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Re: Reading web pages
Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
Is that in waterfox as well?
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Brian bglists@blueyonder.co.uk Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading web pages Mark, There are ways to make the screen reader (regardless of which one) do this, but I have found that if you're using either Firefox or Chrome the Read Aloud Add-On/Extension does an incredibly good job of this, better than the screen readers in fact. I also like that you can have a distinctive voice for Read Aloud so that you know whether it's the screen reader or Read Aloud that's reading. The only disadvantage is that you do have to remember to hit ALT+O to shut up Read Aloud before you leave a page that it's reading. If you don't, it's already buffered it and it will keep on reading even after you've left the page. -- Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind. ~ Richard Dehmel
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Re: Reading web pages
Gene
Open the document formatting dialog with control
NVDA key d.
Tab through the items, and check or uncheck
anything you want with the space bar. Then activate the ok
button.
Remember that you will automatically save settings
if you exit the program. That is the default behavior. To return to
the previous settings and not accidentally save them, use control NVDA key r
when you are finished using the changed settings at any time before closing the
program. But if you wait, you may forget and close the program without
doing so.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Is it possible to get NVDA to read web pages as simple text without saying 'Link' each time it hits a link?. Wikipedia pages have many links in the text and it would be good to hear it read without keep hearing the word 'Link'
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Re: Reading web pages
Mark,
There are ways to make the screen reader (regardless of which one) do this, but I have found that if you're using either Firefox or Chrome the Read Aloud Add-On/Extension does an incredibly good job of this, better than the screen readers in fact. I also like that you can have a distinctive voice for Read Aloud so that you know whether it's the screen reader or Read Aloud that's reading. The only disadvantage is that you do have to remember to hit ALT+O to shut up Read Aloud before you leave a page that it's reading. If you don't, it's already buffered it and it will keep on reading even after you've left the page. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind. ~ Richard Dehmel
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Re: Reading web pages
John Isige
Yes. You want document formatting under settings, there are check boxes for what gets reported, and links is one of them. There are also headings and a number of other things. You can turn all of them off.
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On 7/28/2018 11:05, Mark Reynolds wrote:
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Reading web pages
Mark Reynolds
Is it possible to get NVDA to read web pages as simple text without saying 'Link' each time it hits a link?. Wikipedia pages have many links in the text and it would be good to hear it read without keep hearing the word 'Link'
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Re: Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA
Gene
One more message in this thread from me. I
wasn't going to write any more in this thread but after trying the links list
again, I see more serious disadvantages of it and I think they should be
addressed.
Those interested in the topic may find useful
information as well. In addition, since NVDA volunteers create
instructional material, the following may contribute to better material.
Now, let's consider the disadvantages I spoke
of.
First, you may have to select the structure you
want to look for. Let's take the Google page for an example. If you
were on a different page the last time and were searching through links, this
time, on Google, you first have to select headings as the structure you want to
search through. So we are already at two extra and completely unnecessary
steps.
One, open the links list. Two, select
headings as the structure you want to use which requires shift tabbing once and
down arrowing once, then tabbing back to the list. So that is actually
three completely unnecessary steps.
Now, you down arrow through the headings.
When you find a result you want to know more about before going to the actual
page the heading/link leads to, you do the following:
You have to use the move to command, alt m.
This moves you to the heading/link and you are now returned to the web
page. You now can down arrow through the information about the result or
read it as you wish. As I said you are back on the web page. The
headings list doesn't move you to the heading as you move through the
list. You have to move to the
heading. So this is yet another completely unnecessary step.
If you just want to follow the link without looking
at any additionall information, you do alt m, then enter. Either way, you
execute the alt m command, a completely unnecessary command, as I
said.
So let's review. You want to look through
results on Google. You do a search for a topic.
You open the links list. If you used it as a
links list last time, you shift tab once, down arrow once to set it to headings,
tab once, and start down arrowing through the headings. Google results are
links that are shown as both headings and links. Once you get to one you
want to follow, you have to issue the command alt m, then press enter. Or,
if you want to see the additional information for the result to help you decide
if you want to follow the link, its alt m then read the results.
