Date   

Re: The Story of Rudolph Part II

Gene
 

You may not have seen the message, but I responded as moderator.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The Story of Rudolph Part II

Hi, I think if you had wanted to post this, you might have been better to
have made it a dropbox text download, perhaps put into your sig line. Its
very long, and is rather USA-centric. I don't understand a lot of its
references here in the UK.
 That is not to discourage you from writing, but perhaps just flag it and
save a bit of space on the list. At the time of writing I see nobody
commented on this, but if I were a moderator here, I might be getting my
riding crop out!

:-)


You should have called your Reindeer after add ons to nvda. One could have
been golden Cursor with a shiny nose after all.
 Brian

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----- 




Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

mk360
 

What about using diskpart?


El 24/12/2017 a las 3:25, coffeekingms@... escribió:

Hi all

This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital player can read neither of these file systems. I’ve submitted feedback to ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This is a problem because unless the dp’s firmware is updated, extremely unlikely, people who use windows 10 won’t be able to format new flash drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I’m sure exist. They won’t be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the functionality.  This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard drives have only the ntfs option. I’m posting hear because I’m not subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it’s off topic, but I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

 

Thanks

Kendell Clark

 

 

Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

 



Re: Tech support: a possible training session during NVDACon 2018

Adriani Botez
 

Yes Joseph thank you for your huge work. Be careful and do not stress yourself too much. We should really work together to build a sustainable platforn for sharing maintainer experience. We have to show the users and amd other people that maintaining does not only mean to translate or test addons. It implies user support, user surveys, networking, writing tutorials and articles etc. as well.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 24.12.2017 um 11:23 schrieb Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>:

Could I just say, Joseph. Please be careful. I am not saying don't do it, but be aware of the stress levels in your life.
Just a friendly warning that is all.
Hope you have a good restful Christmas.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 5:14 AM
Subject: [nvda] Tech support: a possible training session during NVDACon 2018


Hi all,



Before I present the following idea to NVDACon organizers, I'd like to run
it through with you to gather comments before proceeding:



As some of you may know, the NVDA community holds an annual gathering of
community members to discuss NVDA and its present and future. Given that
NVDACon 2018 proposals might be floating around the community (hopefully by
early next year), coupled with recent tech support discussions, I was
wondering if I should hold a training session during that gathering that
goes over basics of tech support. Topics may include user-centric questions,
troubleshooting steps, how to read NVDA log and what not.



Comments are welcome.

Cheers,

Joseph



Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

coffeekingms@hotmail.com
 

Hi

You’re better at this than I am, I couldn’t even have cobbled this together. I can write a bash script to do it in Linux, since I know the cintax better and I know the command line programs that format stuff, but in windows? Not a chance. I never even considered that this was a bug, I assumed ms deliberately removed it hoping people will migrate over to the newer file systems. Which would be fine except that most blindy devices only support a limited set of them, mostly windows ones, or at least OS agnostic ones like fat and fat32. I do wish they would add ext2/3/4, btrfs, xfs, and some other Linux file systems as native support. It would go well with microsoft’s supposed mission of supporting the competition. It would go right in with wsl, windows subsystem for Linux and their support for gmail and iCloud email accounts. Whether it will happen though is anyone’s guess. I didn’t think they’d ever make windows installation accessible and when they did, they did it right, I have to say. Except for Cortana, that over rides narrator until you turn it off, and I’ve asked them to disable the speech intro if narrator is on. Still allow Cortana functionality, just disable the perky speech intro in favor of narrators, since it announces the intro anyway.

 

 

Thanks

Kendell Clark

 

 

Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:41:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment
 
It does give a list no, but I guess some kind of addition could be made. I
have tweaked my system so that the drive letter is always e or f, but the
one I need to not format is m .
 Its very quick, some might say lazy. Ahem. I don't suggest I'm any good at
this stuff, just know enough to get by... :-)
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


Hi

Thanks a lot for that little script, it was exactly what I was looking for.
Something to put on my desktop to to click on when I get a new flash drive.
Looking at the code, it seems to ask which stick to use, but does it
actually give a list of sticks, or do you need to provide the drive letter?
Also, a prompt for the volume label or name would be nice, but I think I can
edit the script to add that since the language doesn’t seem too hard.
Something like /p “volume name?” or similar?

Thanks

Kendell Clark





Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook



________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:56:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment

Just in case I was thinking of this from my Windows 7 machine.
 Does this work in 10?

