Date   

Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

 

Hi,

The details are not quite certain on these.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene New Zealand
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 11:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

 

Hi Joseph

 

What advantage will the store version have over the desk top version? That would still mean it would not work on a windows phone? or is it more for tablets?


Would you still be able to have it start at log on and when windows starts etc?

Gene nz

On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past 3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python 3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers, and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph
 
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?
 
Hi folks. I see a lot of  issues and  chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
 Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
 I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
 We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a  language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you know!
 
Brian
 
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi


the thing that comes to mind is it will be searchable through the store world wide on any persons computer running windows 10 compared to a website.


|Gene nz



On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past 3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python 3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers, and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

Hi folks. I see a lot of  issues and  chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
 Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
 I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
 We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a  language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you know!

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field. 








--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

Gene New Zealand <hurrikennyandopo@...>
 

Hi Joseph


What advantage will the store version have over the desk top version? That would still mean it would not work on a windows phone? or is it more for tablets?


Would you still be able to have it start at log on and when windows starts etc?

Gene nz

On 12/26/2017 12:51 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past 3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python 3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers, and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

Hi folks. I see a lot of  issues and  chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
 Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
 I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
 We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a  language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you know!

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field. 








--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Expert PDF Converter

 


Re: A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

 

Yeah, and wifi and stuff.

If humanware had a trecker phone I'd buy one why not.

On 25/12/2017 11:05 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I was thinking more in the region of cost. Many of us watch costs, but if its for work in many  well off economies, the equipment and software is purchased by the state.
Think of the Braille display. A lot has been made of late of these being used by nvda and indeed mainstream gear like Apple products, but really unless the person is well off these devices are a luxury unless bought by an organisation or government.

The same can be said of all the other devices. Also if you want things to be portable, you want to have a solution that does not demand you take half a truck load of gear everywhere you go.
I had to chuckle the other day when Humanware launched their Trek, which is basically a media player, downloader and GPs in a box.
If they only added a cellular modem and a camera, they would have a phone.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials


Well dedicated hardware while costing a bit has a few advantages.

1. bigger speakers, no added destractions etc.

The issue of all on one device is that especially with traditional headphone jacks going you can't just connect a pair of speakers anymore.

Even with that out the way, if you load your smartphone with a lot of stuff, you will still use that power.

Bluetooth, gps, and data use a lot if you are not carefull never mind that if you are not in the country you registered in the data will cost a lot so you will need to turn that off.

Unless you are on wifi and some of that can be not secured.

Even if you have extra batteries with the revelations of apple slowing devices, you will now have to add in new devices costs or batteries for that device.

Most dedicated devices at least quite a few will either have their battery which they use or if you are lucky use standard off the shelf batteries which actually don't cost that much especially if you buy that in a bundle.

I have a lot of electronics using aa and tripple aa battery types, and it costs not much to run any of them.




On 24/12/2017 10:18 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Well I'm not so sure this is the whole story. I notice that the same argument is going on on the hardware front now. IE a smart phone can do most of what a media player, OCR machine, and navigational aid did. The people are still trying to sell such hardware, and I'd imagine in certain cases, they might have a a use, ie if the user has poor feeling in their hands or a tremor etc, but for the masses, no.
As I noted before, I don't like the kind of computer access Dolphin Guide gives. Its just a suite of self voicing software. It traps you.
Than goodness people can now put nvda on such machines and then when folk like me come along to help them when windows throws a wobbly we can.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Sky Mundell" <skyt@shaw.ca>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials


I totally agree with you. You are absolutely right. Screen readers should certainly be a social impact. The reason there is capital invested in it is because the agencies are the ones who are funding the capital.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials



Brian,



With respect to investing money globally to make screen reader users more computer literate, well believe or not there was always a solution for that. A screen reader should imply a social movement and not a gain of capital out of selling. There are lots of development institutions, Christian Blind Mission, blind federations and lots of other non governamental organizations which support everything which gives people access to education, information and technology. But in the last 30 years, many people hoped to gain money out of selling licenses and did not really concentrate on learning the user detailed aspects on how to use that software. Thus, users became more and more change resistent because they invested lot of time to learn by themselves how to use it productively. In my opinion, we should not only think about technical aspects of a screen reader, but also about social impact and user interaction.



Best

Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 24.12.2017 um 04:44 schrieb Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>:

Certainly I do understand the burned out part of this its the same for all volunteers. if we are good at what we do we are in demand and take on more and more. it was only a comment from somebody else that made me try to bring a sense of realism to life. You cannot be a one man fixer of everything, and the cemeteries are full of people who were indispensable.

Most screenreader users are just that, users, many of us know the basics of what is going on, but really, its now so complex its beyond all but the few to grasp it all.

Obviously as we kind of slip into a world very much like we used to have in the 80s, where computers run lots of different operating systems and even windows differs in the internals between many different systems, the problems of access move from the screenreader to the platform.

that is, NVDA will probably be OK on mainstream Windows computers for some years, but with tablets, phones and various different processors and operating systems now coming in, its going to be the user who has to change and become expert in many more interfaces, as clearly, what we use in Windows today with a keyboard may not fit in any way the interface of the future.

Sadly the problem is as it always has been, training and the cost and indeed the ability of blind people particularly the older ones to actually grasp the abstract concepts and enable them to see equivalents and have a grasp of what is actually going on.

I really think that somebody needs to invest a lot more money globally in trying to get more blind people computer literate, but its just not happening, so although in theory we have access, not everyone will be able to actually use it.



Change is life after all, and people going to take other jobs is normal. the problem for nvda is that the two people who started it were visionary, and not everyone can share the vision, if you get my drift.

I don't know what is about to happen to tech, but it seems to me that nobody does. Who could have predicted this year that tablet sales have dropped but laptop and desktop sales are up. I suspect its down to novelty wearing off and nothing really new on the market just revamps of what has gone before.

Personally, my gut tells me that although cloud computing can be good in some cases, many people do not want to pitch all their eggs into somebody elses basket. Its the same reason I still buy CDs. I don't want somebody taking my access away due to whatever. The danger at the moment is that the net is going down the packet priority road as well, another legal form of highway robbery in my view.

As for surveys, yes, well I already told you my opinion of those. Almost be better to use some tracking system, like a cookie to see what is on any given machine, but many would find that intrusive even though if you own an Android device its more or less going on now.

Its all about trust and whether you can always trust others with data about you.

If it can be created it can be hacked and messed about with. Bots are all over the place after all.

If you cannot trust the metrics one gets then the data collected becomes worthless.

Anyway I'm up in the night again wibbling on. Look at it this way, it matters what happens to nvda, but in the great scheme of life, what really matters is trying to be happy while you are here on the planet. You cannot own other people like Mick or Jamie.



Its not right or fair to expect people to be some kind of God.

Been there got the TO Shirt, and the community awards etc, and for what?

I prefer now to just help if I can but not to get so het up that it makes my life owned by others.

Big mistake.

Brian


bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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This message sent from a Windows XP machine!

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee <mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:25 PM

Subject: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials



Dear NVDA community,



As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan things accordingly.



But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:



First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.



As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers, with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics, depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).



One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However, due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors (false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying that this is not a true representative sample that includes every continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization, robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.



This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:



* Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer started working for another organization, and NV Access has been looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
* Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see huger progress in NVDA development.
* Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations, especially more so for a community powered by technology such as Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity outside of this community.
* Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA community is important, but unity within an organization is just as important as public organizational face (I’ll address developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.



Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary, quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.



Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not (especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post; instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible, especially during this holiday season and beyond.



I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest. Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need to know, something all of us needs to think about:



Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.



I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and others did (in my case, for the past five years).



Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to a point where people will start questioning the merits of this community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits. One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though: listen to others and think critically.



Hope this makes sense.

Merry (early) Christmas,

Joseph






.





Re: Change.org Petition: Make Movies Accessible to the Blind

ely.r@...
 

Sean and all,
First, let me say that I am relatively new to the list, and not sure just where in the world posters may live. So, want to be sure there is the disclaimer that what is here applies to the U.S.

The most valuable resource I know is the Audio Description Project ADP created and run by the American Counsel of the Blind. It is a wonderful resource about Audio description, AD, in general. More importantly, it offers an extensive list of movies that have been described on both DVD and Blu Ray going back years. Each film entry includes a link that takes one to that movie on Amazon in the States that has AD. ADP maintains a list of films in the theaters that have description as well. Most if not all of those, when released to disk will include the AD track. The ADP site is at:
http://www.acb.org/adp/dvdsalpha.html
The listings at the site refer only to theater and disk releases in the States. The site does include links to other resources. It also lists programing on Netflix, and other paid online sources such as Apple and Amazon movies, and does it best to track what is in AD on the major networks. ADP as an active but not overwhelming user group.

Of course, the next issue that does not have the single solution that it needs, and that is how in the H to get to the AD track on a DVD.

On my PC, Windows 10 and the most up to date versions of JAWS and NVDA, I use Media Player Classic Home Cinema. The app is screen reader accessible and still uses the traditional menu bar for making selection and navigation. AD, if it exists on a disk, is in the “Play” menu under “Audio Track.” Other languages are often highest on that list, most of the conventional play features can be accessed through keyboard command. The cost for all of these features and many more is, sit down, FREE!
Information and downloads are at:
https://mpc-hc.org/
The app will not play Blu Ray disks even if you have a Blu Ray drive installed. Family was good enough to gift me an Xbox 1 to use as a Blu Ray player. It, of course, is based on Windows and has both “Narrator” and Magnifier as part of it operating system. Once turned on, the Xbox will let you navigate the disk features in much the same way as MPCHC.

Years ago, I worked at the national Center for Accessible Media at WGBH a public Television station in Boston Massachusetts. NCAM pioneered both closed captioning and Audio Description and was and still is a provider of AD for film and television. As an example of best practice accessibility
, NCAM produced A version of “Abraham and Mary Lincoln: A House Divided.” When the disk started, an audio announcement asked if you wanted the program with AD or not. Don’t recall what button on the DVD player one pressed, but you didn’t need to see the screen to make the selection. This feature has never been adopted, but it could be on all DVD and Blu Ray disks.
Hope this information if of some help.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:01 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Change.org Petition: Make Movies Accessible to the Blind

You know thats been a pet peeve of mine.

I have dvd audio extracter to basically get at my dvds.

And thats the polite way to post here.

Because of copywrite its not always possible to do this.

I can use windows media player to handle dvds but I can't seem to watch things more than once so usually after they have been watched with little control I end up putting them away.

Now it would be nice if there was a way for the blind to either download at cost using a subscription say 5-10 a month all the videos they want from a ftp and even stream audio described content.

All the companies are quite happy to go after all the pirates and crackers, but seriously, I need to crack my own dvds to get what was legally licenced to me to play.

Granted I do do that to dvds friends have, and videos from the video store and yes, I guess in that form I could easily put them up on a website and you the producer would loose control at the point.

But right now, if I get a dvd, firstly I need to see if its described, then I need to see if it will be able to be piratable so I can crack it and get the mp3 off of it and normalise that.

Even if I do that if its something like mgm or paramount its either so encripted I have to spend 2-3 days using other extracters and cracking tools on hard drives over night which then really means its not worth it to have all the audio in bits and stuff so I can't play it in order which I could do but its not worth that.

Its good that a lot of companies do not use such protection so I can crack to my hearts content, but with all the talk about piracy, the industry is not helping itself.

How much would it cost them to put a seperate disk with audio files on it, or for those things I have brought a code to redeem my things.

Or even a way for the blind to buy audio described movies, or subscribe to them.

After all the sighted can use netflicks, some of it I can aparently but its the principal here.

Sadly thats never going to happen, I will always crack all my dvds and no one will care for now at least.

I really do wish that the next laws past are that all dvds must be accessible to the blind or the material needs to be previded off on another disk, naturally I am happy to pay, no not 220-50 bucks for extra content but something I can afford.

Thats my rant for the day.

Its a pipedream nothing more.




On 24/12/2017 10:05 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
One of thee big problems for those who watch DVDs on their computers
is that the menu for finding the AD version is often unreadable for
us. BBC did make a self voicing menu, but it seems not to have been
taken up universally.
Now I am not saying this would work but in windows 10 assuming text is
on screen in these menus could the ocr and nvda be used in such a way
as to find these options?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Noah Carver via Groups.Io"
<ntclists=aol.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Change.org Petition: Make Movies Accessible to the
Blind


This is about DVS, mostly in movie theaters.


On 12/23/2017 22:29, Lino Morales wrote:
Noah. Movies for the most part are already accessible. Its called
DVS. That's all I'll say.


On 12/23/2017 10:26 PM, Noah Carver via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi All,

This email might be off topic to this list, so if someone could
give me some guidance it would be appreciated.

I have been doing some advocacy work for descriptive audio, and
have written a Change.org petition. Have a look and see if you
might sign and share with others.

https://www.change.org/p/the-walt-disney-company-make-movies-access
ible-to-the-blind?recruiter=844835478&utm_source=share_petition&utm
_medium=copylink&utm_campaign=share_petition&utm_term=share_petitio
n


Yours,

Noah Carver








.


Re: My mouse keeps freezing

Didier Colle
 

Hi Paul,


I have a similar problem on my work laptop (a lenovo yoga).

What is strange in my case, is that the mouse can be perfectly manipulated while the touchpad somehow seems frozen.. is that the same in your case? If so, this is probably a driver issue (although I did not have the time to check this further).


Kind regards,


Didier

On 20/12/2017 17:51, Paul O'Rahilly wrote:
Folks

I share my laptop with a sighted family member.

The synaptic pad mouse frequently freezes. This occurs intermittently,
without an obvious pattern.

This happens with NVDA and with JAWS, on both my win7 and win10 laptops.

I have ruled out a mechanical fault, and malware. This could be a
mouse driver or a registry key issue, but haven't explored these areas
further.

Any suggestions ?

Thanks, Paul


Re: NVDA, Facebook and Outlook

Morne van der Merwe
 

No Angela, I don't take it personal at all. When it comes to figuring out a peace of music, then I'm totally fine. But with computers and technical stuff I tend to make a total mess.

Take care.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: Sunday, 24 December 2017 5:15 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, Facebook and Outlook

You can go to nvda settings and choose not to use screen layout and I think that should solve the problem.

One question: did you spend ten minutes exploring nvda settings? I do not think so by your question because one who knows nothing like me has understood it just exploring...

Best and remember to explore the screen reader you are using.

Angela from Italy

P.S Do not take it as personal because I don't know you at all, it is just a suggestion, humble opinion. We want tech support, but we also must be able to help ourselves by exploring things on our own.



