Date   

Re: a question for geen nz

Gene
 

Are you clicking on the link or copying and pasting it into a browser?  Copying and pasting the link works.  Make sure you aren't copying any extraneous material.  I don't know if clicking on the link works.  I didn't try it.
 
Gene
----- Orihginal Message -----

From: John Isige
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] a question for geen nz

I get 403 forbidden when I click that link.


On 7/28/2018 18:28, Travis Siegel wrote:
> There's always my program, the Youtube Downloader User Interface, and
> you can find it at
> http://www.softcon.com/files/
> There's other programs on that page too, but the ytdlui program works
> with 3 different programs to do the actual downloading, including
> youtube-dl, curl, and wget.  You'll need to read the documentation to
> find the download locations, and you'll also need to make sure at
> least one of those programs are in the same directory as the ytdlui
> program, but it works quite nicely, allows multiple urls, (one per
> line), and logs the status of each download so you have a record of
> what was downloaded, and when it was done.
>
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2018, Bobby Vinton wrote:
>
>> Hay I was wondering if you still use the free you tube down loader
>> for windows?  I was wondering if the program is still accessible?  I
>> am asking because you did a demo on the program.  I have not updated
>> the program in a year butt I am using the older version.  Just let me
>> know.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>





Re: Doing mathematics

ely.r@...
 

Sociohack

First you need to be in touch with who or whatever the testing organization is. Tell them about your vision and ask first if they have had experience with accommodations for a blind or visually impaired person. If so, could they email you a list of accommodations that have been used in the past. You would want to f Specifically, if a talking calculator will be seen as a reasonable accommodation. There are stand-alone talking calculators. If you have an iPhone or iPad there are free calculator apps and at least one scientific talking calculator I believe may still be free. If you want suggestions, let me know on or off list.

Whatever you might choose to use, you would want to have it soon so that you have plenty of time to get comfortable using it.

How are you going to read what I imagine is a print text exam? Do you still have enough vision to read large print? If not may you have a reader/scribe? Does the testing organization provide someone or can it be a person you choose. The second option is the best. Like the calculator, it you can select a reader/scribe the two of you should find a source for sample questions to use for practice.  You may find that there is a study guide for the exam.

Hope this does not feel like information overload. You have a good deal of time before the exam. Vest thing to do is to work with whatever accommodations you choose so that they help not hinder your test taking.

Rick

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sociohack AC
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 6:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Doing mathematics

 

 How do you guys do mathematics?  Do you use some software or some physical instrument like abacus? I will be appearing for a management entrance exam in December. I will be required to solve high school level mathematical problems as soon as possible. I had learnt math when I had partial vision with normal pen and paper, then i switched to humanities, and now I intend to go the management route. For this I will be required to do mathematics again. Please suggest me any possible solutions. It is a competitive exam, so speed and accuracy both matters. 

Regards,
Sociohack


Re: a question for geen nz

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

Sorry, permissions error, all fixed now.

On Sat, 28 Jul 2018, John Isige wrote:

I get 403 forbidden when I click that link.


On 7/28/2018 18:28, Travis Siegel wrote:
There's always my program, the Youtube Downloader User Interface, and
you can find it at
http://www.softcon.com/files/
There's other programs on that page too, but the ytdlui program works
with 3 different programs to do the actual downloading, including
youtube-dl, curl, and wget.  You'll need to read the documentation to
find the download locations, and you'll also need to make sure at
least one of those programs are in the same directory as the ytdlui
program, but it works quite nicely, allows multiple urls, (one per
line), and logs the status of each download so you have a record of
what was downloaded, and when it was done.
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018, Bobby Vinton wrote:

Hay I was wondering if you still use the free you tube down loader
for windows?  I was wondering if the program is still accessible?  I
am asking because you did a demo on the program.  I have not updated
the program in a year butt I am using the older version.  Just let me
know.



graphical tool for dism?

