Date   

Re: Email clients

Damien Garwood <damien@...>
 

Hi,
I can see advantages to both sides of the argument, having had to use IMAP at one point while dealing with an internet radio station.
POP has the advantage that things are stored locally, so that if you don’t have access to the internet, and you need to access a message, you can. Although 99.9% of the time we’re connected, all it takes is a house move, where you can be without internet for a good three weeks (yes, I’m talking from experience here), and you’re screwed.
Having said that, my laptop doesn’t have email access, because then it would mean manual syncing and transferring and blah. Similarly, in the days when phones had buttons (I miss you Nokia!), I deliberately didn’t set mail up on it, because I knew my devices wouldn’t be synced, and trying to transfer data between clients is bad enough, forget operating systems.
So yes. Both have their pros and cons.
Cheers.
Damien.
 

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients
 
On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 11:30 am, Gene wrote:
I don't use IMAP so I can't compare.  But without more information, the assumption that everyone should use IMAP shouldn't be made.
Yes, Gene, it can be made if one is setting up a new account.   There is absolutely no advantage of POP unless you have constant need to access very old e-mail messages and are very frequently not connected to the internet.  And that's whether or not one is using multiple devices or not.   IMAP keeps all messages, and folders you may create for categorizing them, on the e-mail server and I don't know of a single data center that doesn't have far better backup plans than any individual could have.  This also saves the nightmare of having to export and import e-mail messages if one changes computers or adds another computer or mobile device from which one now wishes to access mail.

Even if one is setting up one's existing account, that has been using POP, it's better to set it up as IMAP in the new e-mail client and transfer all of your existing mail over to the server using your current client to do so.  It's all well documented in this article:  https://www.msoutlook.info/question/634

IMAP has come to supplant POP almost entirely, and for good reasons.  I would never suggest setting up a new account as POP because most people these days do want to have the ability to access the same account or accounts from multiple devices and, even if they don't, the convenience of being able to abandon one e-mail client for another and just set up their account in another and everything is "automagically" there.
 
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            ~ Niels Bohr

 

 


Re: Email clients

matthew dyer <ilovecountrymusic483@...>
 

Hi,

 

Does anyone know if lightning works with online calendars such as the google calendar?  I use thunderbird in Linux and use it just fine but was wondering if  this worked or nort.

 

Thanks.

 

Matthew

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 11:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Honestly, the only issue with TB that I’ve seen is the annoying as heck message telling me unresponsive script call. And, I only see that when deleting multiple messages at one given time in a batch. Now, if that issue’s been fixed, I’ll gladly stop usingt Outlook 2016, and go back, as TB by far and away has been my favorite.

 

Chris.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 11:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Have you tried Windows Live Mail?  It is not bloated to a bothersome extent and it is not slow.  It has features like a calendar but they aren't intrusive and you can use the program and never come across them unless you intentionally look for them. 

 

I haven't used thunderbird enough to know if it is slow in general.  I tried it on a machine that is already an old slow machine and it was annoyingly slow at opening messages but I don't know how it is on a fast machine.  However, you are the second person I've seen complain of slowness in the last number of months so that's a little more evidence for it being slow.  But I don't draw conclusions about performance on just two reports.  Five or ten would be much more conclusive since programs can perform differently on different machines even if the machines provide good results with programs in general.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Yeah, I don't like any of the mail clients either. Thunderbird is the best, but it is laggy, extremely laggy, bloated, etc.

 

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Damien,

 

If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options.  In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS.  Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird.  This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.

 

 

 

On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:

Hi there,

 

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:

* Check emails.

* Install Dropbox.

* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.

* Uninstall Dropbox.

* Attempt to check emails.

* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.

So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.

I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

 

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.

This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:

1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,

2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and

3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

 

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:

 

1. OEClassic

Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

 

2. Pegasus

While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

 

3. Thunderbird

Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

 

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.

At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.
Damien.

