:19, The Gamages wrote:
>>
>> > Hello,
>> > Regarding SSDs, as I understand it, there is a slight issue with
>> these in
>> > that some memory can become un writable, it can still be read, but
>> nothing
>> > further can be writtten into it.
>> > I realise that this can take a long time to happen and, if the drive
>> is a
>> > large capacity, it may never be an issue.
>> > I am only raising this point because I don’t fully understand the
>> > consequences of this.
>> > I was told by a computer engineer that it is not a good idea to de
>> fragment
>> > a solid state drive for this reason, it can make some memory un
>> writable if
>> > it is done regularly and is not really necessary on this sort of
>> > drive.
>> >
>> > Comments please, even if you shoot me down in flames,[smile]..
>> >
>> > Best Regards, Jim.
>> >
>> > From: Tyler Wood
>> > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 6:43 PM
>> > To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> > Subject: Re: [nvda] OT: selecting a new laptop is more difficult than
>> > before
>> >
>> > Keep in mind AMD has just released their ryzen mobile processors, so
>> that
>> > should be interesting. Similar to Intel, it will be Ryzen 3 = intel i3,
>> > ryzen 5 = intel i5, ryzen 7 = intel i7.
>> >
>> > In these modern days, hard drives truly limit the speed of a
>> computer. If
>> > you can afford it, even if it takes a little longer to save up, go for
>> > something with a solid state drive. You’ll never go back again. Even a
>> > cheap windows tablet with a 64 gb ssd is going to beat the socks off of
>> > that huge i5 with a 1 tb spinning hard drives in booting up, general
>> > snappyness around windows. Web browsing not so much but even so the
>> solid
>> > state drive is what makes or breaks a computer and is why you can get
>> > by
>> > with a core i3 or equal from AMD.
>> >
>> > Sean has a good point about soundcards these days, too. And even with
>> > headphones on it can still be painful with speech – so try and play
>> > with
>> > them in the store using narrator.
>>
>> --
>> "In fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to
>> realise that
>> the job was already taken."
>>
>> - Douglas Adams
>>
>> Please reply to the
>> list;
>> please
>> *don't* CC me.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>


--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762






Re: nvda with a youtube to mp3 converter program

Dan Thompson
 

Thanks a bunch, I will try it.  Does the converted file get saved in the music directory?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jason Milyo
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 11:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda with a youtube to mp3 converter program

 

Hi, there I use Pontes Media Downloader it’s easy to set up and you can paste links and just tab of what format you want the video to be converted too and go from there promps are accessible.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Dan Thompson
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2017 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] nvda with a youtube to mp3 converter program

 

Hi All,

I have been using the free youtube to mp3 converter for several years.  But suddenly I can not seem to get the url to paste into the converter and auto download into the music folder.    I am using verson 3.3.12.59 build 5.5.   It seems the new version of this program from  DVDVideoSoft  in the new 4.62 version has become very unaccessible.

I wrote a chapter in a book using my laptop with nvda and version 3.12.5 build 5-05.  However, now with the new verson nothing downloads automatically even if I get that bock check, and that is quit challenging itself.  The menus are rather unaccessible.

Is there another youtube to mp3 converter that is easy to use. I work with seniors, (55 and older), most around 65 years.

I will be greatful for any advice.9files to

 

Re: Invoice software

Nicholas Stevens
 

Thanks for your email.
I will look at the website you have suggested.
Does anybody know if it's NVDA/JAWS accessible?
Nicholas Stevens
Home: (021) 712 9022
Cell: 079 045 8029
Fax: 086 732 9993
E-Mail: nicolas.stevens@...

Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Invoice software

GNUcash is wonderful! on Linux, but yeah, on the mac, and Windows, I've found it to be disgusting!
 
Have you thought about Quickbooks? I get that for just a personal budget, this probably will be way, and I do mean, way! overkill, but it's probably the best I've found.
 
I'm told! about a web based sollution which is totally free, but I've not yet had the chance to look at it. I hear it's totally accessible though, and might do perfect for what you're asking:
 
---
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 5:48 AM
Subject: [nvda] Invoice software

Good afternoon all,
Please could somebody tell me if there is any invoice software that is compattable with NVDA.
I'm looking for a basic book-keeping programme that I can set up to track my monthly personal expenses.
My IT expert suggested the following programme:
When installing with JAWS the installation is completely accessible. It is only not accessible once the installation is complete and when you want to work in the actual programme.
If anybody can assist me with advice I would be really grateful.
Regards
Nicholas Stevens
Home: (021) 712 9022
Cell: 079 045 8029
Fax: 086 732 9993
E-Mail: nicolas.stevens@...

Re: nvda with a youtube to mp3 converter program

Jason Milyo
 

Hi, there I use Pontes Media Downloader it’s easy to set up and you can paste links and just tab of what format you want the video to be converted too and go from there promps are accessible.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Dan Thompson
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2017 11:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] nvda with a youtube to mp3 converter program

 

Hi All,

I have been using the free youtube to mp3 converter for several years.  But suddenly I can not seem to get the url to paste into the converter and auto download into the music folder.    I am using verson 3.3.12.59 build 5.5.   It seems the new version of this program from  DVDVideoSoft  in the new 4.62 version has become very unaccessible.

I wrote a chapter in a book using my laptop with nvda and version 3.12.5 build 5-05.  However, now with the new verson nothing downloads automatically even if I get that bock check, and that is quit challenging itself.  The menus are rather unaccessible.

Is there another youtube to mp3 converter that is easy to use. I work with seniors, (55 and older), most around 65 years.

I will be greatful for any advice.9files to