Date   

Re: outlook and NVDA

Steve Gomes <finnygomes@...>
 

That is what I am running 2018.1.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sam Taylor
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2018 16:27
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] outlook and NVDA

 

What version of NVDA are you running? This was fixed in NVDA 2018.1

Cheers

Sam

 

On 5/04/2018 06:55, Steve Gomes wrote:

I am using windows 7 and outlook 2010. When I get emails from fox news, I hit control D to delete and get that message that says the body of the message has been changed do you still want to delete it? I hit yes and often that will make outlook crash and lock up the machine for a few minutes. Or it will cause outlook to close and I have to reopen it. It works fine with jaws. What is going?


Re: outlook and NVDA

Sam Taylor
 

What version of NVDA are you running? This was fixed in NVDA 2018.1

Cheers

Sam


On 5/04/2018 06:55, Steve Gomes wrote:

I am using windows 7 and outlook 2010. When I get emails from fox news, I hit control D to delete and get that message that says the body of the message has been changed do you still want to delete it? I hit yes and often that will make outlook crash and lock up the machine for a few minutes. Or it will cause outlook to close and I have to reopen it. It works fine with jaws. What is going?


outlook and NVDA

Steve Gomes <finnygomes@...>
 

I am using windows 7 and outlook 2010. When I get emails from fox news, I hit control D to delete and get that message that says the body of the message has been changed do you still want to delete it? I hit yes and often that will make outlook crash and lock up the machine for a few minutes. Or it will cause outlook to close and I have to reopen it. It works fine with jaws. What is going?


Re: NVDA 2018.1 freezes when editing an Excel worksheet

Giles Turnbull
 

Hi Suzy,

I experience this too and, like you, Excel starts off fine and then will freeze up after finishing entering text into one of the cells. For me there is a kind-of workaround.

When I type into a cell and then nothing responds, I move away to another program, Mozilla for example, then go Alt Tab back to Excel and the sheet responds to key presses / typing again. That doesn't mean it won't freeze up again after entering the next cell data, requiring another Alt Tab move away from Excel and then back to Excel again.

I hve not been able to figure out what causes this, and why, once it has started responding properly again, it works fine for a few more entries and then ties up again. Sometimes it seems to occur when Excel auto-formats something like a date, but tonight my date inputs are all working fine.

I'll pay more attention when I do some more work (I've a couple of edits I need to make this evening and a couple more entries I need to add, so if any of those freeze Excel I'll take more notes).

I'm using Excel 2016 on Win10 and with NVDA 2018.1

Giles


Re: OCR?

Luis Carlos González Moráles
 

I'm afraid yes. Maybe you can get the OCR addon for sake of this.

john s wrote:

I'm running win 7.  Am I out of luck?

At 04:26 PM 4/4/2018, Luis Carlos Gonzáles Moráles, wrote:
Yes it has. Using the Windows 10 ocr engine, Press NVDA+r to doo this
action. To change the language, go to Preferences, >windows 10 ocr.
Best,
Habibi.
john s wrote:
Does NVDA have OCR?  I have a PDF that is an image and want to see
the
text.  Thanks.


                John





                John




Re: the quest to make Patreon consider accessibility

Sarah k Alawami
 

The post is up. I also did the period thing on twitter so everyone in the public timeline will see it.


It is also up on my facebook, well an excerpt is anyway, shared on my podcast page as well



On Apr 4, 2018, at 1:09 PM, Robert Kingett <kingettr@...> wrote:

I would say yeah. I'm debating on if we should use the platform @ email or Tal's email address? They have ignored all of my requests, by the way, and whoever is replying to my tweets is doing so in the most blah way possible. Saying this is something that the happiness team would be glad to look into... really? I would say, well, put the twitter response to me on your blog and my email to them. Mention they have ignored me or condescendingly replied to me. In fact, if anybody could share the above... that would be good. Tal is ignoring my phone calls, as well.



Re: OCR?

john s
 

I'm running win 7. Am I out of luck?

At 04:26 PM 4/4/2018, Luis Carlos Gonzáles Moráles, wrote:
Yes it has. Using the Windows 10 ocr engine, Press NVDA+r to doo this
action. To change the language, go to Preferences, >windows 10 ocr.
Best,
Habibi.
john s wrote:
Does NVDA have OCR? I have a PDF that is an image and want to see the
text. Thanks.


               John





John


Re: Silencing the Checked Selected Checked Annoyance?

Chris Mullins
 

Hi
You need to set upt the File explorer display to your liking. First of all, press windows+e to open File Explorer.
Next, press alt+v followed by the letter l. This will open a Layout dialog where you choose the layout for how files and folder items are displayed when you use File explorer. The choices are Tiles, Content, large icons, medium icons, small icons, extra large icons, list and details. As a totally blind person, I find 'Details' the best for me as it shows file names, date last updated and type of file description entries in a list format but the choice is yours. Just press enter on the format you want. You can experiment by re-issuing the alt+v l command and going through the options to see which suits you best.