Now, consider the alternative.
Go to Google, do a search and when the results page
comes up do the following:
Type the letter h repeatedly. That command
moves you through the headings exactly as you would move if you were using the
headings list but you don't have to issue an unnecessary command and take one or
both hands off the main keyboard to issue the NVDA f7 command to open the
list. Nor do you do any of the other unnecessary steps I outlined
above.
All you do is type the letter h repeatedly.
When you get to a heading you want to see aditional information about, you just
read the information, which is right under where you are.
Or you just press enter to follow the
link.
So do search, type h until you get to a heading
that interests you, and either read the results or just press enter. That
description was very short because all those unnecessary steps were
eliminated.
Since h moves through headings exactly as the
headings list does, where is the advantage to the list?
Since the letter k allows you to move from link to
link without leaving the page and you move from link to link, exactly as you do
in the links list, where is the advantage of the links list?
You accused me of making a mountain out of a
molehill. Really? When there are the kinds of important differences
I've outlined? And you accuse me of being rigid. I have presented a
factual, detailed discussion supporting my argument.
If people want to use these lists, they may, of
course, do what they want. But because I make a strong case for what I
consider to be best practices and best teaching practices, that does not make me
dictatorial or rigid. I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. But I
am presenting a detailed, reasoned argument which I consider to be very strong.
I've observed the kinds of problems a lot of blind
people have using the Internet for years. I've done a little advising and
teaching. I've seen that one of the crucially important things to teach is
the importance of context, to not just open a web page and read every page from
the top, nor to tab through it and that's all, but rather to work with a page in
a way to accomplish what you want to accomplish. What you do on a page may
differ considerably depending on what you are doing, whether it is a familiar
page or not, and what is on the page. There may be pages where you start
from the top and read some or all the page. there may be pages where you
use the find command, find something like a link and follow it. There are
pages where you might do other things. But a lot of people do things like
just tab through a page or just start reading or don't look effectively for what
they want to find on a page if they know in advance what it is. And they
don't change what they do, they treat pages in the same way.
The links list reinforces all the undesirable
predispositions I've observed that I consider essential for good instruction to
dispel and guard against. Note carefully that I didn't say people
shouldn't be taught the links list. Nor did I say they shouldn't use
it. I said that people should not be taught the links list until
after they have fully mastered web page navigation and how to decide how to work
with a web page, depending on what kind of page it is and what they want to
do on the page. If the links list is studied before that time, it
reinforces all the wrong habits students may have adopted in the past or may be
tempted to adopt before they have learned why they are bad habits. The
idea of the links list is sudductive. When I first heard about it, while I
was still learning page navigation, it sounded wonderful. But as I
learned, I realized how pernicious it is to teach it before the student is ready
to learn it without detrimental effect.
Of course, if a student doesn't learn well using
techniques and approaches I generally teach, I would use other approaches and
methods. I am discussing what I consider to
be best practices for most students.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS &
NVDA It may be that I don't understand how sighted
people see web pages but it is certainly different than the way a blind person
encounters it.
I don't know if I'm making a mountain out of a
molehill. And I don't think your characterization is correct about my
having a tendency to do so.
I fail to see why you are so defensive and hostile
on this subject. I'm making two or three main points and your messages
support them even though you are at least to an extent, arguing against
them.
The thread began with you explaining a difficulty
you are having with increasing numbers of web sites where a structure appears
visually as one thing and to the screen-reader as something else. You
discussed how you had problems using one of the screen-reader lists to move
through the cart in part because a structure appears different visually than it
appears to a screen-reader and you were using the links list so the structure
was not seen.
My point is that if you don't use the links list,
but use the methods I discussed, the search command, or tabbing through the
cart, you won't have the problem. and you won't have it on other
sites. Your own message argues for what I am
saying.
I explained my strong view that
the links list shouldn’t' be used on unfamiliar pages.
I said it detracts from
effective teaching because it uses completely artificial constructs and removes
the user from the page. And I said that it shouldn't be taught until the
student has thoroughly mastered navigation using the web page
itself.