 

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

 


Re: thunderbirdRe: [nvda] Email clients

 

Repeating myself from the originating thread:

By the way, for those using Thunderbird who wish to rearrange the ordering of columns shown and/or add or remove them, Gene NZ gives instructions on how to move them at:   http://accessibilitycentral.net/accessible%20email%20client%20mozilla%20thunderbird.html.   I have no experience with the add-on previously mentioned for doing this, and I would expect that it might make things much easier, but it's not essential.

If memory serves he also discusses the button that's at the far end of the list of column headers that is the column selection button.  I know I've helped someone add the read/unread status for a message or move it to the leftmost position in the columns at one point in the past.

--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


thunderbirdRe: [nvda] Email clients

Annette Moore
 

How do you get the sender's name first? I know I can do it from within a message by pressing control+windows+the number 1, but is there a way to get it to read the name and subject first from within your list of messages with this particular add-on? I can live with it not reading those things first, but if there's a way to get it to do that, I'd be a happy girl!

Annette


On 4/15/2018 9:40 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Damien,


If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options.  In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS.  Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird.  This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.




On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:
Hi there,
 
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.
 
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
 
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:
 
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.
 
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
 
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.
 
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Email clients

 

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 11:30 am, Gene wrote:
I don't use IMAP so I can't compare.  But without more information, the assumption that everyone should use IMAP shouldn't be made. 
Yes, Gene, it can be made if one is setting up a new account.   There is absolutely no advantage of POP unless you have constant need to access very old e-mail messages and are very frequently not connected to the internet.  And that's whether or not one is using multiple devices or not.   IMAP keeps all messages, and folders you may create for categorizing them, on the e-mail server and I don't know of a single data center that doesn't have far better backup plans than any individual could have.  This also saves the nightmare of having to export and import e-mail messages if one changes computers or adds another computer or mobile device from which one now wishes to access mail.

Even if one is setting up one's existing account, that has been using POP, it's better to set it up as IMAP in the new e-mail client and transfer all of your existing mail over to the server using your current client to do so.  It's all well documented in this article:  https://www.msoutlook.info/question/634

IMAP has come to supplant POP almost entirely, and for good reasons.  I would never suggest setting up a new account as POP because most people these days do want to have the ability to access the same account or accounts from multiple devices and, even if they don't, the convenience of being able to abandon one e-mail client for another and just set up their account in another and everything is "automagically" there.
 
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Re: Email clients

Euclid Mukuronga
 

Therein lies the advantage of IMAP: messages are not permanently deleted
from the server. Which means that even if you are using one device, when
that device is lost or crashes, you don't lose your email messages.
Also, with IMAP, setting up things like filters and creating of folders
can be done on the server and synced to your email client, rather than
setting them up for each device you use. There is one central server to
manage your email organisation such that you create a filter or folder
and forget about it for the next years or so, and your messages would be
distributed according to the rules you set.


IMAP also syncs all folders, rather than pulling messages from the inbox
only: which means you can choose to have all folders downloaded to your
email client.


As for Brian's advice, I think he was just advising: and like any
advice, a person is free to take it or leave it based on the information
available to them. So a person who renders advice will certainly do so
pointing out the obvious advantages and disadvantages to a particular
action, So the "should always use" in this context could be understood
in that context and not as a peremptory statement.

Gene:

If you set up a machine with an IMAP account and another e-mail
program on that machine or another is already using POP3 and is
automatically deleting messages from the server, there will be little
or nothing to download in the program using IMAP at the outset because
the other program will have been removing messages as that program
downloads them.  So you will still have to import messages from your
other program if you want them in the new one even if you set up an
IMAP account. 
 
Also, for people who don't use more than one device, computer or
whatever, to download e-mail, I don't know if IMAP is as convenient. 
I don't use IMAP so I can't compare.  But without more information,
the assumption that everyone should use IMAP shouldn't be made. 
 