Josh Kennedy
 

Hi,

 

Does anyone know of a good graphical tool that will let you use all of dism’s features with a graphical interface, buttons and checkboxes and list boxes and so on? I can use the command line, but lets say I add a language or some features that are part of a package, and then want to remove the tts or something, some of those packages are stubborn and can only be removed with administrator command line running like such:

 

Dism /online /remove-package /packageName:NameOfPackageToBeRemoved

 

If there is a tool that will put a list of packages in a list box and let me remove them with NVDA it would make life easier. I can use the command line with dism to get a list of stubborn packages I wish to remove. And I can remove them with command line also but this involves sending the list of packages to a text file, copying and pasting packageNames onto the command line and stuff. Life would be easier with a dism gui program that works with NVDA.

 

Josh

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

David Moore
 

Hi all!

I agree with Gene!

I never use the elements list, because it is easier for me to press the short cut key for that element right on the web site. I can figure out where the different heading levels are, so I can just start pressing the number two over and over if I know I want to see all material on the web page at the second heading level.

I look up health stuff for Traci all the time, on web sites I have never been on, and I arrow around a bit, and then start using H for heading and K for link, for example.

I have just never used the links list, in NVDA or JAWS!

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 12:50 PM
To: Gene; nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

One more message in this thread from me.  I wasn't going to write any more in this thread but after trying the links list again, I see more serious disadvantages of it and I think they should be addressed. 

 

Those interested in the topic may find useful information as well.  In addition, since NVDA volunteers create instructional material, the following may contribute to better material. 

 

Now, let's consider the disadvantages I spoke of. 

 

First, you may have to select the structure you want to look for.  Let's take the Google page for an example.  If you were on a different page the last time and were searching through links, this time, on Google, you first have to select headings as the structure you want to search through.  So we are already at two extra and completely unnecessary steps.

 

One, open the links list.  Two, select headings as the structure you want to use which requires shift tabbing once and down arrowing once, then tabbing back to the list.  So that is actually three completely unnecessary steps. 

Now, you down arrow through the headings.  When you find a result you want to know more about before going to the actual page the heading/link leads to, you do the following:

You have to use the move to command, alt m.  This moves you to the heading/link and you are now returned to the web page.  You now can down arrow through the information about the result or read it as you wish.  As I said you are back on the web page.  The headings list doesn't move you to the heading as you move through the list.  You have to move to the heading.  So this is yet another completely unnecessary step. 

 

If you just want to follow the link without looking at any additionall information, you do alt m, then enter.  Either way, you execute the alt m command, a completely unnecessary command, as I said.

 

So let's review.  You want to look through results on Google.  You do a search for a topic.

You open the links list.  If you used it as a links list last time, you shift tab once, down arrow once to set it to headings, tab once, and start down arrowing through the headings.  Google results are links that are shown as both headings and links.  Once you get to one you want to follow, you have to issue the command alt m, then press enter.  Or, if you want to see the additional information for the result to help you decide if you want to follow the link, its alt m then read the results.

 

Now, consider the alternative.

Go to Google, do a search and when the results page comes up do the following:

Type the letter h repeatedly.  That command moves you through the headings exactly as you would move if you were using the headings list but you don't have to issue an unnecessary command and take one or both hands off the main keyboard to issue the NVDA f7 command to open the list.  Nor do you do any of the other unnecessary steps I outlined above. 

All you do is type the letter h repeatedly.  When you get to a heading you want to see aditional information about, you just read the information, which is right under where you are. 

Or you just press enter to follow the link.

So do search, type h until you get to a heading that interests you, and either read the results or just press enter.  That description was very short because all those unnecessary steps were eliminated. 

 

Since h moves through headings exactly as the headings list does, where is the advantage to the list?

Since the letter k allows you to move from link to link without leaving the page and you move from link to link, exactly as you do in the links list, where is the advantage of the links list? 

 

You accused me of making a mountain out of a molehill.  Really?  When there are the kinds of important differences I've outlined?  And you accuse me of being rigid.  I have presented a factual, detailed discussion supporting my argument. 

 

If people want to use these lists, they may, of course, do what they want.  But because I make a strong case for what I consider to be best practices and best teaching practices, that does not make me dictatorial or rigid.  I'm not forcing anyone to do anything.  But I am presenting a detailed, reasoned argument which I consider to be very strong.