To this, and to my concrete examples and very
specific arguments, you wrote a quarrelsome, almost attack that maybe some day
it will occur to me that there are other ways of doing things than mine.
That is completely beside the point and irrelevant. I made a very good
case for my views and why I think they are by far best practices.
Attacking me and accusing me of rigidity won't win the argument. You
haven't given any specific counterexamples or arguments against what I said
except that different people are different. That has nothing to do with
best practices. If you don't generalize about best practices and try to
account for exceptions that don't represent the general, how can you teach
anything?
I've done a little teaching. If the person
had problems understanding or working in the way I think is the best practice to
teach, I would use other methods.
And I didn't prescribe or say that people have to
use this or that method. I discussed using the find command, move by
headings, skip blocks of links commands, and move by button. Hardly
rigid. I'm giving different ways of movement that one may use depending on
circumstances and page layout and on how you want to work with the page. I
also said specifically that if you want to know a lot about what is on a page,
you may want to read some or all of the page.
I discussed the mouse because you attacked me as
being rigid and dictatorial. I didn't do so as an attack, however,
And you don't have to apologize for anything. But it is certainly the
case that a sighted person may approach something In not necessarily the best
manner for a blind person to learn because of thinking of things as perceived in
the sighted way. I didn't say you generally do this. It doesn't
appear to me that you do. And I am not discounting the value of getting
sighted help when useful or important. But my point still
stands.
But based on twenty years of Internet use, thinking
about what works well and what doesn't, and observing the kinds of problems many
blind people have using the Internet, I dispute the amount of emphasis you seem
to place on use of the mouse to get a picture of the web page.
If you are interested, I will discuss what I
consider the most effective way to give blind people an understanding of the way
a sighted person sees a web page layout as compared with a blind person, using
browse mode which reformats the page.
Your tone has been increasingly hostile and
dismissive. If you want to answer, I'll give you the last word. I've
pretty much said everything I have to say and you may have a response. I
think people pretty well have decided what they think of our differences so I
won't keep arguing various points.
Gene
----- Original Message
-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS &
NVDA No one is better at making a mountain out of a molehill than you are. You really need to consider "how you read," as it's clear to me that I am far from alone in my perception of your both your tone and the scope of your comments. As to my taking on "the sighted way" well, of course I do. We are all the products of our sensory palettes. I could no sooner pretend to understand what it is to be blind as a perceptual world than I could to pretend to understand what it is to be deaf, unable to taste or smell, or lacking touch or proprioception. I am what I am, and I make no apology for that. I also find your explanation of how you look at a webpage utterly alien to my own experience even when I'm looking at parts rather than the whole. I tend to look at classes of objects because most webpages are presented arranged by such and, up until very recently, one could count on object types having very distinct visual presentations. That's how most of them came to have their names, e.g, a button on screen looks like a button on a physical object (or at least it did until the recent flat look became all the rage, now it looks like a rectangle filled in by color and a label when it's done conventionally). It is bad, bad, bad design to mask one object as though it were another. It violates every rule in the book. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134 A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind. ~ Richard Dehmel
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Re: Using NVDA on XP?
Hi, Run happily: fully supported and will run. In this context, later versions of NVDA will refuse to run on XP. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Howard Traxler
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 9:04 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA on XP?
run happily? Does that mean later versions will run, but not very happily?
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Re: Using NVDA on XP?
Howard Traxler <howard@...>
run happily? Does that mean later versions
will run, but not very happily?
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Re: NVDA Goes Silent In Dialogue on Websites
Tyler Wood
I don't think it is for me, if I'm honest.
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I can honestly say that even older machines, one in particular that is running an old core 2 duo, seem to be doing even better since the upgrade. It isn't night and day, but the difference is certainly noticeable. Add to this windows 10 doesn't have an end support date and you can add life to an old pc that it otherwise wouldn't have, including security updates and the like.
On 28-Jul-2018 4:21 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I think getting windows 10 is debatable, though of course in the long run vendors will increasing add more bells and whistles to software that work best in 10.
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Re: MS Onenote
Felix G.