Il 24/12/2017 14:46, Morne van der Merwe ha scritto:
Hello,

I think I've figured the Facebook issue out. The links for messages and profile are next to each other, not underneath each other.

Latest version of Internet Explorer.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Bhavya shah
Sent: Sunday, 24 December 2017 3:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, Facebook and Outlook

Hi Morne,
I use NVDA extensively on m.facebook.com with success. Could you specify the web browser and its version being used at your end while encountering difficulties in accessing your Messages?
Thanks.

On 12/24/17, Morne van der Merwe <mornevdmerwe@telkomsa.net> wrote:
Hello NVDA family,



I’m using NVDA with great success. I have 2 questions though.



I’m currently using the mobile site of Facebook on my computer. I
find that my previous screen reader reads more information than nvda
on the mobile site. For example: It is easier with my previous reader
to find the message link, while with NVDA I have to hit enter on a
couple of links in order to get to my messages. Does NVDA work well on the actual Facebook site?



Outlook: I’m using the latest version of Office. Is NVDA capable of
telling you how many unread emails there are? I have folders in
Outlook assigned to specific objects. I have an NVDA folder and
messages related to NVDA goes directly to that folder. With the
previous screen reader I could determine how many unread emails there
are by just arrowing down through the folders.
Is that possible with NVDA?



Thanks for your help in advance.



Kind regards

Morné

--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons:
https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@gmail.com Follow me on Twitter
@BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91
7506221750







---
Questa email è stata esaminata alla ricerca di virus da AVG.
http://www.avg.com


Re: NVDA, Facebook and Outlook

Morne van der Merwe
 

Thanks Jene, your suggestions helped a lot.

 

Regards

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, 24 December 2017 4:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, Facebook and Outlook

 

Also, how do you get to the messages link using the old screen-reader?  It may be that NVDA presents the page slightly differently or doesn't see something your old screen-reader did, or it may be that a setting change will allow you to see the page in the same way.  Try the following:

Open the NVDA menu with NVDA key n. 

Down arrow to preferences and press enter.

Down arrow to browse mode and press enter.

A dialog opens.

Tab around until you get to Use screen layout when supported.

If it is checked, uncheck it.  Then press enter.

Does the page display as it did before? 

Or try the reverse.  If it is currently unchecked, check it.  See what happpens. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 7:40 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, Facebook and Outlook

 

Hi Morne,
I use NVDA extensively on m.facebook.com with success. Could you
specify the web browser and its version being used at your end while
encountering difficulties in accessing your Messages?
Thanks.

On 12/24/17, Morne van der Merwe <mornevdmerwe@...> wrote:
> Hello NVDA family,
>
>
>
> I’m using NVDA with great success. I have 2 questions though.
>
>
>
> I’m currently using the mobile site of Facebook on my computer. I find that
> my previous screen reader reads more information than nvda on the mobile
> site. For example: It is easier with my previous reader to find the message
> link, while with NVDA I have to hit enter on a couple of links in order to
> get to my messages. Does NVDA work well on the actual Facebook site?
>
>
>
> Outlook:  I’m using the latest version of Office. Is NVDA capable of
> telling
> you how many unread emails there are? I have folders in Outlook assigned to
> specific objects. I have an NVDA folder and messages related to NVDA goes
> directly to that folder. With the previous screen reader I could determine
> how many unread emails there are by just arrowing down through the folders.
> Is that possible with NVDA?
>
>
>
> Thanks for your help in advance.
>
>
>
> Kind regards
>
> Morné
>
>


--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

Contacting Me
E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@...
Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125
Mobile Number: +91 7506221750



Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

coffeekingms@hotmail.com
 

Hi

Fair point about reFS. Wikipedia didn’t specifically say that it was ms’s proprietary raid, I sort of paraphrased it. What it actually said was a lot of complex language regarding sector allocation, data stripes, and the like. It sounded like raid and it seemed to work similar to raid, but I think it may actually be most similar to btrfs on Linux or maybe zfs on bsd. To dumb it down a bit, it’s supposed to provide better redundancy if a disk fails and provide better recovery if a disk runs into problems. I believe it also compresses stuff by default, but again I’m no expert.

In any case, I’ve started using guiformat.exe and it works like a charm until Microsoft restores the functionality, or fixes the bug if it is a bug.

Thanks

Kendell Clark

 

 

Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 6:05:21 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment
 

Hi,

Correction: although ReFS integrates some RAID features, it isn’t really a complete RAID solution.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

 

Hi,

FAT32 can format drives up to 2 terabytes maximum, and 32 GB is the artificial limit imposed. ReFS (Resilient File System), contrary to what you may have read on Wikipedia, is not Microsoft’s version of RAID (Redundant Array of Independent Disks). The file system structure is a bit similar in concept but it is not RAID, as ReFS is designed for large storage pools and for data integrity on those pools (you can’t boot from a ReFS volume, and you can’t read ReFS formatted pools unless you have Windows 10 Version 1709 or Server 1709).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of coffeekingms@...
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 3:57 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

 

Hi

I’m not absolutely positive the fat32 feature is gone, but I *think* it is. My reasons are because on flash drives, only the XFat and ntfs options are visible, and on external hard drives, or more correctly, external hard drives above a certain size, what that size is I’m not sure, only the ntfs option is usable, along with something called reFS, which Wikipedia says is microsoft’s proprietary implementation of raid. There are tools to do this I have no doubt, several people have pointed out programs. My reason for posting it hear was because this was able to be done out of the box before and it isn’t now. I’m puzzled by the removal, if it is a removal. It is always possible NVDA suddenly can’t see the option, and I’ll check with narrator really quickly but I doubt that’s the problem. It’s either deliberate or a bug. If it is a bug it’s a recent one, because I don’t remember having this problem a month or so ago, so that narrows down the list of updates that could’ve caused it. But windows isn’t … well it’s not as open as I’m used to so it’s harder to debug. It can be done but when you’re used to Linux and it’s internals being available … That’s another reason I want to get involved with NVDA development, or at least involved in the community. I want to get as comfortable with windows as I am with Linux, to the point where I’m able to essentially take it apart to fix if needed. Right now I’d say I’m barely above an average user with windows. If that.

 

Thanks

Kendell Clark

 

 

Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 4:11:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

 

Yes a friend has a big drive formatted in some  way, but it would not play
on the stick player. take the data off format it to fat32, copy it back and
hey presto. it works, though I'd not go for his choice in music.
 I'm glad the batch file worked, and as you say there are programs out there
that do this, however one has to wonder why Msoft would remove a normal
format mode from the gui. are we absolutely sure its gone, and its not just
an nvda issue that cannot see the button or checkbox?
 Also does the program also do a verify?
 I note that windows says it is doing it, but I have my doubts that its
doing more than reading the fat.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Giles Turnbull" <giles.turnbull@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


I ran into this problem when I replaced my Booksense book reader with a
Blaze earlier this year. I decided I'd buy a 128Gb SD card, which I quicly
found the Blaze couldn't handle. I knew the Booksense was limited to 32Gb
and later found out the Blaze is can handle max 64Gb. I found that out when
I emailed HIMS because I was fed up at having an unusable 128Gb drive!

They suggested FAT32 formatter with a GUI that worked fine for me with NVDA.
It is called guiformat.exe and I found it with a quick Google search. It has
a combo box with all available drives and lets you choose the allocation
unit size and lets you label the drive with whatever name you like.