You didn't say everyone should use IMAP, but often in such
discussions, that is the impression given by the exchange of
messages.  I'm saying that unless this is demonstrated, it shouldn't
be assumed by readers.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, April 15, 2018 10:30 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Email clients

Thunderbird has not been, in my experience, slow.  It is also
configurable "out the wazoo" so you can eliminate seeing the vast
majority of the defaults you don't want to see if you look up how to
turn them off.  When I've been installing Thunderbird for my blind and
VI clients I do not set up the calendar feature, Lightning, unless
they say they actually use an electronic calendar.

Also, if at all possible, when setting up e-mail accounts these days,
one should always use IMAP access.  This eliminates the need to import
messages entirely when a new e-mail client is set up, since that
happens all on its own after the client syncs with the server.  

It's also worth considering using your e-mail provider's webmail
interface, too.
--
Brian  - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot
level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

*/     /**/The opposite of a correct statement is a false
statement./**/  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be
another/**/ profound truth./*

*/            ~ /**/Niels Bohr/*

 

 


Re: help, can't get balloon about Win 10 back!

Gene
 

If it's downloading in the background, can you tell by looking at something in the system tray or in some other way?  And why was this message shown now?  Did you do anything at any time to try to apply for or get Windows 10?
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Jessica D
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] help, can't get balloon about Win 10 back!

Hi,
no, just win7 home premium.
Does that even exist in win10?


Thanks,
Jessica


> On Apr 15, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Brian Moore <bmoore@...> wrote:
>
> Hi.  It may be downloading it in the background.
>
> However, if you want to initiate the process manually to ensure that it is happening, you can get the tool to upgrade your pc from here.
>
> https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=691209
>
>
> Has this pc ever had windows 10 on it before.  The free period for upgrading is over so it will need to have obtained a license already or it will want you to purchase a product key.
>
> Write back if you need more help.
>
> Brian.
>
>
>
>> On 15/04/2018 1:10 PM, Jessica D wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I have a windows 7 laptop, with both Jaws 16, and NVDA 2018.1.1 on it
>> This morning, when I booted the system, I got a message in the corner of my screen, which said, "get windows 10" so I clicked it, and supposedly, reserved my copy.
>> note: at that time, I wasn't connected to wifi, but apparently it still worked.
>> I wish I could get that balloon back, now that I'm connected  just to make sure.
>> Windows 7 is very slow.
>>
>> What can I do?
>> Sorry for cross-posting but I felt that was best, since I have both screen-readers installed, although, Jaws is unlicensed.
>>
>> Thanks for any help you can provide.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jessica
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>




Re: Email clients

Gene
 

That sounds like a message that occurs when reading mail as HTML.  If you read mail as either plain text or as simple HTML, you shouldn't get that message because neither choice allows scripts to run.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

Honestly, the only issue with TB that I’ve seen is the annoying as heck message telling me unresponsive script call. And, I only see that when deleting multiple messages at one given time in a batch. Now, if that issue’s been fixed, I’ll gladly stop usingt Outlook 2016, and go back, as TB by far and away has been my favorite.

 

Chris.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 11:25 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Have you tried Windows Live Mail?  It is not bloated to a bothersome extent and it is not slow.  It has features like a calendar but they aren't intrusive and you can use the program and never come across them unless you intentionally look for them. 

 

I haven't used thunderbird enough to know if it is slow in general.  I tried it on a machine that is already an old slow machine and it was annoyingly slow at opening messages but I don't know how it is on a fast machine.  However, you are the second person I've seen complain of slowness in the last number of months so that's a little more evidence for it being slow.  But I don't draw conclusions about performance on just two reports.  Five or ten would be much more conclusive since programs can perform differently on different machines even if the machines provide good results with programs in general.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Yeah, I don't like any of the mail clients either. Thunderbird is the best, but it is laggy, extremely laggy, bloated, etc.