Once you have chosen a layout, you can now tweak other settings associated with the File Explorer display. Press alt+f then arrow down to 'Options Change settings for opening items, file and folder views, and search.' And press enter to open the 'Folder Options' dialog.

This is a multi-tab dialog and you will land in the General settings tab. In this tab you can set what happens when you press Windows+e, the choices being ThisPC (previously known as MyComputer) and Quick Access. Tab through the items in this dialog, they are fairly self-explanatory. When you reach the OK/Cancel/Apply buttons, activate apply to keep the dialog open.

Now press Control+tab to move into the View tab. The first item you come to in this tab is the option to apply this view to all folders of this type. Press the shortcut key to accept this option and accept the prompt. Now tab into the advanced options treeview then use the up/down arrows to move through the list. Some of the options I have set are:

display the full path in the title bar - On
Hide extensions for known filetypes - Off
Show drive letters - On
Use check boxes to select items - Off

The above are only suggestions, you set it up how you want.

Finally tab to Ok and press enter.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 4 April 2018 10:15
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Silencing the Checked Selected Checked Annoyance?

I seem to recall in Windows there is an option to select use checkboxes for selection and not to use them. I select not to use them, then it works just like any kind of file manager for selection of items.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenny" <kwashingtonbox@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2018 6:33 AM
Subject: [nvda] Silencing the Checked Selected Checked Annoyance?


I just got a new Dell Ultrabook running Windows 10 Pro 64 bit newest 1709
build.


Every time I arrow through the list of installed programs on the desktop
or in File manager I keep hearing the following:

<Name of program> Checked Selected Checked


I just want it to say the name of the program and nothing else.


How can I stop NVDA 2018.1.1 from speaking this extra information when I
navigate through a listview of programs?


I've already disabled the Touch Screen feature of my Ultrabook by the way
and it still says it.


-Kenny





Re: OCR?

bob jutzi <jutzi1@...>
 

Not sure how possible this is, but would love to have the ability of OCR from a scanner.

On 4/4/2018 4:28 PM, Kerryn Gunness via Groups.Io wrote:
if u have windows 10 with NVDA
yup it does
press NVDA plus R
it should work
----- Original Message ----- From: "john s" <jschwery@centurylink.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2018 4:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] OCR?

Does NVDA have OCR? I have a PDF that is an image and want to see the text. Thanks.


John




Re: OCR?

Kerryn Gunness
 

if u have windows 10 with NVDA
yup it does
press NVDA plus R
it should work

----- Original Message -----
From: "john s" <jschwery@centurylink.net>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2018 4:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] OCR?


Does NVDA have OCR? I have a PDF that is an image and want to see the text. Thanks.


John



Re: OCR?

Luis Carlos González Moráles
 

Yes it has. Using the Windows 10 ocr engine, Press NVDA+r to doo this
action. To change the language, go to Preferences, >windows 10 ocr.
Best,
Habibi.
john s wrote:

Does NVDA have OCR?  I have a PDF that is an image and want to see the
text.  Thanks.


                John




OCR?

john s
 

Does NVDA have OCR? I have a PDF that is an image and want to see the text. Thanks.


John


Re: the quest to make Patreon consider accessibility

 

I would say yeah. I'm debating on if we should use the platform @ email or Tal's email address? They have ignored all of my requests, by the way, and whoever is replying to my tweets is doing so in the most blah way possible. Saying this is something that the happiness team would be glad to look into... really? I would say, well, put the twitter response to me on your blog and my email to them. Mention they have ignored me or condescendingly replied to me. In fact, if anybody could share the above... that would be good. Tal is ignoring my phone calls, as well.


Re: Important announcement for addon developers

 

Hi,
Forwarding to a more appropriate list.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2018 11:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Cc: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Important announcement for addon developers

Dear addon developers,

during last years I gathered lot of experience in using NVDA, understanding
how the community works, teaching new users of NVDA to work with it
productively and the most important, maintaining language communities. I
have learned how it is to translate different parts of NVDA including
Addons, user guides, websites etc. I discovered how an issue tracker works
and how open source projects can improve.

The most important part of improvements are discussions between users and
developers. Feedback is the main motor of the future of open source
projects. The same case applies for addons. I am sure that an addon
developer dives into this thing because he or she can do something that
changes people's live, not only his or her life. But well, an addon which
has a simple function can be differently interpreted by the users. That's
why most addon authors are seeking for user feedback and most engaged users
are interested in providing it. We as language maintainers serve as a bridge
between users and developers, especially when we are talking about language
bareers. For us language maintainers it is important that users can benefit
through using your addons. We get the feedback from them first. Valuable
feedback is when many users provide it. Because then we can see different
perspectives and new interesting ideas.

I want to encourage you all to make your addons available to the worldwide
community. Not only to one or few languages. You will get interesting
feedback, new suggestions for interesting functions and most important, you
will contribute to better education and job opportunities especially in less
developped countries.

I encourage you all to use the public translation system provided by NV
Access and maintained by the community. It is not complicated to request to
include your addon on the translation system. This tutorial written by
Noelia Ruiz should help you in doing this.

https://github.com/nvdaaddons/nvdaaddons.github.io/wiki/MakeAddonsTranslatab
le

And finally I encourage you to start cooperations with developers worldwide.
Every developer got his feedback and his experience. The exchange between
developers is one of the most effective way to improve, create new and
maintain existing addons.

Please don't restrict your great work to a small part of the community. You
diserve big respect from the whole community, not only from a part of it.


Best wishes and keep going
Adriani


Re: Important announcement for addon developers

Adriani Botez
 

Sorry the link was broken. Here is it again:

<https://github.com/nvdaaddons/nvdaaddons.github.io/wiki/MakeAddonsTranslata
ble>


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@googlemail.com>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. April 2018 20:48
An: 'nvda-translations@groups.io' <nvda-translations@groups.io>; 'nvda-
addons@nvda-addons.groups.io' <nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io>
Cc: 'nvda@nvda.groups.io' <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Betreff: Important announcement for addon developers

Dear addon developers,

during last years I gathered lot of experience in using NVDA,
understanding
how the community works, teaching new users of NVDA to work with it
productively and the most important, maintaining language communities. I
have learned how it is to translate different parts of NVDA including
Addons,
user guides, websites etc. I discovered how an issue tracker works and how
open source projects can improve.

The most important part of improvements are discussions between users and
developers. Feedback is the main motor of the future of open source
projects.
The same case applies for addons. I am sure that an addon developer dives
into this thing because he or she can do something that changes people's
live,
not only his or her life. But well, an addon which has a simple function
can be
differently interpreted by the users. That's why most addon authors are
seeking for user feedback and most engaged users are interested in
providing
it. We as language maintainers serve as a bridge between users and
developers, especially when we are talking about language bareers. For us
language maintainers it is important that users can benefit through using
your
addons. We get the feedback from them first. Valuable feedback is when
many users provide it. Because then we can see different perspectives and
new interesting ideas.

I want to encourage you all to make your addons available to the worldwide
community. Not only to one or few languages. You will get interesting
feedback, new suggestions for interesting functions and most important,
you
will contribute to better education and job opportunities especially in
less
developped countries.

I encourage you all to use the public translation system provided by NV
Access
and maintained by the community. It is not complicated to request to
include
your addon on the translation system. This tutorial written by Noelia Ruiz
should help you in doing this.

https://github.com/nvdaaddons/nvdaaddons.github.io/wiki/MakeAddonsTra
nslatable

And finally I encourage you to start cooperations with developers
worldwide.
Every developer got his feedback and his experience. The exchange between
developers is one of the most effective way to improve, create new and
maintain existing addons.

Please don't restrict your great work to a small part of the community.
You
diserve big respect from the whole community, not only from a part of it.


Best wishes and keep going
Adriani


Important announcement for addon developers

Adriani Botez
 

Dear addon developers,

during last years I gathered lot of experience in using NVDA, understanding
how the community works, teaching new users of NVDA to work with it
productively and the most important, maintaining language communities. I
have learned how it is to translate different parts of NVDA including
Addons, user guides, websites etc. I discovered how an issue tracker works
and how open source projects can improve.

The most important part of improvements are discussions between users and
developers. Feedback is the main motor of the future of open source
projects. The same case applies for addons. I am sure that an addon
developer dives into this thing because he or she can do something that
changes people's live, not only his or her life. But well, an addon which
has a simple function can be differently interpreted by the users. That's
why most addon authors are seeking for user feedback and most engaged users
are interested in providing it. We as language maintainers serve as a bridge
between users and developers, especially when we are talking about language
bareers. For us language maintainers it is important that users can benefit
through using your addons. We get the feedback from them first. Valuable
feedback is when many users provide it. Because then we can see different
perspectives and new interesting ideas.

I want to encourage you all to make your addons available to the worldwide
community. Not only to one or few languages. You will get interesting
feedback, new suggestions for interesting functions and most important, you
will contribute to better education and job opportunities especially in less
developped countries.

I encourage you all to use the public translation system provided by NV
Access and maintained by the community. It is not complicated to request to
include your addon on the translation system. This tutorial written by
Noelia Ruiz should help you in doing this.

https://github.com/nvdaaddons/nvdaaddons.github.io/wiki/MakeAddonsTranslatab
le

And finally I encourage you to start cooperations with developers worldwide.
Every developer got his feedback and his experience. The exchange between
developers is one of the most effective way to improve, create new and
maintain existing addons.

Please don't restrict your great work to a small part of the community. You
diserve big respect from the whole community, not only from a part of it.


Best wishes and keep going
Adriani


Re: Silencing the Checked Selected Checked Annoyance?

Kenny <kwashingtonbox@...>
 

Yup. I disabled the option in File Explorer and the annoyance is now gone.


On 4/4/2018 5:14 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I seem to recall in Windows there is an option to select  use checkboxes for selection and  not to use them. I select not to use them, then it works just like any kind of file manager for selection of items.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenny" <kwashingtonbox@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2018 6:33 AM
Subject: [nvda] Silencing the Checked Selected Checked Annoyance?


I just got a new Dell Ultrabook running Windows 10 Pro 64 bit newest 1709 build.


Every time I arrow through the list of installed programs on the desktop or in File manager I keep hearing the following:

<Name of program> Checked Selected Checked


I just want it to say the name of the program and nothing else.


How can I stop NVDA 2018.1.1 from speaking this extra information when I navigate through a listview of programs?


I've already disabled the Touch Screen feature of my Ultrabook by the way and it still says it.


-Kenny











Re: Silencing the Checked Selected Checked Annoyance?

Kenny <kwashingtonbox@...>
 

That did it. Thanks!


On 4/4/2018 1:44 AM, Gene New Zealand wrote:

Hi Kenny


I am guessing it is the following.

Use the windows key + letter E so file explorer or what ever it is called comes up.


Then pres the alt key until the file menu comes up then arrow right to the view menu. You will need to open the view menu depending how you have it set it may be when you get to it just tabbing or the space bar might open it.


Tab down until you hear Item check boxes Use check boxes to make selecting multiple items easier. and uncheck that check box. I am sure it was that one.


Close the screen with alt key + F4 key.


You should not hear it after that on the desk top file explofer etc.


hope it helps.


Gene nz



On 4/4/2018 5:33 PM, Kenny wrote:
I just got a new Dell Ultrabook running Windows 10 Pro 64 bit newest 1709 build.


Every time I arrow through the list of installed programs on the desktop or in File manager I keep hearing the following:

<Name of program> Checked Selected Checked


I just want it to say the name of the program and nothing else.


How can I stop NVDA 2018.1.1 from speaking this extra information when I navigate through a listview of programs?


I've already disabled the Touch Screen feature of my Ultrabook by the way and it still says it.


-Kenny






--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: the quest to make Patreon consider accessibility

Sarah k Alawami
 

Would you mind if I put the entire email on my patreon blog? Then the email where all are to email suggestions at? I think this is a good idea but thought I'd ask first.

My patreon is in my sig.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website: http://tffppodcast.com
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and tutorials go to http://tffppodcast.com/premium
and for hosting options go to http://tffppodcast.com/hosting
to subscribe to the feed click here:
http://feeds.feedburner.com/tffp
And for the listen page go here:
http://tffppodcast.com/listen

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here:
http://patreon.tffppodcast.com

On Apr 4, 2018, at 6:11 AM, Robert Kingett <kingettr@gmail.com> wrote:

For the past months I have been trying to advocate for Patreon to take accessibility seriously. The below, is a giant list of threads and otherwise where I and others have attempted to do the same. They refuse to see how important this is. I have lost money because of them and I know many many many disabled creators who would like to use the service but can't, even non blind keyboard users. The below is a blog post not by me, and then my email to a few folks at Patreon I did through some digging, and then the email thread with one employee there to someone else. Enjoy reading. And, no. I am not done.

Before I begin, our advocacy group email is below.

https://accessmedia.groups.io/g/team

team+subscribe@accessmedia.groups.io

Here's one blog post on the subject.

https://incl.ca/patreon-and-accessibility/

And here's their twitter response to me.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PatreonSupport/status/981211237429030912

And here's the email they told me to email. I shared it far and wide.

platform@patreon.com

Now, here is the chain.

Hi!
My name is Robert Kingett. I am a blind patreon who creator who struggles with the service daily. I was thinking about closing my account all together because I was having a really hard, and in some cases, impossible time managing my page and my account.
I use a screen reader, In this case, an open source screen reader called NVDA. I do not use the mouse to navigate. I use the keyboard. To put it simply, a screen reader takes the HTML, reads the HTML, then translates it into a keyboard driven virtual buffer that we can hear while navigating around.
While I've always had a patreon account, even when I could see some, I was constantly unable to manage my profile and or account using a screen reader. My blind supporters have stopped donating to me because they could not change pledges or otherwise cancel their pledges easily. I lost money.
I would be more than happy to work with you on a regular basis to fix the many issues I have found. Some of these include poor heading structure or otherwise missing headings, missing alt text atributes for images... popup dialog box rendering to where the screen reader can see the popped out box... and, a few others. There are several relatively simple fixes you can do on the site that would increase accessibility. Some of the issues encountered throughout
the site include:
Missing alt text
- Missing form labels
- Empty links
- Empty buttons
- Poor visual focus for sighted keyboard only users
- Skipped headings making the document structure hard to understand.
- Orphaned form labels
- Redundant links (2 links side by side going to the same place)
- Links coded as buttons.

These are easy to fix. I would be more than happy to help you make the site more accessible from a screen reader standpoint and beyond. After all, as it stands, I cannot use your service. My patrons couldn't, either, which is why they left.
When can we have a phone call about this? What phone number is the best to reach you? When can we have a conference call about this?

The below email thread is a long running one about lack of accessibility of the service. I know many who would like to use the service and who can't edit their pages or change prices or cancel pledges or even use the service. The app is actually worse than the website. I know many of you are not patreon creators, but this is how I, and many others, make money.

I am gonna call the below today. If anybody wants to send emails or make phone calls, to try to get someone, let me know. clearly, he likes ignoring emails.

Tal Raviv
Product Manager
phone: 561.789.1015
tal@...
. . .
Reply
Like
More
Gregg Rosenberg
Apr 3 #443

Team,
I have great news. I am working with Wayne McKenzie at Apple, the Apple Engineering Team, and YouTube TV indirectly to rectify all the problems I have documented with YouTube TV with respect to app accessibility and once that is under control I will focus on content accessibility and describe audio. Wayne is going to be reaching back to me late this week or early next week with the request of log files engineering and YouTube TV folks wish me to extract from my Apple TV (4th Generation).

On Apr 3, 2018, at 11:26 AM, Robert Kingett <kingettr@... wrote:

The below email thread is a long running one about lack of accessibility of the service. I know many who would like to use the service and who can't edit their pages or change prices or cancel pledges or even use the service. The app is actually worse than the website. I know many of you are not patreon creators, but this is how I, and many others, make money.

I am gonna call the below today. If anybody wants to send emails or make phone calls, to try to get someone, let me know. clearly, he likes ignoring emails.

Tal Raviv
Product Manager
phone: 561.789.1015
tal@...

On 4/3/2018 11:10 AM, Nicolas Steenhout wrote:
Hello again Tal,

I haven't heard from you for nearly a week on my latest email, and for nearly 3 weeks on my previous email.

I have included Robert Kingett on this email as he is a blind individual who is unable to use Patreon. He is interested in speaking to people at Patreon on improving accessibility.

Thank you

Nic

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 1:04 PM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@... wrote:
Hello again,

Are you able to give me an update? It's now been 10 months since I first reached out to you about accessibility. I did not hear back from you about who I can speak within Patreon to get this moving.

I have people who want to become my patron, but are unable to use the site because of the accessibility issues. Your lack of movement is costing me money.

I also know artists and podcasters with disabilities who want to put their projects on Patreon, but who are unable to join because Patreon is not accessible.

It would be great if Patreon came to accessibility willingly rather than dragging their feet to it.

Thank you for a PROMPT response.

Nic

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 4:35 PM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@... wrote:
Thank you.

I'm sorry, but "it's on our list and in our consciousness" isn't good
enough anymore. It's been well over 6 months that I initially
contacted Patreon about this issue.

To say "it's on our list", is basically paying lip service to
something that impacts a large minority. Promises without action are
empty.

Who can I speak to within Patreon that can provide more information
and act on it?

Thank you

Nic

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@... wrote:
Nicolas, thanks for the ping. It's on our list and in our consciousness, and
I can't externally provide dates.

Tal Raviv
Product Manager
561.789.1015


On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@... wrote:

Hello again Tal,

I'm reviving this conversation because it's been nearly 6 months with
no movement on Patreon's part on this.

What are you going to do to improve accessibility?
When are you going to do it?

Nic

On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@... wrote:
Yep, to be clear we're not creating an accessibility API.

I appreciate the deep insights, and I agree we have major problems. That
is
an impressive list. I can think of additional bad situations that are
also
very embarrassing, from our own experiences internally.

We need to fix this. Period. I can't share too much more about our
difficult
internal decisions, but I can tell you that this is something that
everyone
on the product team is aligned with and knows is important as Patreon
grows
to become a significant membership engine. We also know that
accessibility
is a scale we need to climb and do not want to treat as a checkbox and
must
be respected as an ongoing commitment.

Let's stay in touch. When this comes near, we will need help.

Tal

Tal Raviv
Product Manager, Growth and Platform
561.789.1015


On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@... wrote:

Hello again Tal,

If you'll allow me to be candid - I think your approach of doing an
accessibility API is entirely the wrong approach. This is pretty much
akin
to relying on 3rd party vendors to offer accessibility. It's an
approach
that doesn't work. I know - I've been working in this field for over
two
decades and I've see it over and over.

I'm not saying APIs are bad, but they should not be your first solution
for accessibility.

There are several relatively simple fixes you can do on the site that
would increase accessibility. Some of the issues encountered throughout
the
site include:

- Missing alt text
- Missing form labels
- Empty links
- Empty buttons
- Poor visual focus for sighted keyboard only users
- Skipped headings making the document structure hard to understand.
- Orphaned form labels
- Redundant links (2 links side by side going to the same place)
- Links coded as buttons

And these were found in less than 5 minutes looking at the different
sections of the site. I think it would be fair to say that these issues
apply at all workflows on Patreon.

I would *strongly* suggest that your team spend some time analysing the
pages from an accessibility perspective. Try to use the site with only
the
keyboard. Use VoiceOver (if you're on OS X) or download NVDA if you're
on
Windows. Try to navigate the site that way. Look at each page using an
automated accessibility checker (keep in mind these tend to capture
only
about 40% of the issues, but they'll give you a great overview of all
the
pages you have). Tools like tenon.io or WebAIM's WAVE toolbar can help
you
identify many issues quite quickly.

And if you feel you don't have the expertise on your team to make it
happen, hire someone who does that. Obviously, I'd love to put myself
forward to provide assessment and training to your teams - it's what I
do.
There are many good, reputable outfits out there that could also help.

Nic


On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 1:55 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@... wrote:

Hi Nic - that's really good information. Can you elaborate on their
troubles? One initiative is that we are working hard on our API
platform.
This will allow many other apps and readers and other content
platforms to
deliver and gate content to approach accessibility in a high-leverage
way.
I'd love to have a quick description/understanding of their issues
(content
related, payment related, etc)

Tal Raviv
Product Manager, Growth and Platform
561.789.1015


On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@...
wrote:

Thank you for the update.

Are you able to share what these initatives are? Is there any way I
can
help?

I have *several* people who need accessibility that aren't able to
access my podcasts about accessibility on Patreon. This is beyond
important
to me.

Thank you

Nic

On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 12:40 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@... wrote:

Hi Nicolas, very much agreed this is important. I appreciate the
follow
up and keeping this top of mind.

Right now we have prioritized a few initiatives that are
mission-critical in order to be able to address accessibility. Not
my ideal
answer - will keep you posted.

Tal

Tal Raviv
Product Manager, Growth and Platform
561.789.1015


On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 11:46 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@...
wrote:

Hello Tal,

It's been nearly 3 months since we discussed accessibility at
Patreon.
Are you able to give me an indication as to when the accessibility
team will
be in place and starting work on these important issues?

Thank you.

Nic

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@... wrote:

Hi Nicolas,

Perfect and thank you for reaching out. We have done some scoping
of
accessibility, enough to know how bad we are at it. We are
spinning up a
team that would officially own this aspect of our product,
including other
frontend infrastructure. Now that we've grown to much greater
reach than
ever before, creator and patron accessibility is super important
to us
moving forward.

Although I have scoped this in the past, will not be leading this
team, and I will share your information with those who will do
that to reach
out when they finish staffing and forming it.

Tal


Tal Raviv
Product Manager, Growth and Platform
561.789.1015


On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 9:48 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@...
wrote:

Hello Tal,

Adam gave me your name and email address and said you were the
best
person to speak to about improving web accessibility for Patreon.

As I was telling him, I'm interested in using the platform as a
Creator, but my field of expertise is web accessibility and it
would be
great if Patreon were to be accessible to people with
disabilities.

I'm not sure how much work or digging you guys have done in that
area at this point. There are several things I could do with you
to work on
improving, including providing training to your design, dev and
QA teams to
running an audit, and even helping directly with remediation if
you want.

I had a very quick look and noticed several issues that would be
easy fixes and quick wins. Some other areas would require a
deeper analysis
and a bit more work.

Perhaps the best thing would be to get on a call at some point
next
week and see where you're at and how we can work together to
improve things?
My schedule is pretty open so please let me know what a good time
for you
would be.

Thank you

Nic



the quest to make Patreon consider accessibility

 

For the past months I have been trying to advocate for Patreon to take accessibility seriously. The below, is a giant list of threads and otherwise where I and others have attempted to do the same. They refuse to see how important this is. I have lost money because of them and I know many many many disabled creators who would like to use the service but can't, even non blind keyboard users. The below is a blog post not by me, and then my email to a few folks at Patreon I did through some digging, and then the email thread with one employee there to someone else. Enjoy reading. And, no. I am not done.

Before I begin, our advocacy group email is below.

https://accessmedia.groups.io/g/team

team+subscribe@accessmedia.groups.io

Here's one blog post on the subject.

https://incl.ca/patreon-and-accessibility/

And here's their twitter response to me.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PatreonSupport/status/981211237429030912

And here's the email they told me to email. I shared it far and wide.

platform@patreon.com

Now, here is the chain.

Hi!
My name is Robert Kingett. I am a blind patreon who creator who struggles with the service daily. I was thinking about closing my account all together because I was having a really hard, and in some cases, impossible time managing my page and my account.
I use a screen reader, In this case, an open source screen reader called NVDA. I do not use the mouse to navigate. I use the keyboard. To put it simply, a screen reader takes the HTML, reads the HTML, then translates it into a keyboard driven virtual buffer that we can hear while navigating around.
While I've always had a patreon account, even when I could see some, I was constantly unable to manage my profile and or account using a screen reader. My blind supporters have stopped donating to me because they could not change pledges or otherwise cancel their pledges easily. I lost money.
I would be more than happy to work with you on a regular basis to fix the many issues I have found. Some of these include poor heading structure or otherwise missing headings, missing alt text atributes for images... popup dialog box rendering to where the screen reader can see the popped out box... and, a few others. There are several relatively simple fixes you can do on the site that would increase accessibility. Some of the issues encountered throughout
the site include:
Missing alt text
  - Missing form labels
  - Empty links
  - Empty buttons
  - Poor visual focus for sighted keyboard only users
  - Skipped headings making the document structure hard to understand.
  - Orphaned form labels
  - Redundant links (2 links side by side going to the same place)
  - Links coded as buttons.

These are easy to fix. I would be more than happy to help you make the site more accessible from a screen reader standpoint and beyond. After all, as it stands, I cannot use your service. My patrons couldn't, either, which is why they left.
When can we have a phone call about this? What phone number is the best to reach you? When can we have a conference call about this?

The below email thread is a long running one about lack of accessibility of the service. I know many who would like to use the service and who can't edit their pages or change prices or cancel pledges or even use the service. The app is actually worse than the website. I know many of you are not patreon creators, but this is how I, and many others, make money.

I am gonna call the below today. If anybody wants to send emails or make phone calls, to try to get someone, let me know. clearly, he likes ignoring emails.

Tal Raviv
Product Manager
phone: 561.789.1015
tal@...
. . .
Reply
Like
More
Gregg Rosenberg
Apr 3   #443

Team,
I have great news. I am working with Wayne McKenzie at Apple, the Apple Engineering Team, and YouTube TV indirectly to rectify all the problems I have documented with YouTube TV with respect to app accessibility and once that is under control I will focus on content accessibility and describe audio. Wayne is going to be reaching back to me late this week or early next week with the request of log files engineering and YouTube TV folks wish me to extract from my Apple TV (4th Generation).

On Apr 3, 2018, at 11:26 AM, Robert Kingett <kingettr@... wrote:

The below email thread is a long running one about lack of accessibility of the service. I know many who would like to use the service and who can't edit their pages or change prices or cancel pledges or even use the service. The app is actually worse than the website. I know many of you are not patreon creators, but this is how I, and many others, make money.

I am gonna call the below today. If anybody wants to send emails or make phone calls, to try to get someone, let me know. clearly, he likes ignoring emails.

Tal Raviv
Product Manager
phone: 561.789.1015
tal@...

On 4/3/2018 11:10 AM, Nicolas Steenhout wrote:
Hello again Tal,

I haven't heard from you for nearly a week on my latest email, and for nearly 3 weeks on my previous email.

I have included Robert Kingett on this email as he is a blind individual who is unable to use Patreon. He is interested in speaking to people at Patreon on improving accessibility.

Thank you

Nic

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 1:04 PM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@... wrote:
Hello again,

Are you able to give me an update? It's now been 10 months since I first reached out to you about accessibility. I did not hear back from you about who I can speak within Patreon to get this moving.

I have people who want to become my patron, but are unable to use the site because of the accessibility issues. Your lack of movement is costing me money.

I also know artists and podcasters with disabilities who want to put their projects on Patreon, but who are unable to join because Patreon is not accessible.

It would be great if Patreon came to accessibility willingly rather than dragging their feet to it.

Thank you for a PROMPT response.

Nic

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 4:35 PM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@... wrote:
Thank you.

I'm sorry, but "it's on our list and in our consciousness" isn't good
enough anymore. It's been well over 6 months that I initially
contacted Patreon about this issue.

To say "it's on our list", is basically paying lip service to
something that impacts a large minority. Promises without action are
empty.

Who can I speak to within Patreon that can provide more information
and act on it?

Thank you

Nic

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@... wrote:
Nicolas, thanks for the ping. It's on our list and in our consciousness, and
I can't externally provide dates.

Tal Raviv
Product Manager
561.789.1015


On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:24 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@... wrote:

Hello again Tal,

I'm reviving this conversation because it's been nearly 6 months with
no movement on Patreon's part on this.

What are you going to do to improve accessibility?
When are you going to do it?

Nic

On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 8:08 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@... wrote:
Yep, to be clear we're not creating an accessibility API.

I appreciate the deep insights, and I agree we have major problems. That
is
an impressive list. I can think of additional bad situations that are
also
very embarrassing, from our own experiences internally.