My Blaze ET handles the FAT32 formatted 128Gb SD card fine.

Giles



Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

 

Hi,

Correction: although ReFS integrates some RAID features, it isn’t really a complete RAID solution.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 4:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

 

Hi,

FAT32 can format drives up to 2 terabytes maximum, and 32 GB is the artificial limit imposed. ReFS (Resilient File System), contrary to what you may have read on Wikipedia, is not Microsoft’s version of RAID (Redundant Array of Independent Disks). The file system structure is a bit similar in concept but it is not RAID, as ReFS is designed for large storage pools and for data integrity on those pools (you can’t boot from a ReFS volume, and you can’t read ReFS formatted pools unless you have Windows 10 Version 1709 or Server 1709).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of coffeekingms@...
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 3:57 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

 

Hi

I’m not absolutely positive the fat32 feature is gone, but I *think* it is. My reasons are because on flash drives, only the XFat and ntfs options are visible, and on external hard drives, or more correctly, external hard drives above a certain size, what that size is I’m not sure, only the ntfs option is usable, along with something called reFS, which Wikipedia says is microsoft’s proprietary implementation of raid. There are tools to do this I have no doubt, several people have pointed out programs. My reason for posting it hear was because this was able to be done out of the box before and it isn’t now. I’m puzzled by the removal, if it is a removal. It is always possible NVDA suddenly can’t see the option, and I’ll check with narrator really quickly but I doubt that’s the problem. It’s either deliberate or a bug. If it is a bug it’s a recent one, because I don’t remember having this problem a month or so ago, so that narrows down the list of updates that could’ve caused it. But windows isn’t … well it’s not as open as I’m used to so it’s harder to debug. It can be done but when you’re used to Linux and it’s internals being available … That’s another reason I want to get involved with NVDA development, or at least involved in the community. I want to get as comfortable with windows as I am with Linux, to the point where I’m able to essentially take it apart to fix if needed. Right now I’d say I’m barely above an average user with windows. If that.

 

Thanks

Kendell Clark

 

 

Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 4:11:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

 

Yes a friend has a big drive formatted in some  way, but it would not play
on the stick player. take the data off format it to fat32, copy it back and
hey presto. it works, though I'd not go for his choice in music.
 I'm glad the batch file worked, and as you say there are programs out there
that do this, however one has to wonder why Msoft would remove a normal
format mode from the gui. are we absolutely sure its gone, and its not just
an nvda issue that cannot see the button or checkbox?
 Also does the program also do a verify?
 I note that windows says it is doing it, but I have my doubts that its
doing more than reading the fat.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Giles Turnbull" <giles.turnbull@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


I ran into this problem when I replaced my Booksense book reader with a
Blaze earlier this year. I decided I'd buy a 128Gb SD card, which I quicly
found the Blaze couldn't handle. I knew the Booksense was limited to 32Gb
and later found out the Blaze is can handle max 64Gb. I found that out when
I emailed HIMS because I was fed up at having an unusable 128Gb drive!

They suggested FAT32 formatter with a GUI that worked fine for me with NVDA.
It is called guiformat.exe and I found it with a quick Google search. It has
a combo box with all available drives and lets you choose the allocation
unit size and lets you label the drive with whatever name you like.

My Blaze ET handles the FAT32 formatted 128Gb SD card fine.

Giles



Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

 

Hi,

FAT32 can format drives up to 2 terabytes maximum, and 32 GB is the artificial limit imposed. ReFS (Resilient File System), contrary to what you may have read on Wikipedia, is not Microsoft’s version of RAID (Redundant Array of Independent Disks). The file system structure is a bit similar in concept but it is not RAID, as ReFS is designed for large storage pools and for data integrity on those pools (you can’t boot from a ReFS volume, and you can’t read ReFS formatted pools unless you have Windows 10 Version 1709 or Server 1709).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of coffeekingms@...
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 3:57 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

 

Hi

I’m not absolutely positive the fat32 feature is gone, but I *think* it is. My reasons are because on flash drives, only the XFat and ntfs options are visible, and on external hard drives, or more correctly, external hard drives above a certain size, what that size is I’m not sure, only the ntfs option is usable, along with something called reFS, which Wikipedia says is microsoft’s proprietary implementation of raid. There are tools to do this I have no doubt, several people have pointed out programs. My reason for posting it hear was because this was able to be done out of the box before and it isn’t now. I’m puzzled by the removal, if it is a removal. It is always possible NVDA suddenly can’t see the option, and I’ll check with narrator really quickly but I doubt that’s the problem. It’s either deliberate or a bug. If it is a bug it’s a recent one, because I don’t remember having this problem a month or so ago, so that narrows down the list of updates that could’ve caused it. But windows isn’t … well it’s not as open as I’m used to so it’s harder to debug. It can be done but when you’re used to Linux and it’s internals being available … That’s another reason I want to get involved with NVDA development, or at least involved in the community. I want to get as comfortable with windows as I am with Linux, to the point where I’m able to essentially take it apart to fix if needed. Right now I’d say I’m barely above an average user with windows. If that.

 

Thanks

Kendell Clark

 

 

Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 4:11:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

 

Yes a friend has a big drive formatted in some  way, but it would not play
on the stick player. take the data off format it to fat32, copy it back and
hey presto. it works, though I'd not go for his choice in music.
 I'm glad the batch file worked, and as you say there are programs out there
that do this, however one has to wonder why Msoft would remove a normal
format mode from the gui. are we absolutely sure its gone, and its not just
an nvda issue that cannot see the button or checkbox?
 Also does the program also do a verify?
 I note that windows says it is doing it, but I have my doubts that its
doing more than reading the fat.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Giles Turnbull" <giles.turnbull@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


I ran into this problem when I replaced my Booksense book reader with a
Blaze earlier this year. I decided I'd buy a 128Gb SD card, which I quicly
found the Blaze couldn't handle. I knew the Booksense was limited to 32Gb
and later found out the Blaze is can handle max 64Gb. I found that out when
I emailed HIMS because I was fed up at having an unusable 128Gb drive!

They suggested FAT32 formatter with a GUI that worked fine for me with NVDA.
It is called guiformat.exe and I found it with a quick Google search. It has
a combo box with all available drives and lets you choose the allocation
unit size and lets you label the drive with whatever name you like.

My Blaze ET handles the FAT32 formatted 128Gb SD card fine.

Giles




Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

coffeekingms@hotmail.com
 

Hi

I’m not absolutely positive the fat32 feature is gone, but I *think* it is. My reasons are because on flash drives, only the XFat and ntfs options are visible, and on external hard drives, or more correctly, external hard drives above a certain size, what that size is I’m not sure, only the ntfs option is usable, along with something called reFS, which Wikipedia says is microsoft’s proprietary implementation of raid. There are tools to do this I have no doubt, several people have pointed out programs. My reason for posting it hear was because this was able to be done out of the box before and it isn’t now. I’m puzzled by the removal, if it is a removal. It is always possible NVDA suddenly can’t see the option, and I’ll check with narrator really quickly but I doubt that’s the problem. It’s either deliberate or a bug. If it is a bug it’s a recent one, because I don’t remember having this problem a month or so ago, so that narrows down the list of updates that could’ve caused it. But windows isn’t … well it’s not as open as I’m used to so it’s harder to debug. It can be done but when you’re used to Linux and it’s internals being available … That’s another reason I want to get involved with NVDA development, or at least involved in the community. I want to get as comfortable with windows as I am with Linux, to the point where I’m able to essentially take it apart to fix if needed. Right now I’d say I’m barely above an average user with windows. If that.

 

Thanks

Kendell Clark

 

 

Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 4:11:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment
 
Yes a friend has a big drive formatted in some  way, but it would not play
on the stick player. take the data off format it to fat32, copy it back and
hey presto. it works, though I'd not go for his choice in music.
 I'm glad the batch file worked, and as you say there are programs out there
that do this, however one has to wonder why Msoft would remove a normal
format mode from the gui. are we absolutely sure its gone, and its not just
an nvda issue that cannot see the button or checkbox?
 Also does the program also do a verify?
 I note that windows says it is doing it, but I have my doubts that its
doing more than reading the fat.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Giles Turnbull" <giles.turnbull@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


I ran into this problem when I replaced my Booksense book reader with a
Blaze earlier this year. I decided I'd buy a 128Gb SD card, which I quicly
found the Blaze couldn't handle. I knew the Booksense was limited to 32Gb
and later found out the Blaze is can handle max 64Gb. I found that out when
I emailed HIMS because I was fed up at having an unusable 128Gb drive!

They suggested FAT32 formatter with a GUI that worked fine for me with NVDA.
It is called guiformat.exe and I found it with a quick Google search. It has
a combo box with all available drives and lets you choose the allocation
unit size and lets you label the drive with whatever name you like.

My Blaze ET handles the FAT32 formatted 128Gb SD card fine.

Giles





Re: Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

 

Hi everyone,
Ah, an interesting question on the morning of Christmas (where it is past 3
AM my time)...
A bit of explaining is in order:
Regarding dropping support for Windows releases prior to 7 SP1: for a long
time, folks using Firefox and other web browsers experienced a problem where
NVDA's browse mode functionality wouldn't work when you restart NVDA while
focused on the browser window. In order to fix this, NV Access turned to
using some things from Windows API that isn't part of old Windows releases.
Because of this and other factors outlined below, NV Access wrote in August
2017 that NVDA 2017.3 will be the last release to support old Windows
versions.
Another factor is Windows OneCore rate boost issue. Currently in order to
use OneCore voices (on Windows 10 only) with faster speech rate, you have to
go to Settings, go to Ease of Access/Narrator and change the speech rate to
a faster value. A fix is now available but only on Windows 10 Version 1709
(Fall Creators Update), and incorporating the fix requires us (NV Access and
other developers) to use latest Windows 10 SDK, which will work only on an
update to Visual Studio 2017. Unfortunately, this meant giving up ability to
compile NVDA so it can run on old Windows releases.
Last one for now: a few days ago, you may recall a message where I told some
people to "shhh for now" over something under active development, and I
hinted on Twitter that you'll meet NVDA on a new outlet. For those who
solved the puzzle, great. For the rest of you: one day, you'll find yourself
opening Microsoft Store app on your Windows 10 S computer, searching for and
installing a Windows Store (aka Project Centennial) version of NVDA. This
also answers a question some of you may have had: yes, the Windows Store
version of NVDA CANNOT run add-ons at this time, but that could change as
development progresses. I won't go into details on mechanics of how this can
be done, but suffice to say that those running latest next branch snapshots
are already running a modified code that lets NVDA detect if it's running
inside a modified container. Fortunately for now, the old desktop version
code still lives, but once the Store version of NVDA ships, this will mean
saying goodbye to old technologies that were used on old Windows releases
(and the Store version and the desktop edition will still be together).
This is sort of an interesting segue to the question at hand: why Python 3?
The biggest advantage is ease of making NVDA speak and understand more
languages through extensive use of Unicode. One of our goals (developers,
and in extension, the community at large) is to let more blind people taste
what it is like to work and play with minimal or no financial barriers, and
internationalization is the key (this is why I kept asking for folks to help
out with translations). Python 3.x changes the game by shipping with
built-in support for Unicode, something Python 2 does not do well (hence the
need to use the Unicode function when needed).
Of course upgrading to Python 3 comes with downsides. Although we'll gain
native Unicode support, code must be edited and checked to make sure things
are working for folks as before. Unfortunately, there is a dark cloud over
us: add-ons, and I and community leaders are mostly to blame: we lost
contact with creators of some prominent add-ons, there are add-ons installed
on many NVDA installations that weren't updated in a very long time, and
add-on repositories are scattered all over the internet. As much as add-ons
are the sauce that binds the community together (among other things), our
lack of coordination, coupled with ones that won't be ported to Python 3
easily saddens me, knowing that this will be our undoing. Thankfully, some
in the add-ons community have recognized this early and are working
tirelessly to make sure that our add-ons are Python 3 ready.
Regarding Python 3 readiness of add-ons: mostly for add-ons community, but
effective March 1, 2018, any add-on I'll be reviewing must show that it is
python 3 ready, otherwise I'll ask authors to "transform" their code before
asking for another round of reviews. As for details, I'll post on the
add-ons mailing list, as it mostly concerns source code edits. For users,
this is so that your favorite add-ons can run on future NVDA versions
powered by Python 3.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 2:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and
other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical
discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to
explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of
computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over
getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections
for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down
development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not
universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here
somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody could
do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward
calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you know!

Brian

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Futore porting of NVDA to Python 3.X. Why?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Hi folks. I see a lot of issues and chat about doing this on github and other places, however what seems to be lacking in these mostly technical discussions, is a reason for doing it.
Is there anybody out there who understands the reasons well enough to explain to the user who has probably not go a lot of understanding of computer languages, exactly why this seems to be being prioritised over getting nvda to work better as it stands.
I ask as to me at least, unless there is a need to rewrite whole sections for some reason, it does seem a lot of work and will obviously slow down development and indeed create bugs or remove functions accidentally.
We have just been through the dropping of support for XP, a decision not universally popular from what I have heard, but obvious when you here somebody explain why in as plain a language as one can. If somebody could do the same for this major move it would I think go a long way toward calming the frustrations some feel at the moment.
Oh and don't shoot me for saying this, its the season of Good Will you know!

Brian

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Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

You can get them, but they cost basically the same no matter what the smaller size is. We use half gig ones at the talking newspaper, but we buy in bulk of 100 at a time. recently the sticks have started to not like our stick bulk copier so its going back for a software update and a check over.One would have thought that the sticks electronics would be all the same, but apparently newer ones can be a bit slower or faster and this upsets some systems.
Life used to be so simple with cassettes, you just had to worry about mangled tape!

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "David Tanner" <david.tanner100@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 25, 2017 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Actually, I am finding in our area it is almost impossible to find anything
less than an 8GB flash drive any more, and an 8GB drive will generally come
in at $5.00 or less.


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun
Everiss
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 4:49 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment

Well most players I have used only support up to 32gb and thats probably the
reason.

Right now I guess thats not a problem but as standard drives drop, it will
get more and more of an issue.

For example, 4gb maybe 2gb are the lowest but anything lower than 4 you may
no longer be able to buy these days.

Its relitively cheap enough to buy up to a 16gb drive and some stages a 32gb
drive but 64gb and higher are getting cheaper to.




On 24/12/2017 9:49 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio players
for the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of
files written, not on the file names as well.
It seems a little odd to remove such an option.

Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are
pre formatted in that way.
Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?

If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
Brian


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----- Original Message ----- From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after
unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book
player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has
the XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The
digital player can read neither of these file systems. I've submitted
feedback to ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it
will happen. This is a problem because unless the dp's firmware is
updated, extremely unlikely, people who use windows 10 won't be able
to format new flash drives or reformat old ones without using another
program, which I'm sure exist. They won't be able to do it out of the
box unless ms restores the functionality. This seems to only apply to
flash drives. External hard drives have only the ntfs option. I'm
posting hear because I'm not subscribed to the baard talk list any
longer. Sorry if it's off topic, but I wanted to let everyone know so
others can jump on this or provide workarounds if needed. Right now I
have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook





.


Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes a friend has a big drive formatted in some way, but it would not play on the stick player. take the data off format it to fat32, copy it back and hey presto. it works, though I'd not go for his choice in music.
I'm glad the batch file worked, and as you say there are programs out there that do this, however one has to wonder why Msoft would remove a normal format mode from the gui. are we absolutely sure its gone, and its not just an nvda issue that cannot see the button or checkbox?
Also does the program also do a verify?
I note that windows says it is doing it, but I have my doubts that its doing more than reading the fat.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Giles Turnbull" <giles.turnbull@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


I ran into this problem when I replaced my Booksense book reader with a Blaze earlier this year. I decided I'd buy a 128Gb SD card, which I quicly found the Blaze couldn't handle. I knew the Booksense was limited to 32Gb and later found out the Blaze is can handle max 64Gb. I found that out when I emailed HIMS because I was fed up at having an unusable 128Gb drive!

They suggested FAT32 formatter with a GUI that worked fine for me with NVDA. It is called guiformat.exe and I found it with a quick Google search. It has a combo box with all available drives and lets you choose the allocation unit size and lets you label the drive with whatever name you like.

My Blaze ET handles the FAT32 formatted 128Gb SD card fine.

Giles


Re: A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

I was thinking more in the region of cost. Many of us watch costs, but if its for work in many well off economies, the equipment and software is purchased by the state.
Think of the Braille display. A lot has been made of late of these being used by nvda and indeed mainstream gear like Apple products, but really unless the person is well off these devices are a luxury unless bought by an organisation or government.

The same can be said of all the other devices. Also if you want things to be portable, you want to have a solution that does not demand you take half a truck load of gear everywhere you go.
I had to chuckle the other day when Humanware launched their Trek, which is basically a media player, downloader and GPs in a box.
If they only added a cellular modem and a camera, they would have a phone.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials


Well dedicated hardware while costing a bit has a few advantages.

1. bigger speakers, no added destractions etc.

The issue of all on one device is that especially with traditional headphone jacks going you can't just connect a pair of speakers anymore.

Even with that out the way, if you load your smartphone with a lot of stuff, you will still use that power.

Bluetooth, gps, and data use a lot if you are not carefull never mind that if you are not in the country you registered in the data will cost a lot so you will need to turn that off.

Unless you are on wifi and some of that can be not secured.

Even if you have extra batteries with the revelations of apple slowing devices, you will now have to add in new devices costs or batteries for that device.

Most dedicated devices at least quite a few will either have their battery which they use or if you are lucky use standard off the shelf batteries which actually don't cost that much especially if you buy that in a bundle.

I have a lot of electronics using aa and tripple aa battery types, and it costs not much to run any of them.




On 24/12/2017 10:18 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
Well I'm not so sure this is the whole story. I notice that the same argument is going on on the hardware front now. IE a smart phone can do most of what a media player, OCR machine, and navigational aid did. The people are still trying to sell such hardware, and I'd imagine in certain cases, they might have a a use, ie if the user has poor feeling in their hands or a tremor etc, but for the masses, no.
As I noted before, I don't like the kind of computer access Dolphin Guide gives. Its just a suite of self voicing software. It traps you.
Than goodness people can now put nvda on such machines and then when folk like me come along to help them when windows throws a wobbly we can.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Sky Mundell" <skyt@shaw.ca>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials


I totally agree with you. You are absolutely right. Screen readers should certainly be a social impact. The reason there is capital invested in it is because the agencies are the ones who are funding the capital.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 7:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials



Brian,



With respect to investing money globally to make screen reader users more computer literate, well believe or not there was always a solution for that. A screen reader should imply a social movement and not a gain of capital out of selling. There are lots of development institutions, Christian Blind Mission, blind federations and lots of other non governamental organizations which support everything which gives people access to education, information and technology. But in the last 30 years, many people hoped to gain money out of selling licenses and did not really concentrate on learning the user detailed aspects on how to use that software. Thus, users became more and more change resistent because they invested lot of time to learn by themselves how to use it productively. In my opinion, we should not only think about technical aspects of a screen reader, but also about social impact and user interaction.



Best

Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 24.12.2017 um 04:44 schrieb Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>:

Certainly I do understand the burned out part of this its the same for all volunteers. if we are good at what we do we are in demand and take on more and more. it was only a comment from somebody else that made me try to bring a sense of realism to life. You cannot be a one man fixer of everything, and the cemeteries are full of people who were indispensable.

Most screenreader users are just that, users, many of us know the basics of what is going on, but really, its now so complex its beyond all but the few to grasp it all.

Obviously as we kind of slip into a world very much like we used to have in the 80s, where computers run lots of different operating systems and even windows differs in the internals between many different systems, the problems of access move from the screenreader to the platform.

that is, NVDA will probably be OK on mainstream Windows computers for some years, but with tablets, phones and various different processors and operating systems now coming in, its going to be the user who has to change and become expert in many more interfaces, as clearly, what we use in Windows today with a keyboard may not fit in any way the interface of the future.

Sadly the problem is as it always has been, training and the cost and indeed the ability of blind people particularly the older ones to actually grasp the abstract concepts and enable them to see equivalents and have a grasp of what is actually going on.

I really think that somebody needs to invest a lot more money globally in trying to get more blind people computer literate, but its just not happening, so although in theory we have access, not everyone will be able to actually use it.



Change is life after all, and people going to take other jobs is normal. the problem for nvda is that the two people who started it were visionary, and not everyone can share the vision, if you get my drift.

I don't know what is about to happen to tech, but it seems to me that nobody does. Who could have predicted this year that tablet sales have dropped but laptop and desktop sales are up. I suspect its down to novelty wearing off and nothing really new on the market just revamps of what has gone before.

Personally, my gut tells me that although cloud computing can be good in some cases, many people do not want to pitch all their eggs into somebody elses basket. Its the same reason I still buy CDs. I don't want somebody taking my access away due to whatever. The danger at the moment is that the net is going down the packet priority road as well, another legal form of highway robbery in my view.

As for surveys, yes, well I already told you my opinion of those. Almost be better to use some tracking system, like a cookie to see what is on any given machine, but many would find that intrusive even though if you own an Android device its more or less going on now.

Its all about trust and whether you can always trust others with data about you.

If it can be created it can be hacked and messed about with. Bots are all over the place after all.

If you cannot trust the metrics one gets then the data collected becomes worthless.

Anyway I'm up in the night again wibbling on. Look at it this way, it matters what happens to nvda, but in the great scheme of life, what really matters is trying to be happy while you are here on the planet. You cannot own other people like Mick or Jamie.



Its not right or fair to expect people to be some kind of God.