 

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Damien,

 

If you use Thunderbird, a lot of the extraneous stuff can be turned off under tools/options.  In addition, NVDA works much better with Thunderbird than does JAWS.  Also, there is an add on for Thunderbird and Firefox for NVDA that allows among other things, the re positioning of columns in Thunderbird.  This is very convenient for those of us who wish to have the Sender's name first rather than the default subject line first in the columns as they are read when you move up/down a list of received messages.

 

 

 

On 4/15/2018 10:12 AM, Damien Garwood wrote:

Hi there,

 

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:

* Check emails.

* Install Dropbox.

* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.

* Uninstall Dropbox.

* Attempt to check emails.

* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.

So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.

I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

 

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.

This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:

1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,

2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and

3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

 

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:

 

1. OEClassic

Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

 

2. Pegasus

While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

 

3. Thunderbird

Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

 

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.

At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.
Damien.

 

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

 


Re: Email clients

Gene
 

I should add that if GMail is being used, what I wrote may not apply.  but then, it wouldn't apply to use of a POP account either.  When a new client is used with GMail, all mail in the inbox is downloaded to the new client when POP is used.  I'm not sure if a POP e-mail program can be instructed to remove messages from the GMail inbox. 
 
I was discussing using services such as AT&T, Verizon, and other e-mail services that don't want to save everything as GMail does.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

If you set up a machine with an IMAP account and another e-mail program on that machine or another is already using POP3 and is automatically deleting messages from the server, there will be little or nothing to download in the program using IMAP at the outset because the other program will have been removing messages as that program downloads them.  So you will still have to import messages from your other program if you want them in the new one even if you set up an IMAP account. 
 
Also, for people who don't use more than one device, computer or whatever, to download e-mail, I don't know if IMAP is as convenient.  I don't use IMAP so I can't compare.  But without more information, the assumption that everyone should use IMAP shouldn't be made. 
 
You didn't say everyone should use IMAP, but often in such discussions, that is the impression given by the exchange of messages.  I'm saying that unless this is demonstrated, it shouldn't be assumed by readers.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

Thunderbird has not been, in my experience, slow.  It is also configurable "out the wazoo" so you can eliminate seeing the vast majority of the defaults you don't want to see if you look up how to turn them off.  When I've been installing Thunderbird for my blind and VI clients I do not set up the calendar feature, Lightning, unless they say they actually use an electronic calendar.

Also, if at all possible, when setting up e-mail accounts these days, one should always use IMAP access.  This eliminates the need to import messages entirely when a new e-mail client is set up, since that happens all on its own after the client syncs with the server.  

It's also worth considering using your e-mail provider's webmail interface, too.
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Re: Email clients

Gene
 

If you set up a machine with an IMAP account and another e-mail program on that machine or another is already using POP3 and is automatically deleting messages from the server, there will be little or nothing to download in the program using IMAP at the outset because the other program will have been removing messages as that program downloads them.  So you will still have to import messages from your other program if you want them in the new one even if you set up an IMAP account. 
 
Also, for people who don't use more than one device, computer or whatever, to download e-mail, I don't know if IMAP is as convenient.  I don't use IMAP so I can't compare.  But without more information, the assumption that everyone should use IMAP shouldn't be made. 
 
You didn't say everyone should use IMAP, but often in such discussions, that is the impression given by the exchange of messages.  I'm saying that unless this is demonstrated, it shouldn't be assumed by readers.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

Thunderbird has not been, in my experience, slow.  It is also configurable "out the wazoo" so you can eliminate seeing the vast majority of the defaults you don't want to see if you look up how to turn them off.  When I've been installing Thunderbird for my blind and VI clients I do not set up the calendar feature, Lightning, unless they say they actually use an electronic calendar.

Also, if at all possible, when setting up e-mail accounts these days, one should always use IMAP access.  This eliminates the need to import messages entirely when a new e-mail client is set up, since that happens all on its own after the client syncs with the server.  

