On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 09:39 AM, Gene wrote:

I consider it highly inappropriate to spread factually incorrect
information on a public list in this way.  There are users at a wide
variety of knowledge on the list.

Gene, not that I don't agree with you in principle, but by now you should
know very well that this sort of childish behavior is not going away.

One of the things we can do on lists like this is to present reasoned and
factual counterpoint to these rants, and to teach "newbies" how to think
critically about what's being said.   The internet as a whole is awash with
baseless garbage and two of the most valuable skills we can teach are to
"consider the source" and "do your homework/due diligence."

The logical complement to the old saying, "If it seems to good to be true it
probably isn't," is, "If it seems too bad to be true, it probably isn't,
either."   Companies, products, software, etc., don't develop huge user
bases (relative to markets they're serving) if they really are substandard.
The competition is just too intense and widespread.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

   A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for
all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

Thank you, Tyler, both for your agreement and for your suggestions.
While I don't deliberately insult people for no reason, I am against
political correctness in general. If people wrote bad things about a
program that I liked, I would simply ignore it. I'm not its writer,
but if I were, I would ask what they didn't like about it so that we
could discuss it in a civil manner.

I will try Team Talk again. I don't mind if it's used widely in the
mainstream. I need it to contact my Greek teacher for lessons and my
best friend so that we can voice chat. If others wish to join me, of
course, they can do so, though of course, it's different from a
dedicated program like Skype, where you have friends that you can add,
etc. But maybe, some members of various Facebook groups might be
interested in meeting there! *smile*

On 24/07/2018, Tyler Wood <tcwood12@...> wrote:

I have to agree with Eleni here.


2018 seems to be the year to be overly offended by everything. Instead
of talking about the original subject we're now suddenly talking about a
name for a company. Really, who cares. People shouldn't need their hand
held at every turn on a mailing list.


Regardless, Eleni, good luck in finding alternatives that work as nice
as skype. Team talk is nice, yes, but not many folks in the mainstream
use it. Team speak has its own set of frustrating issues - one of which
is accessing context menus with NVDA without restarting it. Discord is
slowly, oh so slowly, improving. Google hangouts is...kind of? okay, but
I forget what I didn't like about it as it has been a while, so perhaps
things have changed.


Sorry I couldn't be more help



On 24-Jul-2018 1:42 AM, Gene wrote:

I consider this to be little short of bashing, microslop, mocrosoft?
This is a public list and insulting companies may offend or bother
people who like products of a company.
If more people did this on list, the level of the list would be
degraded and it's nature would change from a helping and discussion
list to a help, discussion, and product bashing list.
If this practice spread, peoples feelings might be hurt.  I don't know
who is on the list now, but in the past someone was on the list that
helped develop accessibility for Open Office and someone who works on
E-Speak was a member.  If you start this sort of thing and it spreads,
it might have effects not considered by the original practitioner.
And, as you saw from comments earlier from various people, the
disparagement isn't necessarily accurate.  many people presented
information about Microsoft that contradicted it.
Would you like seeing your favorite program disparaged in this way
even if the comments weren't directed toward you?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Eleni Vamvakari <mailto:elvam2167@...>
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 24, 2018 1:07 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Accessible voice and text chat

People need to stop being offended by everything, especially comments
not directed toward them.  Who cares whether someone uses a
disparaging name of a company?  It's not a personal insult or attack.

In any case, I am of the opinion that, if things work well, they
should be improved, not changed entirely.  I liked earlier versions of
Skype.  Then came 7, which was annoying in several ways (I cannot
think of them at the moment, as I haven't used the older versions of
Skype since they discontinued them).  Now, there is a completely new
interface.  I have tried it remotely on my friend's computer (with his
permission, of course) but we were in a call, so I didn't get the full
effect of going through contacts, making and answering a call, etc.
In some ways, it's quicker than 7, and things are immediately present,
instead of being in a list and under menus.  But some things seemed to
be missing.  I just don't see the need to needlessly complicate
things, and even if this works, I am still interested in alternatives
with a simpler and more traditional interface.

On 23/07/2018, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...
<mailto:sm.everiss@...>> wrote:

I don't see how it would either.

Except dolphin maybe, their brouser access is well  not there only old
versions of internet explorer work with their stuff.

They say they are working on chrome but catch up they are doing,
firefox, chrome, waterfox, most of those we allready have everywhere

else.

On 7/24/2018 8:54 AM, Lino Morales wrote:

Good point Tyler. And this goes back to the VFO brewhaha we had on
here
last week. I don’t see how Narrator would disrupt open source screen
readers like NVDA as his Erickness stated in that podcast. As I

always say

viva la NVDA!



