Date   
Re: academics and employment

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 03:39 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:
I have tried recent Narrator
Which, by the way, is about to get a big, honkin' overhaul when Version 1809 hits the streets.  From what I've heard (as I don't do insider builds anymore) the command structure is being significantly modified to bring it more in line with the NVDA & JAWS worlds, but don't quote me on that.

In any case, I postponed doing any major digging in to Narrator until Version 1809 of Windows 10 comes out simply because it's been said the changes are significant and I really don't want to teach myself something much of which may become obsolete in a few short months.  It certainly shows that Microsoft is not backing off on continuing development and improvement on Narrator.

For anyone who might be interested in additional details, I believe several members of the Windows 10 for Screen Reader Users group know quite a bit more about what's around the corner than I do.  Send an e-mail message to win10+help@win10.groups.io to get a message back with subscription info and a lot more.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 

Re: groups.io will be down for maintenance this evening, starting at 9PM Pacific Time (4AM Saturday 8/18 UTC), for about two hours.

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 03:09 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Lets hope this is not them making changes that might affect accessibility.
No, it isn't, at least based on the response I received.

There is no winning here, really, as someone's always going to be unhappy.  I expect outages upon occasion for maintenance but I've been in the IT business for decades and they are standard operating procedure for non-mission-critical functions, and an e-mailing list/online forum can hardly be classed as mission critical.

Mark, the owner of the site, has gotten grief before for pushing out "to every member" and even "to every group owner" messages.  For myself, I firmly believe in "to every member" messages for instances such as this, so everyone knows exactly what's going on.  Others, however, disagree vehemently.

In any case, the maintenance is over and here we are. . .
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 

Re: academics and employment

Mike
 

Brian, what have you found Narrator to do that other screen readers do not?

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 2:15 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

One thing that worries me about the way Microsoft are trying to develop narrator. The development is good, but they really do need to make it easier for third party readers to use what it uses. So often I hear, well Narrator can do it, but nothing else does. I suggest this is because Narrator has a lot more access to the innards of windows than a third party screenreader does, probably due to there being fewer security issues as its built in and can use hooking into things that would be a security risk if allowed outside.
I have tried recent Narrator, and although it is than it used to be, it seems often a bit clumsy and slow compared to nvda.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)" <mewx8b@...>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:30 AM
Subject: [nvda] academics and employment


Hello,

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now
on my personal e-mail.

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web
needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment.
Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the
hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I
pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain
an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I
work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that
builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use
NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA
is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing's frontend
architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am
using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers
have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary
readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and
SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down
arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest
things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for
education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of
improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for
education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the
shit NVDA does.

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up
the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

Mighty Mike

Re: academics and employment

Mike
 

When I used JAWS with Oracle SQL Developer yesterday and had IE open to watch a getting started video, after it was over and I pressed CTRL+W to close the tab, JAWS was still running, but acted like it was sitting there. I could press ALT+TAB, and it would speak that, but not where I was. I had to press INSERT+F4 and close JAWS out. When I fired up NVDA, it worked like a charm.

 

Maybe gratitude was not the right word to use in my original message. I meant that NVDA does a hell of a lot for us, even though there is always room for improvement. Therapists are often the one that preach an attitude of gratitude. I used my Employee Assistance Program to help with depression. That is how I learned about this stuff.

 

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 6:49 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

Well, as I reported before, my experience is that nvda is more stable in work environments than Jaws. an employer reported to me that they tested both on their systems, and Jaws refuse to run on the customer-facing machines. even considering all the factors that would have to be in play, I feel pretty confident saying that nvda is more stable than Jaws. I would even say, much more stable than Jaws. if that is a put-down of an extremely expensive, highly proprietary, and somewhat unstable workplace application, I make no apologies.   if they build a better product, I will consider using it and endorsing it.  if I go into a work environment, and I need something that nvda doesn't offer, and Jaws will work in that situation, I will use it. I won't complain, even though I personally find a Jaws unwieldy to use.