It's also worth considering using your e-mail provider's webmail interface, too.
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Re: help, can't get balloon about Win 10 back!

Jessica D
 

Hi,
Indeed, you are.



Thanks,
Jessica

On Apr 15, 2018, at 1:46 PM, zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@gmail.com> wrote:

hi.
from your message:
i realize that
you have windows seven, but you recieved a message for upgrading to windows ten.
am i right?

On 4/15/18, Jessica D <jldail13@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
no, just win7 home premium.
Does that even exist in win10?


Thanks,
Jessica


On Apr 15, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Brian Moore <bmoore@screenreview.org> wrote:

Hi. It may be downloading it in the background.

However, if you want to initiate the process manually to ensure that it is
happening, you can get the tool to upgrade your pc from here.

https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=691209


Has this pc ever had windows 10 on it before. The free period for
upgrading is over so it will need to have obtained a license already or it
will want you to purchase a product key.

Write back if you need more help.

Brian.



On 15/04/2018 1:10 PM, Jessica D wrote:
Hi,
I have a windows 7 laptop, with both Jaws 16, and NVDA 2018.1.1 on it
This morning, when I booted the system, I got a message in the corner of
my screen, which said, "get windows 10" so I clicked it, and supposedly,
reserved my copy.
note: at that time, I wasn't connected to wifi, but apparently it still
worked.
I wish I could get that balloon back, now that I'm connected just to
make sure.
Windows 7 is very slow.

What can I do?
Sorry for cross-posting but I felt that was best, since I have both
screen-readers installed, although, Jaws is unlicensed.

Thanks for any help you can provide.



Thanks,
Jessica







--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali



Re: help, can't get balloon about Win 10 back!

 

hi.
from your message:
i realize that
you have windows seven, but you recieved a message for upgrading to windows ten.
am i right?

On 4/15/18, Jessica D <jldail13@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
no, just win7 home premium.
Does that even exist in win10?


Thanks,
Jessica


On Apr 15, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Brian Moore <bmoore@screenreview.org> wrote:

Hi. It may be downloading it in the background.

However, if you want to initiate the process manually to ensure that it is
happening, you can get the tool to upgrade your pc from here.

https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=691209


Has this pc ever had windows 10 on it before. The free period for
upgrading is over so it will need to have obtained a license already or it
will want you to purchase a product key.

Write back if you need more help.

Brian.



On 15/04/2018 1:10 PM, Jessica D wrote:
Hi,
I have a windows 7 laptop, with both Jaws 16, and NVDA 2018.1.1 on it
This morning, when I booted the system, I got a message in the corner of
my screen, which said, "get windows 10" so I clicked it, and supposedly,
reserved my copy.
note: at that time, I wasn't connected to wifi, but apparently it still
worked.
I wish I could get that balloon back, now that I'm connected just to
make sure.
Windows 7 is very slow.

What can I do?
Sorry for cross-posting but I felt that was best, since I have both
screen-readers installed, although, Jaws is unlicensed.

Thanks for any help you can provide.



Thanks,
Jessica






--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


Re: help, can't get balloon about Win 10 back!

Jessica D
 

Hi,
no, just win7 home premium.
Does that even exist in win10?


Thanks,
Jessica

On Apr 15, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Brian Moore <bmoore@screenreview.org> wrote:

Hi. It may be downloading it in the background.

However, if you want to initiate the process manually to ensure that it is happening, you can get the tool to upgrade your pc from here.

https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=691209


Has this pc ever had windows 10 on it before. The free period for upgrading is over so it will need to have obtained a license already or it will want you to purchase a product key.

Write back if you need more help.

Brian.



On 15/04/2018 1:10 PM, Jessica D wrote:
Hi,
I have a windows 7 laptop, with both Jaws 16, and NVDA 2018.1.1 on it
This morning, when I booted the system, I got a message in the corner of my screen, which said, "get windows 10" so I clicked it, and supposedly, reserved my copy.
note: at that time, I wasn't connected to wifi, but apparently it still worked.
I wish I could get that balloon back, now that I'm connected just to make sure.
Windows 7 is very slow.

