Date   

Re: The "Modern" NVDA Sounds

Ervin, Glenn
 

That is a handy tip for sure, although I have found it not difficult to download, you just open the menu and down arrow to "download".
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Wells
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 10:38 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The "Modern" NVDA Sounds

Changing the 0 to a 1 at the end of the link like this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cp1hgcs6ks60px3/NVDA%20new%20waves.zip?dl=1
makes the file easier to download. I got it. Thanks


On 5/22/2018 2:45 AM, Ralf Kefferpuetz wrote:
Here we go:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cp1hgcs6ks60px3/NVDA%20new%20waves.zip?dl=0

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Dienstag, 22. Mai 2018 08:19
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The "Modern" NVDA Sounds

There were a couple of variations on these at the time. Not sure if I still have them here, but if nobody else can lay their hands on them and shove them in dropbox, I'll have a poke about. Incidentally you cannot attach on this list, its either got to be a direct email or a dropbox link for ease of use.
Note that every time nvda gets updated it will overwrite the sounds, so you need to keep the new ones handy.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noah Carver via Groups.Io" <ntclists=aol.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 1:12 AM
Subject: [nvda] The "Modern" NVDA Sounds


Hi Folks,


Can anyone post the sounds that were in NVDA next snapshots back in 2017?
I much preferred these sounds to the ones packaged with NVDA, and would
like to replace them with the "modern" ones.


Any help would be appreciated.


Noah









Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Ervin, Glenn
 

Gene,

Your information is very old.

I have never had lack of sound on any computer I have booted it up to, and I have installed it on countless computers.

Orca is more like NVDA in usage than it is like JFW, so users here will like that.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 10:24 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

I haven't followed Linux to any extent but my impression is that it is for those who have a certain amount of technical knowledge because things aren't plug and play, as In Windows.  Further, my impression is that more setup has to be done of things like sound cards.  Also, I've seen comments that screen-reader development isn't as advanced as Windows screen-reader development. 

 

As I said, I haven't followed Linux to any extent, but before people spend time with it, I think a serious discussion of it's benefits and drawbacks is in order. 

 

I'd like to see some specifics such as, do quick navigation keys exist for Internet page navigation and how easy it is to set up a sound card and a scanner. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:58 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi Glen,

I am very interested: please, speak about linux and how accessible it
is... I have never used it and don't know many blind folks who use this
system... If you say it is so good, I wonder why so  few people use it I
mean I know quite a lot of blind folks and they have  Apple and Windows,
but Linumx is not so much used. Why is is so?

Tell me, i am curious because I would like to learn to use it in the future.

Thank you so much.

Best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/05/2018 16:21, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
> I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find that they like Linux.
> I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA.  It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.
> You can download an ISO image here:
> https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
> and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.
> I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
> It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.
> It is more secure than Windows for sure.
> It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.
> I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
> After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
> Glenn
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
> Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?
>
>
>
> The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.
>
>
>
> So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.
>
>
>
> Is that what the future holds for Windows users?
>
>
>
> Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.
>
> On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
> Hi Roger and others,
> I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
> The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:
>
> A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.
>
> When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).
>
> While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.
>
> To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.
>
> You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.
>
> But that's not all Sets can do and change:
>
>
>    *   In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
>    *   When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
>    *   You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.
>
> There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:
>
>
>    *   Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
>    *   Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
>    *   Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
>    *   Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.
>
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on?  Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
> That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter.  A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users.  and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems.  Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default.  As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.
>
> But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.  Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.
>
> I'll get it when I get a new computer.  I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io<mailto:bglists@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
> fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
> actually given  up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
> provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
> are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
> every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
> keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
> features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
> that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
> about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
> been let loose on the innards of Windows!
>   Hides behind sofa.  Brian
>
> bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>> Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
>> 10 is detected?  New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
>> addons
>> for their screen reader.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
>> make much difference.
>>
>> I must play a bit more.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
>> list account via Groups.Io
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>> I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the  version of win 10
>> essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
>> If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
>> isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
>> Brian
>>
>> bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
>> Sent via blueyonder.
>> Please address personal E-mail to:-
>> briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
>> in the display name field.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>
>>> Hi Jacob,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have three machines here, all on 1803.  None of them work at all
>>> well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
>>> unusable, as is Outlook.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well.  But I don't know why
>>> NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
>>> Kruger
>>> Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
>>> it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
>>> 1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
>>> hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
>>> state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
>>> more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
>>> explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
>>> 1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Stay well
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jacob Kruger
>>> Blind Biker
>>> Skype: BlindZA
>>> "Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
>>>
>>> On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
>>> For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Computer Room Services
>>>
>>> 77 Exeter Close
>>>
>>> Stevenage
>>>
>>> Hertfordshire
>>>
>>> SG1 4PW
>>>
>>> Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>>
>>> Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>>
>>> Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>>
>>> Email:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...<mailto:steve@...>
>>>
>>> Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