Best,

Erik

On August 17, 2018 10:54:18 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

I am not convinced that this discription of JAWS crashing all the time is accurate as a generalization.  It is one person's experience on how many computers, one, more than one?  You can't ever generalize performance from the report of one person.  If the report is based on JAWS being used on perhaps three or four different computers then, while still not generalizable, it has a bit of a very small sample.  But I don't believe in trying to build up NVDA's reputation  by circulating messages that criticize JAWS in this way.  I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as part of a discussion.  I object to advocating that it be widely circulated.

 

And those who do believe in this strategy might consider that those who want to build up JAWS or another product can find things in NVDA to criticize. 

 

Let's consider a few important shortcomings that are especially important in employment situations.

 

You can't change how structures are interpreted in NVDA, such as telling it to read something as a list when it isn't to see if it can work with that imposed structure better.  You can't create frames.  I once set up JAWS for someone using a VPN to read the exact lines on the screen necessary to log in.  I may have done other things as well to have JAWS read specific parts of the screen automatically or by issuing a command so the person could use the program she needed with proper control and without very excessive verbiage.  You can't do that with NVDA. Someone has to write a script.  Research It was discussed, when it came out, as being able to be tailored to do something like read a proprietary data base used at a job. 

 

Loyalty to NVDA is not productive if it stifles proper critiques of what needs improvement.  No one is served.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:27 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

Great endorsement!  I love this one!  Everyone please pass this message along!

 

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 8/17/2018 7:30 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Hello,

 

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

 

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

 

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

 

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

 

Mighty Mike

 

Re: tripple talk driver add-on for NVDA?

Dan Thompson
 

Thanks so very very much.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] tripple talk driver add-on for NVDA?

 

It doesn't seem to come up in google results for some reason but its here:

 

If you search the page from the top for trip, why type the whole word, you'll find it. 

The add on, as found on the page, doesn't include indexing.  there may be a way to get a version that supports indexing but evidently not on this page.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:29 PM

Subject: [nvda] tripple talk driver add-on for NVDA?

 

Greetings to everyone,

Is there a triple talk add-on available so I could use NVDA with my triple talk external device?

I have tried searching the web with no luck.  I might not be typing in the correct string for the search for best results.

Thanks for any help in advance..

 

Re: tripple talk driver add-on for NVDA?

Gene
 

It doesn't seem to come up in google results for some reason but its here:
 
If you search the page from the top for trip, why type the whole word, you'll find it. 
The add on, as found on the page, doesn't include indexing.  there may be a way to get a version that supports indexing but evidently not on this page.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:29 PM
Subject: [nvda] tripple talk driver add-on for NVDA?

Greetings to everyone,

Is there a triple talk add-on available so I could use NVDA with my triple talk external device?

I have tried searching the web with no luck.  I might not be typing in the correct string for the search for best results.

Thanks for any help in advance..

 

tripple talk driver add-on for NVDA?

Dan Thompson
 

Greetings to everyone,

Is there a triple talk add-on available so I could use NVDA with my triple talk external device?

I have tried searching the web with no luck.  I might not be typing in the correct string for the search for best results.

Thanks for any help in advance..

 

Re: academics and employment

Gene
 

Please read my message again.  I said nothing of the sort.  I have discussed what I said in other messages that you will see. 
 
As for which I prefer, for general nonwork and academic use, I prefer NVDA.  I haven't used JAWS to any extent for years. 
 
There are academic and work settings where NVDA would be fine.  There are many in which it would fall short and some of those could be corrected by user definable parameters available in JAWS, allowing someone who is not knowledgeable about writing NVDA scripts to do what is necessary.  That means that JAWS can be modified in many instances by someone far more quickly, such as a DVR employee or contractor who might go to the work site and do so.  With NVDA, the modifications would be done by someone writing a script, and even if it would be advantageous to have the person do so on the web site to see if the work meets the specific program use requirements well, the person would usually be scripting at a distance, using information about what is needed.  And time might be lost finding someone willing to write the script. 
 
Gene 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Hi, Chris,

Yes, it appears from what I read that Gene prefers Jaws over NVDA. We all
have the right to our own opinions. We should be able to agree to disagree.
After all, that's what life is all about--differing viewpoints. I used Jaws
for years and both Jaws and NVDA are great programs. NVDA serves my needs
very well.

Rosemarie

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris
Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to
ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot have
different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't we
just agree to disagree?"





