Date   

Re: Viewing multiple calendars in Outlook 2013 with NVDA 2018.2.1

Walker, Michael E
 

Hi Jason,

 

Upon trying your suggestion, when I moved the start time around, it said I was free, but no information for the other attendees.

 

Thanks,

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jason White via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 3:48 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io; nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Viewing multiple calendars in Outlook 2013 with NVDA 2018.2.1

 

I generally just use the scheduling assistant, enter the names of the people invited to the meeting, and it shows whether they’re available or have conflicts. I then move the starting time of the meeting around until it works.

 

From: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of "Walker, Michael E" <michael.e.walker3@...>
Reply-To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Date: Monday, July 30, 2018 at 14:21
To: "nvda@groups.io" <nvda@groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Viewing multiple calendars in Outlook 2013 with NVDA 2018.2.1

 

Hi,

 

Is there a best practice for being able to view four or five Outlook calendars at once, when I need to schedule a meeting? I have not found anything in NVDA’s user guide. Sometimes, when I view someone else’s calendar in Outlook, there is a major lag. Also, I am not familiar with how to best use the scheduling assistant, or if it is accessible.

 

Thank you,

Mike


Re: Viewing multiple calendars in Outlook 2013 with NVDA 2018.2.1

Jason White
 

I generally just use the scheduling assistant, enter the names of the people invited to the meeting, and it shows whether they’re available or have conflicts. I then move the starting time of the meeting around until it works.

 

From: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of "Walker, Michael E" <michael.e.walker3@...>
Reply-To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Date: Monday, July 30, 2018 at 14:21
To: "nvda@groups.io" <nvda@groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Viewing multiple calendars in Outlook 2013 with NVDA 2018.2.1

 

Hi,

 

Is there a best practice for being able to view four or five Outlook calendars at once, when I need to schedule a meeting? I have not found anything in NVDA’s user guide. Sometimes, when I view someone else’s calendar in Outlook, there is a major lag. Also, I am not familiar with how to best use the scheduling assistant, or if it is accessible.

 

Thank you,

Mike


Viewing multiple calendars in Outlook 2013 with NVDA 2018.2.1

Walker, Michael E
 

Hi,

 

Is there a best practice for being able to view four or five Outlook calendars at once, when I need to schedule a meeting? I have not found anything in NVDA’s user guide. Sometimes, when I view someone else’s calendar in Outlook, there is a major lag. Also, I am not familiar with how to best use the scheduling assistant, or if it is accessible.

 

Thank you,

Mike


Re: Doing mathematics

Ervin, Glenn
 

Windows has a good calculator program.

You can make a shortcut to it, but in the run box, just type

Calc

And press enter

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of ely.r@...
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 7:47 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing mathematics

 

Sociohack

First you need to be in touch with who or whatever the testing organization is. Tell them about your vision and ask first if they have had experience with accommodations for a blind or visually impaired person. If so, could they email you a list of accommodations that have been used in the past. You would want to f Specifically, if a talking calculator will be seen as a reasonable accommodation. There are stand-alone talking calculators. If you have an iPhone or iPad there are free calculator apps and at least one scientific talking calculator I believe may still be free. If you want suggestions, let me know on or off list.

Whatever you might choose to use, you would want to have it soon so that you have plenty of time to get comfortable using it.

How are you going to read what I imagine is a print text exam? Do you still have enough vision to read large print? If not may you have a reader/scribe? Does the testing organization provide someone or can it be a person you choose. The second option is the best. Like the calculator, it you can select a reader/scribe the two of you should find a source for sample questions to use for practice.  You may find that there is a study guide for the exam.

Hope this does not feel like information overload. You have a good deal of time before the exam. Vest thing to do is to work with whatever accommodations you choose so that they help not hinder your test taking.

Rick

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sociohack AC
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2018 6:34 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Doing mathematics

 

 How do you guys do mathematics?  Do you use some software or some physical instrument like abacus? I will be appearing for a management entrance exam in December. I will be required to solve high school level mathematical problems as soon as possible. I had learnt math when I had partial vision with normal pen and paper, then i switched to humanities, and now I intend to go the management route. For this I will be required to do mathematics again. Please suggest me any possible solutions. It is a competitive exam, so speed and accuracy both matters. 

Regards,
Sociohack


Re: Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Gene
 

That's true.  Perhaps moving by buttons will be done more since many categories are opened by clicking buttons on many sites now.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

With pages hiding words in closed menus lately, it makes finding words like down for download harder.

We had discussed this earlier on this list when I could not find the download link by searching for the word down on NVDA’s remote add-on page, because it was inside a closed menu.

If this sort of thing increases, it will make the find command much less affective.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 1:38 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

My first message demonstrates the difference. 

 

You said you like to arrow down a page.  I didn't say how people should move down pages.  I talked about how to work with pages where you want to find something and you aren't interested in what else is on the page.  I didn't say how a blind person should look through a page where they want much more information about what is on a page.  Please don't assume that when I describe how to do something in what I think is the best way, and when I specify the context, that I am generalizing beyond the circumstances and context I am describing. 

 

I was very careful to make comments such as, if someone wants more information, they may want to look at all or a lot more of a page.  I'm specifically discussing the significant disadvantages and inefficiencies of using an artificial structure that separates you from the layout of the page and where you would use first letter navigation where you don't know what you are looking for on an unfamiliar page.  How do you know the download structure is perceived by your screen-reader as a link.  On Send Space, it is perceived by the screen-reader is a button.  What is more efficient.  Using find if you haven't used Send Space and search for the word download or even more efficient, downl or to use the links list, use first letter navigation and move through however many links begin with the letter d, not find download, leave the links list, then look for the word download in other ways. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Tyler Wood

Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 12:50 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

Gene,

What works for you may not work for others.

For example, I like arrowing through a page to make sure I'm not missing anything. Yes, it takes longer, but overall I get the layout of the page, make sure I'm not missing any information at all. What difference does it make if someone opens the elements list or uses the find feature if both methods work in the end?

 

 

On 27-Jul-2018 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:

What if you have twenty or thirty web pages you use for listening to stations?  That is what I meant when I spoke of micromemorizing pages.  It appears to me that it takes the links list a little time to open.  Then you move by first letter navigation to what you want.  I am not convinced it's faster to any significant extent or easier than opening find, typing list or listen and finding the link that way without remembering that the wrsv site, for example,  uses the word click, and the Wbcw site does but most other sites use listen.  These are fictitious examples. 

 

Quite some time ago, Send Space changed it's download link to a button.  When it happened, it cause me no problem in the slightest.  I simply typed downl and found the button immediately. 

 

When I found that it is now a button, I started typing the letter b from the top of the page.  But when the change was made, I found the button as quickly as I had found the link previously.

 

Perhaps I wrote too long a message, others will have to decide.  I wanted to make clear what I meant, and I wanted to argue forcefully for it In hopes that maybe, if any possibly influential instructors read the message, they might start making the case to others who teach and maybe, stop the pernicious way this is taught.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 8:20 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

Hi Gene,

 

You are largely correct on this analysis, but at times, I must confess, you have a way of stating what could be stated n a sentence or two in 10 thousand words.

 

What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.

 

I do this all the time and it is more or less common sense.  For example, once you scope out a page and you know that the listen live link on a web page is near the top and the word here as in 'click here' to listen' is the clickable word, then it is much easier to use the links list and when you press the letter h and hear the word here, to press enter on it to start listening.

 

 

On 7/27/2018 1:02 AM, Gene wrote:

This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe. 

 

I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages. 

 

In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.

 

It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat if necessary. 

 

What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them. 

 

What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.

 

As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages. 

 

I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.

 

The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it. 

 

The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Vogel

Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements. 

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 



-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

 


Re: Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Ervin, Glenn
 

With pages hiding words in closed menus lately, it makes finding words like down for download harder.

We had discussed this earlier on this list when I could not find the download link by searching for the word down on NVDA’s remote add-on page, because it was inside a closed menu.

If this sort of thing increases, it will make the find command much less affective.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 1:38 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

My first message demonstrates the difference. 

 

You said you like to arrow down a page.  I didn't say how people should move down pages.  I talked about how to work with pages where you want to find something and you aren't interested in what else is on the page.  I didn't say how a blind person should look through a page where they want much more information about what is on a page.  Please don't assume that when I describe how to do something in what I think is the best way, and when I specify the context, that I am generalizing beyond the circumstances and context I am describing. 

 

I was very careful to make comments such as, if someone wants more information, they may want to look at all or a lot more of a page.  I'm specifically discussing the significant disadvantages and inefficiencies of using an artificial structure that separates you from the layout of the page and where you would use first letter navigation where you don't know what you are looking for on an unfamiliar page.  How do you know the download structure is perceived by your screen-reader as a link.  On Send Space, it is perceived by the screen-reader is a button.  What is more efficient.  Using find if you haven't used Send Space and search for the word download or even more efficient, downl or to use the links list, use first letter navigation and move through however many links begin with the letter d, not find download, leave the links list, then look for the word download in other ways. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Tyler Wood

Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 12:50 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

Gene,

What works for you may not work for others.

For example, I like arrowing through a page to make sure I'm not missing anything. Yes, it takes longer, but overall I get the layout of the page, make sure I'm not missing any information at all. What difference does it make if someone opens the elements list or uses the find feature if both methods work in the end?

 

 

On 27-Jul-2018 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:

What if you have twenty or thirty web pages you use for listening to stations?  That is what I meant when I spoke of micromemorizing pages.  It appears to me that it takes the links list a little time to open.  Then you move by first letter navigation to what you want.  I am not convinced it's faster to any significant extent or easier than opening find, typing list or listen and finding the link that way without remembering that the wrsv site, for example,  uses the word click, and the Wbcw site does but most other sites use listen.  These are fictitious examples. 

 

Quite some time ago, Send Space changed it's download link to a button.  When it happened, it cause me no problem in the slightest.  I simply typed downl and found the button immediately. 

 

When I found that it is now a button, I started typing the letter b from the top of the page.  But when the change was made, I found the button as quickly as I had found the link previously.

 

Perhaps I wrote too long a message, others will have to decide.  I wanted to make clear what I meant, and I wanted to argue forcefully for it In hopes that maybe, if any possibly influential instructors read the message, they might start making the case to others who teach and maybe, stop the pernicious way this is taught.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 8:20 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

Hi Gene,

 

You are largely correct on this analysis, but at times, I must confess, you have a way of stating what could be stated n a sentence or two in 10 thousand words.

 

What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.

 

I do this all the time and it is more or less common sense.  For example, once you scope out a page and you know that the listen live link on a web page is near the top and the word here as in 'click here' to listen' is the clickable word, then it is much easier to use the links list and when you press the letter h and hear the word here, to press enter on it to start listening.

 

 

On 7/27/2018 1:02 AM, Gene wrote:

This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe. 

 

I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages. 

 

In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.

 

It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat if necessary. 

 

What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them. 

 

What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.

 

As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages. 

 

I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.

 

The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it. 

 

The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements. 

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 



-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

 


Re: Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Ervin, Glenn
 

If I want to review a page quickly, I use control + down arrow, moving by paragraph.

The letter P should do this too, but I like the control + down arrow because my right hand is already on the arrow keys if I want to examine that paragraph a little more.

Also, when searching for words, I use only enough of the word to let it find what I need, like in my ISP’s web mail page, there is a compose button, but the letter B does not find it, so I search for the word compo and it goes right to it.

Strangely with Jaws, I haven’t tried it with NVDA yet, but when I go to a page where I always search for the same word, and press F3 right off the bat, which repeats the last search, it says, word not found.  So if I start a new search, it brings up the word I wanted, and I just press enter, and it goes to it.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of James Bentley
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 1:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

Hi all,

 

I have some very serious arthritis  in the joints of all of my fingers.  Plus, I do not want to waste my time arrowing through every single line on a page unless I need to do so.

 

Of course, I respect the fact that all of us have our own special needs and preferences.

 

My point is just that, I appreciate Gene’s time and pain saving methods of quickly finding what I need on a web site.  I first learned of his navigation methods around 3 years ago.  It has saved me a lot of trouble when line by line navigation and some of the other methods mentioned in this thread aren’t really necessary for me.

 

Regards to all.  And, thanks for every ones input.

 

James B

 

 

 

From: Tyler Wood

Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 12:50 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

Gene,

What works for you may not work for others.

For example, I like arrowing through a page to make sure I'm not missing anything. Yes, it takes longer, but overall I get the layout of the page, make sure I'm not missing any information at all. What difference does it make if someone opens the elements list or uses the find feature if both methods work in the end?

 

 

On 27-Jul-2018 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:

What if you have twenty or thirty web pages you use for listening to stations?  That is what I meant when I spoke of micromemorizing pages.  It appears to me that it takes the links list a little time to open.  Then you move by first letter navigation to what you want.  I am not convinced it's faster to any significant extent or easier than opening find, typing list or listen and finding the link that way without remembering that the wrsv site, for example,  uses the word click, and the Wbcw site does but most other sites use listen.  These are fictitious examples. 

 

Quite some time ago, Send Space changed it's download link to a button.  When it happened, it cause me no problem in the slightest.  I simply typed downl and found the button immediately. 

 

When I found that it is now a button, I started typing the letter b from the top of the page.  But when the change was made, I found the button as quickly as I had found the link previously.

 

Perhaps I wrote too long a message, others will have to decide.  I wanted to make clear what I meant, and I wanted to argue forcefully for it In hopes that maybe, if any possibly influential instructors read the message, they might start making the case to others who teach and maybe, stop the pernicious way this is taught.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 8:20 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

Hi Gene,

 

You are largely correct on this analysis, but at times, I must confess, you have a way of stating what could be stated n a sentence or two in 10 thousand words.

 

What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.

 

I do this all the time and it is more or less common sense.  For example, once you scope out a page and you know that the listen live link on a web page is near the top and the word here as in 'click here' to listen' is the clickable word, then it is much easier to use the links list and when you press the letter h and hear the word here, to press enter on it to start listening.

 

 

On 7/27/2018 1:02 AM, Gene wrote:

This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe. 

 

I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages. 

 

In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.

 

It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat if necessary. 

 

What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them. 

 

What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.

 

As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages. 

 

I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.

 

The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it. 

 

The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Vogel

Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

 

Rick,

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements.

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 



-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

 


Re: Doing mathematics

Brian K. Lingard
 

Dear Sociohack & List:

 

Not sure, of the math and/or other exams length, however you may request rest time depending upon exam length and other conditions you have. I was unaware of this until a manager of services to disabled students mentioned it.

Brian

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf of Sociohack AC
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 9:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [NVDA] Doing mathematics

 

 Thank you Rick! I have contacted the authorities, and I have to know that I am allowed the scribe of my choice and the use of an abacus during the exam. Further, a compensatory time of 20 minutes per hour will also be provided to all visually impaired candidates.
I will look at the question papers and get in touch with you again.
-- Regards, Sociohack

_._,_._,_


Re: Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply add-on updates #addonrelease

Jacob Kruger
 

Ok, reinstalled current latest alpha, and, it now appears under tools menu/works.


Thanks


Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 7/30/2018 4:10 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

That try build is way old now, as newer NVDA alpha builds include most of the changes included in that try build.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jacob Kruger
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 1:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply add-on updates #AddonRelease

 

Joseph, using your try build of NVDA: try-w10-15530,16facaf1

 

And, there's no additional menu item under tools, etc., for this add-on?

 

Stay well

 

 

Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 7/29/2018 9:02 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

 

I’m delighted to announce the immediate release of Add-on Updater that brings one of the frequently requested features to life: ability to check, download, and apply community add-on updates:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/addonUpdater.en.html

 

To use this add-on, after installing it, go to NVDA menu/Tools/Check for add-on updates. If updates are found, a list of updates will be shown with an option to update add-ons. After installing add-on updates, say “yes” when asked to restart.

 

The following add-ons are excluded from add-on update check via this add-on because they provide their own add-on update feature: Braille Extender, StationPlaylist Studio, WeatherPlus, Windows 10 App Essentials. Also, add-ons not hosted on community add-ons website (addons.nvda-project.org) are also excluded.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 



Re: Windows 10 Settings applet no longer accessible with NVDA

Chris
 

First things first, try a restart of windows

If that don’t work , restart nvda with addons disabled

See how that goes

 

From: Steve Nutt
Sent: 30 July 2018 09:55
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Windows 10 Settings applet no longer accessible with NVDA

 

Hi,

 

Using Windows 10 V1803, I notice that when you tab round in settings now, none of the lists or tabs are voiced by NVDA at all.  I do have App Essentials installed.

 

Any thoughts?  They are still voiced by JAWS.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best


Steve

 

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: steve@...

Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk

 

 


Re: Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply add-onupdates #addonrelease

 

Hi,
I see.
As for checking which add-ons to update, as I pointed out on add-ons list,
this requires using a feature that's being developed by a third party.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 2:24 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply
add-onupdates #AddonRelease

As two of us have pointed out in this thread. Maybe you need to remove Focus
Highlight from the auto update as its clearly downdating it. I have just put
back 5.2 and its now wanting to downdate it again. if we could lock out such
add ons then that would be good.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 3:50 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply
add-onupdates #AddonRelease


Hi,

The add-on lives in Tools menu, not Preferences. Windows 10 App
Essentials won't be updated through this add-on because that add-on
already has add-on update facility.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael
Massey
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 7:49 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply
add-onupdates #AddonRelease



Hi, all. Well, at the risk of sounding puzzled, I have the add-on
mentioned in the subject line installed. Yet when I check the
preferences menu, I can't find the add-on in the list. I only can
find the Windows 10 essentials add-on. Thinking it wasn't installed
correctly, I installed the add-on again and found out that the add-on
was already installed and do I wish to install it again. Everybody
else is able to use the add-on, so what am I doing wrong to try to run
it. Could it be that because I only have the Windows 10 essentials
add-on installed that the updater add-on can't run or doesn't show in
the list of add-ons? Oh, btw, the add-on is installed in a folder
called downloads where I have various and sundry executables.
Thanks.