Re: The "Modern" NVDA Sounds

Richard Wells
 

Changing the 0 to a 1 at the end of the link like this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cp1hgcs6ks60px3/NVDA%20new%20waves.zip?dl=1 makes the file easier to download. I got it. Thanks

On 5/22/2018 2:45 AM, Ralf Kefferpuetz wrote:
Here we go:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cp1hgcs6ks60px3/NVDA%20new%20waves.zip?dl=0

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Dienstag, 22. Mai 2018 08:19
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] The "Modern" NVDA Sounds

There were a couple of variations on these at the time. Not sure if I still have them here, but if nobody else can lay their hands on them and shove them in dropbox, I'll have a poke about. Incidentally you cannot attach on this list, its either got to be a direct email or a dropbox link for ease of use.
Note that every time nvda gets updated it will overwrite the sounds, so you need to keep the new ones handy.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noah Carver via Groups.Io" <ntclists=aol.com@groups.io>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 1:12 AM
Subject: [nvda] The "Modern" NVDA Sounds


Hi Folks,


Can anyone post the sounds that were in NVDA next snapshots back in 2017?
I much preferred these sounds to the ones packaged with NVDA, and would
like to replace them with the "modern" ones.


Any help would be appreciated.


Noah








Re: Cloning drives

Sarah k Alawami
 

Would acronis work for that? I'm actually not sure if that's available on PC. Good luck.

On May 22, 2018 6:10:39 AM "juan gonzalez" <jgonzalezh614@...> wrote:

Good day all!

I am looking for software that works with NVDA to clone a hard disk to a smaller SSD drive. Free would be preferred but if there isn’t any than any works.


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi,

Microsoft cannot give up desktop interface for two reasons:

  1. Enterprise customers: there is a highly specialized version of Windows 10 Enterprise (which costs a lot) that does not use Microsoft Edge in many places. This is also the case for Windows Server Desktop Experience installations (for Server 2016 and Server 2019). These releases are provided to enterprise customers in order to make it more suitable for running mission critical software that should run well.
  2. Familiarity and uproar: Microsoft doesn’t want to repeat the same mistake from 2012 when visible Start button was removed. In fact, in recent Windows Insider Preview builds (Redstone 5), a tool tip was added to Start button.

 

As for Edge becoming the gateway to app interfaces: not exactly, I think. Although Edge could serve as an app interface container, support for this will ultimately come from apps themselves, hence ability to turn off Sets in Insider Preview builds (and let me repeat: Sets isn’t part of Version 1803 at all). Certain apps are known for not supporting Sets, and even some NVDA user interface windows does not work with this.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 3:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?

 

The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.

 

So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.

 

Is that what the future holds for Windows users?

 

Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

 

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Roger and others,

I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)…

The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

 

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you’ll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

 

When you run an app with Sets on, you’ll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

 

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new “tab”. This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

 

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

 

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you’re using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

 

But that’s not all Sets can do and change:

 

  • In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
  • When you pres Alt+Tab, you’ll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
  • You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

 

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:

 

  • Tabbed File Explorer: you’ll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
  • Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
  • Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
  • Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you’ll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA’s own Python Console and the other one could be an app you’re actively testing.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on?  Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility? 

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:

That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter.  A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users.  and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems.  Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default.  As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

 

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.  Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

 

I'll get it when I get a new computer.  I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given  up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
 Hides behind sofa.  Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


> Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
> 10 is detected?  New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
> addons
> for their screen reader.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
> Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> Hi,
>
> I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
> make much difference.
>
> I must play a bit more.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
> list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the  version of win 10
> essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
> If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
> isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>> Hi Jacob,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have three machines here, all on 1803.  None of them work at all
>> well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
>> unusable, as is Outlook.
>>
>>
>>
>> At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well.  But I don't know why
>> NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jacob
>> Kruger
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
>> it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
>> 1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
>> hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
>> state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
>> more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
>> explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
>> 1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stay well
>>
>>
>>
>> Jacob Kruger
>> Blind Biker
>> Skype: BlindZA
>> "Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
>>
>> On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
>> For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.
>>
>>
>>
>> JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Computer Room Services
>>
>> 77 Exeter Close
>>
>> Stevenage
>>
>> Hertfordshire
>>
>> SG1 4PW
>>
>> Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>
>> Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>
>> Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>
>> Email:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>>
>> Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



 

 


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Antony Stone
 

It probably isn't possible to install Vocalizer voices under Linux, but there
are other voices available which can't be installed under Windows, so if
you're considering Linux with speech output, it's important to find out what is
available on Linux rather than just asking "can I do the same thing under
Linux as I'm used to with Windows?"

The voices I'm thinking of specifically are Festival with Mbrola, for example.
There are probably others I can't think of just for the time being.


Antony.