Hi, for sharing folders and files between users and devices, I recommend using Dropbox, Google Drive or a similar cloud-based storage service. Best, Felix Dan Beaver <dbeaver888@...> schrieb am Sa., 28. Juli 2018 um 15:00 Uhr:
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Re: MS Onenote
Dan Beaver
Quinton,
I am just beginning to learn what it is and how to use it. It was recommended to me by a friend. We want to use a tool that will let us access certain files from our phones and from our computers at all times and we were told OneNote will let us do this.
Thanks.
Dan Beaver
On 7/28/2018 12:49 AM, Quentin
Christensen wrote:
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Re: Using NVDA on XP?
James Bentley <bentleyj1952@...>
Thank you Quentin and Joeseph,
I’ll get this info to my friend right
away. I am curious as to how well he likes NVDA on XP.
Concerning NVDA and windows 7, I tried
to fill out an insurance form yesterday using Jaws. Jaws did not recognize
my imput on part of the form. Hmmm, useless on that particular site in
both IE and Chrome. I cranked up NVDA just to try it. I had the form
filled out with Chrome in ten minutes. Kind of strange how that worked
out.
Cheers,
James
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using NVDA on XP? Hi James,
As Joseph noted, the last version of NVDA that works on Windows XP is NVDA
2017.3. The download for that version is: https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/releases/2017.3/nvda_2017.3.exe
Kind regards
Quentin. On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 12:03 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification
now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess Twitter: @NVAccess
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Doing mathematics
Akshaya Choudhary
How do you guys do mathematics? Do you use some software or some physical instrument like abacus? I will be appearing for a management entrance exam in December. I will be required to solve high school level mathematical problems as soon as possible. I had learnt math when I had partial vision with normal pen and paper, then i switched to humanities, and now I intend to go the management route. For this I will be required to do mathematics again. Please suggest me any possible solutions. It is a competitive exam, so speed and accuracy both matters.
Regards, Sociohack
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Re: User configuration directory
Felix G.
Hi! For an installed NVDA, what I do is press Windows+R to bring up the Run dialog, then type %appdata%\NVDA which will take me to NVDA's user config. Best, Felix Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> schrieb am Sa., 28. Juli 2018 um 11:17 Uhr:
Ah well one of the first things I do after getting a new machine is make all
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Re: can't put the mail app on muy desktop
Chris
Try this
Open run dialog Windows+R Type this exactly
Shell:appsfolder
And hit ok
This will open a explorer window
From the list of items select the mail icon Then right click or application key or whatever way you do a right click And from the menu select create shortcut It will tell you cant create a shortcut here but do you want to create a desktop shortcut instead? Choose yes Then close the window and you are done
From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: 28 July 2018 06:57 To: nvda@groups.io Subject: [nvda] can't put the mail app on muy desktop
Hi, everyone,
I just switched to the mail app but now I can’t put it on my desktop. I tried everything I know to do but nothing has worked. I don’t want to have to keep hitting the windows key and typing “mail” every time I want to go to the mail app. What could I be doing wrong?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Rosemarie
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
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Re: can't put the mail app on muy desktop
Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
Oh what fun, If I were a programmer I'd create a new app called Thingy!