 

I've observed the kinds of problems a lot of blind people have using the Internet for years.  I've done a little advising and teaching.  I've seen that one of the crucially important things to teach is the importance of context, to not just open a web page and read every page from the top, nor to tab through it and that's all, but rather to work with a page in a way to accomplish what you want to accomplish.  What you do on a page may differ considerably depending on what you are doing, whether it is a familiar page or not, and what is on the page.  There may be pages where you start from the top and read some or all the page.  there may be pages where you use the find command, find something like a link and follow it.  There are pages where you might do other things.  But a lot of people do things like just tab through a page or just start reading or don't look effectively for what they want to find on a page if they know in advance what it is.  And they don't change what they do, they treat pages in the same way. 

 

The links list reinforces all the undesirable predispositions I've observed that I consider essential for good instruction to dispel and guard against.  Note carefully that I didn't say people shouldn't be taught the links list.  Nor did I say they shouldn't use it.  I said that people should not be taught the links list until after they have fully mastered web page navigation and how to decide how to work with a web page, depending on what kind of page it is and what they want to do on the page. If the links list is studied before that time, it reinforces all the wrong habits students may have adopted in the past or may be tempted to adopt before they have learned why they are bad habits.  The idea of the links list is sudductive.  When I first heard about it, while I was still learning page navigation, it sounded wonderful.  But as I learned, I realized how pernicious it is to teach it before the student is ready to learn it without detrimental effect.

 

Of course, if a student doesn't learn well using techniques and approaches I generally teach, I would use other approaches and methods.  I am discussing what I consider to be best practices for most students. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 5:44 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

It may be that I don't understand how sighted people see web pages but it is certainly different than the way a blind person encounters it. 

 

I don't know if I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.  And I don't think your characterization is correct about my having a tendency to do so.

 

I fail to see why you are so defensive and hostile on this subject.  I'm making two or three main points and your messages support them even though you are at least to an extent, arguing against them.

 

The thread began with you explaining a difficulty you are having with increasing numbers of web sites where a structure appears visually as one thing and to the screen-reader as something else.  You discussed how you had problems using one of the screen-reader lists to move through the cart in part because a structure appears different visually than it appears to a screen-reader and you were using the links list so the structure was not seen. 

 

My point is that if you don't use the links list, but use the methods I discussed, the search command, or tabbing through the cart, you won't have the problem.  and you won't have it on other sites.  Your own message argues for what I am saying.

 

I explained my strong view that the links list shouldn’t' be used on unfamiliar pages.

I said it detracts from effective teaching because it uses completely artificial constructs and removes the user from the page.  And I said that it shouldn't be taught until the student has thoroughly mastered navigation using the web page itself.

 

To this, and to my concrete examples and very specific arguments, you wrote a quarrelsome, almost attack that maybe some day it will occur to me that there are other ways of doing things than mine.  That is completely beside the point and irrelevant.  I made a very good case for my views and why I think they are by far best practices.  Attacking me and accusing me of rigidity won't win the argument.  You haven't given any specific counterexamples or arguments against what I said except that different people are different.  That has nothing to do with best practices.  If you don't generalize about best practices and try to account for exceptions that don't represent the general, how can you teach anything? 

 

I've done a little teaching.  If the person had problems understanding or working in the way I think is the best practice to teach, I would use other methods. 

 

And I didn't prescribe or say that people have to use this or that method.  I discussed using the find command, move by headings, skip blocks of links commands, and move by button.  Hardly rigid.  I'm giving different ways of movement that one may use depending on circumstances and page layout and on how you want to work with the page.  I also said specifically that if you want to know a lot about what is on a page, you may want to read some or all of the page.

 

I discussed the mouse because you attacked me as being rigid and dictatorial.  I didn't do so as an attack, however,  And you don't have to apologize for anything.  But it is certainly the case that a sighted person may approach something In not necessarily the best manner for a blind person to learn because of thinking of things as perceived in the sighted way.  I didn't say you generally do this.  It doesn't appear to me that you do.  And I am not discounting the value of getting sighted help when useful or important.  But my point still stands.

 

But based on twenty years of Internet use, thinking about what works well and what doesn't, and observing the kinds of problems many blind people have using the Internet, I dispute the amount of emphasis you seem to place on use of the mouse to get a picture of the web page. 

