Hey all

Sorry for not posting for a while, I’ve just completed a

Permanent move to windows 10 from Linux. I now have a new pc, an ultrabook and both windows and NVDA perform much better. I’ve decided to get much more involved in helping NVDA, and windows itself, get better. To explain the issue I just reported, if you have a file copy or move operation in progress, windows explorer will open an information dialog. If the dialog is in it’s normal state, the progress bar beeps and speech updates work just fine. But there’s a more updates button or checkbox, and if that is checked, the dialog expands to give more information. When that happens, the progress bar updates no longer work. You can of course use screen review to look at the dialog and get the updates that way.  I also have report background progress bar updates checked in object presentation settings, gotten to by pressing NVDA+ctrl+o. This is on NVDA 2017.4 with joseph lee’s windows 10 app essentials add on installed. I’m not sure how to provide more info or proof of the problem, should I activate debug mode, or change the log level and post a log? I’ve been a part of NVDA development before, but it was back when windows 7 first came out and procedures might have changed. If there’s a new developers guide somewhere, point me to it and I’ll read it so you guys don’t have to repeat information.

Also, I’ve been trying to post this to the development group on groups.io. I’ve been rejected by both the sourceforge list, I think I might have unsubscribed from that one, and the groups.io one, nbvda-dev@groups.io. Did I unsubscribe from it and don’t remember or was I removed from it for something? I don’t want to clutter up the user support list with development emails but I couldn’t think of anywhere else to post this one, at least initially. If I can get on the development list, I’ll send all further dev stuff there.  

Thanks

Kendell Clark

sent from my ultrabook

however joseph, This fact doesn't change the fact that 99% of sighted people cannot breach the screen privacy features of screen readers. Heck, I used to turn on keyboard help to prevent people from pressing keys when I was away from my pc. A sighted person is extremely unlikely to know how to re-enable the screen. Most users, unless they are advanced users, are totally hopeless when they cannot see the screen.

Hi,

Rebuttal: privacy these days is something you don’t really “see”. Take advanced malware, for example that can take a look at what you’re doing without raising suspicion and no need to keep the monitor on. That’s the point I’m getting at. Screen shade is just one piece; others are user attitude, programs (both good and bad), and the target or info one is looking at.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 5:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

I did not think about the fact that a sighted person can look over their shoulder for prying eyes.

That is a great point! Good come back LOL!

I like good debates and discussions, because I just learned something right there!

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Chao
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Screen shade is useful for protecting confidential work information, which we may not know about prying eyes, and a sighted person can see when someone is looking over their shoulders.

 

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:27 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows settings and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do it.  If you unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with some sort of maintenance or performance problem, the screen should be on. 

 

The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and a sighted person can work with the machine if needed.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: David Moore

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many people will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some screen readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade, because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.

I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.

It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that should be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible with a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!

NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so glad it doesn’t.

It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install JAWS, and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Hi

 

I agree with Joseph.

 

There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader features that help.

 

if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.

 

then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that code gets added to the core of nvda.

 

 

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core one day in nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I feel this is a feature for us blind screen reader users that is needed and would be a good thing for nvda to have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

   From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!

 

 

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 

 

Hi,

Rebuttal: privacy these days is something you don’t really “see”. Take advanced malware, for example that can take a look at what you’re doing without raising suspicion and no need to keep the monitor on. That’s the point I’m getting at. Screen shade is just one piece; others are user attitude, programs (both good and bad), and the target or info one is looking at.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 5:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

I did not think about the fact that a sighted person can look over their shoulder for prying eyes.

That is a great point! Good come back LOL!

I like good debates and discussions, because I just learned something right there!

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Chao
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Screen shade is useful for protecting confidential work information, which we may not know about prying eyes, and a sighted person can see when someone is looking over their shoulders.

 

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:27 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows settings and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do it.  If you unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with some sort of maintenance or performance problem, the screen should be on. 

 

The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and a sighted person can work with the machine if needed.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: David Moore

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many people will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some screen readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade, because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.

I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.

It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that should be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible with a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!

NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so glad it doesn’t.

It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install JAWS, and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Hi

 

I agree with Joseph.

 

There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader features that help.

 

if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.

 

then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that code gets added to the core of nvda.

 

 

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core one day in nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I feel this is a feature for us blind screen reader users that is needed and would be a good thing for nvda to have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

   From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!