Re: academics and employment

erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Well, as I reported before, my experience is that nvda is more stable in work environments than Jaws. an employer reported to me that they tested both on their systems, and Jaws refuse to run on the customer-facing machines. even considering all the factors that would have to be in play, I feel pretty confident saying that nvda is more stable than Jaws. I would even say, much more stable than Jaws. if that is a put-down of an extremely expensive, highly proprietary, and somewhat unstable workplace application, I make no apologies.   if they build a better product, I will consider using it and endorsing it.  if I go into a work environment, and I need something that nvda doesn't offer, and Jaws will work in that situation, I will use it. I won't complain, even though I personally find a Jaws unwieldy to use.

Best,

Erik

On August 17, 2018 10:54:18 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

I am not convinced that this discription of JAWS crashing all the time is accurate as a generalization.  It is one person's experience on how many computers, one, more than one?  You can't ever generalize performance from the report of one person.  If the report is based on JAWS being used on perhaps three or four different computers then, while still not generalizable, it has a bit of a very small sample.  But I don't believe in trying to build up NVDA's reputation  by circulating messages that criticize JAWS in this way.  I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as part of a discussion.  I object to advocating that it be widely circulated.
 
And those who do believe in this strategy might consider that those who want to build up JAWS or another product can find things in NVDA to criticize. 
 
Let's consider a few important shortcomings that are especially important in employment situations.
 
You can't change how structures are interpreted in NVDA, such as telling it to read something as a list when it isn't to see if it can work with that imposed structure better.  You can't create frames.  I once set up JAWS for someone using a VPN to read the exact lines on the screen necessary to log in.  I may have done other things as well to have JAWS read specific parts of the screen automatically or by issuing a command so the person could use the program she needed with proper control and without very excessive verbiage.  You can't do that with NVDA. Someone has to write a script.  Research It was discussed, when it came out, as being able to be tailored to do something like read a proprietary data base used at a job. 
 
Loyalty to NVDA is not productive if it stifles proper critiques of what needs improvement.  No one is served.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Great endorsement!  I love this one!  Everyone please pass this message along!


Roger








On 8/17/2018 7:30 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Hello,

 

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

 

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

 

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

 

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

 

Mighty Mike


Re: academics and employment

Gene
 

I don't prefer JAWS over NVDA.  I objected to your pass it along widely statement and I explained why.  It has nothing to do with whether you have your own opinions and express them on the list.  I gave specific reasons I don't think the message should be passed along widely; I didn't object in the least to it being sent to or discussed on the list.  Please read my message again.  I made no general statements about people expressing opinions nor did I make any general statements about which screen-reader is better.  I discussed NVDA shortcomings in one specific context, employment.  I did so because NVDA is very good at meeting a lot of peoples' needs and I didn't generalize.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

THis really has nothing to do with the current conversation, but I have to ask.
Since when did human society degrade to such a point that people cannot
have different viewpoints on issues.
I happen to agree with Michael that I do like NVDA better than JAWS.
THat is not to say JAWS is a bad product. I just prefer NVDA over JAWS.
Jean, it appears that you prefer JAWS over NVDA. That's cool to. Can't
we just agree to disagree?"


Re: academics and employment

Gene
 

Please read my message again.  You will see that I attributed no such motives to you nor did I say you said that JAWS crashed the first time.  What I objected to was a message in response to yours that said that your message should be passed along by everyone.  I then gave some reasons I think it shouldn't.  I then explicitly stated that I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as a part of discussion.  But I don't think it is suitable to be used to promote NVDA.  I don't believe that you were malicious or were against me or the group.  what I objected to was the pass it along widely request and I gave my reasons but I didn't object to your message being sent to or discussed on list.
 
As far as JAWS crashing, you said:
JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things.  I didn't object to the heavyweight description.  It may be much mor heavyweight, as you say.  I personally am not sure if that matters a lot on modern fast machines but I didn't object to that.  But saying it crashes over the simplist things can very easily be interpreted as that it crashes a lot since the simplist things may well be encountered very often.  I'm not saying that was your meaning, I'm saying that is a very easy way to interpret what you said.  And that was one of my reasons for objecting to the pass it along request because, while that is your experience, I don't know if it is generally true. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Gene, firstly, I did not mean anything malicious toward the group or you. Secondly, my entire sentence about crashing was taken out of context. I did not mean to imply that JAWS crashed the first time I used it. I do not generalize on every system…

 

You are right! I am not saying you are wrong about JAWS, OK? JAWS lets you create custom labels and other things NVDA does not. I also agree with you on using JAWS on a VPN. I am not against you or the group on anything! Calm down! Yes, JAWS will let you create frames. Yes, JAWS will let you create graphics labels and other stuff.