 

If you are interested, I will discuss what I consider the most effective way to give blind people an understanding of the way a sighted person sees a web page layout as compared with a blind person, using browse mode which reformats the page.  

 

Your tone has been increasingly hostile and dismissive.  If you want to answer, I'll give you the last word.  I've pretty much said everything I have to say and you may have a response.  I think people pretty well have decided what they think of our differences so I won't keep arguing various points.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 3:44 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

Gene,

           No one is better at making a mountain out of a molehill than you are.

           You really need to consider "how you read," as it's clear to me that I am far from alone in my perception of your both your tone and the scope of your comments.

           As to my taking on "the sighted way" well, of course I do.  We are all the products of our sensory palettes.  I could no sooner pretend to understand what it is to be blind as a perceptual world than I could to pretend to understand what it is to be deaf, unable to taste or smell, or lacking touch or proprioception.  I am what I am, and I make no apology for that.  I also find your explanation of how you look at a webpage utterly alien to my own experience even when I'm looking at parts rather than the whole.  I tend to look at classes of objects because most webpages are presented arranged by such and, up until very recently, one could count on object types having very distinct visual presentations.  That's how most of them came to have their names, e.g, a button on screen looks like a button on a physical object (or at least it did until the recent flat look became all the rage, now it looks like a rectangle filled in by color and a label when it's done conventionally).  It is bad, bad, bad design to mask one object as though it were another.  It violates every rule in the book.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 

 


Re: a question for geen nz

John Isige
 

I get 403 forbidden when I click that link.

On 7/28/2018 18:28, Travis Siegel wrote:
There's always my program, the Youtube Downloader User Interface, and
you can find it at
http://www.softcon.com/files/
There's other programs on that page too, but the ytdlui program works
with 3 different programs to do the actual downloading, including
youtube-dl, curl, and wget.  You'll need to read the documentation to
find the download locations, and you'll also need to make sure at
least one of those programs are in the same directory as the ytdlui
program, but it works quite nicely, allows multiple urls, (one per
line), and logs the status of each download so you have a record of
what was downloaded, and when it was done.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018, Bobby Vinton wrote:

Hay I was wondering if you still use the free you tube down loader
for windows?  I was wondering if the program is still accessible?  I
am asking because you did a demo on the program.  I have not updated
the program in a year butt I am using the older version.  Just let me
know.





Windows 10 App Essentials 18.08 (Birthday Edition) released #addonrelease

 

Hi all,

 

I’m delighted to announce the immediate release of Windows 10 App Essentials 18.08 (aka Windows 10 Birthday Edition). As always, the new version can be downloaded via add-on update feature (part of the add-on).

More info about changes can be found at:

https://github.com/josephsl/wintenapps/releases/tag/18.08

 

Changelog:

 

* Added support for IUIAutomation6 interface (works properly with NVDA 2018.3 or later).

* IN Windows 10 Redstone 5, improved NVDA's responsiveness in some situations by using features introduced in IUIAutomation6, particularly when switching apps while a long-running task is running in the background.

* Updated various add-on source code parts to reflect 2018 changes.

* When tracking events, the sender itself (object where the event came from) is also logged.

* When tracking UIA notification events, debug tone will be heard if notifications came from somewhere other than the active app.

* Expanded submenu handling beyond Shell experience Host, as Microsoft Edge's app menu (Alt+X) contains submenus since Redstone 5.

* Custom handler for looping selector items (not the list) found in Alarms and Clock and Settings apps are no longer included due to improved accessibility of this control in recent Windows 10 releases.

* Added support for recent releases of People (modern Outlook/Contacts) app (via a dedicated app module).

* Modern keyboard: When opening clipboard items list in redstone 5, NVDA will no longer announce "Clipboard" (the label for the list itself) when this panel is opened.

* People: In recent app releases, NVDA will once again announce top suggestions when searching for contacts.

 

For those running development snapshots; July 29th snapshot (regular and pilot) is also going live.

 

Enjoy.

Cheers,

Joseph


SleepMode default per application.

Larry Silvermintz <silvermintz@...>
 

I just found in the NVDA developers guide (https://www.nvaccess.org/files/nvda/documentation/developerGuide.html) how to put specific applications int sleep mode and got it to work.