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for

Windows

10



________________________________
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

<nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> on behalf of Tyler
Wood

<tcwood12@... <mailto:tcwood12@...>>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 4:49:46 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Accessible voice and text chat

A few years ago I might have agreed with you on microsoft playing
catch
up.


These days, as you say, Microsoft is everywhere. Seeing AI is simply a
revolutionary tool on the smartphone and is not made by apple.
Similarly, narrator is quickly becoming a replacement for your

every day

screen reader. Keep in mind that the NFB went at apple pretty hard
back
in the day, too, so it isn't as though their bringing more

accessibility

into the market was voluntary. Microsoft has pretty decent

accessibility

on the Xbox, as well, a far cry from Sony who, even though they

released

so called accessibility first, are still missing crutial tts in areas
like the system settings 4 years later. Playing catch up, indeed.

I'm curious where you think microsoft is lacking in accessibility
these
days? Considering we have quite a few folks with disabilities working
for microsoft as well as apple, I think they're on a pretty level
playing field.


On 23-Jul-2018 3:40 PM, Antony Stone wrote:

Microsoft may have a better record on accessibility than "many other
companies", but depending on which other companies you compare

them with,

that
may not be saying much.

Also, given their overwhelming dominance in the desktop (laptop)
computing
market, I think they have not done as well as they should have done
in
terms
of accessibility.

I think Apple were late starters in the accessibility arena, but once
they
decided to go for it, they showed how it should be done, and
Microsoft
have
simply played catch-up, in order to avoid total embarrassment (rather
like
they had to in the mid 90s when they suddenly realised that people
had
found
out about the Internet, and if they didn't do something quick,

they'd be

left
behind in the networked world).


Antony.

On Monday 23 July 2018 at 22:29:59, Gene wrote:

I'm saying this not as a moderator, but as a list member.  I really
object
to you giving companies disparaging nicknames and I especially
object
to
it when the company has a much better record on accessibility

than many

other companies.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

On 7/24/2018 4:13 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I never actually lost trust in MS. I knew that skype was in time

going

to be a good thing and  talk about html was in happening  even
since
about 2004 if I remember correctly. Skype has come a long way and
we
have to thank microslop for  it. They  made skype what it is

today, a

ver good tool for my jobs and more.

--
Facebook: elvam2167@... <mailto:elvam2167@...>

anyaudio.net: elvam2167

Skype: elvam2167

From a grammatical perspective, I agree with you, John. I'm not one
to create silly names and such. I just explain my problems or ask my
questions in a clear manner, as I am not usually one for sarcasm or
satire. But I do think that, in general, people become offended far
too easily today.

I agree that certain universal keystrokes make sense. This is why I
like the standard menu interface in Windows, and why Firefox and Skype
annoyed me with their menu, tab, and list category combinations. It
didn't seem like a traditional menu structure to me, if that makes
sense.

Even though I have been using NVDA for many years, I never really
understood object navigation. It is quite different, in my mind at
least, from the cursors in JFW and the various modes in Vocal-Eyes. I
used a Mac in the days of Leopard and Snow Leopard, and the
interacting, along with a few other issues, most noteably the lack of
good support for Greek, are what made me return to Windows. Even now,
espeak is the only synthesizer that I know of which fully supports
polytonic Greek. At any rate, I hated having to interact with things
all of the time.

I have talking system recovery disks, so I doubt I would ever need
safe mode. But I would love to be able to boot into the bios!

On 24/07/2018, David Moore <jesusloves1966@...> wrote:

Here is my wisdom!
If you have nothing good to say, say nothing, that would be so much better!
If you have a problem with someone, say it to their face, quit being evasive
with members on the list, who can do nothing about your gripe. Talk to MS
yourself!
David Moore


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: John Isige
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 3:35 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] My thoughts on offensive company names and so on.

Well for me, I don't care about the offensiveness so much. What I care
about is stuff like:

Last night I was using elocrash with Skum from Microslop and I tried
with the shark and Microslop Notreader and NVDA and nothing was
working"! I'm sorry, l33t (look it up if you don't know/remember) wasn't
cool back in the 80s when it got started, and this stuff that's
essentially an equivalent of it isn't cool either. I know, just like the
l33t k1dz whu t0t3z roxxorz! you think you're terribly terribly clever,
but just as they weren't, really, you're not.

That's my problem, having to parse whatever dumb gibberish people think
is clever this week because all they can do is puns, the lowest form of
humor, on company names that really don't work anyway, instead of coming
up with something that's actually witty and meaningful. You see what I
did there? I actually wrote real words that everybody can understand and
stuff instead of going "shut up, John Isicky"! It also seems really odd
to insult a company you just got done saying did something right, but
maybe that's just that irony all you young people are supposed to be
into nowadays, and I'm just too old to get it. Besides, you will never
beat the pun on HP-UX, which is both obvious and funny, so really,
there's no point to it all anyway. I'll leave the working out of that
pun as an exercise for the reader.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the offensive part too. While I realize
companies, e.g. Microsoft, have a history to live down, a lot of that
was quite a while ago. Plus, how are they ever going to live it down or
get better if we're not giving them a chance, semi-praising them on the
one hand and insulting them on the other? You think that will make them
want to keep putting in the work for accessibility? Also, what in the
world is up with this "they're playing catch-up" stuff? Ooooo, Apple did
accessibility right, they showed everybody how it's done! OK, and then
you're upset that somebody's copying that? I mean, if Apple's so super
special awesome and all, shouldn't we want everybody and their fifth
cousin to copy them, such that we have proper accessibility on every
conceivable platform? Why are you complaining that other companies are
doing something like that? That should be, as I believe I've said when
it was mentioned that keyboard commands were being changed to be more
like other screen readers, exactly what we want. For example, my wife
bought a used mac for us. I read this article:

https://www.applevis.com/blog/apple-mac-os-x/debunking-common-myths-about-voiceover-mac

Looking at the web section, I see we've got commands to jump by headings
and all, and it seems pretty similar to other screen readers. Great!
That's less time wasted in trying to figure out how to do simple things,
and more time using the mac. Obviously I want to get more familiar with
the mac way of doing things and not just do what I'm doing on Windows,
because maybe mac does something better. But that will happen over time.
If I want to sit down and start checking something out to see what it's
like, the more barriers in my way like "learn an entirely different set
of commands and things just to navigate a web page", the less likely I
am to want to use that thing.

I'm not suggesting that every screen reader should work exactly like
every other screen reader. I'm saying that there should be a base set of
things that are pretty similar, e.g. I can do a lot of the same basic
stuff to get around in Android that I can do to get around in iOS. Sure,
if I really want to use either one, I'm going to have to learn their
specifics, but in general, I can pick up either kind of device with a
screen reader active and start using it to do stuff, no problem. You can
see this with NVDA too. What's the thing most people get hung up on?

That's right, object navigation. I use it a lot more now, particularly
if something isn't reading what I think it should, but it was confusing
for a bit until I got Joseph's tutorial. But you know what? Part of that
was because it was different from other screen readers I'd used, but
part of it was that I didn't have to worry about using it for a long
time, because NVDA does what I'm talking about. If you've used NVDA and
JFW, as I assume most people here have, you know there's a lot of stuff
that's similar between them in how you access Windows, e.g. using the
arrow keys and such.

But maybe you actually find object navigation better than the jaws
cursor. I'll give you an example, on the mac if you're reading a table,
you interact with it. Then you read it like you read any other thing. So
there's only, potentially, one extra command to remember, you have to
interact first. I don't have to try and learn a whole new set of table
navigation keystrokes. I used that example because it's fresh in my mind
and I honestly don't remember enough about how JFW did things to say
what's better or worse between it and NVDA.

Anyway the point to this rambling is that we shouldn't be implying that
other companies are substandard or whatever, because they've got feature
Y that looks a lot like feature X from Company Z's screen reader Lava
Talk, the screen reader that spits fire! We should be going "awesome,
they realized what works already, that's gonna save me a lot of time if
I ever have to learn or use that screen reader, especially if it's on
short notice". We shouldn't be complaining that they're "catching up". I
say, are they doing the work? Great, that means more stuff I can use in
more situations. Any "catching up" being done is nothing but a benefit
to us, pure and simple. Here's one last example. Microsoft now has it so
you can use Narrator in safe mode. How awesome would it be if they had a
key you could hold down while Windows is booting, like the recovery keys
on a mac, that boots you into safe mode automatically? Right now I'm
pretty sure you still have to hit a key and pick from a menu, which
means sighted assistance, if you want to be sure you've got it right.
How cool would it be to hold down, I don't know, Windows-n on boot and
get safe mode with networking, and just waiting a bit and then launching
Narrator and geting speech? I don't know about anybody else, but it
sounds really nice to me, if I ever encounter a problem.

There, I think I'm done. Except to say, again, that we should be
praising companies who are trying to do right, even if we think it took
them long enough, instead of slamming them for that and inventing dumb
insulting names for them. If they're doing right, or trying to do right,
then that's what they're doing, and we should only encourage it. Sure,
if they mess up, tell them so, hopefully constructively. I'm not saying
we should only be nice and say only good things about the stuff
companies make. But by all the gods, have some perspective. Your names
are neither cute nor clever, and we're not twelve any more. I'm pretty
sure I'm like, 14 or something.

I think there are basically two issues. Out and out completely off topic messages, which rally once answered once should not attract further replies is they just repeat the same thing, and subject drift which are a little more difficult.
One of the most annoying though is when somebody announces  something like I need nvda with X voic4e as it surely is the only voice for a screenreader. This is as the old saying goes often a red rag to a bull (OK Bulls are colour blind, so sue me!), and OK its true for that individual but not a lots of others.
I think in this case a simple link to the page telling folk of all the synths is probably all that is needed.
Brian
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian K. Lingard" <bkl@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 1:25 PM
Subject: [nvda] OT discussions

Dear Gene & List:
Yes, some off topic discussion is desirable, guess my primary beef is
subjects that do not highly describe the topic of discussion in the message
bodies.

I trust I am not coming across as moderator, however was commenting on list
posting habits generally.
Brian

Dear Gene & List:

Yes, some off topic discussion is desirable, guess my primary beef is subjects that do not highly describe the topic of discussion in the message bodies.

I trust I am not coming across as moderator, however was commenting on list posting habits generally.

Brian

Yes, Gene Asner is moderator, however I am not trying to moderate, just observing as to how people post. The rules for most lists say to minimize quoting to maintain continuity of discussion or sum up prior messages in a sentence or two. Alas, few list owners try to persuade their list members to do these things. Since not everyone is an English scholar, we have grammar & spell checkers to help us look like we are better communicators. Sorry to offend, my observations were and are not directed to you personally, just commenting on list traffic in general.

Brian

Excuse me but Gene Asner is the moderator--not you.

This message train does discuss Skype 8 for desktop, however has nothing to do with NVDA, this list's topic.

Perhaps should migrate to Skype English?

Please, Use grammar & spell checkers for optimal writing perfection. In addition, proofread.

1,200 bytes of redundant list trailers deleted.

Brian

Hay I was also wondering how to exit or quit skype from the system tray?

you are right, but there is not mention the hotkey to answer a call!
in addition, that is the problem.
cheers
Paul otter

Op 23-7-2018 om 01:14 schreef Kerryn Gunness via Groups.Io:

hi all

below is a link, which Microsoft give short cuts for skype 8 for desktop

 

https://support.skype.com/en/faq/FA12025/what-are-hotkeys-and-how-do-i-use-them-in-skype

 

kerryn

 

What up Duck? Cool. How about the rest of you? I forget what beta we are in 62 currently. How is it working for you?

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

---

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Mallard <mallard@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 9:57:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Anybody on here testing the FF betas?

 

Hello Lino,


I've just upgraded to Firefox 63.01 with Nightly, and it's quite fast.
On the other hand, I've never experienced any lags on Firefox at all.
I'm generally using the official version, 61.01, which works very
smoothly at this end.

hth, ciao,

Ollie





Il 23/07/2018 22:59, Lino Morales ha scritto:
>
> Hi. Is anyone on here testing the latest betas of Firefox with NVDA
> 2018.2 or later? Is it any faster? I’m still using Waterfox. Thanks.
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>

Hi Glenn

Try the following

Press the windows key + letter R this will bring up the run dialogue then type in the following

shell:appsfolder

then press the enter key.

A list of programs will come up jump down to the letter M programs by pressing the letter M  You might have to arrow right to get to the mail one if not in the list. You can use the arrow keys to do this it might be below or to the right.

After you have located the mail one use the applications key  then arrow down to create a shortcut then press the enter key.

It will say not here do you want it on the desk top just say yes to it and it will be there.

Gene nz

Hi,

I’m working on a friend’s computer with Windows 10.

The Office 2000 mail won’t work, and it won’t allow windows live mail to be installed.

I set up Microsoft’s Mail app that came with windows 10, and it looks like it will work well for him, but he is accustomed to finding his mail program on the desktop, but I can’t find a way to make a shortcut on the desktop.

If I knew for sure where the mail program resides, I can go there and make a shortcut, and copy it to the desktop, but when I find it in the task bar, there is no context menu option for send to, or copy, or create shortcut.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Glenn

 

Glenn Ervin  Orientation Counselor II

Norfolk Nebraska

402 370 3436

Cell: 402 992 0325

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