 

This was nothing intended for the group to get upset about. I definitely didn’t mean anything in a bad way.

 

Best,

Mike

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 9:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

I am not convinced that this discription of JAWS crashing all the time is accurate as a generalization.  It is one person's experience on how many computers, one, more than one?  You can't ever generalize performance from the report of one person.  If the report is based on JAWS being used on perhaps three or four different computers then, while still not generalizable, it has a bit of a very small sample.  But I don't believe in trying to build up NVDA's reputation  by circulating messages that criticize JAWS in this way.  I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as part of a discussion.  I object to advocating that it be widely circulated.

 

And those who do believe in this strategy might consider that those who want to build up JAWS or another product can find things in NVDA to criticize. 

 

Let's consider a few important shortcomings that are especially important in employment situations.

 

You can't change how structures are interpreted in NVDA, such as telling it to read something as a list when it isn't to see if it can work with that imposed structure better.  You can't create frames.  I once set up JAWS for someone using a VPN to read the exact lines on the screen necessary to log in.  I may have done other things as well to have JAWS read specific parts of the screen automatically or by issuing a command so the person could use the program she needed with proper control and without very excessive verbiage.  You can't do that with NVDA. Someone has to write a script.  Research It was discussed, when it came out, as being able to be tailored to do something like read a proprietary data base used at a job. 

 

Loyalty to NVDA is not productive if it stifles proper critiques of what needs improvement.  No one is served.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:27 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

 

Great endorsement!  I love this one!  Everyone please pass this message along!

 

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 8/17/2018 7:30 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:

Hello,

 

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

 

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

 

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

 

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

 

Mighty Mike

 

Re: academics and employment

Felix G.
 

Hi!
Slightly off topic:
I think there exists a common misunderstanding about being grateful vs being satisfied. If I were unable to walk and someone took me halfway to my destination, I would certainly be grateful but at the same time still dissatisfied. It's a perfectly normal and valid state to be in.
Also, expecting gratitude is an invalid standpoint. Gratitude is an emotion, and we are not generally in control over how we feel. It's the same as saying "I expect you not to be thirsty" or "I expect you to love me now."
Best,
Felix

Gene <gsasner@...> schrieb am Sa., 18. Aug. 2018 um 04:34 Uhr:

But if people are so concerned with gratitude that they don't speak their mind about what needs improvement, no one is being served.  JAWS is still better in a lot of employment situations and a few years ago, even one or two of the main developers said this.  Since then, NVDA has become more capable in employment situations but it still has serious drawbacks in a lot of cases. 
 
I can appreciate NVDA and the work that went into it but that has nothing to do with whether I or others should speak freely about what needs improvement. 
 
Historically, blind people have been expected to be grateful.  I appreciate things but I don't like the word grateful  It smaks of the days of rampant paternalism when blind people were expected to be little better than charity cases.  As I said, I can appreciate something like NVDA but grateful is a different word with different and very unfavorable connotations for what it means to be a blind person in modern times. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 7:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] academics and employment

Hello,

 

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

 

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

 

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

 

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

 

Mighty Mike

Re: unlabeled graphics on the web

特種兵
 


  yes, I writen this question on this list few month ago.
  but now NVDA still skipped unlabeled graphic on web.


thank you for much
Logo Kuo from Taiwan
Walker, Michael E 於 2018/8/17 上午 03:54 寫道:

Gene, you are very correct that unlabeled graphics are skipped, no matter what navigation keys you choose. It is a serious problem. Suppose I am taking online training at work, and I have to be able to click the unlabeled graphic, and not have NVDA skip it. Suppose I know what the unlabeled graphic is, by text above or below it, and I do not have a sighted person available to click it for me. This comes up in the workplace all the time. How can we submit feedback to the developers on this? Thanks.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2018 2:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] unlabeled graphics on the web

 