On Tuesday 22 May 2018 at 17:25:58, Rui Fontes wrote:

As far as I know, it is not possible.

Rui

Às 16:09 de 22/05/2018, Angela Delicata escreveu:
Is it also possible to install Vocalizer voices on Linux?

Thank you for any possible reply, this OS has always aroused my
curiousity and I wish I could learn one day.

Il 22/05/2018 16:58, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
It is called Voxin, and it is at:
https://voxin.oralux.net/
I can give you the terminal commands to get it installed, but like
other settings, you will have to reinstall it if you are running from
a live DVD, but if you install it on USB with a persistence file, it
will stay.
Eventually you will probably put Linux on an old computer or duel-boot
it with your Windows.
If you download the i386 version, Ubuntu will run well on old machines.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please? I know
you have to buy it, and I'm happy to do it, but I really don't like
ESpeak.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin,
Glenn Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Steve,
Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux
as well.
Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want
to tab through the settings for speed and voices.
I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier
keys and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I
don't like hearing when I press those keys.
Don't change the voice from Default in the voice page without
installing a new speech engine first.
If you burn it to DVD, the changes won't survive a reboot.
If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your
changes.
It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.
That is how I usually install packages and get updates.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but
does that Iso download have Orca built into it then? Can I really
press Windows+S to get speech going on this distro? If so, it may
tempt me to try it.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin,
Glenn Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find
that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It
comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is
all free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much
it is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy
& paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after
it starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you
can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and
you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without
installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Kenny Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with
the conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the
web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks
(Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more
minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to
Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that
occurs in Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to
unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the
conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're
taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface
this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development.
Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature
availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related
activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage
experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does
support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major
way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new
screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will
be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs.
The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge
container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain
apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T
to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge)
consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana
search box that lets you search for things such as another app to
open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to
open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app
screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be
listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or
Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided
that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key.
To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in
one go, press Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser
that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs
are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you
would add the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will
list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge
tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps
running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching
between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle
between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set
will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in
another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook,
Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new
Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders
and drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an
app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a
collection of Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a
workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results
from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python
Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own
Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively
testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger
Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and
how do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does
it help with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough
to matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until
they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by
sighted users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted
people wouldn't have any of those problems. Also, as in the new
feature of sets, they may not be on by default. As I recall what I
read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough
blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.
Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems
that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has
nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences
time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that
is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can
simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7.
They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of
windows every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows
7 into the keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more
careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows
10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their
messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype
have been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting
'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically
if Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem
to make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting
'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for
me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be
reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me
now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve




Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>
steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi all,
A few things:
1. Vocalizer: depends on what Nuance would say regarding this.
2. Linux accessibility: technically, this depends on distributions, their
age, and how well they handle accessibility calls. Linux does have
accessibility API.
3. Security: it may appear to be more secure due to perceived smaller market
share. However, as Spector and Meltdown demonstrates, Linux is prone to
security bugs as well, especially if hardware security is involved. Although
Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux kernel was quoted as saying that
security bugs are bugs, Linux kernel developers and distribution vendors
(such as Canonical, the maker of Ubuntu distribution) takes security
seriously.
4. Market share: on the desktop front, Linux's market share is low. On
mobile, server and IoT (internet of things) front, Linux dominates. Android
is a leader in smartphone ecosystem at the moment, and that is powered by
Linux kernel. Many web servers and other cloud data centers use servers
powered by Linux. Internet of Things devices, firmware for many routers and
so on are built on top of Linux. The thing is, some of them are using
outdated Linux kernel versions, which opens up security issues if not tuned
and updated correctly.
5. You can run command-line Linux distributions on Windows: this is powered
by Windows Subsystem for Linux. At the moment there were reports of limited
success with GUI programs.
For more info on Linux, I recommend joining a list such as those for Orca,
Linux Users Groups and so on.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 8:10 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Is it also possible to install Vocalizer voices on Linux?

Thank you for any possible reply, this OS has always  aroused  my curiousity
and I wish I could learn one day.