 

The following code can be copied and pasted in to a text file, then saved in the appModules directory with the name of the application you wish to enable sleep mode for. As always, the file must have a .py extension.

--- start ---

import appModuleHandler

 

class AppModule(appModuleHandler.AppModule):

 

          sleepMode = True

 

--- end ---

 

 

 

Cheers, Larry S

 


Greeting, Force Focus Mode, sleep and acronyms

Larry Silvermintz <silvermintz@...>
 

  Hello NVDA community, I’m a new user, and this is my very first post.

I have been using NVDA with ZoomText for the past few weeks; for things like writing software, NVDA has much better pronunciation control, especially for symbols and punctuation.  Thanks to those who created and help to support NVDA.

 

Happily, NVDA coexist very well with ZT.

 

Questions:

* For some applications, ZT’s speech works better for me, so for those I put NVDA into sleep mode.

How, in a NVDA configuration profile can I specify “sleep mode”?

I found the folder with the config files, so I could edit them directly if needed.

 

Next question:

In Firefox, NVDA would be better for me if always in focus mode.

How can I put NVDA into focus mode and ensure it stays there?

 

One more question please:

The voice I’m using (TruVoice) is spelling-out any string that is all-capitals (i.e. acronyms) instead of pronouncing as single words.  It does not do this with other applications, so I think it’s because of NVDA.  How can I get it to pronounce all-caps-strings as words?

 

 

Cheers, Larry S

Sarasota, FL

 


Re: a question for geen nz

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

There's always my program, the Youtube Downloader User Interface, and you can find it at
http://www.softcon.com/files/
There's other programs on that page too, but the ytdlui program works with 3 different programs to do the actual downloading, including youtube-dl, curl, and wget. You'll need to read the documentation to find the download locations, and you'll also need to make sure at least one of those programs are in the same directory as the ytdlui program, but it works quite nicely, allows multiple urls, (one per line), and logs the status of each download so you have a record of what was downloaded, and when it was done.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018, Bobby Vinton wrote:

Hay I was wondering if you still use the free you tube down loader for windows?  I was wondering if the program is still accessible?  I am asking because you did a demo on the program.  I have not updated the program in a year butt I am using the older version.  Just let me know.




Re: Doing mathematics

Antony Stone
 

If you are allowed to use technical aids in the examination, surely a talking
calculator is the simplest solution?

And, if you're not allowed to use technical aids, what are the sighted people
expected to do? I can't imagine a management exam expecting people to do
arithmetic with pencil & paper... (or if that is expected, what sort of
management are they going to end up in ...?)

Finally, for a non-technical solution, are you allowed (as a blind person) to
take someone with you, and so long as you know what mathematics to ask them to
do, they're allowed to do it for you and give you the answer? They can't help
you to solve the original question, but if you know how to solve it, they can
do the tedious bits of arithmetic for you and give you what you need to get to
the answer.


Antony.

On Saturday 28 July 2018 at 12:33:31, Sociohack AC wrote:

How do you guys do mathematics? Do you use some software or some physical
instrument like abacus? I will be appearing for a management entrance exam
in December. I will be required to solve high school level mathematical
problems as soon as possible. I had learnt math when I had partial vision
with normal pen and paper, then i switched to humanities, and now I intend
to go the management route. For this I will be required to do mathematics
again. Please suggest me any possible solutions. It is a competitive exam,
so speed and accuracy both matters.

Regards,
Sociohack
--
In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

- Terry Pratchett

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Re: can't put the mail app on muy desktop

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Chris,

 

I was able to create my shortcut from the mail app on the task bar. Instead of using the applications key, I hit shift f-10 and arrowed down to create shortcut. That did the trick.

 

Thank you for your help.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Chris via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 2:44 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] can't put the mail app on muy desktop

 

Try this

 

Open run dialog Windows+R

Type this exactly

 

Shell:appsfolder

 

And hit ok

 

This will open a explorer window

 

From the list of items select the mail icon

Then right click or application key or whatever way you do a right click

And from the menu select create shortcut

It will tell you cant create a shortcut here but do you want to create a desktop shortcut instead?