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Brian bglists@blueyonder.co.uk Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Isige" <gwynn@tds.net> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] can't put the mail app on muy desktop I'm going to give this example with Mail, but this will work for any app, like the Windows 10 version of Skype, for example. Also, I don't use Mail so I don't know if it's just called Mail or Windows Mail or Microsoft Mail or what, so just replace "Mail" with whatever it's actually called. 1. Hit the Windows key. 2. Type mail. 3. When it shows mail, don't hit enter on it, right click it with the applications key or shift-F10. 4. Pick "pin to taskbar". 5. Hit escape to get out of start. 6. Hit Windows-m to go to the desktop, and tab until you hear "running applications tool bar", mine starts with a button for Edge but yours might be different. 7. Arrow right or left until you hear "mail button". 8. Right click on mail and arrow to "create shortcut". Hit enter on that. 9. It will say it can't create a shortcut there, do you want to send it to the desktop? Say yes, obviously. 10. You'll have a thing on your desktop named "Mail Shortcut". If you want to rename it to just "Mail", hit F2 or right click and pick rename. 11. Finally, if you want to take Mail off of your taskbar, repeat steps 6-8, but instead of picking "create shortcut", pick, wait for it, "unpin from taskbar". There you go. There's a shorter way to do this using the command line somebody posted a while back, but I have no idea what the command is because it seemed pretty complicated. This is fairly easy to remember and it works for pretty much anything, as far as I can tell. I broke it down into a lot of steps so it would be easier to understand, but basically you find thingy, right click and pick pin to taskbar, find thingy on your taskbar, right click and pick create shortcut and answer the obvious question, and you're done, thingy is now on your desktop. If you want to do some cleanup, unpin thingy from your taskbar and rename the desktop from "thingy shortcut" to "thingy". That's about six steps really, find it, pin it, find it on taskbar, create shortcut, unpin shortcut, and rename shortcut. Also, you can just go right to the taskbar because Mail is on there by default, so you can either run it from the taskbar all the time, or just right click and create the shortcut. I don't know if you can unpin it, since you didn't put it there in the first place. But like I said, this works for anything you can find from the start thingy like that, so hopefully that will help more generally. On 7/28/2018 0:57, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
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Re: thunderbird is very sluggish
Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
Is your preview pane by any chance active again?
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Also, what was happening before it started to act up, might be worth taking the machine back to then. Brian bglists@blueyonder.co.uk Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@gmail.com> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] thunderbird is very sluggish I did unload and reload NVDA but that didn’t help. I’ll try rebooting and see if that helps. Right now I’m using the mail app to write this message. Rosemarie Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Gene Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 11:25 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] thunderbird is very sluggish Ass usual, did you unload and run NVDA again? If that didn't help, did you reboot? Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Rosemarie Chavarria Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 10:15 PM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: [nvda] thunderbird is very sluggish Hi, everyone, I don't know what's going on but there seems to be something wrong with thunderbird or NVDA. The speech is very sluggish. Is there a remmody for this? Thanks for your help in advance. Rosemarie
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Re: Easy Table add-on
Akshaya Choudhary
Thank you Joseph! And, many thanks for creating such useful addons.
-- Regards, Sociohack
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Re: NVDA Goes Silent In Dialogue on Websites
Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
I think getting windows 10 is debatable, though of course in the long run vendors will increasing add more bells and whistles to software that work best in 10.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I'm using 7, and do not think I'll change on this machine and get another cheapo one to play with 10 on when funds are there. Brian bglists@blueyonder.co.uk Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian K. Lingard" <bkl@ncf.ca> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 2:40 AM Subject: Re: [NVDA] NVDA Goes Silent In Dialogue on Websites Dear David & List: A button is activated by pressing the space bar to press it. A link is activated by pressing enter on it or the left-hand mouse button. Recommend you update your NVDA to the latest version supported by win 7. Consider upgrading to Win 10. No announced end date for support. Briam From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
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Re: User configuration directory
Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
Ah well one of the first things I do after getting a new machine is make all files visible to my account and set myself as admin. Also where possible set all folders to the same list view, increasingly hard in 10, and I also make sure it can open explorer windows in a new process so I can see how a I got to where I am with alt tab. its no hassle with plenty of ram after all.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Brian bglists@blueyonder.co.uk Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] User configuration directory Hi, I think there is a bigger problem here: the folder name doesn’t matter; what matters is if show hidden files and folders is turned on. Cheers, Joseph From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 2:59 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] User configuration directory On the installed copy the folder is called systemconfig. Only in portable copies the foldeer is called Userconfig. Best Adriani Von meinem iPhone gesendet Am 27.07.2018 um 23:21 schrieb Tage Johansson <frans.tage@gmail.com <mailto:frans.tage@gmail.com> >: Hello! Does anyone know where the NVDA user config directory usually is located. I tried to click on the item in the start menu, but it seams to be an empty file instead of a directory. Thanks in advance! Tage
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