@echo off


set /p drive= Which stick should I use?
echo Please wait...

format %drive%:/fs:fat32/v:tested
pause
 exit

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


> Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio players for
> the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
> I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of files
> written, not on the file names as well.
> It seems a little odd to remove such an option.
>
> Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are pre
> formatted in that  way.
> Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?
>
> If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
> Brian
>
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <coffeekingms@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
> Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for
> flash drives for the moment
>
>
> Hi all
> This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after
> unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book
> player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the
> XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital
> player can read neither of these file systems. I’ve submitted feedback to
> ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This
> is a problem because unless the dp’s firmware is updated, extremely
> unlikely, people who use windows 10 won’t be able to format new flash
> drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I’m sure
> exist. They won’t be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the
> functionality.  This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard
> drives have only the ntfs option. I’m posting hear because I’m not
> subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it’s off topic, but
> I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide
> workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.
>
> Thanks
> Kendell Clark
>
>
> Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
>
>
>
>
>









Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

How odd, Seems that they bust the windows front end then?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Michel Such" <michel.such@free.fr>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi,


Just tested it:

from the command line:

format f: /fs:fat32

and it works fine.


Le 2017-12-24 à 09:56, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io a écrit :
Just in case I was thinking of this from my Windows 7 machine.
Does this work in 10?

@echo off


set /p drive= Which stick should I use?
echo Please wait...

format %drive%:/fs:fat32/v:tested
pause
exit

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io" <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio players for the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of files written, not on the file names as well.
It seems a little odd to remove such an option.

Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are pre formatted in that way.
Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?

If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
Brian


bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital player can read neither of these file systems. I’ve submitted feedback to ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This is a problem because unless the dp’s firmware is updated, extremely unlikely, people who use windows 10 won’t be able to format new flash drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I’m sure exist. They won’t be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the functionality. This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard drives have only the ntfs option. I’m posting hear because I’m not subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it’s off topic, but I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook






--


Michel Such


Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

It does give a list no, but I guess some kind of addition could be made. I have tweaked my system so that the drive letter is always e or f, but the one I need to not format is m .
Its very quick, some might say lazy. Ahem. I don't suggest I'm any good at this stuff, just know enough to get by... :-)
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi

Thanks a lot for that little script, it was exactly what I was looking for. Something to put on my desktop to to click on when I get a new flash drive. Looking at the code, it seems to ask which stick to use, but does it actually give a list of sticks, or do you need to provide the drive letter? Also, a prompt for the volume label or name would be nice, but I think I can edit the script to add that since the language doesn’t seem too hard. Something like /p “volume name?” or similar?

Thanks

Kendell Clark





Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook



________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:56:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Just in case I was thinking of this from my Windows 7 machine.
Does this work in 10?

@echo off


set /p drive= Which stick should I use?
echo Please wait...

format %drive%:/fs:fat32/v:tested
pause
exit

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio players for
the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of files
written, not on the file names as well.
It seems a little odd to remove such an option.

Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are pre
formatted in that way.
Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?

If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
Brian


bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for
flash drives for the moment


Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after
unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book
player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the
XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital
player can read neither of these file systems. I’ve submitted feedback to
ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This
is a problem because unless the dp’s firmware is updated, extremely
unlikely, people who use windows 10 won’t be able to format new flash
drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I’m sure
exist. They won’t be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the
functionality. This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard
drives have only the ntfs option. I’m posting hear because I’m not
subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it’s off topic, but
I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide
workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook





Re: A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality,feeling burnt out and tutorials

David Moore
 

Hi Joseph!

I have a strong statistics background along with my math specialty.

I totally agree with Joseph on how seriously to take the results of the web AIM survey!

A lot goes into sampling, and using statistics analysis to project the entire population results.

I think we need to concentrate on just how far NVDA has come in ten years.

I plan on getting more involved in this great community after my wife has her total knee replacement surgery in February, and after she recovers.

My plan, is that around April, I will be reaching out to others to help me with learning the code well enough to start understanding NVDA add ons.

Add ons are the future of NVDA.

That is my opinion. Why put a ton of features into the NVDA core that many people will never use.

The answer is to have hundreds of add ons, in the NVDA add on store that will work like the Apple store.

You will be able to have your add ons update automatically, and you will have one store or place to find all add ons, just like add ons for a Internet browser.

After that happens, Add ons will definitely be the way to go.

I thank you, Joseph, Derek, and many users all over the world who have taught me all that I know about using NVDA.

I did not just learn it from the manual, I learned a lot about using NVDA with different apps and programs from Gene NZ, and many of you in this great family.

I pray that we can all stick together, and all work together, and not count on a couple of people to do it all.

What I love most about NVDA, is that it is a world wide project of all of us working together.

That is a lot of power we have if we all work together as a world wide community and listen and learn from each other.

You are family to me, many of you are.

I hope that you, Joseph, and others, can relax and get renewed in strength and hope.

Merry Christmas, from Columbus, Ohio, to all of you all over this great world.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 12:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality,feeling burnt out and tutorials

 

Dear NVDA community,

 

As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan things accordingly.

 

But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:

 

First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.

 

As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers, with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics, depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).

 

One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However, due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors (false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying that this is not a true representative sample that includes every continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization, robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.