Choose yes

Then close the window and you are done

 

 

 

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: 28 July 2018 06:57
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] can't put the mail app on muy desktop

 

Hi, everyone,

 

I just switched to the mail app but now I can’t put it on my desktop. I tried everything I know to do but nothing has worked. I don’t want to have to keep hitting the windows key and typing “mail” every time I want to go to the mail app. What could I be doing wrong?

 

Thanks for your help in advance.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

 

 


Re: Doing mathematics

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I use an abacus.

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Sociohack AC
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 3:33 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Doing mathematics

 

 How do you guys do mathematics?  Do you use some software or some physical instrument like abacus? I will be appearing for a management entrance exam in December. I will be required to solve high school level mathematical problems as soon as possible. I had learnt math when I had partial vision with normal pen and paper, then i switched to humanities, and now I intend to go the management route. For this I will be required to do mathematics again. Please suggest me any possible solutions. It is a competitive exam, so speed and accuracy both matters. 

Regards,
Sociohack

 


Re: Reading web pages

 

To my knowledge Firefox Add-Ons (and I'm talking pre-Quantum for earlier releases and Quantum era for current) will work in the corresponding derivatives of Firefox like Waterfox.  But, since I do not use them I am not 100% certain.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Reading web pages

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Is that in waterfox as well?

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Reading web pages


Mark,

There are ways to make the screen reader (regardless of which one) do this, but I have found that if you're using either Firefox or Chrome the Read Aloud Add-On/Extension does an incredibly good job of this, better than the screen readers in fact. I also like that you can have a distinctive voice for Read Aloud so that you know whether it's the screen reader or Read Aloud that's reading.

The only disadvantage is that you do have to remember to hit ALT+O to shut up Read Aloud before you leave a page that it's reading. If you don't, it's already buffered it and it will keep on reading even after you've left the page.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

~ Richard Dehmel


Re: Reading web pages

Gene
 

Open the document formatting dialog with control NVDA key d. 
Tab through the items, and check or uncheck anything you want with the space bar.  Then activate the ok button.
 
Remember that you will automatically save settings if you exit the program.  That is the default behavior.  To return to the previous settings and not accidentally save them, use control NVDA key r when you are finished using the changed settings at any time before closing the program.  But if you wait, you may forget and close the program without doing so.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 11:05 AM
Subject: [nvda] Reading web pages

Is it possible to get NVDA to read web pages as simple text without saying 'Link' each time it hits a link?. Wikipedia pages have many links in the text and it would be good to hear it read without keep hearing the word 'Link'


Re: Reading web pages

 

Mark,

        There are ways to make the screen reader (regardless of which one) do this, but I have found that if you're using either Firefox or Chrome the Read Aloud Add-On/Extension does an incredibly good job of this, better than the screen readers in fact.  I also like that you can have a distinctive voice for Read Aloud so that you know whether it's the screen reader or Read Aloud that's reading.

         The only disadvantage is that you do have to remember to hit ALT+O to shut up Read Aloud before you leave a page that it's reading.  If you don't, it's already buffered it and it will keep on reading even after you've left the page.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: Reading web pages

John Isige
 

Yes. You want document formatting under settings, there are check boxes for what gets reported, and links is one of them. There are also headings and a number of other things. You can turn all of them off.

On 7/28/2018 11:05, Mark Reynolds wrote:

Is it possible to get NVDA to read web pages as simple text without saying 'Link' each time it hits a link?. Wikipedia pages have many links in the text and it would be good to hear it read without keep hearing the word 'Link'


Reading web pages

Mark Reynolds
 

Is it possible to get NVDA to read web pages as simple text without saying 'Link' each time it hits a link?. Wikipedia pages have many links in the text and it would be good to hear it read without keep hearing the word 'Link'


Re: Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Gene
 

One more message in this thread from me.  I wasn't going to write any more in this thread but after trying the links list again, I see more serious disadvantages of it and I think they should be addressed. 
 
Those interested in the topic may find useful information as well.  In addition, since NVDA volunteers create instructional material, the following may contribute to better material. 
 
Now, let's consider the disadvantages I spoke of. 
 