Been there got the TO Shirt, and the community awards etc, and for what?

I prefer now to just help if I can but not to get so het up that it makes my life owned by others.

Big mistake.

Brian


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This message sent from a Windows XP machine!

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee <mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:25 PM

Subject: [nvda] A few thoughts: Web Aim survey, quantity versus quality, feeling burnt out and tutorials



Dear NVDA community,



As I read messages on recent discussions, I realized just how much enthusiasm and concern people have over NVDA and its future. At the same time, it became clear to me that I and other developers and community elders need a day off and just listen to you all, as listening allows us to think about what others are saying and plan things accordingly.



But first, a humble opinion about surveys and other points:



First, when calls for the seventh Web AIM survey went out, I told people to not just do it to “increase” market share. I specifically told screen reader companies to not coerce users to do it, but let people take it out of their own willingness. This advice was to avoid a fiasco that happened with Web AIM 6 where AI Squared (now part of VFO) staff told Window-Eyes users to fill out the survey in mass numbers, which became a small controversy within the screen reading world, and to me, making Web AIM results no longer credible.



As some folks pointed out, Web AIM numbers depend on how many people fill it out and where they come from (and this is true of any surveys where word of mouth drives participation). The results also depend on demographics and other factors such as choices given, how the questions are worded, and overall objective. If one or more data points seems to be dominant, they can be either skewed or outliers, with the more extreme cases being termed “outliers” and they affect how the results are explicated (interpreted). Even skewed data, such as what I can perceive from some surveys including recent Web AIM iterations can affect statistical calculations to a point where it raises genuine questions about bias, credibility, and others (after all, success of statistics, particularly inferential statistics, depends on a representative sample or a close equivalent that allows researchers to approximate the real world, which is prone to errors if not done correctly such as misinterpretation, bad outliers, only some groups participating, not looking at things more deeply and what not).



One important thing to note is that Web AIM is a representative survey, thus the result in front of me could reflect reality. However, due to recent controversy, possible type I and II errors (false-positive and false-negative, respectively) and because of outliers and skewed data and participation, it does not truly reflect actual data, which is a point some folks here are trying to say and I concur with. My explication of Web AIM 7 is that, in some parts of the world, JAWS for Windows is more popular. However, given the fact that not all geographical regions are represented, I’d counter by saying that this is not a true representative sample that includes every continent, and if it did, the story would be different and will reflect reality a bit better (not a lot because there are other ways of skewing data such as filling it out on behalf of an organization, robotic fillers and so on). Coupled with the fact that Web AIM went through a major controversy recently that damaged its credibility somewhat, I would dare not trust Web AIM results again.



This leads to my second point: quantity versus quality. If NV Access went straight for quantity alone, they could have implemented all possible feature requests in hopes of boosting market share. The reality in front of us says otherwise: not all feature requests are here. Numerous factors contribute to this problem:



* Lack of leading developers: in 2017, a long-time NVDA developer started working for another organization, and NV Access has been looking for his replacement ever since. Even if the replacement is found, it’ll take several months for him or her to become used to this community, learn about accessibility and how to interact with members, and earn our trust (it took Reef Turner a year to fully earn our trust). Folks can counter this by saying that there are countless contributors out there, but ultimately what gets into NVDA depends on pull requests and review time from NV Access.
* Attitudes about open-source software from organizations: as some folks pointed out, there are prevailing attitudes about open-source in organizations that makes it a bit harder for NVDA to land on their computers, which allows developers to assess true needs of organizations through user feedback. Without valuable feedback from organizations (a quality one at that), we won’t see huger progress in NVDA development.
* Outside attitudes about the NVDA community: from the inside, NVDA community is seen as a tight nit of enthusiasts who strives to make NVDA better every day. On the outside, however, we have a mixed bag of reputations, from admiration to honorable mentions to disdain. Every organization have these mixed reputations, especially more so for a community powered by technology such as Linux kernel developers, web browser vendors and web standards organizations, and even screen reader community. Not only we need to show that we are united inside, we need to showcase unity outside of this community.
* Inside matters just as outside: public relations outside of NVDA community is important, but unity within an organization is just as important as public organizational face (I’ll address developer’s point of view below). What makes NVDA stand out is our unity despite coming from different circumstances and backgrounds.



Most of these point to quality, not quantity alone. In summary, quantity is important, but quality is just as important as how many people download NVDA 2017.4 between Christmas and New Year.



Lastly, in regards to organization internals, I’d like to address something I really wanted to say for the past few weeks: sometimes, I felt burnt out. My initial response to your enthusiasm over my audio tutorials was that I’ll ask for justifications for producing an updated version, seeing that there are countless free videos and tutorials out there. This was partly because I truly felt burnt out with academics, speech and debate competitions and what not (especially after a debate regarding a potential feature held not long ago), at one point telling myself that I’ll retire from the NVDA community sooner than later and feeling as though I carried important burdens on my shoulders. But you didn’t see that justification post; instead, I posted links to where you can download the 2018 version of my audio tutorial series. In effect, I’ve given up my Christmas holidays for this community, knowing that I needed a time to listen to you all and do something about it. All this was possible because of a simple act of listening and thinking about what the community means to me and what my work means to everyone. I’m committed to finishing Welcome to NVDA 2018 series before NVDA 2018.1 ships, with several addenda coming after that, all because of support from this community and outsiders. And I promise again: The Welcome to NVDA 2018 series was, and will remain, free for all. All I ask of you in return is donate to a cause that makes equal access to technology possible, especially during this holiday season and beyond.



I’m sure for many of you, my musings above are a bit hard to digest. Now you know why I don’t trust Web AIM survey results, quality is just as important as quantity, and read a confession from a community leader on his inner feelings. But there are two more things you need to know, something all of us needs to think about:



Community leaders won’t stay with you forever. In early 2017, I sensed that a long-time NVDA developer would leave this community for something better. Only I and others didn’t know until summer that it would be Jamie moving onto Mozilla Foundation.



I also felt, back in early 2017, that my active time with the NVDA community is slowly drawing to a close. I don’t know when it’ll happen, but I’ve been laying foundations for the next generation of developers and enthusiasts to take the lead. This is one of the reasons for setting up the devlearning subgroup, because I felt it is time for me and other leaders to teach NVDA internals and other concepts to the next group of community leaders and developers so they can bring NVDA to the next level and do more amazing things than I and others did (in my case, for the past five years).



Lastly, I sense a time when this community will face a sharp divide to a point where people will start questioning the merits of this community. I only told a select few earlier because it wasn’t right for me to disclose it early and for them to prepare a plan. The screen shade debate is, in fact, a sort of a preview of what is to come. One of the fundamental questions you will face at that time will be whether you still have your first love for NVDA, and whether you still have your original reasons for joining this community. The survival of this community at that time will depend on your ability to unite to face a difficult situation, even if that means facing possible splits. One thing you should NOT do at that time: ignoring new users and outside critics, because they are influential opinion leaders and are key stakeholders in NVDA’s future. One thing you SHOULD do though: listen to others and think critically.



Hope this makes sense.

Merry (early) Christmas,

Joseph






.


Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Well having no access to a car.....:-)
Interestingly, we get far more reliable sticks if formatted at fat32 than if its fat. I have no idea exactly why though.
This is basically off topic, but let me also impart some knowledge about ram stick players for the blind which I have gleaned.
1. The players do not care about file names.
2. They will play recordings in the order they were copied to the stick, ie, its no good giving them names like 00000001.mp3
000000002.mp3 and copying 2 before 1 as that will mean 2 plays first.