 

 

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 

 

I did not think about the fact that a sighted person can look over their shoulder for prying eyes.

That is a great point! Good come back LOL!

I like good debates and discussions, because I just learned something right there!

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Chao
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Screen shade is useful for protecting confidential work information, which we may not know about prying eyes, and a sighted person can see when someone is looking over their shoulders.

 

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:27 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows settings and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do it.  If you unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with some sort of maintenance or performance problem, the screen should be on. 

 

The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and a sighted person can work with the machine if needed.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: David Moore

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many people will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some screen readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade, because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.

I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.

It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that should be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible with a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!

NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so glad it doesn’t.

It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install JAWS, and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Hi

 

I agree with Joseph.

 

There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader features that help.

 

if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.

 

then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that code gets added to the core of nvda.

 

 

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core one day in nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I feel this is a feature for us blind screen reader users that is needed and would be a good thing for nvda to have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

   From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!

 

 

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 

 

I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many people will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some screen readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade, because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.

I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.

It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that should be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible with a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!

NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so glad it doesn’t.

It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install JAWS, and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

 

Hi

 

I agree with Joseph.

 

There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader features that help.

 

if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.

 

then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that code gets added to the core of nvda.

 

 

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core one day in nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I feel this is a feature for us blind screen reader users that is needed and would be a good thing for nvda to have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

   From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 

Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7 for
switching between different display modes (signal send only to laptop
monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send to both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may be
useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the signal
send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether windows
has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to request that
info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is a pure BIOS
feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao" <kevinchao89@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently
got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!

I did not think about the fact that a sighted person can look over their shoulder for prying eyes.

That is a great point! Good come back LOL!

I like good debates and discussions, because I just learned something right there!

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Hi,
The why part should be pretty obvious. I have had my screen at 0
percent and sighted people can still see it very clearly.


On 12/17/17, David Moore <jesusloves1966@gmail.com> wrote:

I did not think about the fact that a sighted person can look over their
shoulder for prying eyes.
That is a great point! Good come back LOL!
I like good debates and discussions, because I just learned something
right
there!
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Kevin Chao
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Screen shade is useful for protecting confidential work information,
which
we may not know about prying eyes, and a sighted person can see when
someone
is looking over their shoulders.

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:27 PM Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows
settings
and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do it.  If you
unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with some sort of
maintenance
or performance problem, the screen should be on.

The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and a
sighted
person can work with the machine if needed.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: David Moore
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many
people
will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some
screen
readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for
you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade,
because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.
I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.
It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be
employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that
should
be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible
with
a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!
NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so
glad
it doesn’t.
It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install
JAWS,
and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi

I agree with Joseph.

There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not
use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader
features
that help.

if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if
one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.

then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that
code gets added to the core of nvda.



Gene nz


On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:
well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core one day in
nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I feel this is a
feature for us blind screen reader users that is needed and would be a
good
thing for nvda to have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe
that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on
screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do
understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out
below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of
another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm
uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot
guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it,
including
sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin
Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my
laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in
nvda
and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say
other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply
switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using
the
Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both
advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a
blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader
users.
Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really
guarantee
privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille
displays, remote access, etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended
battery
life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay
window
is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this
overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you
may
think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it
should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more
appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs
should
developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally
for
me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen
reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand
why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever
is
one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
   From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!
















--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
material
at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the
NVDA
screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
please
visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
individuals
from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
expert
exam.

I did not think about the fact that a sighted person can look over their
shoulder for prying eyes.
That is a great point! Good come back LOL!
I like good debates and discussions, because I just learned something right
there!
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Kevin Chao
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Screen shade is useful for protecting confidential work information, which
we may not know about prying eyes, and a sighted person can see when someone
is looking over their shoulders.

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:27 PM Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
As far as I know you can't just turn off the screen in the Windows settings
and doing so may cause you real trouble if you can do it.  If you
unexpectedly need sighted assistance, to deal with some sort of maintenance
or performance problem, the screen should be on.

The screen shade has the advantage that the screen is still on and a sighted
person can work with the machine if needed.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: David Moore
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:02 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

I agree that we should only have features in screen readers that many people
will really need, and will help them do a job. Many features in some screen
readers are just not needed. You do not need a feature to do searches for
you, when you can do a Google search. You don’t need this screen shade,
because you can just turn off your screen in the Windows settings.
I really don’t know why anyone needs screen shade.
It is a useless feature, I think. How important is that for someone to be
employed. We need screen readers to help people work many jobs, that should
be the first importance. Next, intertainment uses need to be accessible with
a screen reader. If you work hard, you need to play hard LOL!
NVDA does not have to have every feature that JAWS has either. I am so glad
it doesn’t.
It takes me a few seconds to install NVDA, and 15 minutes to install JAWS,
and JAWS leaves footprints all over my computer.
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Gene New Zealand
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 7:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi

I agree with Joseph.

There might be things from other screen readers we might use or might not
use so I would rather the developers concentrate on screen reader features
that help.

if some one has got the smarts they can do it in a add on and that way if
one is made you have the choice of either adding it or not.

then down the track it could be added like you see with some addons that
code gets added to the core of nvda.



Gene nz


On 12/18/2017 11:47 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:
well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core one day in
nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I feel this is a
feature for us blind screen reader users that is needed and would be a good
thing for nvda to have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe
that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on
screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do
understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out
below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of
another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm
uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot
guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including
sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin
Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my
laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda
and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say
other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply
switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the
Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both
advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a
blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users.
Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee
privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille
displays, remote access, etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery
life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window
is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this
overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may
think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it
should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more
appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should
developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for
me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen
reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand
why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is
one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
   From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?


Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!
















--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material
at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA
screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please
visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals
from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert
exam.

Sorry, Gene, but I do not agree with you...

1 - As other member said, remember that the two major "markets" are India and Brazil.

In those two countries, specially India, but also some parts of Brazil, every Mb of downloads count...

2 - Several NVDA actual core functions have started as addons, and since their utility the NVDA team included it in the core... So, not a duplicate of efforts, but more as a field test of the utility of that function...

3 - Every NVDA local or/and language community should maintain a database of the major addosns available to use.

Rui

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gerardo Corripio

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

 

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

 

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

 

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

 

Regards,

 

Rui Fontes

 

 

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.

 

-- 

Gera

Enviado desde Thunderbird

well fare enough,   but I still think it should be in the core one day in nvda.   if you don't want to use it then fare enough but I feel this is a feature for us blind screen reader users that is needed and would be a good thing for nvda to have built in.

On 17/12/2017 22:06, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Some JAWS users did report that it doesn’t work all the time.
As for my justification statement: like some in the community, I believe that NVDA's purpose is screen reading. I think NVDA Core should focus on screen reading, with add-ons coming in with optional features. I do understand that I can be heavy-handed at times like the one pointed out below, but I'm speaking from experience that just following the lead of another screen reader just because NVDA should is something I'm uncomfortable with. Also, privacy is something a shade feature cannot guarantee 100 percent, as there are numerous ways of breaching it, including sounds, speech, remote access, data sharing and many others.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

it does not work on my 2 all in ones and I tried a little program on my laptops that should do this but it didn't work. I think it should be in nvda and Joseph for you just to say that you won't consider it if people say other screen readers have it is very heavy handed.

On 17/12/2017 21:24, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
   From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

   From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the  issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!

A lot of NVDA users won't ever know enough to know that there are add ons nor how to install them.  You are free to remove any add ons you don't want and, for experienced users who understand the implications, a no add ons NVDA can be offered if it really matters, which I don't think it does.  I'm not talking about including add on after add on in NVDA.  I'm saying that some add ons should be included because you aren't serving a lot of blind people well by not doing so, meaning the large number, who will never use add ons they have to download and install.  Instead of spending time and resources reinventing the wheel just to make it a part of core NVDA code, just include the add on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gerardo Corripio

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:19 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] competition

What I've liked and am liking of the AddOns on NVDA is the ability to install those that suits are needs, thus NVDA should be pure as always, but with each of us adding the necessary AddOns for our daily use.

El 17/12/2017 a las 06:16 p.m., Rui Fontes escribió:

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

Às 00:07 de 18/12/2017, Gene escreveu:

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: [nvda] competition

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.

-- 
Gera
Enviado desde Thunderbird

Hi,
Sure, turning off the monitor may work, but not always.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi Joseeph,


Thanks for the clarification.


Indeed, showing a blank window would not save energy. But why not simply switching off the screen (power button on an external monitor, or using the Fn+F7 (or similar key combination) on a laptop? Then you have both advantages, the pseudo "privacy" thing, and the energy saving.


I agree with the rest.