First, you may have to select the structure you want to look for.  Let's take the Google page for an example.  If you were on a different page the last time and were searching through links, this time, on Google, you first have to select headings as the structure you want to search through.  So we are already at two extra and completely unnecessary steps.
 
One, open the links list.  Two, select headings as the structure you want to use which requires shift tabbing once and down arrowing once, then tabbing back to the list.  So that is actually three completely unnecessary steps. 
Now, you down arrow through the headings.  When you find a result you want to know more about before going to the actual page the heading/link leads to, you do the following:
You have to use the move to command, alt m.  This moves you to the heading/link and you are now returned to the web page.  You now can down arrow through the information about the result or read it as you wish.  As I said you are back on the web page.  The headings list doesn't move you to the heading as you move through the list.  You have to move to the heading.  So this is yet another completely unnecessary step. 
 
If you just want to follow the link without looking at any additionall information, you do alt m, then enter.  Either way, you execute the alt m command, a completely unnecessary command, as I said.
 
So let's review.  You want to look through results on Google.  You do a search for a topic.
You open the links list.  If you used it as a links list last time, you shift tab once, down arrow once to set it to headings, tab once, and start down arrowing through the headings.  Google results are links that are shown as both headings and links.  Once you get to one you want to follow, you have to issue the command alt m, then press enter.  Or, if you want to see the additional information for the result to help you decide if you want to follow the link, its alt m then read the results.
 
Now, consider the alternative.
Go to Google, do a search and when the results page comes up do the following:
Type the letter h repeatedly.  That command moves you through the headings exactly as you would move if you were using the headings list but you don't have to issue an unnecessary command and take one or both hands off the main keyboard to issue the NVDA f7 command to open the list.  Nor do you do any of the other unnecessary steps I outlined above. 
All you do is type the letter h repeatedly.  When you get to a heading you want to see aditional information about, you just read the information, which is right under where you are. 
Or you just press enter to follow the link.
So do search, type h until you get to a heading that interests you, and either read the results or just press enter.  That description was very short because all those unnecessary steps were eliminated. 
 
Since h moves through headings exactly as the headings list does, where is the advantage to the list?
Since the letter k allows you to move from link to link without leaving the page and you move from link to link, exactly as you do in the links list, where is the advantage of the links list? 
 
You accused me of making a mountain out of a molehill.  Really?  When there are the kinds of important differences I've outlined?  And you accuse me of being rigid.  I have presented a factual, detailed discussion supporting my argument. 
 
If people want to use these lists, they may, of course, do what they want.  But because I make a strong case for what I consider to be best practices and best teaching practices, that does not make me dictatorial or rigid.  I'm not forcing anyone to do anything.  But I am presenting a detailed, reasoned argument which I consider to be very strong.
 
I've observed the kinds of problems a lot of blind people have using the Internet for years.  I've done a little advising and teaching.  I've seen that one of the crucially important things to teach is the importance of context, to not just open a web page and read every page from the top, nor to tab through it and that's all, but rather to work with a page in a way to accomplish what you want to accomplish.  What you do on a page may differ considerably depending on what you are doing, whether it is a familiar page or not, and what is on the page.  There may be pages where you start from the top and read some or all the page.  there may be pages where you use the find command, find something like a link and follow it.  There are pages where you might do other things.  But a lot of people do things like just tab through a page or just start reading or don't look effectively for what they want to find on a page if they know in advance what it is.  And they don't change what they do, they treat pages in the same way. 
 
The links list reinforces all the undesirable predispositions I've observed that I consider essential for good instruction to dispel and guard against.  Note carefully that I didn't say people shouldn't be taught the links list.  Nor did I say they shouldn't use it.  I said that people should not be taught the links list until after they have fully mastered web page navigation and how to decide how to work with a web page, depending on what kind of page it is and what they want to do on the page. If the links list is studied before that time, it reinforces all the wrong habits students may have adopted in the past or may be tempted to adopt before they have learned why they are bad habits.  The idea of the links list is sudductive.  When I first heard about it, while I was still learning page navigation, it sounded wonderful.  But as I learned, I realized how pernicious it is to teach it before the student is ready to learn it without detrimental effect.
 