 

This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:

 

  • Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer started working for another organization, and NV Access has been looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
  • Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see huger progress in NVDA development.
  • Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations, especially more so for a community powered by technology such as Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity outside of this community.
  • Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA community is important, but unity within an organization is just as important as public organizational face (I’ll address developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.

 

Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary, quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.

 

Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not (especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post; instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible, especially during this holiday season and beyond.

 

I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest. Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need to know, something all of us needs to think about:

 

Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.

 

I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and others did (in my case, for the past five years).

 

Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to a point where people will start questioning the merits of this community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits. One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though: listen to others and think critically.

 

Hope this makes sense.

Merry (early) Christmas,

Joseph

 


Re: New Blog Post: (3) Relearning The Computer The Sightless Way

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes indeed, I found however here, a shortage of people who had the time to teach this part of the process, and as you suggest had to make up what I thought from what I recalled from older windows from the past.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bhavya shah" <bhavya.shah125@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 7:15 AM
Subject: [nvda] New Blog Post: (3) Relearning The Computer The Sightless Way


Dear all,
The 21st century 11-year-old is expected to be a proficient user of
tech, and I fulfilled that expectancy at that age too… until I lost
all my remaining vision and was forced to start from scratch. Allow me
to recount my experience, perhaps mirroring that of many other late
blind folks as well, of transitioning from the mouse to the keyboard,
leaving behind my favourite video games, and trying to revive visual
memories of the computer screen in a nonvisual manner. Check out the
newest issue in the Story of my Life Series on my blog Hiking Across
Horizons titled “(3) Relearning The Computer The Sightless Way”.
Post URL: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/2017/12/23/3-relearning-the-computer-the-sightless-way/
Blog Address: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/
Thanks.
P.S. While the shared blog post does not specifically pertain to NVDA,
I am certain that it will help remind us from where we came from as
screen reader users, the present situation of the adoption of NVDA in
training agencies, experiences of newbies with NVDA as their first, or
possibly second (as in my case), screen reader on Windows.

--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com
Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125
Mobile Number: +91 7506221750


Re: Nvda broken?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

No indeed its definitely got back from the dentist every time I hear it, with part of its tongue still numb from the anaesthetic!
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@ripco.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Nvda broken?


Whenever you discuss this question, you never put it in the context that I've discussed. Have you ever tried to find out or kept track of how many people who don't like Eloquence or Via Voice are Brittish and how many are Americans? The American speech is fine. The brittish accent sounds like an american trying to imitate a Brittish accent and it's ludicrous.

I like Brittish accents and if Via Voice or Eloquence had a real Brittish accent, I might read with it some of the time. But I never use the phony imitation accent.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 8:55 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Nvda broken?


Seems odd though if its been there for a while.
I know the IBM version of Eloquence works still, but being sappe 4 is a
little, shall we say unsophisticated!



I'm not sure what it is about Eloquence that people like. To me, being a
Brit it always sounds like it has a speech impediment. I much prefer espeak
Quincy, but then I'm biased as i created the variant in the first place :-)
Brian


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This message sent from a Windows XP machine!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Turner" <meturner2214@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Nvda broken?


Hi, I had a Eloquence addon.

I've wasn't sure if this addon was a legal one, so i've removed it.

I've had it on here for awhile, but I'll be buying the sapi5 one from
codefactory.


On 12/23/2017 4:51 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Glad it is fixed. Please flag us down if this happens again.
For reference: can you tell us which add-ons were causing issues?
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matt
Turner
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 1:48 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Nvda broken?

Hi, I think I've fix it for now.

NVDA 2017.4, Windows 8.1 64 bit.

I've took a look at all the addons I had installed, and removed a few of
them.

Starting up windows, NVDA starts up now. after removing said add-ons.


On 12/23/2017 4:24 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
A few things first:
* Which NVDA version are (or were) you running?
* Which Windows release are you using?
* Do you have any add-ons installed?
Sounds like NVDA has encountered a major problem when trying to load
something at startup. The thing is, we need your NVDA log output to
determine what's up, and one way to get it is:
1. Open Run dialog (Windows+R).
2. Type "%temp%" (without quotes and exactly as shown) and press Enter.
3. Look for a file named "nvda.log" or "nvdaold.log".
4. Open the file and copy and paste everything you see in the reply.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Matt Turner
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 1:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Nvda broken?

Hi folks.

Every time I try to start up NVDA, I get a airer.

I've uninstalled/ reinstalled, but I still get the same thing.

Even when windows starts up, the sound plays, but nvda still gives and
airer.

Narrator reads, airer nvda.exe ok.

I get nothing about checking the nvda log.












Re: The Story of Rudolph Part II

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Hi, I think if you had wanted to post this, you might have been better to have made it a dropbox text download, perhaps put into your sig line. Its very long, and is rather USA-centric. I don't understand a lot of its references here in the UK.
That is not to discourage you from writing, but perhaps just flag it and save a bit of space on the list. At the time of writing I see nobody commented on this, but if I were a moderator here, I might be getting my riding crop out!

:-)


You should have called your Reindeer after add ons to nvda. One could have been golden Cursor with a shiny nose after all.
Brian

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Re: Tech support: a possible training session during NVDACon 2018

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Could I just say, Joseph. Please be careful. I am not saying don't do it, but be aware of the stress levels in your life.
Just a friendly warning that is all.
Hope you have a good restful Christmas.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 5:14 AM
Subject: [nvda] Tech support: a possible training session during NVDACon 2018


Hi all,



Before I present the following idea to NVDACon organizers, I'd like to run
it through with you to gather comments before proceeding:



As some of you may know, the NVDA community holds an annual gathering of
community members to discuss NVDA and its present and future. Given that
NVDACon 2018 proposals might be floating around the community (hopefully by
early next year), coupled with recent tech support discussions, I was
wondering if I should hold a training session during that gathering that
goes over basics of tech support. Topics may include user-centric questions,
troubleshooting steps, how to read NVDA log and what not.



Comments are welcome.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot/emergency patch posted

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Can these commands be seen though? IE an addendum that they are changing to, xxx in the main page might be prudent to stop duplicate calls for help. I also do not really agree about removal of the sound. it may well be a ring but in this case its for a different purpose entirely.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot/emergency patch posted


Hi,

I usually don't post things about what's under development on add-ons
website. The corrected commands will go up once 2.0 stable is out.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New
Zealand
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:31 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor December 23rd snapshot/emergency patch
posted



Hi Joseph



Just checked and the commands are correct now if you access them from inside
of the add on manager for golden cursor.



but i would hate to say this if you go to the get add- ons page under the
golden cursor page it is incorrect there for those same 2 commands.

I always thought when you opened the help section under the add on manager
section it would take you to the same place but seems not. so is there a
copy on or in the add on?

I have never checked and i guess there would be there just in case you did
not have internet access?

Or is this still to be done?



sorry to give you some more greys.



Gene nz











On 12/24/2017 1:39 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi everyone,



Thanks to quick feedback from a user, an emergency patch for Golden Cursor
December 23rd snapshot is now up:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/goldenCursor.en.html



Thanks.

Cheers,

Joseph



--


Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material
at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA
screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
location) is near to you please visit
http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please
visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals
from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert
exam.




Re: A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Well I'm not so sure this is the whole story. I notice that the same argument is going on on the hardware front now. IE a smart phone can do most of what a media player, OCR machine, and navigational aid did. The people are still trying to sell such hardware, and I'd imagine in certain cases, they might have a a use, ie if the user has poor feeling in their hands or a tremor etc, but for the masses, no.
As I noted before, I don't like the kind of computer access Dolphin Guide gives. Its just a suite of self voicing software. It traps you.
Than goodness people can now put nvda on such machines and then when folk like me come along to help them when windows throws a wobbly we can.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Sky Mundell" <skyt@shaw.ca>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials


I totally agree with you. You are absolutely right. Screen readers should certainly be a social impact. The reason there is capital invested in it is because the agencies are the ones who are funding the capital.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials



Brian,



With respect to investing money globally to make screen reader users more computer literate, well believe or not there was always a solution for that. A screen reader should imply a social movement and not a gain of capital out of selling. There are lots of development institutions, Christian Blind Mission, blind federations and lots of other non governamental organizations which support everything which gives people access to education, information and technology. But in the last 30 years, many people hoped to gain money out of selling licenses and did not really concentrate on learning the user detailed aspects on how to use that software. Thus, users became more and more change resistent because they invested lot of time to learn by themselves how to use it productively. In my opinion, we should not only think about technical aspects of a screen reader, but also about social impact and user interaction.



Best

Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 24.12.2017 um 04:44 schrieb Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>:

Certainly I do understand the burned out part of this its the same for all volunteers. if we are good at what we do we are in demand and take on more and more. it was only a comment from somebody else that made me try to bring a sense of realism to life. You cannot be a one man fixer of everything, and the cemeteries are full of people who were indispensable.

Most screenreader users are just that, users, many of us know the basics of what is going on, but really, its now so complex its beyond all but the few to grasp it all.

Obviously as we kind of slip into a world very much like we used to have in the 80s, where computers run lots of different operating systems and even windows differs in the internals between many different systems, the problems of access move from the screenreader to the platform.

that is, NVDA will probably be OK on mainstream Windows computers for some years, but with tablets, phones and various different processors and operating systems now coming in, its going to be the user who has to change and become expert in many more interfaces, as clearly, what we use in Windows today with a keyboard may not fit in any way the interface of the future.

Sadly the problem is as it always has been, training and the cost and indeed the ability of blind people particularly the older ones to actually grasp the abstract concepts and enable them to see equivalents and have a grasp of what is actually going on.

I really think that somebody needs to invest a lot more money globally in trying to get more blind people computer literate, but its just not happening, so although in theory we have access, not everyone will be able to actually use it.



Change is life after all, and people going to take other jobs is normal. the problem for nvda is that the two people who started it were visionary, and not everyone can share the vision, if you get my drift.

I don't know what is about to happen to tech, but it seems to me that nobody does. Who could have predicted this year that tablet sales have dropped but laptop and desktop sales are up. I suspect its down to novelty wearing off and nothing really new on the market just revamps of what has gone before.

Personally, my gut tells me that although cloud computing can be good in some cases, many people do not want to pitch all their eggs into somebody elses basket. Its the same reason I still buy CDs. I don't want somebody taking my access away due to whatever. The danger at the moment is that the net is going down the packet priority road as well, another legal form of highway robbery in my view.

As for surveys, yes, well I already told you my opinion of those. Almost be better to use some tracking system, like a cookie to see what is on any given machine, but many would find that intrusive even though if you own an Android device its more or less going on now.

Its all about trust and whether you can always trust others with data about you.

If it can be created it can be hacked and messed about with. Bots are all over the place after all.

If you cannot trust the metrics one gets then the data collected becomes worthless.

Anyway I'm up in the night again wibbling on. Look at it this way, it matters what happens to nvda, but in the great scheme of life, what really matters is trying to be happy while you are here on the planet. You cannot own other people like Mick or Jamie.



Its not right or fair to expect people to be some kind of God.

Been there got the TO Shirt, and the community awards etc, and for what?

I prefer now to just help if I can but not to get so het up that it makes my life owned by others.

Big mistake.

Brian


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This message sent from a Windows XP machine!

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee <mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:25 PM

Subject: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials



Dear NVDA community,



As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan things accordingly.



But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:



First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.



As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers, with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics, depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).



One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However, due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors (false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying that this is not a true representative sample that includes every continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization, robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.



This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:



* Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer started working for another organization, and NV Access has been looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
* Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see huger progress in NVDA development.
* Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations, especially more so for a community powered by technology such as Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity outside of this community.
* Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA community is important, but unity within an organization is just as important as public organizational face (I’ll address developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.



Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary, quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.



Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not (especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post; instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible, especially during this holiday season and beyond.



I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest. Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need to know, something all of us needs to think about:



Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.



I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and others did (in my case, for the past five years).



Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to a point where people will start questioning the merits of this community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits. One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though: listen to others and think critically.



Hope this makes sense.

Merry (early) Christmas,

Joseph


Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Rick
 

You can get the list of options for the command version of the format program by typing “format /?” at the command prompt. Below is the result from the latest version of Windows 10.

 

Formats a disk for use with Windows.

 

FORMAT volume [/FS:file-system] [/V:label] [/Q] [/L[:state]] [/A:size] [/C] [/I:state] [/X] [/P:passes] [/S:state]

FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q] [/F:size] [/P:passes]

FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q] [/T:tracks /N:sectors] [/P:passes]

FORMAT volume [/V:label] [/Q] [/P:passes]

FORMAT volume [/Q]

 

  volume          Specifies the drive letter (followed by a colon),

                  mount point, or volume name.

  /FS:filesystem  Specifies the type of the file system (FAT, FAT32, exFAT,

                  NTFS, UDF, ReFS).

  /V:label        Specifies the volume label.

  /Q              Performs a quick format. Note that this switch overrides /P.

  /C              NTFS only: Files created on the new volume will be compressed

                  by default.

  /X              Forces the volume to dismount first if necessary.  All opened

                  handles to the volume would no longer be valid.

  /R:revision     UDF only: Forces the format to a specific UDF version

                  (1.02, 1.50, 2.00, 2.01, 2.50).  The default

                  revision is 2.01.

  /D              UDF 2.50 only: Metadata will be duplicated.

  /L[:state]      NTFS Only: Overrides the default size of file record.

                  By default, a non-tiered volume will be formatted with small

                  size file records and a tiered volume will be formatted with

                  large size file records.  /L and /L:enable forces format to

                  use large size file records and /L:disable forces format to

                  use small size file records.

  /A:size         Overrides the default allocation unit size. Default settings

                  are strongly recommended for general use.

                  ReFS supports 64K.

                  NTFS supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K, 64K.

                  FAT supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K, 64K,

                  (128K, 256K for sector size > 512 bytes).

                  FAT32 supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K, 64K,

                  (128K, 256K for sector size > 512 bytes).

                  exFAT supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K, 64K,

                  128K, 256K, 512K, 1M, 2M, 4M, 8M, 16M, 32M.

 

                  Note that the FAT and FAT32 files systems impose the

                  following restrictions on the number of clusters on a volume:

 

                  FAT: Number of clusters <= 65526

                  FAT32: 65526 < Number of clusters < 4177918

 

                  Format will immediately stop processing if it decides that

                  the above requirements cannot be met using the specified

                  cluster size.

 

                  NTFS compression is not supported for allocation unit sizes

                  above 4096.

 

  /F:size         Specifies the size of the floppy disk to format (1.44)

  /T:tracks       Specifies the number of tracks per disk side.

  /N:sectors      Specifies the number of sectors per track.

  /P:count        Zero every sector on the volume.  After that, the volume

                  will be overwritten "count" times using a different

                  random number each time.  If "count" is zero, no additional

                  overwrites are made after zeroing every sector.  This switch

                  is ignored when /Q is specified.

  /S:state        Specifies support for short filenames (enable, disable)

                  Short names are disabled by default

  /TXF:state      Specifies txf is enabled/disabled (enabled, disabled)

                  TxF is enabled by default

  /I:state        ReFS only: Specifies whether integrity should be enabled on

                  the new volume. "state" is either "enable" or "disable"

                  Integrity is enabled on storage that supports data redundancy

                  by default.

  /DAX[:state]    NTFS Only: Enable direct access storage (DAX) mode for this

                  volume.  In DAX mode, the volume is accessed via the memory

                  bus, boosting IO performance.  A volume can be formatted

                  with DAX mode only if the hardware is DAX capable.

                  State can specify "enable" or "disable".  /DAX is considered

                  as /DAX:enable.

 

Rick

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of coffeekingms@...
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

 

Hi

I agree  about players providing their own software. They could simply auto format flash drives on insertion, with a prompt of course. The problem with the companies providing their own software though is that they would almost certainly limit that software to the operating systems they perceive as popular, meaning windows and possibly mac. They would probably have an app for your smart device. That’s great except then every company which manufactures players would have their own app for their own players, resulting in multiples of the same app by different companies which all do the same thing. Better to have an open source app which multiple companies support if they’re going to go that route. Put it on git hub or something, and have it buildable on whatever OS you use. Pre built ones for windows, mac and maybe Linux as well, and app packages for android and IOS, just to cover all the bases. They wouldn’t even have to support it directly, just work together to develop it then give it to the community, with maybe an email address for help.

Thanks

Kendell Clark

 

 

Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Rob Hudson <rob_hudson_3182@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:03:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

 

Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
> You know I really think talking book players should either support
> formatting their drives or actually supporting ntfs or reformatting to
> their own format and have software able to do it.

NTFS is harder on flash memory than fat 32. That's why you almost never get flash drives in NTFS, unless they are really large ones like 128 gb and up.
The reason NTFS is harder on flash drives is because these things only have a limited number of writes. NTFS is a journalling file system, meaning it writes to the media more often than would happen as fat 32.
In addition, NTFS supports permissions, which is often not applicable for flash drives. File permissions could actually create problems on those when you transfer them between computers.
The only time you might want to consider formatting a flash drive as NTFS is if you are going to copy a file more than 4gb in size to the drive.



Re: A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Unfortunately though, those who traditionally offered the training, do not have the resources to provide it any more. Its certainly the case in the UK as the Government increasingly tries to get charities to produce other services 'on the cheap'.
Also I have issues with trainers who teach by wrote, they do not carry the person along and explain what is going on to them, giving them the ability to adapt.



I'm not setting myself up as a trainer, but I wince sometimes when I encounter people who seem to have been told, don't bother about this or that you won't need it etc.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Adriani Botez" <adriani.botez@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:07 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials


Brian,

With respect to investing money globally to make screen reader users more computer literate, well believe or not there was always a solution for that. A screen reader should imply a social movement and not a gain of capital out of selling. There are lots of development institutions, Christian Blind Mission, blind federations and lots of other non governamental organizations which support everything which gives people access to education, information and technology. But in the last 30 years, many people hoped to gain money out of selling licenses and did not really concentrate on learning the user detailed aspects on how to use that software. Thus, users became more and more change resistent because they invested lot of time to learn by themselves how to use it productively. In my opinion, we should not only think about technical aspects of a screen reader, but also about social impact and user interaction.

Best
Adriani


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 24.12.2017 um 04:44 schrieb Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>:

Certainly I do understand the burned out part of this its the same for all volunteers. if we are good at what we do we are in demand and take on more and more. it was only a comment from somebody else that made me try to bring a sense of realism to life. You cannot be a one man fixer of everything, and the cemeteries are full of people who were indispensable.
Most screenreader users are just that, users, many of us know the basics of what is going on, but really, its now so complex its beyond all but the few to grasp it all.
Obviously as we kind of slip into a world very much like we used to have in the 80s, where computers run lots of different operating systems and even windows differs in the internals between many different systems, the problems of access move from the screenreader to the platform.
that is, NVDA will probably be OK on mainstream Windows computers for some years, but with tablets, phones and various different processors and operating systems now coming in, its going to be the user who has to change and become expert in many more interfaces, as clearly, what we use in Windows today with a keyboard may not fit in any way the interface of the future.
Sadly the problem is as it always has been, training and the cost and indeed the ability of blind people particularly the older ones to actually grasp the abstract concepts and enable them to see equivalents and have a grasp of what is actually going on.
I really think that somebody needs to invest a lot more money globally in trying to get more blind people computer literate, but its just not happening, so although in theory we have access, not everyone will be able to actually use it.

Change is life after all, and people going to take other jobs is normal. the problem for nvda is that the two people who started it were visionary, and not everyone can share the vision, if you get my drift.
I don't know what is about to happen to tech, but it seems to me that nobody does. Who could have predicted this year that tablet sales have dropped but laptop and desktop sales are up. I suspect its down to novelty wearing off and nothing really new on the market just revamps of what has gone before.
Personally, my gut tells me that although cloud computing can be good in some cases, many people do not want to pitch all their eggs into somebody elses basket. Its the same reason I still buy CDs. I don't want somebody taking my access away due to whatever. The danger at the moment is that the net is going down the packet priority road as well, another legal form of highway robbery in my view.
As for surveys, yes, well I already told you my opinion of those. Almost be better to use some tracking system, like a cookie to see what is on any given machine, but many would find that intrusive even though if you own an Android device its more or less going on now.
Its all about trust and whether you can always trust others with data about you.
If it can be created it can be hacked and messed about with. Bots are all over the place after all.
If you cannot trust the metrics one gets then the data collected becomes worthless.
Anyway I'm up in the night again wibbling on. Look at it this way, it matters what happens to nvda, but in the great scheme of life, what really matters is trying to be happy while you are here on the planet. You cannot own other people like Mick or Jamie.

Its not right or fair to expect people to be some kind of God.
Been there got the TO Shirt, and the community awards etc, and for what?
I prefer now to just help if I can but not to get so het up that it makes my life owned by others.
Big mistake.
Brian

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This message sent from a Windows XP machine!
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:25 PM
Subject: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

Dear NVDA community,

As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan things accordingly.

But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:

First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.

As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers, with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics, depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).

One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However, due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors (false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying that this is not a true representative sample that includes every continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization, robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.

This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:

Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer started working for another organization, and NV Access has been looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see huger progress in NVDA development.
Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations, especially more so for a community powered by technology such as Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity outside of this community.
Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA community is important, but unity within an organization is just as important as public organizational face (I’ll address developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.

Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary, quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.

Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not (especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post; instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible, especially during this holiday season and beyond.

I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest. Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need to know, something all of us needs to think about:

Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.

I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and others did (in my case, for the past five years).

Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to a point where people will start questioning the merits of this community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits. One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though: listen to others and think critically.

Hope this makes sense.
Merry (early) Christmas,
Joseph


Re: Tech support: a possible training session during NVDACon2018

David Moore
 

Hi Joseph!

I think what you proposed is a good idea, because it might get more NVDA beginners to join the NVDACon 2018. Learning some beginning tech support from it being well explained, would be better for some people than reading the manual! I learn great from manuals, and I am a great self learner from reading books and seeing patterns and all.

We all learn in different ways though, and I think that a presentation on using the NVDA log information, self testing procedures, and more advanced topics of NVDA would be good to present at the NVDACon 2018

!Thank you so much, Joseph, for what you do, and let us keep marching on and work together and teach each other.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Carlos
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 1:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Tech support: a possible training session during NVDACon2018

 

Hello Joseph:

    NV Access already offers a training module on using NVDA.

    Those in the community who want to help with support in using NVDA should take the course and set themselves up to do tech support agents as their time permits.

    The training modules should be translated by members of the community in as many languages/tongues as possible!

    And, as always, in order to get the most out of NVDA it should be required that before coming on the list to ask questions that an understanding of the user manual take place!

    Thank You! Joseph for all your tireless work!!!

 

On 12/23/2017 9:14 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

 

Before I present the following idea to NVDACon organizers, I’d like to run it through with you to gather comments before proceeding:

 

As some of you may know, the NVDA community holds an annual gathering of community members to discuss NVDA and its present and future. Given that NVDACon 2018 proposals might be floating around the community (hopefully by early next year), coupled with recent tech support discussions, I was wondering if I should hold a training session during that gathering that goes over basics of tech support. Topics may include user-centric questions, troubleshooting steps, how to read NVDA log and what not.

 

Comments are welcome.

Cheers,

Joseph



-- 
Carlos Gonzalez - Los Angeles, CA. - gmjc341961@...