Il 22/05/2018 16:58, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
It is called Voxin, and it is at:
https://voxin.oralux.net/
I can give you the terminal commands to get it installed, but like other
settings, you will have to reinstall it if you are running from a live DVD,
but if you install it on USB with a persistence file, it will stay.
Eventually you will probably put Linux on an old computer or duel-boot it
with your Windows.
If you download the i386 version, Ubuntu will run well on old machines.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please? I know you
have to buy it, and I'm happy to do it, but I really don't like ESpeak.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Steve,
Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux as
well.
Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want to
tab through the settings for speed and voices.
I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier keys
and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I don't like
hearing when I press those keys.
Don't change the voice from Default in the voice page without installing a
new speech engine first.
If you burn it to DVD, the changes won't survive a reboot.
If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your
changes.
It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.
That is how I usually install packages and get updates.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but does
that Iso download have Orca built into it then? Can I really press
Windows+S to get speech going on this distro? If so, it may tempt me to try
it.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find
that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It
comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all
free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is
like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy &
paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it
starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can
use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you
only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the
conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web,
but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word
Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing
Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar.
Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in
Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss
open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional
Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed
approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development.
Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability
will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related
activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage
experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support
tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be
able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen
controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown,
and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app
content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to
what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version
1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to
open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of
typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets
you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for
things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge
new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the
just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or
Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that
you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close
an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press
Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser
that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are
nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add
the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will
list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs
and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running
inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps.
You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows
instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in
another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook,
Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and
drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app
tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of
Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a
workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from
Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python
Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python
Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how
do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help
with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to
matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they
learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted
users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't
have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may
not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind
users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the
problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with
not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies
even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that is
working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can
simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7.
They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have
new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their
messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if
Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian
Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be
reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me
now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>
steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk





















Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Rui Fontes
 

As far as I know, it is not possible.

Rui


Às 16:09 de 22/05/2018, Angela Delicata escreveu:

Is it also possible to install Vocalizer voices on Linux?
Thank you for any possible reply, this OS has always  aroused  my curiousity and I wish I could learn one day.
Il 22/05/2018 16:58, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
It is called Voxin, and it is at:
https://voxin.oralux.net/
I can give you the terminal commands to get it installed, but like other settings, you will have to reinstall it if you are running from a live DVD, but if you install it on USB with a persistence file, it will stay.
Eventually you will probably put Linux on an old computer or duel-boot it with your Windows.
If you download the i386 version, Ubuntu will run well on old machines.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please?  I know you have to buy it, and I'm happy to do it, but I really don't like ESpeak.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Steve,
Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux as well.
Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want to tab through the settings for speed and voices.
I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier keys and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I don't like hearing when I press those keys.
Don't change the voice from Default in the voice page without installing a new speech engine first.
If you burn it to DVD, the changes won't survive a reboot.
If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your changes.
It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.
That is how I usually install packages and get updates.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but does that Iso download have Orca built into it then?  Can I really press Windows+S to get speech going on this distro?  If so, it may tempt me to try it.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA.  It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


   *   In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
   *   When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
   *   You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


   *   Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
   *   Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
   *   Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
   *   Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on?  Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter.  A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users.  and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems.  Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default.  As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer.  I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given  up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
  Hides behind sofa.  Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
10 is detected?  New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the  version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803.  None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well.  But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email:  <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk> steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk





















Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Gene
 

I haven't followed Linux to any extent but my impression is that it is for those who have a certain amount of technical knowledge because things aren't plug and play, as In Windows.  Further, my impression is that more setup has to be done of things like sound cards.  Also, I've seen comments that screen-reader development isn't as advanced as Windows screen-reader development. 
 
As I said, I haven't followed Linux to any extent, but before people spend time with it, I think a serious discussion of it's benefits and drawbacks is in order. 
 
I'd like to see some specifics such as, do quick navigation keys exist for Internet page navigation and how easy it is to set up a sound card and a scanner. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glen,

I am very interested: please, speak about linux and how accessible it
is... I have never used it and don't know many blind folks who use this
system... If you say it is so good, I wonder why so  few people use it I
mean I know quite a lot of blind folks and they have  Apple and Windows,
but Linumx is not so much used. Why is is so?

Tell me, i am curious because I would like to learn to use it in the future.

Thank you so much.

Best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/05/2018 16:21, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
> I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find that they like Linux.
> I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA.  It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.
> You can download an ISO image here:
> https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
> and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.
> I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
> It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.
> It is more secure than Windows for sure.
> It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.
> I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
> After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
> Glenn
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
> Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?
>
>
>
> The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.
>
>
>
> So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.
>
>
>
> Is that what the future holds for Windows users?
>
>
>
> Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.
>
> On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
> Hi Roger and others,
> I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
> The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:
>
> A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.
>
> When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).
>
> While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.
>
> To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.
>
> You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.
>
> But that's not all Sets can do and change:
>
>
>    *   In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
>    *   When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
>    *   You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.
>
> There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:
>
>
>    *   Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
>    *   Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
>    *   Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
>    *   Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.
>
> Cheers,
> Joseph
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on?  Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
> That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter.  A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users.  and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems.  Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default.  As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.
>
> But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.  Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.
>
> I'll get it when I get a new computer.  I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io<mailto:bglists@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
> fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
> actually given  up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
> provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
> are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
> every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
> keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
> features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
> that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
> about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
> been let loose on the innards of Windows!
>   Hides behind sofa.  Brian
>
> bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>> Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
>> 10 is detected?  New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
>> addons
>> for their screen reader.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
>> make much difference.
>>
>> I must play a bit more.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
>> list account via Groups.Io
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>> I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the  version of win 10
>> essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
>> If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
>> isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
>> Brian
>>
>> bglists@...<mailto:bglists@...>
>> Sent via blueyonder.
>> Please address personal E-mail to:-
>> briang1@...<mailto:briang1@...>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
>> in the display name field.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...<mailto:steve@...>>
>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>
>>> Hi Jacob,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have three machines here, all on 1803.  None of them work at all
>>> well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
>>> unusable, as is Outlook.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well.  But I don't know why
>>> NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
>>> Kruger
>>> Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
>>> it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
>>> 1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
>>> hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
>>> state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
>>> more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
>>> explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
>>> 1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Stay well
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jacob Kruger
>>> Blind Biker
>>> Skype: BlindZA
>>> "Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
>>>
>>> On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
>>> For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Any thoughts?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Computer Room Services
>>>
>>> 77 Exeter Close
>>>
>>> Stevenage
>>>
>>> Hertfordshire
>>>
>>> SG1 4PW
>>>
>>> Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>>
>>> Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>>
>>> Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>>
>>> Email:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...<mailto:steve@...>
>>>
>>> Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Ervin, Glenn
 