We need to fix this. Period. I can't share too much more about our
difficult
internal decisions, but I can tell you that this is something that
everyone
on the product team is aligned with and knows is important as Patreon
grows
to become a significant membership engine. We also know that
accessibility
is a scale we need to climb and do not want to treat as a checkbox and
must
be respected as an ongoing commitment.

Let's stay in touch. When this comes near, we will need help.

Tal

Tal Raviv
Product Manager, Growth and Platform
561.789.1015


On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@... wrote:

Hello again Tal,

If you'll allow me to be candid - I think your approach of doing an
accessibility API is entirely the wrong approach. This is pretty much
akin
to relying on 3rd party vendors to offer accessibility. It's an
approach
that doesn't work. I know - I've been working in this field for over
two
decades and I've see it over and over.

I'm not saying APIs are bad, but they should not be your first solution
for accessibility.

There are several relatively simple fixes you can do on the site that
would increase accessibility. Some of the issues encountered throughout
the
site include:

- Missing alt text
- Missing form labels
- Empty links
- Empty buttons
- Poor visual focus for sighted keyboard only users
- Skipped headings making the document structure hard to understand.
- Orphaned form labels
- Redundant links (2 links side by side going to the same place)
- Links coded as buttons

And these were found in less than 5 minutes looking at the different
sections of the site. I think it would be fair to say that these issues
apply at all workflows on Patreon.

I would *strongly* suggest that your team spend some time analysing the
pages from an accessibility perspective. Try to use the site with only
the
keyboard. Use VoiceOver (if you're on OS X) or download NVDA if you're
on
Windows. Try to navigate the site that way. Look at each page using an
automated accessibility checker (keep in mind these tend to capture
only
about 40% of the issues, but they'll give you a great overview of all
the
pages you have). Tools like tenon.io or WebAIM's WAVE toolbar can help
you
identify many issues quite quickly.

And if you feel you don't have the expertise on your team to make it
happen, hire someone who does that. Obviously, I'd love to put myself
forward to provide assessment and training to your teams - it's what I
do.
There are many good, reputable outfits out there that could also help.

Nic


On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 1:55 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@... wrote:

Hi Nic - that's really good information. Can you elaborate on their
troubles? One initiative is that we are working hard on our API
platform.
This will allow many other apps and readers and other content
platforms to
deliver and gate content to approach accessibility in a high-leverage
way.
I'd love to have a quick description/understanding of their issues
(content
related, payment related, etc)

Tal Raviv
Product Manager, Growth and Platform
561.789.1015


On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@...
wrote:

Thank you for the update.

Are you able to share what these initatives are? Is there any way I
can
help?

I have *several* people who need accessibility that aren't able to
access my podcasts about accessibility on Patreon. This is beyond
important
to me.

Thank you

Nic

On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 12:40 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@... wrote:

Hi Nicolas, very much agreed this is important. I appreciate the
follow
up and keeping this top of mind.

Right now we have prioritized a few initiatives that are
mission-critical in order to be able to address accessibility. Not
my ideal
answer - will keep you posted.

Tal

Tal Raviv
Product Manager, Growth and Platform
561.789.1015


On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 11:46 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@...
wrote:

Hello Tal,

It's been nearly 3 months since we discussed accessibility at
Patreon.
Are you able to give me an indication as to when the accessibility
team will
be in place and starting work on these important issues?

Thank you.

Nic

On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Tal Raviv <tal@... wrote:

Hi Nicolas,

Perfect and thank you for reaching out. We have done some scoping
of
accessibility, enough to know how bad we are at it. We are
spinning up a
team that would officially own this aspect of our product,
including other
frontend infrastructure. Now that we've grown to much greater
reach than
ever before, creator and patron accessibility is super important
to us
moving forward.

Although I have scoped this in the past, will not be leading this
team, and I will share your information with those who will do
that to reach
out when they finish staffing and forming it.

Tal


Tal Raviv
Product Manager, Growth and Platform
561.789.1015


On Fri, Jul 7, 2017 at 9:48 AM, Nicolas Steenhout <nic@...
wrote:

Hello Tal,

Adam gave me your name and email address and said you were the
best
person to speak to about improving web accessibility for Patreon.

As I was telling him, I'm interested in using the platform as a
Creator, but my field of expertise is web accessibility and it
would be
great if Patreon were to be accessible to people with
disabilities.

I'm not sure how much work or digging you guys have done in that
area at this point. There are several things I could do with you
to work on
improving, including providing training to your design, dev and
QA teams to
running an audit, and even helping directly with remediation if
you want.

I had a very quick look and noticed several issues that would be
easy fixes and quick wins. Some other areas would require a
deeper analysis
and a bit more work.

Perhaps the best thing would be to get on a call at some point
next
week and see where you're at and how we can work together to
improve things?
My schedule is pretty open so please let me know what a good time
for you
would be.

Thank you

Nic