If graphics aren't labeled, then, of course, you may have a hard time determining what graphic to click.  But the question, as posed, assumes that.  Can NVDA be made to announce all graphics?  I don't think it does now.  If there is a graphic without any text, I don't think it announces it and there is no setting I know of to adjust the level of graphic announcement.  JAWS has such a setting and you were discussing that in your comparison of NVDA and JAWS.  If I am correct that there is no setting in NVDA for this, this is another way in which NVDA isn't as user definable as JAWS where it should be.  This may be a serious problem on a site where, to take an action a graphic needs to be clicked.  It might mean having to click it with the simulated mouse but to do that, it must be announced as you move through the page so you can move to it and then move the mouse to it. 

 

You may need sighted help to know which graphic to click but as far as I know, NVDA doesn't read unlabeled graphics on web pages and moving character by character doesn't read them either.  As far as I know, they are skipped as though they don't exist.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2018 1:56 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] unlabeled graphics on the web

 

I don't think you can do much about idiotic web site design. I think you
might be able to in Jaws, though it is often a trial and error thing as
unless you have sighted help to identify non marked controls you are
stuffed. It might be worth writing to the site admins and pointing out that
a little bit ofalt tagging would go a long way.
 Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Walker, Michael E" <michael.e.walker3@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2018 1:27 PM
Subject: [nvda] unlabeled graphics on the web


Hi, how do I get NVDA to identify all graphics on a web page, including the
unlabeled ones, if I need to click one for example? Also, which section of
the user guide explains this in further detail? Thanks.






Re: Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

特種兵
 


If I want to keep the original format copied,
my approach is to simulate the way the visional person operates.
That is to simulate the mouse operation.
For example, I want to copy a table on a web page and want to keep its format.
I will move to the beginning of the table and call the mouse and lock the left mouse button.
Then move to the end of the table and call the mouse once again and unlock the left mouse button.
Finally, to select copy from context menu, and this is done.
This practice comes from how I asked people who used the mouse to copy it.
They said, hold down the left mouse button to pull the range you want to select and then release the left button and select Copy.
Although a bit cumbersome, it guarantees the integrity of the format.

sorry for my English

thank you for much
Logo Kuo from Taiwan
Gene 於 2018/8/18 上午 02:15 寫道:

Which is why I said to select the entire page, control a, Copy it to the clipboard, then paste it into a program where the formatting is retained and edit it there.  The whole point of browse mode is to give you a virtual cursor so you can move around the page as though there were a real cursor and it also reformats the page in some ways to make reading logical for blind readers. 
 
Without browse mode, you can move as though there were a cursor because there isn't one, except in edit fields.
 
The question is, when you select using the virtual cursor, are you selecting text as it appears in the virtual cursor or as it appears on the actual page?  Formatting, the kind of font, italics, etc. may be retained either way.  Try down arrowing through a table in browse mode and select as you go.  Copy to the clipboard and paste in a program.  Are the columns arranged as they should be or are they all columns, one underneath the other as they appear in browse mode. 
 
I just tried this on one site.  Note the difference:
Browse mode on:
Su
Mo
Tu
We
Th
Fr
Sa
 29 
 30 
 31 
 1 
 2 
 3 
 4 
 5 
 6 
 7 
 8 
 9 
 10 
 11 
 12 
 13 
 14 
 15 
 16 
 17 
 18 
 19 
 20 
 21 
 22 
 23 
 24 
 25 
 26 
 27 
 28 
 29 
 30 
 31 
1
 
Browse Mode off:

Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

29 30 31 1 2 3 4

5 6 7 8 9 10 11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

26 27 28 29 30 31 1

 

That is how the table appears to a sighted person.

 

I would think other structures are altered where advantageous to a blind reader using Browse Mode as well. 

 

When corresponding with sighted people, it is often important to be able to reproduce material from Internet pages as it appears on the page, not as browse mode reformats it for blind users.

 

JAWS gives the user a choice, copy from virtual PC cursor or copy from page,  NVDA doesn't and this is an ability that must be added if NVDA is going to be a work and academically properly capable screen-reader.