Of course, if a student doesn't learn well using techniques and approaches I generally teach, I would use other approaches and methods.  I am discussing what I consider to be best practices for most students. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

It may be that I don't understand how sighted people see web pages but it is certainly different than the way a blind person encounters it. 
 
I don't know if I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.  And I don't think your characterization is correct about my having a tendency to do so.
 
I fail to see why you are so defensive and hostile on this subject.  I'm making two or three main points and your messages support them even though you are at least to an extent, arguing against them.
 
The thread began with you explaining a difficulty you are having with increasing numbers of web sites where a structure appears visually as one thing and to the screen-reader as something else.  You discussed how you had problems using one of the screen-reader lists to move through the cart in part because a structure appears different visually than it appears to a screen-reader and you were using the links list so the structure was not seen. 
 
My point is that if you don't use the links list, but use the methods I discussed, the search command, or tabbing through the cart, you won't have the problem.  and you won't have it on other sites.  Your own message argues for what I am saying.
 
I explained my strong view that the links list shouldn’t' be used on unfamiliar pages.
I said it detracts from effective teaching because it uses completely artificial constructs and removes the user from the page.  And I said that it shouldn't be taught until the student has thoroughly mastered navigation using the web page itself.
 
To this, and to my concrete examples and very specific arguments, you wrote a quarrelsome, almost attack that maybe some day it will occur to me that there are other ways of doing things than mine.  That is completely beside the point and irrelevant.  I made a very good case for my views and why I think they are by far best practices.  Attacking me and accusing me of rigidity won't win the argument.  You haven't given any specific counterexamples or arguments against what I said except that different people are different.  That has nothing to do with best practices.  If you don't generalize about best practices and try to account for exceptions that don't represent the general, how can you teach anything? 
 
I've done a little teaching.  If the person had problems understanding or working in the way I think is the best practice to teach, I would use other methods. 
 
And I didn't prescribe or say that people have to use this or that method.  I discussed using the find command, move by headings, skip blocks of links commands, and move by button.  Hardly rigid.  I'm giving different ways of movement that one may use depending on circumstances and page layout and on how you want to work with the page.  I also said specifically that if you want to know a lot about what is on a page, you may want to read some or all of the page.
 
I discussed the mouse because you attacked me as being rigid and dictatorial.  I didn't do so as an attack, however,  And you don't have to apologize for anything.  But it is certainly the case that a sighted person may approach something In not necessarily the best manner for a blind person to learn because of thinking of things as perceived in the sighted way.  I didn't say you generally do this.  It doesn't appear to me that you do.  And I am not discounting the value of getting sighted help when useful or important.  But my point still stands.
 
But based on twenty years of Internet use, thinking about what works well and what doesn't, and observing the kinds of problems many blind people have using the Internet, I dispute the amount of emphasis you seem to place on use of the mouse to get a picture of the web page. 
 
If you are interested, I will discuss what I consider the most effective way to give blind people an understanding of the way a sighted person sees a web page layout as compared with a blind person, using browse mode which reformats the page.  
 
Your tone has been increasingly hostile and dismissive.  If you want to answer, I'll give you the last word.  I've pretty much said everything I have to say and you may have a response.  I think people pretty well have decided what they think of our differences so I won't keep arguing various points.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Gene,

           No one is better at making a mountain out of a molehill than you are.

           You really need to consider "how you read," as it's clear to me that I am far from alone in my perception of your both your tone and the scope of your comments.

           As to my taking on "the sighted way" well, of course I do.  We are all the products of our sensory palettes.  I could no sooner pretend to understand what it is to be blind as a perceptual world than I could to pretend to understand what it is to be deaf, unable to taste or smell, or lacking touch or proprioception.  I am what I am, and I make no apology for that.  I also find your explanation of how you look at a webpage utterly alien to my own experience even when I'm looking at parts rather than the whole.  I tend to look at classes of objects because most webpages are presented arranged by such and, up until very recently, one could count on object types having very distinct visual presentations.  That's how most of them came to have their names, e.g, a button on screen looks like a button on a physical object (or at least it did until the recent flat look became all the rage, now it looks like a rectangle filled in by color and a label when it's done conventionally).  It is bad, bad, bad design to mask one object as though it were another.  It violates every rule in the book.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel