Date   

Re: I'm dissappointed

erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

It isn't that way here in Ontario.

I had difficulty getting medical information last year. My doctor refused to provide accessible format. Fortunately, his manager knew better. She tried to get me to sign off on my freedom of access but after a couple of refusals, I finally got access. If that hadn't been the case, I would have filed a discrimination complaint against the doctor, and won easily. Filing is free and can be done by any one. Legal representation is free,; however, the legal support centre only takes cases based on chance of success. This would have been a shoe in.

I also have experience filing discrimination complaints in the states. The challenge was free and any one could file it. Legal advice is harder, but there are organizations that can help such as the NFB in the case of people who are blind.

Ontario law has the goal of making the province barrier-free by 2025. They are grossly behind schedule, but I hope more constituants will take an active roll and things will step up.

Best,

Erik

On January 2, 2018 4:11:36 AM "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io" <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

While I agree in principle with your reading of the laws, sadly it seems to
me, in the UK at least that the law has no teeth or indeed anyone prepared
for the lengthy proceedings and high costs of taking companies to court over
it.

I mean we have a law here that medical information is supplied in the format
of choice made by the patient, yet its flouted on a massive scale and as
there is no legal aid available for such cases they ge away with driving a
coach and horses through the law and the government turn a blind eye. It
seems much the same game is going on in the software world.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "erik burggraaf" <erik@erik-burggraaf.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2018 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed





Hi Sandra,
On December 31, 2017 8:33:02 AM "Sandra Pilz" <sandra914481@gmail.com>
wrote:

"For the new job I started this year, I can only use NVDA, because JAWS
will crash when I log into the web interface I am required to use."

I had this same experience when applying to a call centre job last year.
Hopefully your employer puts something into nvda on your behalf, since it
seems to be useful in these situations. It shouldn't matter which screen
reader you use to access web databases, but I and others have experienced
that nvda as a baseline works while jaws does not.


"However, I agree with Gene. JAWS is more easily configurable by the
user. You can label graphics, you can assign window classes and see if
that makes a program work more smoothly with NVDA, you can assign
application specific hotkeys. I am not so sure if the JAWS frames
feature still works so well under Windows 10. I just tried it recently
without success.
"

This is one area where I disagree. Not that jaws has the features or that
they are useful, but that they belong in NVDA. I believe that it is the
responsibility of developers to label their graphics and controls, draw
and
class their windows and controls properly, and build keyboard/touchscreen
support for their apps properly. This is increasingly required by law,
imposed by societal change, taught as programming best practice, and
demonstrably beneficial beyond the needs of disability communities.
Unfortunately, it's not all there yet, but within the next three years, it
will become legally and socially inacceptable to build software without
regard for accessibility standards, just as you wouldn't build out with no
regard for UI, performance, security, and other common standards and best
practices. I believe the development philosophy of NVDA is based on this.
A screen reader should read the screen, conveying the information already
provided in accessible format, doing as little interpretation as possible.
There's a school of thought on the list that says we should go to any
length to bash information into shape: install and try to use every screen
reader on the market for it's best task, build out features like rendering
images of text into passably readable format, and so on. I miss the days
of hitting a button and getting graphics labeled myself, but in the
current
legal, social, and economic situation, it just makes more sense to push
developers into programming best practice rather than re-invent the old,
expensive, not quite totally effective, way of doing things.

"Also, for me the question is not only can I do something with a screen
reader, but also how quickly can I do what I need to do. One example for
me is the text analysing feature of JAWS in MS Word. I think it helps a
lot when writing a document and checking the formatting. I can do this
with NVDA, too, but it takes a lot longer. The JAWS text analyser or
whatever they call it just checks the document for me and allows me to
see where unexpected formatting or characters have been found. I then
can check whether they are intended or not and make corrections. And it
is so much quicker to do it that way than to read the entire document
with NVDA reporting all attributes selectable in the document dialogue
of NVDA. And additionally, the latter method is so monotonous that there
is the risk of not catching all of the formatting problems."

I have to agree with you here. I am starting in on a computer programming
diploma, and having to build visually appealing user interfaces. It would
be fantastic to have an add-on that would do some intense format, layout,
style, information presented in a way that I could quickly make sure
certin
things look proper. Maybe I'll take this on as we're coming into python
in
winter semester. To me, this is a perfect example of the kind of thing a
screen reader should do.

"What would be the legal status for NVDA extensions written by a third
party to make a specific program more accessible? If the would they be
allowed to sell them? probably not, because NVDA is free. What would be
the incentive for them to develop these extensions for rarely used
software if they can only bill the hours once?"

I am not a lawyer and I haven'tttt read the developer documentation, but I
don't see why enterprise developers couldn't charge for add-ons. In fact,
now that I think of it, many of the voice synthesizer add-ons are paid
products.

"I'm just wondering if this could be
another reason why JAWS is chosen for the workplace more often than NVDA."

No, I think it has more to do with politics and the old paradigm than
anything else. When I was testing accessibility for that call centre job
last year, I was told that the company had python programmers in house.
They seemed to be willing to script their own bolt-ons in house. I'm
guessing this represented a huge cost savings, as I've heard quotes for
jaws scripting from $150 per hour up to $150 per line of code.

Now suppose that this call centre approached an old paradigm so called
access technology specialist company and asked for consulting on how to
accebilitize their IT infrestructure. What would the specialist say?
"install NVDA for free and pay us $150 per hour to write python"? or,
"install a floating licence of jaws for five grand, then pay us $150 per
line for proprietary scripts. Then buy future proofing to keep your at
and
it's scripts up-to-date". I think the second is more likely. The first
is
more stable, more long term sustainable, less proprietary, and cheeper,
but
the second is in line with the self-interest of the AT consultant.


"I think thanks to object navigation, NVDA could have a superior feature
to JAWS' being able to read frames. It would be cool if we were able to
specify a screen object, and then tell NVDA what we want it to do with
the object: read it whenever content changes, leftclick or rightclick it
and probably more. Frames in JAWS only worked if screen resolution
didn't change. If the actions were tied to an object and not a frame
thus not dependent on its dimensions on the screen, the configuration
could work for different people with different screen resolutions.
"

Right again, although this might already be possible. If not, it should
end up in an add-on one of these days. But again, for the vast majority
of
things, we expect the developer to develop and the screen reader to read
the screen. Reading specific sections of busy screens at a touch would be
super handy, but if your developer did their keyboard support properly,
there would be few if any instances of requiring some one to access
features exclusively with a mouse.


Best

Sandra






Am 23.12.2017 um 23:52 schrieb Gene:
You can't label graphics, you can't create frames and there is no
adjustment of the screen echo. There is also no way to skip baqck and
forward by line when the screen echo is set to all or when using read
to end and have speech continue. If these abilities were present, as
far as I know, that would make NVDA as user configurable as JAWS and
Window-eyes. These are important lacks in NVDA.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:34 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

This is not correct. NVDA is well adjustable, even much easier than jaws.



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 23.12.2017 um 03:47 schrieb Gene <gsasner@ripco.com
<mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>>:

You can't do what I could do when I used Pine with a shell account a
long time ago. I didn't need to create any frames or scripts. All I
had to do was set the screen echo of JAWS to all, open a message, and
then use the jaws skip line wile reading feature, right shift, to
very quickly jump to the start of the message body. Even if NVDA
reads such material when it appears on screen, you either listen to
everything or nothing and use the tedious read by line screen review
option. Hardly a convenient or reasonable way to go through thirty
e-mails.
Like it or not, NVDA isn't user definable. You can't label graphics
and you can't create frames. These are serious deficiencies even if
many of us don't need such options.
And you can't set the screen echo to all and then do what I did, as I
described. This may be an important ability for some users.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* coffeekingms@hotmail.com <mailto:coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
*Sent:* Friday, December 22, 2017 7:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

Hi

I concur. I firmly believe that NVDA can do most, if not all, the
things more expensive programs can do. With some very rare
exceptions. There are still some apps that require jfw with specific
scripts to be usable, but as time goes on those apps will dwindle
until there are none left. But for 99 percent of people, NVDA can
work for them, either alone or in combination with narrator, which
has gotten quite good. I don’t really set much store by such
presentations, as the few I’ve bothered to listen to gloss over the
free options as if they’re not there, are not worth mentioning or
aren’t good enough. This applies to NVDA as well as open source
operating systems like Linux. I have not listened to the presentation
people are talking about, so I don’t want to ruffle any feathers, but
as a rule I don’t listen to them. They tend to unilaterally insist
that only the paid apps are worth using. Except for the NVDA
podcasts. Those are great, although I don’t follow those either. I’m
just a user. I use NVDA on a daily basis and have found very little
that it can’t do. If it can’t navigate an app by the usual methods,
tab, shift tab, arrows, then it can by either touch, if you have a
touch screen or object navigation.Even when I was using Linux full
time I would keep up with NVDA’s progress, and NVDA is what
eventually brought me back to using windows again.

Thanks

Kendell Clark

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>; for
Windows 10

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> on behalf of Don H
<lmddh50@adams.net <mailto:lmddh50@adams.net>>
*Sent:* Friday, December 22, 2017 6:18:54 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed
I think that NVDA is just as good or better than any other screen
reader. I think the issue for businesses is the fact that NVDA is open
source thus in their minds less secure.




Re: making IE your default browser

Arlene
 

Hi again! Nevermind. I found the info.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Arlene
Sent: January-02-18 8:54 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] making IE your default browser

 

Hi. I’m shopping around for a win ten computer. I need to know how to make IE my default Browser.  Thought someone posted some info on how to do it. I thought I kept the info. I can’t for the life of me find it. How does one make IE the default browser? Thanks and have a good day!


making IE your default browser

Arlene
 

Hi. I’m shopping around for a win ten computer. I need to know how to make IE my default Browser.  Thought someone posted some info on how to do it. I thought I kept the info. I can’t for the life of me find it. How does one make IE the default browser? Thanks and have a good day!


Re: How can I get a previous version of an Add-on?

 

Hi,
If my guess is correct, I'll take a look at what's up and publish the update this Thursday.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ângelo Abrantes
Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 5:01 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] How can I get a previous version of an Add-on?

I currently have an add-on that does not work correctly in the latest version.
I needed to have the previous version. How can I get this version?
How can I get a GithUb Add-on's page?
thanks in advance
Ângelo Abrantes

---
Este e-mail foi verificado em termos de vírus pelo software antivírus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


My Documents Opening In Windows Media Player

tonea.ctr.morrow@...
 

It sounds like your default has accidentally gotten changed. Instead of file.docx being associated with Word, it has become associated with media player. You’ll need to reset it back to being associated with Word.

 

One method is to open word and find the associations in the program settings. That location varies depending upon the software version. The method I would use is the second method.

 

Go to any word file. Right click to bring up a context menu. The first item that should appear is Open with Whatever. If that whatever is media player, you have confirmation that the associations have been broken. If it is Word, then the problem is somewhere else.

 

Let’s assume it says Open with Media player. Farther down the list is a sub-menu called Open With. Choose that one. Inside that menu at the very bottom, is the option, “Choose Default Program…”. Needless to say, that’s the selection you want to make. From there, choose Word. Your problem should now be fixed.

 

Of course, I’m running Windows 7 from work, so your mileage may vary. I don’t know if any of the menus changed with Windows 10.

 

IF this works for you, then you have my gratitude. I appreciate the opportunity to help given all the help I’m receiving.

 

Tonea Morrow

 

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ibrahim Ajayi
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 4:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] My Documents Opening In Windows Media Player

 

Hello:

I am having another unusual and odd problem.

But this problem has nothing to do with NVDA, although I use the screenreader.

Actually, many of my documents are now opening in windows media player.  The documents were created by me in microsoft word, and wordpad, but now they open in windows media player.

I am also having the same problem with some materials Emailed to me.

The attachments are in word document,, but when I attempt to open them, they open in windows media player.

I just can't figure out what this problem is all about.

Please has anyone ever had this problem at any time? how did you resolve it.

Hope to read your response.

Ibrahim.

 

 


How can I get a previous version of an Add-on?

Ângelo Abrantes
 

I currently have an add-on that does not work correctly in the latest version.
I needed to have the previous version. How can I get this version?
How can I get a GithUb Add-on's page?
thanks in advance
Ângelo Abrantes

---
Este e-mail foi verificado em termos de vírus pelo software antivírus Avast.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Re: Issues with dropbox addon

Fernando Apan
 

Good morning, Bryan.

Oh, I see. Well it's very unfortunate. Then we'll have to wait and see what happen.

Thanks for your responce.


Fernando Apan.

El 02/01/2018 a las 03:14 a.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io escribió:
Well I reported this on Dropbox36, and its now on version 40.xx. Unfortunately this is not the only problem. They seem to have changed a lot of their web site as well making it quite hard to navigate for unexplained reasons with nvda.
Maybe somebody with the knowledge might like to look at this. I have in the past found there  tech help quite good, but they seem, increasingly not to understand where a blind user has issues, which is a little sad.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Fernando Apan" <ferapan@utexas.edu>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2018 3:40 AM
Subject: [nvda] Issues with dropbox addon


Hi Everyone,

First of all, I hope you all are having a great year.

I'm experiensing a very extrainge problem with the firefox addon. It seems it hasn't been updated for a while. When I install it and press NVDA+alt+f I get this message: dropbox not found.

Would you please help me to figure out what could be happening?

Thanks in advance.


Fernando Apan.





Re: Welcome to NVDA 2018: seeking recommendations for one or two professional grade apps to showcase

 

Hi,

One thing I forgot to add: for one of the apps, I’ll also demonstrate contracted braille input.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Tuesday, January 2, 2018 3:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Welcome to NVDA 2018: seeking recommendations for one or two professional grade apps to showcase

 

Hi all,

 

An update on Welcome to NVDA 2018 tutorial set: part 4 (web browsing) is about to be published (more on that on a separate thread).

 

As part of the tutorial series, I have a section reserved for showcasing popular applications with NVDA (part 5). At the moment they include:

 

  • Microsoft Office: Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook
  • Universal apps: Microsoft Store, Calculator, Mail, Skype, Windows Defender
  • Command line tools
  • Notepad++
  • Kindle for PC
  • GoldWave
  • StationPlaylist Studio
  • Possibly Microsoft Visual Studio and/or Eclipse
  • Possibly VLC

 

I’d like to feature one or two professional grade apps in the tutorial set. Professional grade apps include not the kind of apps listed above, but rather apps used in corporate environments, schools, other organizational, and professional settings. Examples may include Quicken, Microsoft Access and other software in the similar league.

 

Also, in case people want me to do it, I’d like to try what people consider the most difficult kinds of programs you can give me. These may include programs with no control labels at all, pure graphics and what not (and no, not games). I would like to showcase one or two of these to highlight issues users will face when working with these kinds of applications and provide suggestions to developers in the tutorial, and in case of graphics, a chance to let you see the power of OCR (if it works).

 

For all the apps listed above (including apps I’m requesting), I’ll showcase various techniques you can use to interact with these apps (all in part 5). These will include classic keyboard navigation commands (for majority of cases), as well as object navigation (certain parts of PowerPoint and universal apps), touchscreen and mouse manipulation (for one or two apps including Microsoft Store), review modes and review cursor (command line tools and Notepad++), OCR (for ones filled with graphics with recognizable text), browse mode (Kindle for PC and protected Microsoft Excel workbooks), elements list (Microsoft Office applications) and giving feedback to developers. Some apps will require add-ons, and some cannot be demonstrated due to time constraints or to highlight usage tips or to explain a point or two.

 

If you have suggestions, please send them to me (preferably offlist) by no later than January 4, 2018.

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph


Welcome to NVDA 2018: seeking recommendations for one or two professional grade apps to showcase

 

Hi all,

 

An update on Welcome to NVDA 2018 tutorial set: part 4 (web browsing) is about to be published (more on that on a separate thread).

 

As part of the tutorial series, I have a section reserved for showcasing popular applications with NVDA (part 5). At the moment they include:

 

  • Microsoft Office: Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook
  • Universal apps: Microsoft Store, Calculator, Mail, Skype, Windows Defender
  • Command line tools
  • Notepad++
  • Kindle for PC
  • GoldWave
  • StationPlaylist Studio
  • Possibly Microsoft Visual Studio and/or Eclipse
  • Possibly VLC

 

I’d like to feature one or two professional grade apps in the tutorial set. Professional grade apps include not the kind of apps listed above, but rather apps used in corporate environments, schools, other organizational, and professional settings. Examples may include Quicken, Microsoft Access and other software in the similar league.

 

Also, in case people want me to do it, I’d like to try what people consider the most difficult kinds of programs you can give me. These may include programs with no control labels at all, pure graphics and what not (and no, not games). I would like to showcase one or two of these to highlight issues users will face when working with these kinds of applications and provide suggestions to developers in the tutorial, and in case of graphics, a chance to let you see the power of OCR (if it works).

 

For all the apps listed above (including apps I’m requesting), I’ll showcase various techniques you can use to interact with these apps (all in part 5). These will include classic keyboard navigation commands (for majority of cases), as well as object navigation (certain parts of PowerPoint and universal apps), touchscreen and mouse manipulation (for one or two apps including Microsoft Store), review modes and review cursor (command line tools and Notepad++), OCR (for ones filled with graphics with recognizable text), browse mode (Kindle for PC and protected Microsoft Excel workbooks), elements list (Microsoft Office applications) and giving feedback to developers. Some apps will require add-ons, and some cannot be demonstrated due to time constraints or to highlight usage tips or to explain a point or two.

 

If you have suggestions, please send them to me (preferably offlist) by no later than January 4, 2018.

 

Thank you.

Cheers,

Joseph


Re: Using Win10's Mail App

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

That is very like with Outlook Express then.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Mullins" <cjmullins29@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2018 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Win10's Mail App


Hi

After opening a message containing an attachment, you will be focused in the message part of the window. Press shift+tab and you will move focus to the attached file, press applications key and a pop-up window opens giving you the option to open or save the attachment.



Cheers

Chris



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of The Gamages
Sent: 1 January 2018 15:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Win10's Mail App



Hello,

Having looked at the tutorial, I find that, while in a message, pressing the Alt key brings up the list of actions, the same as the context menu, it doesn’t bring up the ribbons. Has all this been updated? or is my Mail app messing me about?

I have only just decided to have another go at the mail app in W10, I can do most things, but I can’t save an attatchment, is this in the ribbons?



Comments please?



Best Regards, Jim.



From: Gene New Zealand <mailto:hurrikennyandopo@outlook.co.nz>

Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 6:30 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Win10's Mail App



Hi



If you go to the following link off my website at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nvda%20tutorials%20for%20other%20programs.html

Then jump down by headings until you get to the windows 10 mail app section there is a tutorial which was created by David.



Hope it helps.



Gene nz





On 12/30/2017 2:43 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Good Evening,

Are any instructions for using Win10's Mail app with NVDA? Thanks and an early wish for a happy new year.

Pauline







--
Image removed by sender. Image NVDAcertified expert

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Humanware Companion

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Sounds like a similar issue I had in the True call app. I seem to recall a sighted person said for a moment two files get highlighted, and its quite sluggish to scroll, even worse than explorer on a throttled back processor is.
I wonder if its the old UIA slow routine issue again?
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick" <softwarethatworks@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2018 4:39 PM
Subject: [nvda] Humanware Companion


Hello listers:



Humanware makes a software package (called humanware Companion) for
transferring files between a PC and a removable storage device, like a USB
stick or SD card. This software makes it easy to transfer different types of
files to the special directory areas for devices like the Victor Reader
Stream. A tree view is presented for the files on the PC and another for the
files on the removable storage device. When using the arrow keys to navigate
the tree views, NVDA speaks the previous item before speaking the item moved
to. For example, assume the list consists of three items, labeled book1,
book2 and book3. When first entering the tree view, "book1" is spoken (along
with size and whether the item is checked). If I then hit the down arrow
key, NVDA speaks "book1 book2" instead of just "book2. Pressing the down
arrow again and NVDA speaks "book2 book3" instead of just "book3." The same
behavior is exhibited when using page up or page down, the line where the
focus is first spoken followed by the line with the new focus. This does not
happen using the Window Eyes screen reader. Only the new line with focus is
spoken.



I am running the latest released versions of Windows 10, NVDA and the
Humanware Companion.



The latest version of the Humanware Companion can be downloaded at:



http://support.humanware.com/en-usa/support/humanware_companion



I will also send this information to Humanware.



Rick


Re: help wanted in porting espeak fixes over to windows

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Yes it very much seems to depend on the person. I found max a bit nasal and only like female ones for reading out documents,not navigating. I originally did Quincy for laptops, but people seem to like it for its more bassy voice. I do, but then I wrote it so...
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2018 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] help wanted in porting espeak fixes over to windows


Hi, Brian,

The two variants I found that are clear are Max and female 5.

Rosemarie



-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 11:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] help wanted in porting espeak fixes over to windows

Please do not insult things that others find fine.
It may be rubbish to you but everyone has their favourite voice or synth.
That is just a personal thing.
I have always used Espeak with few problems. it is going through a rocky
patch just now but so many people I talk to in the flesh so to speak have
never ever tried any of the variants or played around with the settings to
customise it.
We do not really want another flame war on here about synths do we?
please pretty please?
Discussions of how to try to correct some of the recent changes are fine,
but just coming in and saying xxx synth is rubbish helps nobody at all, in
my view.
Oh and Happy 2018
Try not to break it before next year!

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Beasley" <pjbeasley23@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] help wanted in porting espeak fixes over to windows


Espeak is rubbish.

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 6:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] help wanted in porting espeak fixes over to windows

To be honest, and I know all the devs will shoot me down for this, but I
have sceen no real reason that we shouldn't drop back to the last real
version of espeak by default, have espeak ng as an optional or include
both synths they have seperate directorys for data and so I see no real
reason we can't have both installed, true espeak ng's espeak.dll will
have to be espeakng.dll or something but to be honest.

The espeak ng screwups don't worry me that much but I do know for bidden
is not fir bidden.

pir cent is not purcent.

or whatever it is.

Its almost like spaces in some words are being added when they were
coded in.

At any rate, mr espeak robot is not to be understood.

Its a crappy low powered synth used for admin work and other generalness.

If I wanted my voices understood I'd use my slow good quality but
resource hungry synth I have about.

Its not a big issue but the fact the list is growing.

They have fixed most of the accent issues but even so.

I really do hope that things continue to work.




On 31/12/2017 8:51 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I had always understood that the engine in nvda is updated regularly to
take account of fixes, but recently there seem to have been a number of
nasty bugs and silly mispronunciations added during code clean up. I'm
speaking about UK English here and so have gone back to Speech Player in
Espeak add on to get to an older version of Espeak which does not have
these issues.
In my view there seems to be a focus in the team to attempt to make the
code understandable, by moving stuff about. I guess this makes sense if
they want to understand it, but its not really doing anything to fix
crashes inimogees, bad pronunciations or other strange funnies, in fact
its already broken language dictionaries and some other bits on the
latest nvda meaning that Nvda team had to make work around to help them
use the latest code.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message ----- From: <coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 4:18 AM
Subject: [nvda] help wanted in porting espeak fixes over to windows


Hi all
I maintain a repository of espeak fixes. That is, pronunciation fixes
for the US English language for words and names espeak ng mangles, for
Linux based operating systems, located at
http//GitHub.com/coffeeking/espeak-en-us. I've been wanting to for some
time port these over to windows and NVDA, as well as making them
available to anyone using the sapi5 version of espeak ng. I don't have
the coding skills to do this though and need help. I've tried to get help
on the espeak ng mailing list and no one seems interested. The biggest
issue is writing a script to compile the fixes into espeak ng. I don't
know enough coding to do this. The other big problem is that to be able
to compile the fixes, which are just text tfiles into the binary
dictionary format espeak ng needs, you have to have installed espeak ng
into whatever OS you use, I don't think you can do it with just NVDA's
built in copy. I'd love to be able to get rid of this step if at all
possible, since it would drastically increase the ease of new users being
able to use and contribute to my fixes. My goal is to eventually become
part of espeak ng's development itself by helping reece dunn with US
English, although I haven't managed it yet. My fixes are occasionally
added to espeak ng itself, but only when reece has time to comb through
them and fix any I get wrong. Is anyone interested in helping me make it
possible to use these with NVDA? I don't know where NVDA looks for espeak
ng's dictionary files, so in addition to being able to compile the files,
you have to copy them to wherever it is NVDA looks for them so it can
pick up on them. I'm not sure about the sapi 5 version of espeak ng, but
I'd like to make it possible for people to use my fixes regardless how
they use espeak ng or what they use it on, right now it's limited
strictly to Linux or unix OSes since I had help with the bash script
which compiles and copies them.
Thanks
Kendell Clark

Sent from my Vizio Ultrabook





.











Re: Issues with dropbox addon

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Well I reported this on Dropbox36, and its now on version 40.xx. Unfortunately this is not the only problem. They seem to have changed a lot of their web site as well making it quite hard to navigate for unexplained reasons with nvda.
Maybe somebody with the knowledge might like to look at this. I have in the past found there tech help quite good, but they seem, increasingly not to understand where a blind user has issues, which is a little sad.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
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in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fernando Apan" <ferapan@utexas.edu>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2018 3:40 AM
Subject: [nvda] Issues with dropbox addon


Hi Everyone,

First of all, I hope you all are having a great year.

I'm experiensing a very extrainge problem with the firefox addon. It seems it hasn't been updated for a while. When I install it and press NVDA+alt+f I get this message: dropbox not found.

Would you please help me to figure out what could be happening?

Thanks in advance.


Fernando Apan.



Re: I'm dissappointed

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

While I agree in principle with your reading of the laws, sadly it seems to me, in the UK at least that the law has no teeth or indeed anyone prepared for the lengthy proceedings and high costs of taking companies to court over it.

I mean we have a law here that medical information is supplied in the format of choice made by the patient, yet its flouted on a massive scale and as there is no legal aid available for such cases they ge away with driving a coach and horses through the law and the government turn a blind eye. It seems much the same game is going on in the software world.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "erik burggraaf" <erik@erik-burggraaf.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2018 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed





Hi Sandra,
On December 31, 2017 8:33:02 AM "Sandra Pilz" <sandra914481@gmail.com> wrote:

"For the new job I started this year, I can only use NVDA, because JAWS
will crash when I log into the web interface I am required to use."

I had this same experience when applying to a call centre job last year.
Hopefully your employer puts something into nvda on your behalf, since it
seems to be useful in these situations. It shouldn't matter which screen
reader you use to access web databases, but I and others have experienced
that nvda as a baseline works while jaws does not.


"However, I agree with Gene. JAWS is more easily configurable by the
user. You can label graphics, you can assign window classes and see if
that makes a program work more smoothly with NVDA, you can assign
application specific hotkeys. I am not so sure if the JAWS frames
feature still works so well under Windows 10. I just tried it recently
without success.
"

This is one area where I disagree. Not that jaws has the features or that
they are useful, but that they belong in NVDA. I believe that it is the
responsibility of developers to label their graphics and controls, draw and
class their windows and controls properly, and build keyboard/touchscreen
support for their apps properly. This is increasingly required by law,
imposed by societal change, taught as programming best practice, and
demonstrably beneficial beyond the needs of disability communities.
Unfortunately, it's not all there yet, but within the next three years, it
will become legally and socially inacceptable to build software without
regard for accessibility standards, just as you wouldn't build out with no
regard for UI, performance, security, and other common standards and best
practices. I believe the development philosophy of NVDA is based on this.
A screen reader should read the screen, conveying the information already
provided in accessible format, doing as little interpretation as possible.
There's a school of thought on the list that says we should go to any
length to bash information into shape: install and try to use every screen
reader on the market for it's best task, build out features like rendering
images of text into passably readable format, and so on. I miss the days
of hitting a button and getting graphics labeled myself, but in the current
legal, social, and economic situation, it just makes more sense to push
developers into programming best practice rather than re-invent the old,
expensive, not quite totally effective, way of doing things.

"Also, for me the question is not only can I do something with a screen
reader, but also how quickly can I do what I need to do. One example for
me is the text analysing feature of JAWS in MS Word. I think it helps a
lot when writing a document and checking the formatting. I can do this
with NVDA, too, but it takes a lot longer. The JAWS text analyser or
whatever they call it just checks the document for me and allows me to
see where unexpected formatting or characters have been found. I then
can check whether they are intended or not and make corrections. And it
is so much quicker to do it that way than to read the entire document
with NVDA reporting all attributes selectable in the document dialogue
of NVDA. And additionally, the latter method is so monotonous that there
is the risk of not catching all of the formatting problems."

I have to agree with you here. I am starting in on a computer programming
diploma, and having to build visually appealing user interfaces. It would
be fantastic to have an add-on that would do some intense format, layout,
style, information presented in a way that I could quickly make sure certin
things look proper. Maybe I'll take this on as we're coming into python in
winter semester. To me, this is a perfect example of the kind of thing a
screen reader should do.

"What would be the legal status for NVDA extensions written by a third
party to make a specific program more accessible? If the would they be
allowed to sell them? probably not, because NVDA is free. What would be
the incentive for them to develop these extensions for rarely used
software if they can only bill the hours once?"

I am not a lawyer and I haven'tttt read the developer documentation, but I
don't see why enterprise developers couldn't charge for add-ons. In fact,
now that I think of it, many of the voice synthesizer add-ons are paid
products.

"I'm just wondering if this could be
another reason why JAWS is chosen for the workplace more often than NVDA."

No, I think it has more to do with politics and the old paradigm than
anything else. When I was testing accessibility for that call centre job
last year, I was told that the company had python programmers in house.
They seemed to be willing to script their own bolt-ons in house. I'm
guessing this represented a huge cost savings, as I've heard quotes for
jaws scripting from $150 per hour up to $150 per line of code.

Now suppose that this call centre approached an old paradigm so called
access technology specialist company and asked for consulting on how to
accebilitize their IT infrestructure. What would the specialist say?
"install NVDA for free and pay us $150 per hour to write python"? or,
"install a floating licence of jaws for five grand, then pay us $150 per
line for proprietary scripts. Then buy future proofing to keep your at and
it's scripts up-to-date". I think the second is more likely. The first is
more stable, more long term sustainable, less proprietary, and cheeper, but
the second is in line with the self-interest of the AT consultant.


"I think thanks to object navigation, NVDA could have a superior feature
to JAWS' being able to read frames. It would be cool if we were able to
specify a screen object, and then tell NVDA what we want it to do with
the object: read it whenever content changes, leftclick or rightclick it
and probably more. Frames in JAWS only worked if screen resolution
didn't change. If the actions were tied to an object and not a frame
thus not dependent on its dimensions on the screen, the configuration
could work for different people with different screen resolutions.
"

Right again, although this might already be possible. If not, it should
end up in an add-on one of these days. But again, for the vast majority of
things, we expect the developer to develop and the screen reader to read
the screen. Reading specific sections of busy screens at a touch would be
super handy, but if your developer did their keyboard support properly,
there would be few if any instances of requiring some one to access
features exclusively with a mouse.


Best

Sandra






Am 23.12.2017 um 23:52 schrieb Gene:
You can't label graphics, you can't create frames and there is no
adjustment of the screen echo. There is also no way to skip baqck and
forward by line when the screen echo is set to all or when using read
to end and have speech continue. If these abilities were present, as
far as I know, that would make NVDA as user configurable as JAWS and
Window-eyes. These are important lacks in NVDA.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:34 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

This is not correct. NVDA is well adjustable, even much easier than jaws.



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 23.12.2017 um 03:47 schrieb Gene <gsasner@ripco.com
<mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>>:

You can't do what I could do when I used Pine with a shell account a
long time ago. I didn't need to create any frames or scripts. All I
had to do was set the screen echo of JAWS to all, open a message, and
then use the jaws skip line wile reading feature, right shift, to
very quickly jump to the start of the message body. Even if NVDA
reads such material when it appears on screen, you either listen to
everything or nothing and use the tedious read by line screen review
option. Hardly a convenient or reasonable way to go through thirty
e-mails.
Like it or not, NVDA isn't user definable. You can't label graphics
and you can't create frames. These are serious deficiencies even if
many of us don't need such options.
And you can't set the screen echo to all and then do what I did, as I
described. This may be an important ability for some users.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* coffeekingms@hotmail.com <mailto:coffeekingms@hotmail.com>
*Sent:* Friday, December 22, 2017 7:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed

Hi

I concur. I firmly believe that NVDA can do most, if not all, the
things more expensive programs can do. With some very rare
exceptions. There are still some apps that require jfw with specific
scripts to be usable, but as time goes on those apps will dwindle
until there are none left. But for 99 percent of people, NVDA can
work for them, either alone or in combination with narrator, which
has gotten quite good. I don’t really set much store by such
presentations, as the few I’ve bothered to listen to gloss over the
free options as if they’re not there, are not worth mentioning or
aren’t good enough. This applies to NVDA as well as open source
operating systems like Linux. I have not listened to the presentation
people are talking about, so I don’t want to ruffle any feathers, but
as a rule I don’t listen to them. They tend to unilaterally insist
that only the paid apps are worth using. Except for the NVDA
podcasts. Those are great, although I don’t follow those either. I’m
just a user. I use NVDA on a daily basis and have found very little
that it can’t do. If it can’t navigate an app by the usual methods,
tab, shift tab, arrows, then it can by either touch, if you have a
touch screen or object navigation.Even when I was using Linux full
time I would keep up with NVDA’s progress, and NVDA is what
eventually brought me back to using windows again.

Thanks

Kendell Clark

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>; for
Windows 10

------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> on behalf of Don H
<lmddh50@adams.net <mailto:lmddh50@adams.net>>
*Sent:* Friday, December 22, 2017 6:18:54 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed
I think that NVDA is just as good or better than any other screen
reader. I think the issue for businesses is the fact that NVDA is open
source thus in their minds less secure.




Re: Using Win10's Mail App

The Gamages
 

Hello Chris and David,
 
Got both your messages and all is now clear, thanks very much.
 
Best Regards, Jim.
 

Sent: Monday, January 01, 2018 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Win10's Mail App
 

Hi

After opening a message containing an attachment, you will be focused in the message part of the window.  Press shift+tab and you will move focus to the attached file, press applications key and a pop-up window opens giving you the option to open or save the attachment.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of The Gamages
Sent: 1 January 2018 15:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Win10's Mail App

 

Hello,

Having looked at the tutorial, I find that, while in a message, pressing the Alt key brings up the list of actions, the same as the context menu, it doesn’t bring up the ribbons. Has all this been updated? or is my Mail app messing me about?

I have only just decided to have another go at the mail app in W10, I can do most things, but I can’t save an attatchment, is this in the ribbons?

 

Comments please?

 

Best Regards, Jim.

 

Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2017 6:30 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Win10's Mail App

 

Hi

 

If you go to the following link off my website at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nvda%20tutorials%20for%20other%20programs.html

Then jump down by headings until you get to the windows 10 mail app section there is a tutorial which was created by David.

 

Hope it helps.

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 12/30/2017 2:43 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Good Evening,

Are any instructions for using Win10's Mail app with NVDA?  Thanks and an early wish for a happy new year.

Pauline



 

--
Image removed by sender. Image NVDA
        certified expert

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Accessible Postgresql GUI Client

Edhoari Setiyoso
 

Hi Jason,

I was about to reply my own thread with the same answer that you sent :)

I used adminer a while back when using linux as main workstation and completely forgot it. Thanks for your reply :)

On 01-Jan-18 7:50 PM, Jacob Kruger wrote:
For things like mySQL, etc., I often enough use this single PHP file web interface for database administration, and, it includes offering support for postGreSQL - if the server it's running under has support for database connections to postGreSQL - WAMP, running here on my windows 10 64 bit machine does:

https://www.adminer.org/


HTH


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile, but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 2018/01/01 10:08, Edhoari Setiyoso wrote:
Hi all.

I'm looking for accessible postgresql GUI Client for my work. I tried using dbeaver. NVDA can read most but could not get result query tab read by NVDA. I also tried pgadmin but it just refused to work in my system.

So far I'm using command line tools but it's quite difficult to handle large sql code.

My system is Windows 10 x64

Any help would be appreciated.

--
Best Regards

Edhoari Setiyoso
edhoari <dot> s [at] gmail <dot> com


Issues with dropbox addon

Fernando Apan
 

Hi Everyone,

First of all, I hope you all are having a great year.

I'm experiensing a very extrainge problem with the firefox addon. It seems it hasn't been updated for a while. When I install it and press NVDA+alt+f I get this message: dropbox not found.

Would you please help me to figure out what could be happening?

Thanks in advance.


Fernando Apan.


Re: New add-on - IndentNav

derek riemer
 

We need you to put a GPL header on this file so that anyone downloading it knows it complies with GPL (This is because it's running in NVDA's GPL process).


Next, let us know when you are ready for this to go on the addons site (if you want that which I assume you do).

Other tidbits, not needing changed to pass code review:
def isEmptyLine(self, s):
Did you know about speech.isBlank?


Why is there a random pass at the end of the file?

On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 6:43 PM, Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...> wrote:
Hi guys,


I just wrote my first NVDA add-on:

https://github.com/mltony/nvda-indent-nav


It solves two problems:

1. In browsers you can jump to paragraphs with the same horizontal offset. For example, it can be useful to read first-level comments on web-pages that present a hierarchical trees of comments, like reddit. Now you can simply find the first comment and press NVDA+Alt+DownArrow to go to the next first-level comment.

2. While editing source code in many programming languages, it allows you to navigate by the indentation level. For example, you can move to previous/next lines with the same indentation level by pressing NVDA+Alt+Up or DownArrow. You can also jump to a parent line or to first child.


Please let me know if anyone finds it useful, or if you have any suggestions.


Tony










--

Derek Riemer: Improving the world one byte at a time!

  • University of Colorado Boulder Department of computer science, 4th year undergraduate student.
  • Accessibility enthusiast.
  • Proud user of the NVDA screen reader.
  • Open source enthusiast.
  • Skier.

Personal website



Re: New add-on - IndentNav

MJW <matthewjwilliams101@...>
 

Tony, a v useful add-on; good thinking, good work.

On 02/01/2018, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
I'm forwarding this to the add-ons community in case someone is interested
in using and/or reviewing it for inclusion in our website.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony
Malykh
Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 5:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] New add-on - IndentNav

Hi guys,


I just wrote my first NVDA add-on:

https://github.com/mltony/nvda-indent-nav


It solves two problems:

1. In browsers you can jump to paragraphs with the same horizontal offset.
For example, it can be useful to read first-level comments on web-pages that
present a hierarchical trees of comments, like reddit.
Now you can simply find the first comment and press NVDA+Alt+DownArrow to go
to the next first-level comment.

2. While editing source code in many programming languages, it allows you to
navigate by the indentation level. For example, you can move to
previous/next lines with the same indentation level by pressing
NVDA+Alt+Up or DownArrow. You can also jump to a parent line or to first
child.


Please let me know if anyone finds it useful, or if you have any
suggestions.


Tony











Re: New add-on - IndentNav

 

Hi,
I'm forwarding this to the add-ons community in case someone is interested in using and/or reviewing it for inclusion in our website.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Malykh
Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 5:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] New add-on - IndentNav

Hi guys,


I just wrote my first NVDA add-on:

https://github.com/mltony/nvda-indent-nav


It solves two problems:

1. In browsers you can jump to paragraphs with the same horizontal offset. For example, it can be useful to read first-level comments on web-pages that present a hierarchical trees of comments, like reddit.
Now you can simply find the first comment and press NVDA+Alt+DownArrow to go to the next first-level comment.

2. While editing source code in many programming languages, it allows you to navigate by the indentation level. For example, you can move to previous/next lines with the same indentation level by pressing
NVDA+Alt+Up or DownArrow. You can also jump to a parent line or to first
child.


Please let me know if anyone finds it useful, or if you have any
suggestions.


Tony