Re: Windows 10 Settings applet no longer accessible with NVDA

 

Hi,

Which version of NVDA do you have, and does reopening Settings app fix the problem?

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 1:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Windows 10 Settings applet no longer accessible with NVDA

 

Hi,

 

Using Windows 10 V1803, I notice that when you tab round in settings now, none of the lists or tabs are voiced by NVDA at all.  I do have App Essentials installed.

 

Any thoughts?  They are still voiced by JAWS.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best


Steve

 

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: steve@...

Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk

 


Re: Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply add-on updates #addonrelease

 

Hi,

That try build is way old now, as newer NVDA alpha builds include most of the changes included in that try build.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jacob Kruger
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 1:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply add-on updates #AddonRelease

 

Joseph, using your try build of NVDA: try-w10-15530,16facaf1

 

And, there's no additional menu item under tools, etc., for this add-on?

 

Stay well

 

 

Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 7/29/2018 9:02 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,

 

I’m delighted to announce the immediate release of Add-on Updater that brings one of the frequently requested features to life: ability to check, download, and apply community add-on updates:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/addonUpdater.en.html

 

To use this add-on, after installing it, go to NVDA menu/Tools/Check for add-on updates. If updates are found, a list of updates will be shown with an option to update add-ons. After installing add-on updates, say “yes” when asked to restart.

 

The following add-ons are excluded from add-on update check via this add-on because they provide their own add-on update feature: Braille Extender, StationPlaylist Studio, WeatherPlus, Windows 10 App Essentials. Also, add-ons not hosted on community add-ons website (addons.nvda-project.org) are also excluded.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 


Re: Doing mathematics

ely.r@...
 

Sociohack

So glad that so far the experience has been a good one. Best of luck getting successfully through the exam.

Rick

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sociohack AC
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 9:30 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Doing mathematics

 

 Thank you Rick! I have contacted the authorities, and I have got to know that i'm allowed the scribe of my choice and the use of an abacus during the exam. Further, a compensatory time of 20 minutes per hour will also be provided to all visuallly impaired candidates.
i will look at the question papers and get in touch with you again.
--
Regards,
Sociohack


Re: Doing mathematics

Akshaya Choudhary
 

 Thank you Rick! I have contacted the authorities, and I have got to know that i'm allowed the scribe of my choice and the use of an abacus during the exam. Further, a compensatory time of 20 minutes per hour will also be provided to all visuallly impaired candidates.
i will look at the question papers and get in touch with you again.
--
Regards,
Sociohack


Re: nvda very laggy on some websites with latest chrome

Peter Beasley
 

Just when onto the site using Chrome and had no problems.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Josh Kennedy
Sent: 26 July 2018 18:15
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] nvda very laggy on some websites with latest chrome

 

Hi,

On websites such as this one:

 

https://www.windowscentral.com/chime-surface-go-only-decent-10-inch-windows-tablet

 

NVDA is very very laggy almost to the point of the site is nearly unreadable and its frustrating to navigate the site. I am glad I have the cheap inexpensive jaws home use license and Microsoft narrator as backups when NVDA gets real laggy like this. But even so, could this please be fixed so NVDA is nice and snappy on websites?

 

Thanks

 

Josh

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply add-onupdates #addonrelease

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

As two of us have pointed out in this thread. Maybe you need to remove Focus Highlight from the auto update as its clearly downdating it. I have just put back 5.2 and its now wanting to downdate it again. if we could lock out such add ons then that would be good.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 3:50 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply add-onupdates #AddonRelease


Hi,

The add-on lives in Tools menu, not Preferences. Windows 10 App Essentials
won't be updated through this add-on because that add-on already has add-on
update facility.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael Massey
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 7:49 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply
add-onupdates #AddonRelease



Hi, all. Well, at the risk of sounding puzzled, I have the add-on mentioned
in the subject line installed. Yet when I check the preferences menu, I
can't find the add-on in the list. I only can find the Windows 10
essentials add-on. Thinking it wasn't installed correctly, I installed the
add-on again and found out that the add-on was already installed and do I
wish to install it again. Everybody else is able to use the add-on, so what
am I doing wrong to try to run it. Could it be that because I only have the
Windows 10 essentials add-on installed that the updater add-on can't run or
doesn't show in the list of add-ons? Oh, btw, the add-on is installed in a
folder called downloads where I have various and sundry executables.
Thanks.