 


Re: Change.org Petition: Make Movies Accessible to the Blind

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

One of thee big problems for those who watch DVDs on their computers is that the menu for finding the AD version is often unreadable for us. BBC did make a self voicing menu, but it seems not to have been taken up universally.
Now I am not saying this would work but in windows 10 assuming text is on screen in these menus could the ocr and nvda be used in such a way as to find these options?
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Noah Carver via Groups.Io" <ntclists=aol.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Change.org Petition: Make Movies Accessible to the Blind


This is about DVS, mostly in movie theaters.


On 12/23/2017 22:29, Lino Morales wrote:
Noah. Movies for the most part are already accessible. Its called DVS. That's all I'll say.


On 12/23/2017 10:26 PM, Noah Carver via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi All,

This email might be off topic to this list, so if someone could give me some guidance it would be appreciated.

I have been doing some advocacy work for descriptive audio, and have written a Change.org petition. Have a look and see if you might sign and share with others.

https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-make-movies-accessible-to-the-blind?recruiter=844835478&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=share_petition

Yours,

Noah Carver





Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

coffeekingms@hotmail.com
 

Hi

I agree  about players providing their own software. They could simply auto format flash drives on insertion, with a prompt of course. The problem with the companies providing their own software though is that they would almost certainly limit that software to the operating systems they perceive as popular, meaning windows and possibly mac. They would probably have an app for your smart device. That’s great except then every company which manufactures players would have their own app for their own players, resulting in multiples of the same app by different companies which all do the same thing. Better to have an open source app which multiple companies support if they’re going to go that route. Put it on git hub or something, and have it buildable on whatever OS you use. Pre built ones for windows, mac and maybe Linux as well, and app packages for android and IOS, just to cover all the bases. They wouldn’t even have to support it directly, just work together to develop it then give it to the community, with maybe an email address for help.

Thanks

Kendell Clark

 

 

Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Rob Hudson <rob_hudson_3182@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:03:36 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment
 
Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
> You know I really think talking book players should either support
> formatting their drives or actually supporting ntfs or reformatting to
> their own format and have software able to do it.

NTFS is harder on flash memory than fat 32. That's why you almost never get flash drives in NTFS, unless they are really large ones like 128 gb and up.
The reason NTFS is harder on flash drives is because these things only have a limited number of writes. NTFS is a journalling file system, meaning it writes to the media more often than would happen as fat 32.
In addition, NTFS supports permissions, which is often not applicable for flash drives. File permissions could actually create problems on those when you transfer them between computers.
The only time you might want to consider formatting a flash drive as NTFS is if you are going to copy a file more than 4gb in size to the drive.




Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Michel Such
 

Hi,


Just tested it:

from the command line:

format f: /fs:fat32

and it works fine.

Le 2017-12-24 à 09:56, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io a écrit :
Just in case I was thinking of this from my Windows 7 machine.
Does this work in 10?

@echo off


set /p drive= Which stick should I use?
echo Please wait...

format %drive%:/fs:fat32/v:tested
pause
exit

Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io" <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio players for the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of files written, not on the file names as well.
It seems a little odd to remove such an option.

Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are pre formatted in that  way.
Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?

If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
Brian


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----- Original Message ----- From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital player can read neither of these file systems. I’ve submitted feedback to ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This is a problem because unless the dp’s firmware is updated, extremely unlikely, people who use windows 10 won’t be able to format new flash drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I’m sure exist. They won’t be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the functionality.  This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard drives have only the ntfs option. I’m posting hear because I’m not subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it’s off topic, but I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook





--


Michel Such


Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

coffeekingms@hotmail.com
 

Hi

Thanks a lot for that little script, it was exactly what I was looking for. Something to put on my desktop to to click on when I get a new flash drive. Looking at the code, it seems to ask which stick to use, but does it actually give a list of sticks, or do you need to provide the drive letter? Also, a prompt for the volume label or name would be nice, but I think I can edit the script to add that since the language doesn’t seem too hard. Something like /p “volume name?” or similar?

Thanks

Kendell Clark

 

 

Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:56:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment
 
Just in case I was thinking of this from my Windows 7 machine.
 Does this work in 10?

@echo off


set /p drive= Which stick should I use?
echo Please wait...

format %drive%:/fs:fat32/v:tested
pause
 exit

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


> Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio players for
> the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
> I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of files
> written, not on the file names as well.
> It seems a little odd to remove such an option.
>
> Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are pre
> formatted in that  way.
> Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?
>
> If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
> Brian
>
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <coffeekingms@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
> Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for
> flash drives for the moment
>
>
> Hi all
> This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after
> unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book
> player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the
> XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital
> player can read neither of these file systems. I’ve submitted feedback to
> ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This
> is a problem because unless the dp’s firmware is updated, extremely
> unlikely, people who use windows 10 won’t be able to format new flash
> drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I’m sure
> exist. They won’t be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the
> functionality.  This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard
> drives have only the ntfs option. I’m posting hear because I’m not
> subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it’s off topic, but
> I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide
> workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.
>
> Thanks
> Kendell Clark
>
>
> Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook
>
>
>
>
>