What can I do?
Sorry for cross-posting but I felt that was best, since I have both screen-readers installed, although, Jaws is unlicensed.

Thanks for any help you can provide.



Thanks,
Jessica





Re: help, can't get balloon about Win 10 back!

Brian Moore
 

Hi.  It may be downloading it in the background.

However, if you want to initiate the process manually to ensure that it is happening, you can get the tool to upgrade your pc from here.

https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=691209


Has this pc ever had windows 10 on it before.  The free period for upgrading is over so it will need to have obtained a license already or it will want you to purchase a product key.

Write back if you need more help.

Brian.

On 15/04/2018 1:10 PM, Jessica D wrote:
Hi,
I have a windows 7 laptop, with both Jaws 16, and NVDA 2018.1.1 on it
This morning, when I booted the system, I got a message in the corner of my screen, which said, "get windows 10" so I clicked it, and supposedly, reserved my copy.
note: at that time, I wasn't connected to wifi, but apparently it still worked.
I wish I could get that balloon back, now that I'm connected just to make sure.
Windows 7 is very slow.

What can I do?
Sorry for cross-posting but I felt that was best, since I have both screen-readers installed, although, Jaws is unlicensed.

Thanks for any help you can provide.



Thanks,
Jessica



help, can't get balloon about Win 10 back!

Jessica D
 

Hi,
I have a windows 7 laptop, with both Jaws 16, and NVDA 2018.1.1 on it
This morning, when I booted the system, I got a message in the corner of my screen, which said, "get windows 10" so I clicked it, and supposedly, reserved my copy.
note: at that time, I wasn't connected to wifi, but apparently it still worked.
I wish I could get that balloon back, now that I'm connected just to make sure.
Windows 7 is very slow.

What can I do?
Sorry for cross-posting but I felt that was best, since I have both screen-readers installed, although, Jaws is unlicensed.

Thanks for any help you can provide.



Thanks,
Jessica


Re: Email clients

 

By the way, for those using Thunderbird who wish to rearrange the ordering of columns shown and/or add or remove them, Gene NZ gives instructions on how to move them at:   http://accessibilitycentral.net/accessible%20email%20client%20mozilla%20thunderbird.html.   I have no experience with the add-on previously mentioned for doing this, and I would expect that it might make things much easier, but it's not essential.

If memory serves he also discusses the button that's at the far end of the list of column headers that is the column selection button.  I know I've helped someone add the read/unread status for a message or move it to the leftmost position in the columns at one point in the past.

--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Re: Email clients

Rui Fontes
 

It allows to import .EML messages.

If you are curious, please access the page and read...

Rui


Às 16:41 de 15/04/2018, Christopher-Mark Gilland escreveu:

What does that addon do exactly that I'd not get without it? I'm just curious.
Chris.
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rui Fontes
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 11:18 AM
To: Lista Internacional NVDA <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients
The Thunderbird addon can be found on:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/importexporttools/
Rui
Às 16:10 de 15/04/2018, Rui Fontes escreveu:
You have a Thunderbird addon to handle *.EML messages...

Rui

Às 15:12 de 15/04/2018, Damien Garwood escreveu:
Hi there,
Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using
Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:
* Check emails.
* Install Dropbox.
* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible
mess.
* Uninstall Dropbox.
* Attempt to check emails.
* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.
So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and
uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted
it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.
I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials
installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t
budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued,
seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant
for my rants folder.
I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the
best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now
could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its
shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using
that for the past four or five years.
This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now,
thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks
to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I
need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less
sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t
find a basic, accessible client that:
1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,
2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and
3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.
Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my
experiences:
1. OEClassic
Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about
OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try
that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main
window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be
unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And
that’s even before I touched any settings.
2. Pegasus
While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to,
that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader.
Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to
mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.
3. Thunderbird
Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a
mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it
was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while
it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of
navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs,
toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use).
Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use
of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a
message, and reading it.
Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I
see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail,
Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.
At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers.
Damien.
.


Re: Email clients

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Fair enough, and with you being sighted, I could see where that may be more a viable sollution.

 

Thanks for your response.

 

Chris.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 08:32 am, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

Regarding the TB calender, have you found it to be accessible with NVDA or any other screen reader like JAWS? Just curious.

I can't answer that question as I've not ever tried it out with a screen reader.   I would presume that it would be, though, just because it is a part of the Thunderbird suite and they've been pretty darned consistent with regard to accessibility.

I haven't used anything other than webmail for accessing my own e-mail messages for years now.  I have Thunderbird, Outlook 2010, and WLM 2012 installed so that I can test things out when I need to, mostly with regard to how each behaves with a screen reader, but I don't read my e-mail using any one of them on a consistent basis.
 
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Re: Email clients

 

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 08:32 am, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
Regarding the TB calender, have you found it to be accessible with NVDA or any other screen reader like JAWS? Just curious.
I can't answer that question as I've not ever tried it out with a screen reader.   I would presume that it would be, though, just because it is a part of the Thunderbird suite and they've been pretty darned consistent with regard to accessibility.

I haven't used anything other than webmail for accessing my own e-mail messages for years now.  I have Thunderbird, Outlook 2010, and WLM 2012 installed so that I can test things out when I need to, mostly with regard to how each behaves with a screen reader, but I don't read my e-mail using any one of them on a consistent basis.
 
--
Brian  Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1709, Build 16299  (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

     The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.  But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.

            Niels Bohr

 

 


Re: Email clients

Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>
 

Fair enough.

 

Chris.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Damien Garwood
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 11:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Hi Chris,

Honestly, I was pretty surprised by it too, but I can confirm that installing Dropbox does cause an issue. You’re quite right though, the issue isn’t actually a corrupted DLL.

Had I not thought that something had gone terribly wrong, and had I actually thought about performing a simple reboot, we probably wouldn’t be discussing this. I noticed, during the Dropbox installation, that Windows made the logoff/logon sounds, and it is after that, that the issue occurs.

Whatever is searching for DLL’s obviously couldn’t find it, even though, having previously found the path where the file should be located, it was still quite obviously there.

Strange, but true.

It’s a good thing though. I had no idea that WLM had been discontinued, and so had any necessary files somehow become corrupted in the future, I would likely be in a worse fix than I am now, and so it has caused me to try and eliminate that threat now, while I can.

Like I say. I’m not the biggest WLM fan, but that is because of ribbons. I hate them. So ribbonless menus would be heaven for me.

I did look in the view menu of Thunderbird, and couldn’t see any options to disable the clutter. As for the calendar, that installed automatically, it only gave me the option to disable/uninstall it the second time I started Thunderbird.

Cheers.
Damien.

 

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:26 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

I’m only gonna make one comment here. This isn’t in the least meant to be rude, but I don’t want to give any false impressions.

 

What makes you think aside from most likely incredibly bad timing, that Dropbox had anything to do with the corruption of that DLL? Last I knew, that was not a dll used in any! form nor shape whatsoever by Dropbox.

 

I really stand by my theory that this was incredibly terrible timing/coencidental!

 

Though I understand your take entirely on Thunderbird, and oh, by the way, totally 100% respect your opinion, I did want to make it also clear that most all the things you described as quote unquote, clutter, can be completely hidden/disabled through the view menu up in your standard, mind you, nonribbon menu bar.

 

Again, please don’t take my tone out of context here, as I can easily see how this message would come across maybe a bit rudely. I swear that isn’t my intentions. I’m simply just trying to make a point here. I do understand your predicament though. – I’m not sure I totally agree with it, but, I do understand it.

 

Have a great rest of your Sunday.

 

Chris.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Damien Garwood
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 11:12 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

Hi,

I would be interested to have the menu version as well, if you have it. I’ve never quite got my head around ribbons and so have never been able to really look into what it can do.

Just goes to show that what you learned in IT classes at school 20 years ago soon turns out to be completely pointless and thus a total waste of time and energy. But hey ho. Such is life. Everything must experience change, I guess.

Cheers.
Damien.

 

From: Gene

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:05 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Email clients

 

It may be possible that installing Drop Box caused this problem but it's unlikely.  You can try the following:

You can reinstall Windows Live Mail but you will need a full installer since Microsoft no longer provides one.  I don't know if you can just run the installer or if you have to remove Windows Live Mail first.  You can try either way you want.  I'll assume you are using the ribbon version and I'll send you a download link for that.  If you are using the older menu version, let us know. 

 

Instead of reinstalling the program, you may wish to run a system restore point from before the problem started first, and see if that corrects it. 

 

The download link is:

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 9:12 AM

Subject: [nvda] Email clients

 

Hi there,

 

Ten minutes in the life of seemingly old fashioned Damien, using Windows 7 and Windows Live Mail:

* Check emails.

* Install Dropbox.

* Realise that it’s turned into a pile of sludgy sluggish inaccessible mess.

* Uninstall Dropbox.

* Attempt to check emails.

* Receive a message that WLDCore.dll is missing.

So in that ten minutes, the only significant thing was to install and uninstall Dropbox, leading me to think that Dropbox somehow corrupted it. I'll save that rant for my rants folder.

I then nonchalantly uninstall, and launch the Windows Live Essentials installer expecting to be able to repair it. Of course, it doesn’t budge. Only then, do I find out that WLM has been discontinued, seemingly with nothing to replace it for Windows 7 users. Another rant for my rants folder.

 

I wouldn’t be particularly bothered. I wouldn't say that WLM is the best client I've ever used. In fact, every client I've used up to now could do with some accessibility tips. Even so, despite its shortcomings, WLM was the next best thing to OE and so I’ve been using that for the past four or five years.

This puts me in a real dilemma. I’m only able to write this email now, thanks to System Restore (A feature I swore I would never use thanks to its abilities to mess things up). As a result, I highly feel that I need to get a replacement client, hopefully something a little less sporadic in its development and life/support cycles. However, I can’t find a basic, accessible client that:

1. Is free of unnecessary outright bloated clutter,

2. Is fully accessible, responsive and comprehensible, and

3. Is able to import WLM folders and messages.

 

Here are the three that I have heard apparently work well, and my experiences:

 

1. OEClassic

Since I liked Outlook Express, and since I have heard a lot about OEClassic on this list, I thought it would make sense to first try that one. However I was disappointed. When tabbing through the main window, I had no idea what was what (the controls seemed to be unlabelled or labelled incorrectly), and some even said “Unknown”. And that’s even before I touched any settings.

 

2. Pegasus

While Pegasus was the first email client I was ever introduced to, that was nearly 20 years ago, and using a different screen reader. Similar to OEClassic, I found several “Unknown” controls, not to mention the old rich-text-based help system used in the Windows 98 days.

 

3. Thunderbird

Thunderbird was the only option of the three to allow me to set up a mailbox before use, and even that was a nightmare, simply because it was determined to persuade me to use encrypted channels. Also, while it does seem to be the most accessible of the three in terms of navigation, it also seems full of unnecessary clutter (different tabs, toolbars, calendars and news feeds, half of which I’ll never use). Also can’t get my head around the fact that its window makes heavy use of HTML – I’m used to seeing a good old listbox, pressing enter on a message, and reading it.

 

Finally, WLM seems to be absent from import options of all three. I see frequent mention of Outlook Express, Outlook, Windows Mail, Thunderbird...But not Windows Live.

At this point, I've no idea what my next step is.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.
Damien.