Re: Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply add-onupdates #addonrelease

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Hi I have an issue. The whole system locks up with this message when its updating.
Cannot install NVDA add-on from C:\Users\Brian\Downloads\addonUpdater-18.08.nvda-addon.
You must be running NVDA to be able to install add-ons.

Now the thing is I would not be installing tthem in any other way, now would I?
I had to close this system message blind as nvda stopped. This was a portable of the latest alpha. Not tried it on the beta ofr stable yet, but thought I'd let you know.

Cannot install NVDA add-on from C:\Users\Brian\Downloads\addonUpdater-18.08.nvda-addon.
You must be running NVDA to be able to install add-ons.

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 3:50 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply add-onupdates #AddonRelease


Hi,

The add-on lives in Tools menu, not Preferences. Windows 10 App Essentials
won't be updated through this add-on because that add-on already has add-on
update facility.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Michael Massey
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 7:49 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply
add-onupdates #AddonRelease



Hi, all. Well, at the risk of sounding puzzled, I have the add-on mentioned
in the subject line installed. Yet when I check the preferences menu, I
can't find the add-on in the list. I only can find the Windows 10
essentials add-on. Thinking it wasn't installed correctly, I installed the
add-on again and found out that the add-on was already installed and do I
wish to install it again. Everybody else is able to use the add-on, so what
am I doing wrong to try to run it. Could it be that because I only have the
Windows 10 essentials add-on installed that the updater add-on can't run or
doesn't show in the list of add-ons? Oh, btw, the add-on is installed in a
folder called downloads where I have various and sundry executables.
Thanks.






Re: Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply add-on updates #addonrelease

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Can you just select the ones you want to update. i do not really want to change a couple of them for my own reasons.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply add-on updates #AddonRelease


Hi,

Yes. This is partly due to the add-ons server.

Cheers,

Jsoeph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene New
Zealand
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 1:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply
add-on updates #AddonRelease



Hi Joseph



Just tried the add on and it works well.



I did notice on one of the add ons 7 of them out of 8 had updates and you
could see the number going up to the latest add on but noticed one of them
went down a number like 5.1 to 5.0 would that just mean stable?

I think it was the focus high lighter one.

It is nice and easy to use.

Gene nz

On 7/30/2018 7:02 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi all,



I'm delighted to announce the immediate release of Add-on Updater that
brings one of the frequently requested features to life: ability to check,
download, and apply community add-on updates:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/addonUpdater.en.html



To use this add-on, after installing it, go to NVDA menu/Tools/Check for
add-on updates. If updates are found, a list of updates will be shown with
an option to update add-ons. After installing add-on updates, say "yes" when
asked to restart.



The following add-ons are excluded from add-on update check via this add-on
because they provide their own add-on update feature: Braille Extender,
StationPlaylist Studio, WeatherPlus, Windows 10 App Essentials. Also,
add-ons not hosted on community add-ons website (addons.nvda-project.org)
are also excluded.



Cheers,

Joseph








Re: Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply add-on updates #addonrelease

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

IE it says...

Focus Highlight; Current version: 5.2; New version: 5.0

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com>
To: <nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 8:02 PM
Subject: [nvda] Introducing Add-on Updater: check, download, apply add-on updates #AddonRelease


Hi all,



I'm delighted to announce the immediate release of Add-on Updater that
brings one of the frequently requested features to life: ability to check,
download, and apply community add-on updates:

https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/addonUpdater.en.html



To use this add-on, after installing it, go to NVDA menu/Tools/Check for
add-on updates. If updates are found, a list of updates will be shown with
an option to update add-ons. After installing add-on updates, say "yes" when
asked to restart.



The following add-ons are excluded from add-on update check via this add-on
because they provide their own add-on update feature: Braille Extender,
StationPlaylist Studio, WeatherPlus, Windows 10 App Essentials. Also,
add-ons not hosted on community add-ons website (addons.nvda-project.org)
are also excluded.



Cheers,

Joseph