If an add-on would be needed, then I believe it is more worth
investing in an add-on that can report the status of the screen
(backlight level, to what port/screen the video signal is send), a bit
like the battery level feature in NVDA (nvda+shift+b)


Kind Regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 22:04, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
As noted by some members, screen shade/curtain shows what appears to be a blank screen. This is used to "guarantee" privacy for screen reader users. Note the quotation marks around "guarantee", as it does not really guarantee privacy, as there are means to circumvent this (speech output, braille displays, remote access, etc.).
From what I can gather, this function does not result in extended battery life nor power savings. When this function is turned on, an overlay window is imposed on top of other windows, and turning this off removes this overlay. As I said above, this does not provide privacy as many of you may think.
As for this being part of a screen reader: my overall opinion is that it should not. If people want it, then I think an add-on would be a more appropriate solution. Only after looking at justifications and costs should developers consider adding this into NVDA, in my opinion, and personally for me, a justification that goes along the lines of, "because another screen reader has this" is something I won't even consider.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Didier Colle
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi all,


I am not sure what this functionality is exactly about.

When it is about switching off / dimming the monitor, I do not understand why it would not save on battery....

The backlight of a monitor in a laptop, tablet, smartphone, ... whatever is one of the main power sinks in such systems.


On a laptop, you can often (this may vary between laptops) use Fn+f7
for switching between different display modes (signal send only to
laptop monitor, signal send to external monitor only or signal send
to
both) or
Fn+F5 to dim the backlight and Fn+F6 to light it up.When I am on
Fn+battery
power for a long time, I dim the backlight with Fn+f5 to save battery.

Thus you don't need a NVDA add-on for that, although such add-on may
be useful to read the status of the screen (to which monitor is the
signal send, on what level is the backlight). I have no clue whether
windows has access to such info, let alone it provides an api to
request that info (it might be the case that on some laptops this is
a pure BIOS feature completely transparent to windows).


Once again, I am not sure what this functionality is supposed to be
exactly, and thus I may be speaking about something completely different.


Kind regards,


Didier


On 17/12/2017 9:24, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

From what I know about Windows and indeed most screenreaders, this
function is just for privacy, ie its not going to save any battery.
If that is what you want then I'd have thought it was possible to do
it, kind of like a screensaver that never actually loses focus but
then you need to be able to tell nvda that you want it to use the
invisible window not the visible one.

In the issues tracker there is a thread on this.
Also the ultimate way |of doing this on a desktop is called the
monitor off switch..... ahem.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Chao"
<kevinchao89@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Screen Shade/curtain?

Hi,

VoiceOver has had screen curtain feature for a long while and JAWS
recently got screen shade.

Does NVDA have a similar feature via an add-on or natively?
Thanks!

Sorry, Gene, but if some of the addons will be shipped with NVDA and set to run, they should stop being addons and start being part of NVDA core...

Addon, by definition, is a piece of software to execute a specific function that does not make part of the NVDA core...

Regards,

Rui Fontes

NVDA doesn't have to adopt every popular feature of other screen-readers to compete.  I don't have much opinion about whether this feature is implemented in NVDA directly or by an add on.  It is a peripheral feature and not an actual screen-reader feature.  It is a proper question whether NVDA development time and resources should be put into this project.  And an add on wouldn't divert NVDA time and resources.  However, when it comes to add ons, NVDA should do what Window-eyes used to do, not because Window-eyes does it, but because it serves users well, is logical and there is no reason of any substance not to do it.  

 

Window-eyes used to accomplish a number of functions by having a number of what it pretentiously called apps, they were really scripts, but they were available to users as add ons and were shipped with Window-eyes and were set to run at the time of installation.  Many users of whatever screen-reader they use will never learn enough to know anything about add ons.  there are a number of add ons that should be incorporated into NVDA as addons that are downloaded and are running when NVDA is run. 

 

If this were done, the major objection against making a feature an add on would be done away with.  the objection is that a lot of people will never know about add ons and never use whatever is being discussed.  If this objection were done away with by having many add ons be included in NVDA as running add ons at the time of download and installation or portable use, the whole question and argument about whether something should be an add on could be done away with. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 4:16 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: [nvda] competition

 

When it comes to the new screen shade function in Jaws 2018 and if NVDA
should also have the same function the main question is whether or not
NVDA is in competition with other screen readers in order to get more
users or is NVDA just a free screen reader for those who can't afford to
pay for a screen reader.