I could not comment on other voices, I know that there are others, like Festival and some more that I don't recall.
I would guess you can contact the makers of a voice and see if they have a Linux version.
HTH.
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 10:10 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Is it also possible to install Vocalizer voices on Linux?

Thank you for any possible reply, this OS has always  aroused  my
curiousity and I wish I could learn one day.



Il 22/05/2018 16:58, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
It is called Voxin, and it is at:
https://voxin.oralux.net/
I can give you the terminal commands to get it installed, but like other settings, you will have to reinstall it if you are running from a live DVD, but if you install it on USB with a persistence file, it will stay.
Eventually you will probably put Linux on an old computer or duel-boot it with your Windows.
If you download the i386 version, Ubuntu will run well on old machines.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please? I know you have to buy it, and I'm happy to do it, but I really don't like ESpeak.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Steve,
Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux as well.
Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want to tab through the settings for speed and voices.
I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier keys and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I don't like hearing when I press those keys.
Don't change the voice from Default in the voice page without installing a new speech engine first.
If you burn it to DVD, the changes won't survive a reboot.
If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your changes.
It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.
That is how I usually install packages and get updates.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but does that Iso download have Orca built into it then? Can I really press Windows+S to get speech going on this distro? If so, it may tempt me to try it.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk> steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk





















Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Angela Delicata
 

Thank you for your reply: I think nvda is getting more and more closer to Jaws and I would dare to say  it is very very good now... I am using it full time and don't feel the need for Jws at all...

I don't no with specific software, but i know friends of mine who use it at workplace also, nvda I mean.

Il 22/05/2018 17:07, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
Hi Angela,
I think Linux and Apple both suffer the loss to Microsoft.
Just like with the old video tapes, one has to win out, and it may not be the best one.
I think that Linux is superior to Windows in many ways, although like NVDA, Orca is not as robust as JFW.
But most of the software we use in Linux is free.
I think that many of us who are getting Mom & Dad or Grandma and Grandpa their first computer would do well to get them a computer with Ubuntu, especially if they are not visually impaired.
They can more safely browse the web and still do their eMail and play those card games.
Or I think that if they had an XP machine or will soon need to replace their Windows 7 machine, you can install Ubuntu on that old computer alongside of their old windows and they will be happy and more secure.
Glenn


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:59 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glen,

I am very interested: please, speak about linux and how accessible it
is... I have never used it and don't know many blind folks who use this
system... If you say it is so good, I wonder why so  few people use it I
mean I know quite a lot of blind folks and they have  Apple and Windows,
but Linumx is not so much used. Why is is so?

Tell me, i am curious because I would like to learn to use it in the future.

Thank you so much.

Best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/05/2018 16:21, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk> steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk

























Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Angela Delicata
 

Is it also possible to install Vocalizer voices on Linux?

Thank you for any possible reply, this OS has always  aroused  my curiousity and I wish I could learn one day.

Il 22/05/2018 16:58, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
It is called Voxin, and it is at:
https://voxin.oralux.net/
I can give you the terminal commands to get it installed, but like other settings, you will have to reinstall it if you are running from a live DVD, but if you install it on USB with a persistence file, it will stay.
Eventually you will probably put Linux on an old computer or duel-boot it with your Windows.
If you download the i386 version, Ubuntu will run well on old machines.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please? I know you have to buy it, and I'm happy to do it, but I really don't like ESpeak.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Steve,
Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux as well.
Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want to tab through the settings for speed and voices.
I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier keys and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I don't like hearing when I press those keys.
Don't change the voice from Default in the voice page without installing a new speech engine first.
If you burn it to DVD, the changes won't survive a reboot.
If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your changes.
It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.
That is how I usually install packages and get updates.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but does that Iso download have Orca built into it then? Can I really press Windows+S to get speech going on this distro? If so, it may tempt me to try it.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk> steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk





















Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Ervin, Glenn
 

Hi Angela,
I think Linux and Apple both suffer the loss to Microsoft.
Just like with the old video tapes, one has to win out, and it may not be the best one.
I think that Linux is superior to Windows in many ways, although like NVDA, Orca is not as robust as JFW.
But most of the software we use in Linux is free.
I think that many of us who are getting Mom & Dad or Grandma and Grandpa their first computer would do well to get them a computer with Ubuntu, especially if they are not visually impaired.
They can more safely browse the web and still do their eMail and play those card games.
Or I think that if they had an XP machine or will soon need to replace their Windows 7 machine, you can install Ubuntu on that old computer alongside of their old windows and they will be happy and more secure.
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:59 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glen,

I am very interested: please, speak about linux and how accessible it
is... I have never used it and don't know many blind folks who use this
system... If you say it is so good, I wonder why so  few people use it I
mean I know quite a lot of blind folks and they have  Apple and Windows,
but Linumx is not so much used. Why is is so?

Tell me, i am curious because I would like to learn to use it in the future.

Thank you so much.

Best.

Angela from Italy


Il 22/05/2018 16:21, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk> steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
























Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Ervin, Glenn
 

It is called Voxin, and it is at:

https://voxin.oralux.net/

I can give you the terminal commands to get it installed, but like other settings, you will have to reinstall it if you are running from a live DVD, but if you install it on USB with a persistence file, it will stay.

Eventually you will probably put Linux on an old computer or duel-boot it with your Windows.

If you download the i386 version, Ubuntu will run well on old machines.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi Glenn,

 

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please?  I know you have to buy it, and I’m happy to do it, but I really don’t like ESpeak.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi Steve,

Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux as well.

Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want to tab through the settings for speed and voices.

I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier keys and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I don’t like hearing when I press those keys.

Don’t change the voice from Default in the voice page without installing a new speech engine first.

If you burn it to DVD, the changes won’t survive a reboot.

If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your changes.

It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.

That is how I usually install packages and get updates.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi Glenn,

 

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but does that Iso download have Orca built into it then?  Can I really press Windows+S to get speech going on this distro?  If so, it may tempt me to try it.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

I think that many who don’t like Microsoft’s changes will try and find that they like Linux.

I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA.  It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.

You can download an ISO image here:

https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html

and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.

I’d say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.

It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.

It is more secure than Windows for sure.

It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.

I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won’t boot.

After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?

 

The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.

 

So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.

 

Is that what the future holds for Windows users?

 

Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

 

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Roger and others,

I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)…

The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

 

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you’ll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

 

When you run an app with Sets on, you’ll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

 

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new “tab”. This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

 

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

 

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you’re using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

 

But that’s not all Sets can do and change:

 

  • In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
  • When you pres Alt+Tab, you’ll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
  • You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

 

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:

 

  • Tabbed File Explorer: you’ll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
  • Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
  • Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
  • Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you’ll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA’s own Python Console and the other one could be an app you’re actively testing.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on?  Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility? 

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:

That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter.  A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users.  and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems.  Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default.  As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

 

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.  Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

 

I'll get it when I get a new computer.  I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given  up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
 Hides behind sofa.  Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


> Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
> 10 is detected?  New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
> addons
> for their screen reader.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
> Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> Hi,
>
> I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
> make much difference.
>
> I must play a bit more.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
> list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the  version of win 10
> essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
> If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
> isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>> Hi Jacob,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have three machines here, all on 1803.  None of them work at all
>> well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
>> unusable, as is Outlook.
>>
>>
>>
>> At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well.  But I don't know why
>> NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jacob
>> Kruger
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
>> it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
>> 1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
>> hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
>> state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
>> more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
>> explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
>> 1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stay well
>>
>>
>>
>> Jacob Kruger
>> Blind Biker
>> Skype: BlindZA
>> "Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
>>
>> On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
>> For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.
>>
>>
>>
>> JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Computer Room Services
>>
>> 77 Exeter Close
>>
>> Stevenage
>>
>> Hertfordshire
>>
>> SG1 4PW
>>
>> Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>
>> Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>
>> Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>
>> Email:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>>
>> Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

 

 


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Angela Delicata
 

Hi Glen,

I am very interested: please, speak about linux and how accessible it is... I have never used it and don't know many blind folks who use this system... If you say it is so good, I wonder why so  few people use it I mean I know quite a lot of blind folks and they have  Apple and Windows, but Linumx is not so much used. Why is is so?

Tell me, i am curious because I would like to learn to use it in the future.

Thank you so much.

Best.