3. copying from a batch file tends to preserve order of copies, as does copying a folder with files in it
4. If copied using a batch file it seems you do not get caching which means you do not have to tick safely remove when you have finished.


The players used for these tests are the Kings Audio ones.

Happy Christmas to all and don't eat too much pudding.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@ca.inter.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment


Interesting thread, guys.

I never thought of a batch sscript to do the trick. But yes, all file
systems are still available using the "format" command from cmd or
powershell.



It's not just the devices for the blind that use Fat32. As I pointed out in
a previous post, car stereos do as well. It would be very unwise of MS to
remove support for it. For one thing, NTFS is a Windows file system that is
not supported by many other devices/oses. Fat can work with basically
anything, even though it has limitations. They're the kind of limitations
that don't really matter when you just want to have music in your car, or
whatever.







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
coffeekingms@hotmail.com
Sent: December 24, 2017 5:24 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment



Hi

You're better at this than I am, I couldn't even have cobbled this together.
I can write a bash script to do it in Linux, since I know the cintax better
and I know the command line programs that format stuff, but in windows? Not
a chance. I never even considered that this was a bug, I assumed ms
deliberately removed it hoping people will migrate over to the newer file
systems. Which would be fine except that most blindy devices only support a
limited set of them, mostly windows ones, or at least OS agnostic ones like
fat and fat32. I do wish they would add ext2/3/4, btrfs, xfs, and some other
Linux file systems as native support. It would go well with microsoft's
supposed mission of supporting the competition. It would go right in with
wsl, windows subsystem for Linux and their support for gmail and iCloud
email accounts. Whether it will happen though is anyone's guess. I didn't
think they'd ever make windows installation accessible and when they did,
they did it right, I have to say. Except for Cortana, that over rides
narrator until you turn it off, and I've asked them to disable the speech
intro if narrator is on. Still allow Cortana functionality, just disable the
perky speech intro in favor of narrators, since it announces the intro
anyway.





Thanks

Kendell Clark





Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook



_____

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:41:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment



It does give a list no, but I guess some kind of addition could be made. I
have tweaked my system so that the drive letter is always e or f, but the
one I need to not format is m .
Its very quick, some might say lazy. Ahem. I don't suggest I'm any good at
this stuff, just know enough to get by... :-)
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


Hi

Thanks a lot for that little script, it was exactly what I was looking for.
Something to put on my desktop to to click on when I get a new flash drive.
Looking at the code, it seems to ask which stick to use, but does it
actually give a list of sticks, or do you need to provide the drive letter?
Also, a prompt for the volume label or name would be nice, but I think I can

edit the script to add that since the language doesn't seem too hard.
Something like /p "volume name?" or similar?

Thanks

Kendell Clark





Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook



________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:56:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment

Just in case I was thinking of this from my Windows 7 machine.
Does this work in 10?

@echo off


set /p drive= Which stick should I use?
echo Please wait...

format %drive%:/fs:fat32/v:tested
pause
exit

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio players for
the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of files
written, not on the file names as well.
It seems a little odd to remove such an option.

Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are pre
formatted in that way.
Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?

If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
Brian


bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for
flash drives for the moment


Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after
unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book
player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the
XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital
player can read neither of these file systems. I've submitted feedback to
ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This
is a problem because unless the dp's firmware is updated, extremely
unlikely, people who use windows 10 won't be able to format new flash
drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I'm sure
exist. They won't be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the
functionality. This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard
drives have only the ntfs option. I'm posting hear because I'm not
subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it's off topic, but
I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide
workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook















Re: important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

Stephen
 

YOu can format drives to fat32 with a 3rd party program, it's freeware.
http://www.ridgecrop.demon.co.uk/guiformat.htm

At 09:23 PM 12/24/2017, you wrote:
Hi
You're better at this than I am, I couldn't even have cobbled this together. I can write a bash script to do it in Linux, since I know the cintax better and I know the command line programs that format stuff, but in windows? Not a chance. I never even considered that this was a bug, I assumed ms deliberately removed it hoping people will migrate over to the newer file systems. Which would be fine except that most blindy devices only support a limited set of them, mostly windows ones, or at least OS agnostic ones like fat and fat32. I do wish they would add ext2/3/4, btrfs, xfs, and some other Linux file systems as native support. It would go well with microsoft's supposed mission of supporting the competition. It would go right in with wsl, windows subsystem for Linux and their support for gmail and iCloud email accounts. Whether it will happen though is anyone's guess. I didn't think they'd ever make windows installation accessible and when they did, they did it right, I have to say. Except for Cortana, that over rides narrator until you turn it off, and I've asked them to disable the speech intro if narrator is on. Still allow Cortana functionality, just disable the perky speech intro in favor of narrators, since it announces the intro anyway.


Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook


----------
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 3:41:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for flash drives for the moment

It does give a list no, but I guess some kind of addition could be made. I
have tweaked my system so that the drive letter is always e or f, but the
one I need to not format is m .
Its very quick, some might say lazy. Ahem. I don't suggest I'm any good at
this stuff, just know enough to get by... :-)
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


Hi

Thanks a lot for that little script, it was exactly what I was looking for.
Something to put on my desktop to to click on when I get a new flash drive.
Looking at the code, it seems to ask which stick to use, but does it
actually give a list of sticks, or do you need to provide the drive letter?
Also, a prompt for the volume label or name would be nice, but I think I can
edit the script to add that since the language doesn't seem too hard.
Something like /p "volume name?" or similar?

Thanks

Kendell Clark





Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook



________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 2:56:19 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment

Just in case I was thinking of this from my Windows 7 machine.
Does this work in 10?

@echo off


set /p drive= Which stick should I use?
echo Please wait...

format %drive%:/fs:fat32/v:tested
pause
exit

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io"
<bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting
for flash drives for the moment


Hmm, this would be important to know as the majority of audio players for
the blind that play ram sticks will not read ntfs.
I'm sure you know most of these players only work on the order of files
written, not on the file names as well.
It seems a little odd to remove such an option.

Luckily most players can read fat, and most generic sticks I see are pre
formatted in that way.
Tell me, what about the command line way of formatting?

If you don't know the syntax I can get it for you.
Brian


bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 6:25 AM
Subject: [nvda] important! Windows 10 doesn't allow fat 32 formatting for
flash drives for the moment


Hi all
This is just a warning, nothing earth shattering. I discovered after
unwrapping a new 64 gb flash drive for use with my nnls talking book
player that windows 10 version 1709, all updates installed, only has the
XFat, and ntfs options available when formatting the drive. The digital
player can read neither of these file systems. I've submitted feedback to
ms asking for fat32 to be restored but who knows if it will happen. This
is a problem because unless the dp's firmware is updated, extremely
unlikely, people who use windows 10 won't be able to format new flash
drives or reformat old ones without using another program, which I'm sure
exist. They won't be able to do it out of the box unless ms restores the
functionality. This seems to only apply to flash drives. External hard
drives have only the ntfs option. I'm posting hear because I'm not
subscribed to the baard talk list any longer. Sorry if it's off topic, but
I wanted to let everyone know so others can jump on this or provide
workarounds if needed. Right now I have a 32 gb flash drive I can use.

Thanks
Kendell Clark


Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook