Date   

Re: say copy selected text

Gene
 

This message is long but it states and explains in detail why copy and paste is an important feature, and even more so with the poorly designed, paternalistic, read contents of clipboard feature available now. 
 
Where else do you find it very slow and buggy?  From my use, it isn't very slow and buggy much of the time.  I found one program, free video converter, where it prevents pasting of an address into the program.  It says pasted but the address is still the last one you used when not using the plugin.  You said it had problems in Word.  I don't have Word.  But in Notepad and Wordpad, using XP, there are no problems.  There are no problems copying and pasting in My Computer's folders and files list, nor in Windows Explorer.  When copying files to the clipboard, it is slow in reporting that something is copied.  But I'd rather have a delay, I'm not sure how long yours willl be.  I'm using an old slow machine and on mine, the delay may be a second or one and one half seconds.  Well worth it when compared with this possibility.  You aren't using the add on.  You copied and pasted a lot of files or even five or six from place to place.  You go to copy and paste more files to the same or a different location.  Since you aren't using the plugin, you get no indication about whether files have been copied to the clipboard or pasted.  You find, to your considerable annoyance, after pasting, that you have pasted the previous files to another location or that you now have duplicates of every file you previously pasted because copy didn't work even though you used the correct command and entered it correctly as far as keyboard technique is concerned.  You now have to delete the files from where they have just been copied, tgo back, copy the files you do want again, and then paste again.  If you are using clipspeak, this won't happen. 
 
As I said, this is an important feature.  People try to fob this off by saying, you can check what you have copied to the clipboard by using the speak contents of clipboard command, available in NVDA.  That's fine for small amounts of text.  But the clipboard feature wants to be smarter than you are.  It is designed not to speak larger amounts of ttext, only telling the number of characters.  Great design!  What if I want to copy a large amount of text and I just copied another large amount of text and pasted it previously.  How is knowing the number of characters going to help if it's one thousand three hundred characters the previous time and one thousand one hundred twenty characters the second time?  Yes, if you make a point of remembering the previous number you'll know if copying occurred.  But who should have to do this?  This is 2017.  This is the equivalent of a crank starter on a model T Ford.  And, though very unlikely, the number of characters might be the same or differ only by a few numbers such as one thousand two hundred fifty five and one thousand two hundred fifty two.  Or it may be more, two thousand three hundred twenty five.  Unless you really make an effort to remember the first number, you may not realize that the second number is different or you may not be sure.  In addition, when you copy files or folders to the clipboard, you are told something like no text on clipboard.  That's really helpful in teling you what files /and or folders you have pasted. 
 
If these levels of disfunction and poor design are acceptable in this feature, then why isn't a certain amount of inaccuracy acceptable in copying and pasting?  And I see no evidence that such is necessary based on past experience with JAWS and System Access to go. 
 
In short, the read contents of clipboard should be redesigned and should read everything that's there.  Programmers should not assume what is best for the user in a case like this.  It's paternalistic.  All the reader has to do to stop reading is press control, as in all other cases where speech is occurring.  As I recall, the excuse for not having the feature work that way is that the reader probably won't want to hear extended text.  Fine.  So let the reader press control. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 3:53 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

Yes, I did wonder though many years ago  Dolphin had this in its novice mode
and it seemed to actually be reliable in what it said, but of course I never
did actually do exhaustive tests.

Besides, in those days most screenreaders used display chain drivers and it
may well be that it could be detected by some subtle change in the screen
content.
 The clipspeak is very slow and buggy, sadly though in most cases it does
work. Fails in Goldwave and creates spurious memory errors in some versions
of word.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text


> The reason it isn't built in is precisely what you just said - when it was
> first being looked at, we couldn't actually know whether text had been
> cut,
> copied or pasted etc.  All we could do was detect that control+c had been
> pressed and know that is GENERALLY used for copy.  We didn't want to tell
> the user something had been copied when it hadn't, so instead there is the
> "Speak command keys" option (NVDA+4 or via the NVDA keyboard preferences
> NVDA+control+k) which will read CONTROL+C in that instance.
>
> The SpeakClip add-on does read the command - cut, copy, paste, select all
> etc.  It does make an effort to report this intelligently.  I recall a
> conversation with someone recently who said it is now more possible to
> accurately tell what has happened (text has been cut, a file has been
> copied, etc).  If that is the case, then it potentially could be
> considered
> to be built in.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Quentin.
>
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
> bglists@...> wrote:
>
>> Been here before. There is a fake clipboard announcement add on but its
>> not intelligent in that its really just reading the key combinations.
>> There
>> was an intelligent one being developed but it was slow and prone to
>> malfunctions and creating memory errors in Microsoft Word so I
>> uninstalled
>> it.
>> I have always said it should be designed in as a novice mode bit of help,
>> but at the time I think it was thought too hard to make it take into
>> account all the instances and get the indication correct.
>> This is one to bring up again on the add ons list I'd imagine.
>> Brian
>>
>> bglists@...
>> Sent via blueyonder.
>> Please address personal email to:-
>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>> in the display name field.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin" <kleeva5@...>
>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 6:38 PM
>> Subject: [nvda] say copy selected text
>>
>>
>> How can I set NVDA to say copy selected text to the clip board and other
>> like commands when I copy, cut or paste!
>>
>> E-mail is golden!!!
>> Kevin Lee
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
> Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>




my pc works properly but NVDA IS NOT WORKINF FINE IN WINDOWS10

Moti Azrad
 

Dear all,

 

I have windows10 home edition 64 bits.

Jaws 2018 works very well.

Nvda, 2017.4 or any snapshot, don't work properly.

My question:

Every month, I am doing disk cleanup and use the file system cleaning too.

I delete it and  make after that defrag or optimize my SSD C: drive.

can NVDA be damaged with this action I'm doing monthly?

Again, Jaws is not damaged and works very well but NVDA, does not work properly with some programs as: firefox, google chrome, ms outlook 2010 Etc.

I use to delete my restore points and create manually one.

 

Thanks for any explanation or help for my isuue with NVDA.

Moti


Re: say copy selected text

Brian's Mail list account
 

I'm getting this sense of deja vue here, is it groundhog day again?
grin.
I seem to recall a long discussion with Jamie on one of these lists how just doing the compare of selected whatever it is can be misleading, but it was a while ago now. I did wonder if windows in some way indicates success by some graphical change to the sighted though.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Isige" <gwynn@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 4:09 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text


Quentin:


Why would NVDA need to constantly know the contents of the clipboard? I
haven't been following this discussion, but NVDA has to know selected
text, yes? So all it needs to do is compare the selected text to the
clipboard after a copy operation. Otherwise, it doesn't need to care
about the clipboard at all.


On 2/4/2018 19:52, Gene wrote:
I'm saying that I know that JAWS and System access detected the
operation correctly. I've tested it when there was nothing on the
clipboard and I got no indication that anything had occurred. I don't
remember now if there was silence or some sort of message such as
nothing to copy. That wasn't the phrase, if one was used.
I also tested with System Access and again, I wasn't told that copying
or pasting had occurred when there was nothing to copy or paste.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 04, 2018 5:53 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

Can I just clarify what I said please - there is a difference between
detecting that a user has pressed control+c and assuming (perhaps even
by knowing we are in Word and there was text selected) that text has
been copied, and actually knowing that the contents of the clipboard
have changed, and how. If done intelligently, then yes the first way
may be right most of the time and for the majority of users that may
be accurate enough. If everything works, then yes, from a user's
perspective, it doesn't overly matter how the information was
ascertained, we just weren't comfortable reporting something that we
couldn't ascertain.

The other issue may be that ascertaining that information definitively
could come with a performance cost. NVDA would need to constantly
know the state of the clipboard in order to know, when the user
presses CONTROL+C, whether the contents of the clipboard have changed.

Again, I'm not saying it can't change, or even disagreeing with the
argument for change, just presenting the original thinking and how we
got to where we are now.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Gene <gsasner@...
<mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

I never had the JAWS copy and paste command not work except
perhaps very rarely when I had to restart the screen-reader to
cause it to work again. But that means nothing about the
function. At times, you have to restart programs because some
problem develops that is solved in that way.
Gene
----- Original Message ----
*From:* Chris Mullins <mailto:cjmullins29@...>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 04, 2018 5:02 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

I used Jaws for years on XP and W7 and the cut/copy/paste feature
never worked consistently. The clipspeak add-on at least tells
you the keystroke you have pressed even if it may or may not have
worked and is less verbose than switching on the speak command
keys feature of NVDA. I use clipspeak add-on and the only thing
that bugs me about it is that it says “Re-Do” when I use control+y
in MS Outlook and W10 Mail to display the folder list.

Cheers

Chris

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>] *On
Behalf Of *Gene
*Sent:* 4 February 2018 22:21
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

It is important to consider doing so. And as far as not being
able to detect this before, I don't know why. JAWS has done so at
least as far back as XP and probably much longer. System Access
does this as well and has done so for years.

This is an important feature and shouldn't be relegated to an add on.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

*Sent:*Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:53 PM

*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:*Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

The reason it isn't built in is precisely what you just said -
when it was first being looked at, we couldn't actually know
whether text had been cut, copied or pasted etc. All we could do
was detect that control+c had been pressed and know that is
GENERALLY used for copy. We didn't want to tell the user
something had been copied when it hadn't, so instead there is the
"Speak command keys" option (NVDA+4 or via the NVDA keyboard
preferences NVDA+control+k) which will read CONTROL+C in that
instance.

The SpeakClip add-on does read the command - cut, copy, paste,
select all etc. It does make an effort to report this
intelligently. I recall a conversation with someone recently who
said it is now more possible to accurately tell what has happened
(text has been cut, a file has been copied, etc). If that is the
case, then it potentially could be considered to be built in.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io <bglists@...
<mailto:bglists@...>> wrote:

Been here before. There is a fake clipboard announcement add on
but its not intelligent in that its really just reading the key
combinations. There was an intelligent one being developed but it
was slow and prone to malfunctions and creating memory errors in
Microsoft Word so I uninstalled it.
I have always said it should be designed in as a novice mode bit
of help, but at the time I think it was thought too hard to make
it take into account all the instances and get the indication correct.
This is one to bring up again on the add ons list I'd imagine.
Brian

bglists@... <mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@... <mailto:briang1@...>,
putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin" <kleeva5@...
<mailto:kleeva5@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 6:38 PM
Subject: [nvda] say copy selected text


How can I set NVDA to say copy selected text to the clip board and
other like commands when I copy, cut or paste!

E-mail is golden!!!
Kevin Lee






--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now
available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
<http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/>

www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
<http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
Twitter: @NVAccess




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: say copy selected text

Brian's Mail list account
 

Yes, I did wonder though many years ago Dolphin had this in its novice mode and it seemed to actually be reliable in what it said, but of course I never did actually do exhaustive tests.

Besides, in those days most screenreaders used display chain drivers and it may well be that it could be detected by some subtle change in the screen content.
The clipspeak is very slow and buggy, sadly though in most cases it does work. Fails in Goldwave and creates spurious memory errors in some versions of word.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text


The reason it isn't built in is precisely what you just said - when it was
first being looked at, we couldn't actually know whether text had been cut,
copied or pasted etc. All we could do was detect that control+c had been
pressed and know that is GENERALLY used for copy. We didn't want to tell
the user something had been copied when it hadn't, so instead there is the
"Speak command keys" option (NVDA+4 or via the NVDA keyboard preferences
NVDA+control+k) which will read CONTROL+C in that instance.

The SpeakClip add-on does read the command - cut, copy, paste, select all
etc. It does make an effort to report this intelligently. I recall a
conversation with someone recently who said it is now more possible to
accurately tell what has happened (text has been cut, a file has been
copied, etc). If that is the case, then it potentially could be considered
to be built in.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <
bglists@...> wrote:

Been here before. There is a fake clipboard announcement add on but its
not intelligent in that its really just reading the key combinations. There
was an intelligent one being developed but it was slow and prone to
malfunctions and creating memory errors in Microsoft Word so I uninstalled
it.
I have always said it should be designed in as a novice mode bit of help,
but at the time I think it was thought too hard to make it take into
account all the instances and get the indication correct.
This is one to bring up again on the add ons list I'd imagine.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin" <kleeva5@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 6:38 PM
Subject: [nvda] say copy selected text


How can I set NVDA to say copy selected text to the clip board and other
like commands when I copy, cut or paste!

E-mail is golden!!!
Kevin Lee






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: say copy selected text

John Isige
 

Quentin:


Why would NVDA need to constantly know the contents of the clipboard? I
haven't been following this discussion, but NVDA has to know selected
text, yes? So all it needs to do is compare the selected text to the
clipboard after a copy operation. Otherwise, it doesn't need to care
about the clipboard at all.

On 2/4/2018 19:52, Gene wrote:
I'm saying that I know that JAWS and System access detected the
operation correctly.  I've tested it when there was nothing on the
clipboard and I got no indication that anything had occurred.  I don't
remember now if there was silence or some sort of message such as
nothing to copy.  That wasn't the phrase, if one was used.
I also tested with System Access and again, I wasn't told that copying
or pasting had occurred when there was nothing to copy or paste.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 04, 2018 5:53 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

Can I just clarify what I said please - there is a difference between
detecting that a user has pressed control+c and assuming (perhaps even
by knowing we are in Word and there was text selected) that text has
been copied, and actually knowing that the contents of the clipboard
have changed, and how.  If done intelligently, then yes the first way
may be right most of the time and for the majority of users that may
be accurate enough.  If everything works, then yes, from a user's
perspective, it doesn't overly matter how the information was
ascertained, we just weren't comfortable reporting something that we
couldn't ascertain.

The other issue may be that ascertaining that information definitively
could come with a performance cost.  NVDA would need to constantly
know the state of the clipboard in order to know, when the user
presses CONTROL+C, whether the contents of the clipboard have changed.

Again, I'm not saying it can't change, or even disagreeing with the
argument for change, just presenting the original thinking and how we
got to where we are now.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Gene <gsasner@...
<mailto:gsasner@...>> wrote:

I never had the JAWS copy and paste command not work except
perhaps very rarely when I had to restart the screen-reader to
cause it to work again.  But that means nothing about the
function.  At times, you have to restart programs because some
problem develops that is solved in that way.
Gene
----- Original Message ----
*From:* Chris Mullins <mailto:cjmullins29@...>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 04, 2018 5:02 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

I used Jaws for years on XP and W7 and the cut/copy/paste  feature
never worked consistently.  The clipspeak add-on at least tells
you the keystroke you have pressed even if it may or may not have
worked and is less verbose than switching on the speak command
keys feature of NVDA.  I use clipspeak add-on and the only thing
that bugs me about it is that it says “Re-Do” when I use control+y
in MS Outlook and W10 Mail to display the folder list.

Cheers

Chris

*From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>] *On
Behalf Of *Gene
*Sent:* 4 February 2018 22:21
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

It is important to consider doing so.  And as far as not being
able to detect this before, I don't know why. JAWS has done so at
least as far back as XP and probably much longer.  System Access
does this as well and has done so for years.

This is an important feature and shouldn't be relegated to an add on.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

*From:* Quentin Christensen <mailto:quentin@...>

*Sent:*Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:53 PM

*To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

*Subject:*Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

The reason it isn't built in is precisely what you just said -
when it was first being looked at, we couldn't actually know
whether text had been cut, copied or pasted etc.  All we could do
was detect that control+c had been pressed and know that is
GENERALLY used for copy.  We didn't want to tell the user
something had been copied when it hadn't, so instead there is the
"Speak command keys" option (NVDA+4 or via the NVDA keyboard
preferences NVDA+control+k) which will read CONTROL+C in that
instance.

The SpeakClip add-on does read the command - cut, copy, paste,
select all etc.  It does make an effort to report this
intelligently.  I recall a conversation with someone recently who
said it is now more possible to accurately tell what has happened
(text has been cut, a file has been copied, etc).  If that is the
case, then it potentially could be considered to be built in.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io <bglists@...
<mailto:bglists@...>> wrote:

Been here before. There is a fake clipboard announcement add on
but its not intelligent in that its really just reading the key
combinations. There was an intelligent one being developed but it
was slow and prone to malfunctions and creating memory errors in
Microsoft Word so I uninstalled it.
I have always said it should be designed in as a novice mode bit
of help, but at the time I think it was thought too hard to make
it take into account all the instances and get the indication correct.
This is one to bring up again on the add ons list I'd imagine.
Brian

bglists@... <mailto:bglists@...>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@... <mailto:briang1@...>,
putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin" <kleeva5@...
<mailto:kleeva5@...>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 6:38 PM
Subject: [nvda] say copy selected text


How can I set NVDA to say copy selected text to the clip board and
other like commands when I copy, cut or paste!

E-mail is golden!!!
Kevin Lee






--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now
available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
<http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/>

www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
<http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
Twitter: @NVAccess




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: "window invisible" and "no next" please help with object nav

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Rusty,

Do you have "Focus moves navigator object" enabled?  It is enabled by default but can be turned off either from the Review cursor preferences, or by pressing NVDA+7 (on the number row).  When turned off, the navigator object will remain where it currently is until moved manually, or until this setting is turned on again and the focus moved.

Regards

Quentin.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:28 PM, Rusty Perez <rustys.lists@...> wrote:
Hey folks,
I've been using a screen reader for a long time, but object nav is
relatively new to me.

I really need object nav  in Reaper the digital audio workstation, but
it doesn't matter what program I'm in, NVDA reports "window invisible"
when I press nvda-numpad5 and I get "no next" or "no previous" when
pressing nvda and numpad 4 or 6. Numpad 2 and 8 give me "no containing
objects" and "no objects inside"


I'm sure this is user error, but I can't figure it out.

Please help.

Rusty
<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
        <tr>
        <td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail"
target="_blank"><img
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png"
alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
/></a></td>
                <td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e;
font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail"
target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avg.com</a>
                </td>
        </tr>
</table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
height="1"></a></div>






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


"window invisible" and "no next" please help with object nav

Rusty Perez
 

Hey folks,
I've been using a screen reader for a long time, but object nav is
relatively new to me.

I really need object nav in Reaper the digital audio workstation, but
it doesn't matter what program I'm in, NVDA reports "window invisible"
when I press nvda-numpad5 and I get "no next" or "no previous" when
pressing nvda and numpad 4 or 6. Numpad 2 and 8 give me "no containing
objects" and "no objects inside"


I'm sure this is user error, but I can't figure it out.

Please help.

Rusty
<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
<tr>
<td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail"
target="_blank"><img
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png"
alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
/></a></td>
<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e;
font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail"
target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avg.com</a>
</td>
</tr>
</table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
height="1"></a></div>


Re: say copy selected text

Gene
 

I'm saying that I know that JAWS and System access detected the operation correctly.  I've tested it when there was nothing on the clipboard and I got no indication that anything had occurred.  I don't remember now if there was silence or some sort of message such as nothing to copy.  That wasn't the phrase, if one was used. 
 
I also tested with System Access and again, I wasn't told that copying or pasting had occurred when there was nothing to copy or paste.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

Can I just clarify what I said please - there is a difference between detecting that a user has pressed control+c and assuming (perhaps even by knowing we are in Word and there was text selected) that text has been copied, and actually knowing that the contents of the clipboard have changed, and how.  If done intelligently, then yes the first way may be right most of the time and for the majority of users that may be accurate enough.  If everything works, then yes, from a user's perspective, it doesn't overly matter how the information was ascertained, we just weren't comfortable reporting something that we couldn't ascertain.

The other issue may be that ascertaining that information definitively could come with a performance cost.  NVDA would need to constantly know the state of the clipboard in order to know, when the user presses CONTROL+C, whether the contents of the clipboard have changed.

Again, I'm not saying it can't change, or even disagreeing with the argument for change, just presenting the original thinking and how we got to where we are now.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I never had the JAWS copy and paste command not work except perhaps very rarely when I had to restart the screen-reader to cause it to work again.  But that means nothing about the function.  At times, you have to restart programs because some problem develops that is solved in that way. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

I used Jaws for years on XP and W7 and the cut/copy/paste  feature never worked consistently.  The clipspeak add-on at least tells you the keystroke you have pressed even if it may or may not have worked and is less verbose than switching on the speak command keys feature of NVDA.  I use clipspeak add-on and the only thing that bugs me about it is that it says “Re-Do” when I use control+y in MS Outlook and W10 Mail to display the folder list.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 4 February 2018 22:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

 

It is important to consider doing so.  And as far as not being able to detect this before, I don't know why.  JAWS has done so at least as far back as XP and probably much longer.  System Access does this as well and has done so for years. 

 

This is an important feature and shouldn't be relegated to an add on.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:53 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

 

The reason it isn't built in is precisely what you just said - when it was first being looked at, we couldn't actually know whether text had been cut, copied or pasted etc.  All we could do was detect that control+c had been pressed and know that is GENERALLY used for copy.  We didn't want to tell the user something had been copied when it hadn't, so instead there is the "Speak command keys" option (NVDA+4 or via the NVDA keyboard preferences NVDA+control+k) which will read CONTROL+C in that instance.

 

The SpeakClip add-on does read the command - cut, copy, paste, select all etc.  It does make an effort to report this intelligently.  I recall a conversation with someone recently who said it is now more possible to accurately tell what has happened (text has been cut, a file has been copied, etc).  If that is the case, then it potentially could be considered to be built in.

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Been here before. There is a fake clipboard announcement add on but its not intelligent in that its really just reading the key combinations. There was an intelligent one being developed but it was slow and prone to malfunctions and creating memory errors in Microsoft Word so I uninstalled it.
I have always said it should be designed in as a novice mode bit of help, but at the time I think it was thought too hard to make it take into account all the instances and get the indication correct.
This is one to bring up again on the add ons list I'd imagine.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin" <kleeva5@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 6:38 PM
Subject: [nvda] say copy selected text


How can I set NVDA to say copy selected text to the clip board and other like commands when I copy, cut or paste!

E-mail is golden!!!
Kevin Lee






 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: say copy selected text

Quentin Christensen
 

Can I just clarify what I said please - there is a difference between detecting that a user has pressed control+c and assuming (perhaps even by knowing we are in Word and there was text selected) that text has been copied, and actually knowing that the contents of the clipboard have changed, and how.  If done intelligently, then yes the first way may be right most of the time and for the majority of users that may be accurate enough.  If everything works, then yes, from a user's perspective, it doesn't overly matter how the information was ascertained, we just weren't comfortable reporting something that we couldn't ascertain.

The other issue may be that ascertaining that information definitively could come with a performance cost.  NVDA would need to constantly know the state of the clipboard in order to know, when the user presses CONTROL+C, whether the contents of the clipboard have changed.

Again, I'm not saying it can't change, or even disagreeing with the argument for change, just presenting the original thinking and how we got to where we are now.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I never had the JAWS copy and paste command not work except perhaps very rarely when I had to restart the screen-reader to cause it to work again.  But that means nothing about the function.  At times, you have to restart programs because some problem develops that is solved in that way. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

I used Jaws for years on XP and W7 and the cut/copy/paste  feature never worked consistently.  The clipspeak add-on at least tells you the keystroke you have pressed even if it may or may not have worked and is less verbose than switching on the speak command keys feature of NVDA.  I use clipspeak add-on and the only thing that bugs me about it is that it says “Re-Do” when I use control+y in MS Outlook and W10 Mail to display the folder list.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 4 February 2018 22:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

 

It is important to consider doing so.  And as far as not being able to detect this before, I don't know why.  JAWS has done so at least as far back as XP and probably much longer.  System Access does this as well and has done so for years. 

 

This is an important feature and shouldn't be relegated to an add on.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:53 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

 

The reason it isn't built in is precisely what you just said - when it was first being looked at, we couldn't actually know whether text had been cut, copied or pasted etc.  All we could do was detect that control+c had been pressed and know that is GENERALLY used for copy.  We didn't want to tell the user something had been copied when it hadn't, so instead there is the "Speak command keys" option (NVDA+4 or via the NVDA keyboard preferences NVDA+control+k) which will read CONTROL+C in that instance.

 

The SpeakClip add-on does read the command - cut, copy, paste, select all etc.  It does make an effort to report this intelligently.  I recall a conversation with someone recently who said it is now more possible to accurately tell what has happened (text has been cut, a file has been copied, etc).  If that is the case, then it potentially could be considered to be built in.

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

Been here before. There is a fake clipboard announcement add on but its not intelligent in that its really just reading the key combinations. There was an intelligent one being developed but it was slow and prone to malfunctions and creating memory errors in Microsoft Word so I uninstalled it.
I have always said it should be designed in as a novice mode bit of help, but at the time I think it was thought too hard to make it take into account all the instances and get the indication correct.
This is one to bring up again on the add ons list I'd imagine.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin" <kleeva5@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 6:38 PM
Subject: [nvda] say copy selected text


How can I set NVDA to say copy selected text to the clip board and other like commands when I copy, cut or paste!

E-mail is golden!!!
Kevin Lee






 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Substitute punctuation marks with sounds

Quentin Christensen
 

Does anyone know if an issue has been created for this?  I just had a look at https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues and can't see one, so wanted to check.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:18 AM, Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@...> wrote:
I like the idea too, along with voice changes or sounds to denote different attributes, such as style changes in word and email, or HTML elements on the web.
Devin Prater
Assistive Technology Instructor

, Microsoft Outlook, Excel, Word, and Powerpoint instructor certified by World Services for the Blind

On Feb 4, 2018, at 2:21 PM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

This actually reminds me of JFW in that an attachment was detected and for me I had a sliding tone play so I could know what was going on very quickly. I like the idea actually.

On Feb 4, 2018, at 3:12 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

You are assuming a sound would be wanted for every punctuation sign.  And at least in Engglish and many languages, there aren't that many.  Period, question mark, colon, semicolon quotation marks and you might want a sound for ellipsis.  You could have more sounds as well.  You could have sounds in the pronunciation dictionary so you can assign sounds for whatever you want.  The user could even put sound files in the program if he/she doesn't like what is provided.  Now let's see what kinds of sounds we might have.  Bell, whistle, door close, door open, chime, and all sorts of variations such as high pitch bell, low pitch bell, car dor, a door such as in a house, and other people may come up with all sorts of other examples.  The world is full of distinctive sounds.  And JAWS has had such a feature for probably over a dedcade so this is not at all a novel idea.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:54 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Substitute punctuation marks with sounds

No maybe not but this would need a lot of sounds and I question how easy it 
might be to come up with enough of them to be easy to recognise.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Substitute punctuation marks with sounds


The user would select the sound for the specific punctuation.  There 
wouldn't be preassigned sounds.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 5:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Substitute punctuation marks with sounds


I'm sure you were aware that there was a now dead comedian who made a lot of
money with his monologues where he substituted sounds for Punctuation!
Victor Borge'

Now my one problem with having a mode like this is, given the number of
different marks and their meaning in different circumstances in different
languages, it could need one heck of a  lot of individual sounds to cover
them all. I do know what you are getting at different sorts of brackets and
colons etc, are main candidates, with underscores being also useful.

Maybe this is add on territory ie a programmers version as most of us prefer
not to hear these greater thans etc all over the place, but obviously such
things are important in programming as are brackets and indents etc.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Malykh" <anton.malykh@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 10:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] Substitute punctuation marks with sounds


> Hello all,
>
> Is there a way to substitute punctuation marks with custom sounds? I am a
> developer and often times I have to listen to tongue twisters of
> punctuation marks, like "left bracket right brace left paren ..." I wish
> to replace all these parens and brackets with sounds. Is there a way to do
> so in NVDA?
>
> Thanks
> Tony
>
>
>
>











--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: say copy selected text

Gene
 

I never had the JAWS copy and paste command not work except perhaps very rarely when I had to restart the screen-reader to cause it to work again.  But that means nothing about the function.  At times, you have to restart programs because some problem develops that is solved in that way. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message ----
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

I used Jaws for years on XP and W7 and the cut/copy/paste  feature never worked consistently.  The clipspeak add-on at least tells you the keystroke you have pressed even if it may or may not have worked and is less verbose than switching on the speak command keys feature of NVDA.  I use clipspeak add-on and the only thing that bugs me about it is that it says “Re-Do” when I use control+y in MS Outlook and W10 Mail to display the folder list.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 4 February 2018 22:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

 

It is important to consider doing so.  And as far as not being able to detect this before, I don't know why.  JAWS has done so at least as far back as XP and probably much longer.  System Access does this as well and has done so for years. 

 

This is an important feature and shouldn't be relegated to an add on.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:53 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

 

The reason it isn't built in is precisely what you just said - when it was first being looked at, we couldn't actually know whether text had been cut, copied or pasted etc.  All we could do was detect that control+c had been pressed and know that is GENERALLY used for copy.  We didn't want to tell the user something had been copied when it hadn't, so instead there is the "Speak command keys" option (NVDA+4 or via the NVDA keyboard preferences NVDA+control+k) which will read CONTROL+C in that instance.

 

The SpeakClip add-on does read the command - cut, copy, paste, select all etc.  It does make an effort to report this intelligently.  I recall a conversation with someone recently who said it is now more possible to accurately tell what has happened (text has been cut, a file has been copied, etc).  If that is the case, then it potentially could be considered to be built in.

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

Been here before. There is a fake clipboard announcement add on but its not intelligent in that its really just reading the key combinations. There was an intelligent one being developed but it was slow and prone to malfunctions and creating memory errors in Microsoft Word so I uninstalled it.
I have always said it should be designed in as a novice mode bit of help, but at the time I think it was thought too hard to make it take into account all the instances and get the indication correct.
This is one to bring up again on the add ons list I'd imagine.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin" <kleeva5@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 6:38 PM
Subject: [nvda] say copy selected text


How can I set NVDA to say copy selected text to the clip board and other like commands when I copy, cut or paste!

E-mail is golden!!!
Kevin Lee






 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: say copy selected text

Chris Mullins
 

I used Jaws for years on XP and W7 and the cut/copy/paste  feature never worked consistently.  The clipspeak add-on at least tells you the keystroke you have pressed even if it may or may not have worked and is less verbose than switching on the speak command keys feature of NVDA.  I use clipspeak add-on and the only thing that bugs me about it is that it says “Re-Do” when I use control+y in MS Outlook and W10 Mail to display the folder list.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 4 February 2018 22:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

 

It is important to consider doing so.  And as far as not being able to detect this before, I don't know why.  JAWS has done so at least as far back as XP and probably much longer.  System Access does this as well and has done so for years. 

 

This is an important feature and shouldn't be relegated to an add on.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:53 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

 

The reason it isn't built in is precisely what you just said - when it was first being looked at, we couldn't actually know whether text had been cut, copied or pasted etc.  All we could do was detect that control+c had been pressed and know that is GENERALLY used for copy.  We didn't want to tell the user something had been copied when it hadn't, so instead there is the "Speak command keys" option (NVDA+4 or via the NVDA keyboard preferences NVDA+control+k) which will read CONTROL+C in that instance.

 

The SpeakClip add-on does read the command - cut, copy, paste, select all etc.  It does make an effort to report this intelligently.  I recall a conversation with someone recently who said it is now more possible to accurately tell what has happened (text has been cut, a file has been copied, etc).  If that is the case, then it potentially could be considered to be built in.

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

Been here before. There is a fake clipboard announcement add on but its not intelligent in that its really just reading the key combinations. There was an intelligent one being developed but it was slow and prone to malfunctions and creating memory errors in Microsoft Word so I uninstalled it.
I have always said it should be designed in as a novice mode bit of help, but at the time I think it was thought too hard to make it take into account all the instances and get the indication correct.
This is one to bring up again on the add ons list I'd imagine.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin" <kleeva5@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 6:38 PM
Subject: [nvda] say copy selected text


How can I set NVDA to say copy selected text to the clip board and other like commands when I copy, cut or paste!

E-mail is golden!!!
Kevin Lee






 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: say copy selected text

Gene
 

It is important to consider doing so.  And as far as not being able to detect this before, I don't know why.  JAWS has done so at least as far back as XP and probably much longer.  System Access does this as well and has done so for years. 
 
This is an important feature and shouldn't be relegated to an add on.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] say copy selected text

The reason it isn't built in is precisely what you just said - when it was first being looked at, we couldn't actually know whether text had been cut, copied or pasted etc.  All we could do was detect that control+c had been pressed and know that is GENERALLY used for copy.  We didn't want to tell the user something had been copied when it hadn't, so instead there is the "Speak command keys" option (NVDA+4 or via the NVDA keyboard preferences NVDA+control+k) which will read CONTROL+C in that instance.

The SpeakClip add-on does read the command - cut, copy, paste, select all etc.  It does make an effort to report this intelligently.  I recall a conversation with someone recently who said it is now more possible to accurately tell what has happened (text has been cut, a file has been copied, etc).  If that is the case, then it potentially could be considered to be built in.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:
Been here before. There is a fake clipboard announcement add on but its not intelligent in that its really just reading the key combinations. There was an intelligent one being developed but it was slow and prone to malfunctions and creating memory errors in Microsoft Word so I uninstalled it.
I have always said it should be designed in as a novice mode bit of help, but at the time I think it was thought too hard to make it take into account all the instances and get the indication correct.
This is one to bring up again on the add ons list I'd imagine.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin" <kleeva5@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 6:38 PM
Subject: [nvda] say copy selected text


How can I set NVDA to say copy selected text to the clip board and other like commands when I copy, cut or paste!

E-mail is golden!!!
Kevin Lee








--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Substitute punctuation marks with sounds

Devin Prater
 

I like the idea too, along with voice changes or sounds to denote different attributes, such as style changes in word and email, or HTML elements on the web.
Devin Prater
Assistive Technology Instructor

, Microsoft Outlook, Excel, Word, and Powerpoint instructor certified by World Services for the Blind

On Feb 4, 2018, at 2:21 PM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

This actually reminds me of JFW in that an attachment was detected and for me I had a sliding tone play so I could know what was going on very quickly. I like the idea actually.

On Feb 4, 2018, at 3:12 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

You are assuming a sound would be wanted for every punctuation sign.  And at least in Engglish and many languages, there aren't that many.  Period, question mark, colon, semicolon quotation marks and you might want a sound for ellipsis.  You could have more sounds as well.  You could have sounds in the pronunciation dictionary so you can assign sounds for whatever you want.  The user could even put sound files in the program if he/she doesn't like what is provided.  Now let's see what kinds of sounds we might have.  Bell, whistle, door close, door open, chime, and all sorts of variations such as high pitch bell, low pitch bell, car dor, a door such as in a house, and other people may come up with all sorts of other examples.  The world is full of distinctive sounds.  And JAWS has had such a feature for probably over a dedcade so this is not at all a novel idea.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:54 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Substitute punctuation marks with sounds

No maybe not but this would need a lot of sounds and I question how easy it 
might be to come up with enough of them to be easy to recognise.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Substitute punctuation marks with sounds


The user would select the sound for the specific punctuation.  There 
wouldn't be preassigned sounds.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 5:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Substitute punctuation marks with sounds


I'm sure you were aware that there was a now dead comedian who made a lot of
money with his monologues where he substituted sounds for Punctuation!
Victor Borge'

Now my one problem with having a mode like this is, given the number of
different marks and their meaning in different circumstances in different
languages, it could need one heck of a  lot of individual sounds to cover
them all. I do know what you are getting at different sorts of brackets and
colons etc, are main candidates, with underscores being also useful.

Maybe this is add on territory ie a programmers version as most of us prefer
not to hear these greater thans etc all over the place, but obviously such
things are important in programming as are brackets and indents etc.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Malykh" <anton.malykh@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 10:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] Substitute punctuation marks with sounds


> Hello all,
>
> Is there a way to substitute punctuation marks with custom sounds? I am a
> developer and often times I have to listen to tongue twisters of
> punctuation marks, like "left bracket right brace left paren ..." I wish
> to replace all these parens and brackets with sounds. Is there a way to do
> so in NVDA?
>
> Thanks
> Tony
>
>
>
>









Re: Special characters in NVDA

Gene
 

If you have JAWS, it has a feature that displays a lot of symbols.  As I recall, you find the one you want in the list and press enter to place the symbol in a document you are editing.  You can open a blank document, then open the list in JAWS and put whatever symbols you want in the document, then save it.  You would put one to a line so you can quickly move to the symbol you want and then be easily able to select and copy it to the clipboard, then go back to the document you are working on and paste it in.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Special characters in NVDA

Yes, that’s what I figured. I only note that it won’t work for everyone because some seem to balk at the notion of typing several keystrokes to get a single character result. Still quicker than pasting from a file or character map imo but, it’s of course up to the user. In any case, you still have to find the right codes, before you can remember them. J

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: February 4, 2018 2:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Special characters in NVDA

 

That will work with NVDA.  I thought the numlock was off when this was done but when the numlock is on, the Numpad works just as it does When NVDA isn't running.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: JM Casey

Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 1:33 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Special characters in NVDA

 

I haven’t yet tried this with nVDA running, but the quickest way for me has always been to turn the numlock on, and type the alt-number combination, then turn the numlock off again. This won’t work for everyone. While I admit I can’t remember all the important codes, most of the ones I use are accents you’d find in french, and I do remember those. Windows has a feature called Character Map, which you can use to look up character codes, or paste the characters directly into your document. I haven’t used it since XP, but I just looked, and note that it is still here in Windows 10. However, the interface seems to have changed somewhat. Still, you can search for things if you select the advanced view. Play around with it if you like. You’ll probably have to use object navigation in NVDA.

 

The good news is that once you know the code, you don’t have to muck around with pasting anything. Make a list of the ones you use often, rather as Gene suggested, and before long you’ll remember them and type them quickly and efficiently.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: February 4, 2018 11:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Special characters in NVDA

 

NVDA has no such dialog.  Do you still have JAWS on your machine?  You could create your own list using Notepad and then cut and paste them into documents.  Or you can create these characters using the numpad, but I've almost never done this.  Since NVDA uses the Numpad, I'm not sure if you can do this unless you use the bypass command.  Others may comment.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Ann Byrne

Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 9:49 AM

Subject: [nvda] Special characters in NVDA

 

How do I find special characters in NVDA, such as the accented e in résumé?

Thanks,



Re: Special characters in NVDA

Jason White
 

This documentation (with Italian as the example language) may be useful. I found it with a quick Web search, so I haven’t tried it.

https://www.duolingo.com/comment/15264140/How-To-Type-Accented-Characters-On-An-English-Keyboard-Windows-10-Tutorial

 

Microsoft Office has keystrokes that allow you to type accented letters:

https://support.office.com/en-us/article/keyboard-shortcuts-for-international-characters-108fa0c1-fb8e-4aae-9db1-d60407d13c35

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 3:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Special characters in NVDA

 

Yes, that’s what I figured. I only note that it won’t work for everyone because some seem to balk at the notion of typing several keystrokes to get a single character result. Still quicker than pasting from a file or character map imo but, it’s of course up to the user. In any case, you still have to find the right codes, before you can remember them. J

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: February 4, 2018 2:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Special characters in NVDA

 

That will work with NVDA.  I thought the numlock was off when this was done but when the numlock is on, the Numpad works just as it does When NVDA isn't running.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: JM Casey

Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 1:33 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Special characters in NVDA

 

I haven’t yet tried this with nVDA running, but the quickest way for me has always been to turn the numlock on, and type the alt-number combination, then turn the numlock off again. This won’t work for everyone. While I admit I can’t remember all the important codes, most of the ones I use are accents you’d find in french, and I do remember those. Windows has a feature called Character Map, which you can use to look up character codes, or paste the characters directly into your document. I haven’t used it since XP, but I just looked, and note that it is still here in Windows 10. However, the interface seems to have changed somewhat. Still, you can search for things if you select the advanced view. Play around with it if you like. You’ll probably have to use object navigation in NVDA.

 

The good news is that once you know the code, you don’t have to muck around with pasting anything. Make a list of the ones you use often, rather as Gene suggested, and before long you’ll remember them and type them quickly and efficiently.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: February 4, 2018 11:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Special characters in NVDA

 

NVDA has no such dialog.  Do you still have JAWS on your machine?  You could create your own list using Notepad and then cut and paste them into documents.  Or you can create these characters using the numpad, but I've almost never done this.  Since NVDA uses the Numpad, I'm not sure if you can do this unless you use the bypass command.  Others may comment.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Ann Byrne

Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 9:49 AM

Subject: [nvda] Special characters in NVDA

 

How do I find special characters in NVDA, such as the accented e in résumé?

Thanks,


Re: say copy selected text

Quentin Christensen
 

The reason it isn't built in is precisely what you just said - when it was first being looked at, we couldn't actually know whether text had been cut, copied or pasted etc.  All we could do was detect that control+c had been pressed and know that is GENERALLY used for copy.  We didn't want to tell the user something had been copied when it hadn't, so instead there is the "Speak command keys" option (NVDA+4 or via the NVDA keyboard preferences NVDA+control+k) which will read CONTROL+C in that instance.

The SpeakClip add-on does read the command - cut, copy, paste, select all etc.  It does make an effort to report this intelligently.  I recall a conversation with someone recently who said it is now more possible to accurately tell what has happened (text has been cut, a file has been copied, etc).  If that is the case, then it potentially could be considered to be built in.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:
Been here before. There is a fake clipboard announcement add on but its not intelligent in that its really just reading the key combinations. There was an intelligent one being developed but it was slow and prone to malfunctions and creating memory errors in Microsoft Word so I uninstalled it.
I have always said it should be designed in as a novice mode bit of help, but at the time I think it was thought too hard to make it take into account all the instances and get the indication correct.
This is one to bring up again on the add ons list I'd imagine.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin" <kleeva5@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 6:38 PM
Subject: [nvda] say copy selected text


How can I set NVDA to say copy selected text to the clip board and other like commands when I copy, cut or paste!

E-mail is golden!!!
Kevin Lee








--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Substitute punctuation marks with sounds

Sarah k Alawami
 

This actually reminds me of JFW in that an attachment was detected and for me I had a sliding tone play so I could know what was going on very quickly. I like the idea actually.

On Feb 4, 2018, at 3:12 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

You are assuming a sound would be wanted for every punctuation sign.  And at least in Engglish and many languages, there aren't that many.  Period, question mark, colon, semicolon quotation marks and you might want a sound for ellipsis.  You could have more sounds as well.  You could have sounds in the pronunciation dictionary so you can assign sounds for whatever you want.  The user could even put sound files in the program if he/she doesn't like what is provided.  Now let's see what kinds of sounds we might have.  Bell, whistle, door close, door open, chime, and all sorts of variations such as high pitch bell, low pitch bell, car dor, a door such as in a house, and other people may come up with all sorts of other examples.  The world is full of distinctive sounds.  And JAWS has had such a feature for probably over a dedcade so this is not at all a novel idea.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:54 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Substitute punctuation marks with sounds

No maybe not but this would need a lot of sounds and I question how easy it 
might be to come up with enough of them to be easy to recognise.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Substitute punctuation marks with sounds


The user would select the sound for the specific punctuation.  There 
wouldn't be preassigned sounds.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 5:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Substitute punctuation marks with sounds


I'm sure you were aware that there was a now dead comedian who made a lot of
money with his monologues where he substituted sounds for Punctuation!
Victor Borge'

Now my one problem with having a mode like this is, given the number of
different marks and their meaning in different circumstances in different
languages, it could need one heck of a  lot of individual sounds to cover
them all. I do know what you are getting at different sorts of brackets and
colons etc, are main candidates, with underscores being also useful.

Maybe this is add on territory ie a programmers version as most of us prefer
not to hear these greater thans etc all over the place, but obviously such
things are important in programming as are brackets and indents etc.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Malykh" <anton.malykh@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 10:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] Substitute punctuation marks with sounds


> Hello all,
>
> Is there a way to substitute punctuation marks with custom sounds? I am a
> developer and often times I have to listen to tongue twisters of
> punctuation marks, like "left bracket right brace left paren ..." I wish
> to replace all these parens and brackets with sounds. Is there a way to do
> so in NVDA?
>
> Thanks
> Tony
>
>
>
>








Re: Special characters in NVDA

JM Casey <crystallogic@...>
 

Yes, that’s what I figured. I only note that it won’t work for everyone because some seem to balk at the notion of typing several keystrokes to get a single character result. Still quicker than pasting from a file or character map imo but, it’s of course up to the user. In any case, you still have to find the right codes, before you can remember them. J

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: February 4, 2018 2:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Special characters in NVDA

 

That will work with NVDA.  I thought the numlock was off when this was done but when the numlock is on, the Numpad works just as it does When NVDA isn't running.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: JM Casey

Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 1:33 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Special characters in NVDA

 

I haven’t yet tried this with nVDA running, but the quickest way for me has always been to turn the numlock on, and type the alt-number combination, then turn the numlock off again. This won’t work for everyone. While I admit I can’t remember all the important codes, most of the ones I use are accents you’d find in french, and I do remember those. Windows has a feature called Character Map, which you can use to look up character codes, or paste the characters directly into your document. I haven’t used it since XP, but I just looked, and note that it is still here in Windows 10. However, the interface seems to have changed somewhat. Still, you can search for things if you select the advanced view. Play around with it if you like. You’ll probably have to use object navigation in NVDA.

 

The good news is that once you know the code, you don’t have to muck around with pasting anything. Make a list of the ones you use often, rather as Gene suggested, and before long you’ll remember them and type them quickly and efficiently.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: February 4, 2018 11:23 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Special characters in NVDA

 

NVDA has no such dialog.  Do you still have JAWS on your machine?  You could create your own list using Notepad and then cut and paste them into documents.  Or you can create these characters using the numpad, but I've almost never done this.  Since NVDA uses the Numpad, I'm not sure if you can do this unless you use the bypass command.  Others may comment.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Ann Byrne

Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 9:49 AM

Subject: [nvda] Special characters in NVDA

 

How do I find special characters in NVDA, such as the accented e in résumé?

Thanks,



Re: odd and random out of character announcements

 

Which is why unless I need them I kill all running or pinned tasks.

I know this may be stupid but for me default tasks in the bar are basically spam I never put them there so I kill them.

One other thing I do especially with a laptop is to turn off mouse tracking because if you don't it causes issues not just touch pads, sometimes nvda will randomly speak things and this was the cause for me.

I do use it on my desktops a bunch but on laptop I don't unless I need it for something.

On 4/02/2018 10:03 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
That sounds like the running tasks pinned to some part of windows being refreshed and getting focus for a moment to me.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig" <electronno@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] odd and random out of character announcements


Further announcements such as:



When alt tabbing I get a mention like close task switching and its gone when
releasing the key combo..



Also when I was up arrowing in file exploer got a firefox open menu
announcement. But I don't see a list. Do have Firefox running with two
websites  .e.g Facebook and Sendspace.



Also whilst writing this email got announcement

Side by side toolbar, narvigation menu..



Thanks

Craig.





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Craig
Sent: Sunday, 4 February 2018 11:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] odd and random out of character announcements



Hi.



Using win10pro 1709 Build 16299.192 and NVDA version 2017.4





When I arrow up or down in outlook 2016 messages at random I hear things
like minimise the window or  alt something to do something.. As if a stretch
out menu like when you press the alt key and get the menu restore, minimise,
maximise etc.. Also when I got to the top of my messages I hear desktop.



When typing in this email I keep hearing at odd time forms region,  and
desktop, and clear tabs or something like that.



I reloaded nvda to no avail. Maximised and restored windows to no avail.



However I noticed that this started today and not sure when I had upgraded
to build 16299.192 which may have a bearing but couldn't be certain.





Any help sa to resolve this would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks







Cheers Craig



Craig& his Guide dog Winnie





Far beyond the Shrouded hours of dawn

Through the mist Of daybreak I was borne

But the day was Clouded still by night

Leaving me in the land of no light





Title of song: Echoes In The Dark

Performed by: Uriah Heep - Songwriters: Hensley, Ken







66321 - 66340 of 100977