Angela from Italy

Il 22/05/2018 16:21, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons
for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win 10
essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:briang1@blueyonder.co.uk>, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk> steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
























Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Glenn,

 

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please?  I know you have to buy it, and I’m happy to do it, but I really don’t like ESpeak.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi Steve,

Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux as well.

Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want to tab through the settings for speed and voices.

I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier keys and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I don’t like hearing when I press those keys.

Don’t change the voice from Default in the voice page without installing a new speech engine first.

If you burn it to DVD, the changes won’t survive a reboot.

If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your changes.

It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.

That is how I usually install packages and get updates.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi Glenn,

 

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but does that Iso download have Orca built into it then?  Can I really press Windows+S to get speech going on this distro?  If so, it may tempt me to try it.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

I think that many who don’t like Microsoft’s changes will try and find that they like Linux.

I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA.  It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.

You can download an ISO image here:

https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html

and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.

I’d say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.

It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.

It is more secure than Windows for sure.

It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.

I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won’t boot.

After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?

 

The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.

 

So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.

 

Is that what the future holds for Windows users?

 

Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

 

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Roger and others,

I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)…

The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

 

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you’ll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

 

When you run an app with Sets on, you’ll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

 

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new “tab”. This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

 

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

 

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you’re using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

 

But that’s not all Sets can do and change:

 

  • In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
  • When you pres Alt+Tab, you’ll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
  • You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

 

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:

 

  • Tabbed File Explorer: you’ll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
  • Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
  • Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
  • Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you’ll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA’s own Python Console and the other one could be an app you’re actively testing.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on?  Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility? 

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:

That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter.  A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users.  and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems.  Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default.  As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

 

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.  Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

 

I'll get it when I get a new computer.  I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given  up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
 Hides behind sofa.  Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


> Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
> 10 is detected?  New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
> addons
> for their screen reader.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
> Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> Hi,
>
> I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
> make much difference.
>
> I must play a bit more.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
> list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the  version of win 10
> essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
> If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
> isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>> Hi Jacob,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have three machines here, all on 1803.  None of them work at all
>> well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
>> unusable, as is Outlook.
>>
>>
>>
>> At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well.  But I don't know why
>> NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jacob
>> Kruger
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
>> it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
>> 1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
>> hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
>> state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
>> more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
>> explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
>> 1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stay well
>>
>>
>>
>> Jacob Kruger
>> Blind Biker
>> Skype: BlindZA
>> "Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
>>
>> On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
>> For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.
>>
>>
>>
>> JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Computer Room Services
>>
>> 77 Exeter Close
>>
>> Stevenage
>>
>> Hertfordshire
>>
>> SG1 4PW
>>
>> Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>
>> Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>
>> Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>
>> Email:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>>
>> Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

 

 


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Ervin, Glenn
 

Hi Steve,

Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux as well.

Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want to tab through the settings for speed and voices.

I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier keys and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I don’t like hearing when I press those keys.

Don’t change the voice from Default in the voice page without installing a new speech engine first.

If you burn it to DVD, the changes won’t survive a reboot.

If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your changes.

It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.

That is how I usually install packages and get updates.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Hi Glenn,

 

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but does that Iso download have Orca built into it then?  Can I really press Windows+S to get speech going on this distro?  If so, it may tempt me to try it.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

I think that many who don’t like Microsoft’s changes will try and find that they like Linux.

I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA.  It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.

You can download an ISO image here:

https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html

and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.

I’d say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.

It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.

It is more secure than Windows for sure.

It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.

I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won’t boot.

After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?

 

The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.

 

So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.

 

Is that what the future holds for Windows users?

 

Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

 

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Roger and others,

I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)…

The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

 

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you’ll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

 

When you run an app with Sets on, you’ll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

 

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new “tab”. This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

 

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

 

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you’re using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

 

But that’s not all Sets can do and change:

 

  • In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
  • When you pres Alt+Tab, you’ll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
  • You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

 

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:

 

  • Tabbed File Explorer: you’ll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
  • Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
  • Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
  • Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you’ll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA’s own Python Console and the other one could be an app you’re actively testing.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on?  Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility? 

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:

That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter.  A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users.  and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems.  Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default.  As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

 

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.  Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

 

I'll get it when I get a new computer.  I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given  up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
 Hides behind sofa.  Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


> Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
> 10 is detected?  New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
> addons
> for their screen reader.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
> Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> Hi,
>
> I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
> make much difference.
>
> I must play a bit more.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
> list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the  version of win 10
> essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
> If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
> isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>> Hi Jacob,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have three machines here, all on 1803.  None of them work at all
>> well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
>> unusable, as is Outlook.
>>
>>
>>
>> At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well.  But I don't know why
>> NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jacob
>> Kruger
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
>> it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
>> 1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
>> hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
>> state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
>> more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
>> explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
>> 1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stay well
>>
>>
>>
>> Jacob Kruger
>> Blind Biker
>> Skype: BlindZA
>> "Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
>>
>> On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
>> For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.
>>
>>
>>
>> JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Computer Room Services
>>
>> 77 Exeter Close
>>
>> Stevenage
>>
>> Hertfordshire
>>
>> SG1 4PW
>>
>> Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>
>> Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>
>> Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>
>> Email:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>>
>> Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

 

 


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Glenn,

 

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but does that Iso download have Orca built into it then?  Can I really press Windows+S to get speech going on this distro?  If so, it may tempt me to try it.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

I think that many who don’t like Microsoft’s changes will try and find that they like Linux.

I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA.  It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.

You can download an ISO image here:

https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html

and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.

I’d say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.

It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.

It is more secure than Windows for sure.

It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.

I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won’t boot.

After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?

 

The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.

 

So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.

 

Is that what the future holds for Windows users?

 

Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

 

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Roger and others,

I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)…

The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

 

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you’ll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

 

When you run an app with Sets on, you’ll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

 

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new “tab”. This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

 

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

 

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you’re using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

 

But that’s not all Sets can do and change:

 

  • In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
  • When you pres Alt+Tab, you’ll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
  • You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

 

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:

 

  • Tabbed File Explorer: you’ll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
  • Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
  • Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
  • Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you’ll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA’s own Python Console and the other one could be an app you’re actively testing.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on?  Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility? 

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:

That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter.  A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users.  and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems.  Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default.  As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

 

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.  Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

 

I'll get it when I get a new computer.  I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given  up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
 Hides behind sofa.  Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


> Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
> 10 is detected?  New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
> addons
> for their screen reader.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
> Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> Hi,
>
> I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
> make much difference.
>
> I must play a bit more.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
> list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the  version of win 10
> essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
> If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
> isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>> Hi Jacob,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have three machines here, all on 1803.  None of them work at all
>> well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
>> unusable, as is Outlook.
>>
>>
>>
>> At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well.  But I don't know why
>> NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jacob
>> Kruger
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
>> it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
>> 1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
>> hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
>> state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
>> more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
>> explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
>> 1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stay well
>>
>>
>>
>> Jacob Kruger
>> Blind Biker
>> Skype: BlindZA
>> "Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
>>
>> On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
>> For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.
>>
>>
>>
>> JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Computer Room Services
>>
>> 77 Exeter Close
>>
>> Stevenage
>>
>> Hertfordshire
>>
>> SG1 4PW
>>
>> Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>
>> Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>
>> Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>
>> Email:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>>
>> Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


 

 


Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Ervin, Glenn
 

I think that many who don’t like Microsoft’s changes will try and find that they like Linux.

I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA.  It comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all free.

You can download an ISO image here:

https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html

and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much it is like Windows.

I’d say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.

It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy & paste, to mention a few.

It is more secure than Windows for sure.

It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after it starts to bring up Orca.

I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you can use it to retrieve your data if Windows won’t boot.

After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and you only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?

 

The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.

 

So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.

 

Is that what the future holds for Windows users?

 

Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

 

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Roger and others,

I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)…

The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

 

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you’ll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

 

When you run an app with Sets on, you’ll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

 

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new “tab”. This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

 

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

 

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you’re using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

 

But that’s not all Sets can do and change:

 

  • In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
  • When you pres Alt+Tab, you’ll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
  • You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

 

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:

 

  • Tabbed File Explorer: you’ll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
  • Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
  • Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
  • Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you’ll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA’s own Python Console and the other one could be an app you’re actively testing.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on?  Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility? 

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:

That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter.  A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users.  and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems.  Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default.  As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

 

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.  Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

 

I'll get it when I get a new computer.  I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given  up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
 Hides behind sofa.  Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


> Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
> 10 is detected?  New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
> addons
> for their screen reader.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
> Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> Hi,
>
> I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
> make much difference.
>
> I must play a bit more.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
> list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the  version of win 10
> essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
> If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
> isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>> Hi Jacob,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have three machines here, all on 1803.  None of them work at all
>> well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
>> unusable, as is Outlook.
>>
>>
>>
>> At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well.  But I don't know why
>> NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jacob
>> Kruger
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
>> it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
>> 1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
>> hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
>> state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
>> more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
>> explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
>> 1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stay well
>>
>>
>>
>> Jacob Kruger
>> Blind Biker
>> Skype: BlindZA
>> "Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
>>
>> On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
>> For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.
>>
>>
>>
>> JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Computer Room Services
>>
>> 77 Exeter Close
>>
>> Stevenage
>>
>> Hertfordshire
>>
>> SG1 4PW
>>
>> Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>
>> Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>
>> Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>
>> Email:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>>
>> Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



 

 


Cloning drives

juan gonzalez <jgonzalezh614@...>
 

Good day all!

I am looking for software that works with NVDA to clone a hard disk to a smaller SSD drive. Free would be preferred but if there isn’t any than any works.