 

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

How do you know what you are selecting? When I go to asp.net and press h in Firefox to get to the first heading, I then press NVDA+space bar, to activate focus mode. When I press shift+down arrow after that, NVDA does not announce what I am selecting. The heading was not selected, when I pasted into Outlook, but other text was, and the formatting was retained.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 11:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Question about retaining formatting on the web when copying to the clipboard

 

Michael,

             I was in the Google Chrome browser for that testing cycle.   I just did the same from Firefox for this testing cycle, but I believe that it's in how we're doing our selection that's different.

             I don't use NVDA's select function, but go back to native Windows text selection once I know where I want to start from.  I've mostly been using SHIFT + Down Arrow, with NVDA in focus mode, and that's as Gene indicated.  But if I use Windows text selection keyboard commands the text is being selected just as if I'd done so with the mouse (and that includes selection of images and other bits, too) and it pastes straight into Word.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel

 

 


Re: volume problem

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

When did this start? Have you recently plugged ina usb headset or other sound device? Windows 10 is notorious for routing programs through devices and forgetting to put them back as they were.

I've never had that issue in Windows 7 at all, indeed its actually very good if you plug a sound box into the wrong usb, it finds it and installs the drivers, but 10? Well the term audio designed by an idiot comes to mind.
Another reason I'm not using 10.
If its not this then the previous message might be right.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Darren Tomblin" <dtomblin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 5:49 AM
Subject: [nvda] volume problem


hi, i'm having a problem with the volume with winamp and firefox. i'm
not getting any sound out of thesms but nvda is working properly. I
checked and they don't seem

--
73,
Daro be muted. ren Tomblin(KC9JJJ)



Re: academics and employment

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

One thing that worries me about the way Microsoft are trying to develop narrator. The development is good, but they really do need to make it easier for third party readers to use what it uses. So often I hear, well Narrator can do it, but nothing else does. I suggest this is because Narrator has a lot more access to the innards of windows than a third party screenreader does, probably due to there being fewer security issues as its built in and can use hooking into things that would be a security risk if allowed outside.
I have tried recent Narrator, and although it is than it used to be, it seems often a bit clumsy and slow compared to nvda.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student)" <mewx8b@...>
To: <nvda@groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:30 AM
Subject: [nvda] academics and employment


Hello,

It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.

I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing's frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.

Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.

Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.

Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.

Mighty Mike

Re: groups.io will be down for maintenance this evening, starting at 9PM Pacific Time (4AM Saturday 8/18 UTC), for about two hours.

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Oh I see, well they certainly seem to have the ability to tell folk stuff as every account I've ever used on their lists recently got the mail about the update to the privacy policies. Lets hope this is not them making changes that might affect accessibility.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <@britechguy>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 10:10 PM
Subject: [nvda] groups.io will be down for maintenance this evening, starting at 9PM Pacific Time (4AM Saturday 8/18 UTC), for about two hours.


The subject says it all, but I'll repeat it here in case it gets cut off by certain e-mail clients:

groups.io will be down for maintenance this evening, starting at 9PM Pacific Time (4AM Saturday 8/18 UTC), for about two hours.

There has been a banner message to this effect up all day on the web interface, but nothing has come across on traffic on the groups themselves, which leaves e-mail users in the dark.

You can still reply to messages, but all of it will be held in a queue during the maintenance period.
--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

~ Richard Dehmel

Re: Strange occasional issue in Windows 10 with programmes taking a long time to load -- maybe media players in particular?

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Do you think an anti virus is checking something and will not let things work until its happy? If you play a particular file does it always happen.
Another thought. Do you have Jaws on this system?
I notice that recent versions once again insert some kind of driver in the display chain, like in the old XP days. Ever since this happened my whole windows 7 machine boots up slower and can, on occasion seem to exhibit the symptoms you say. I did a reinstall of Jaws from an update yesterday and touch wood the issue has gone. It seems this driver is there whether you are running Jaws or not. I'm not a Jaws user myself but as has been said here, it often is a good idea to have several screenreaders.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 9:17 PM
Subject: [nvda] Strange occasional issue in Windows 10 with programmes taking a long time to load -- maybe media players in particular?


Hey folks. I'm sorry, this isn't directly an NVDA issue, but the list
moderators are often quite relaxed about letting things drift off on
occasion, and I'm not currently signed up to any forums where I can ask
directly, so I wondered if there might be someone here who has had
experience with a similar issue.



I'm running Windows 10, 1803. I have the last version of winamp, 5.666, with
the patch designed for Windows 10.



Although I'm not certain these things are related, I feel like this actually
started with VLC. Some months back I downloaded the 64-bit version of VLC
3.0. I was immediately impressed with how fast it loaded. Only a few seconds
between hitting enter in file explorer and playing a video, and I thought
this was nice. However, seemingly a few weeks later, VlC was taking thirty
seconds or more to open. Recently they put out an update, which I installed,
and VlC was back to loading fast again.



Now though, and I'm not absolutely certain when this started, but it was
recent, Winamp, which I still use for audio playback, is taking a really
long time to load! Much longer than VLC did, even when it was having its
weird issue. I estimate that whether I hit enter on a file in explorer, or
use the context menu to play a folder, or use the run box to open the
programme directly, it takes about two minutes for the window to appear
and/or audio to start playing. Weirdly, once or twice it seems like the
audio starts playing, but ther'es no window for several minutes, and during
that time of coruse none of the Winamp controls work.

Any thoughts or suggestions as to what might be causing it? I have a feeling
reinstalling might fix the issue, but I'd still like to know what might have
caused this to happen.







Actually, I'm not even certain how related these things are, but



Re: NVDA Just Stopped reading my google sheet

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

When you say nothing has changed are you sure of this, ie no updates to anything in the background like an anti virus program?
I do not use Google tools so cannot say what might have happened, but I've had some very unlikely interactions in the past, so I just wondered if there was any way to tell. I think I'd have taken the machine back a day or so first to see if that fixed it.
Having said all of that I still have not found out why, one day some months ago, nvda stopped reading dropbox preferences, internal log in browser and share panel.
Sometimes windows does things that defy logic.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin O'Sullivan" <osumartin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 7:12 PM
Subject: [nvda] NVDA Just Stopped reading my google sheet


Nothing has changed on my end one second NVDA was reading the sheet fine,
then it just stopped. Now it will not read the sells.

It still reads the menu, but not the contents of the sells.

Here is what NVDA Says when I open the sheet.

Start of NVDA Output

Copy of Gmail Scheduler by ctrlq.org - Google Sheets - Google Chrome icon
2 of 6
Copy of Gmail Scheduler by ctrlq.org - Google Sheets - Google Chrome icon
2 of 6
Copy of Gmail Scheduler by ctrlq.org - Google Sheets - Google Chrome row
1 column 1
Copy of Gmail Scheduler by ctrlq.org - Google Sheets
application
E3 combo box multi line editable
n

Copy of Gmail Scheduler by ctrlq.org - Google Sheets
application
application
Working...

You are online
You are online
To enable screen reader support, press Ctrl+Alt+Z To learn about keyboard
shortcuts, press Ctrl+slash
Screen reader support enabled.
Working...

Copy of Gmail Scheduler by ctrlq.org - Google Sheets - Google Chrome icon
2 of 6
Copy of Gmail Scheduler by ctrlq.org - Google Sheets - Google Chrome icon
2 of 6

End of NVDA Output

I have done the following to try and resolve the problem.

1 restarted NVDA, no effect.
2 Restarted Chrome No Effect
3 using Firefox no effect
4 Restarted the computer No effect
5 Removed and Reinstalled NVDA No effect
6 Run NVDA from a USB Stick No effect

I need this to work what can I do.

--
Martin O'Sullivan
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Re: academics and employment

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I'll just say one more thing. Yes, I believe employers should give NVDA a
chance. I remember telling a rehabilitation counselor one time that if he
and other counselors would encourage their clients to use NVDA, they would
save lots of money. Then the money they save could be used for things like
microsoft word or things needed to do a job more efficiently.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris
Shook
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 7:59 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

I'll just say this.
I do not understand why an employer would care what screen reader you use.
So long as it doesn't interfere with their system, it should be the blind
person's choice which screen reader to use.
I have JAWS installed, but rarely use it because NVDA serves my purposes
just fine.
Not to mention, I love how NVDA let's you know when you have a spelling
error while typing. JAWS will not do that. It will only tell you which word
is misspelled if you read word by word.
What I'm trying to say is I wish employers would give it a chance before
making a judgment.
Chris