Date   

Re: Ivona NVDA add-ons

 

I would be interested in this as well.





On 9/24/2018 10:13 PM, Lino Morales wrote:

Hi. Are their Ivona voices packaged as NVDA add-ons still available? If so what’s the URL and how much do they cost in USD? Thanks.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Ivona NVDA add-ons

Lino Morales
 

Hi. Are their Ivona voices packaged as NVDA add-ons still available? If so what’s the URL and how much do they cost in USD? Thanks.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: I have a couple addons that are several years old that I want to keep, so I'm guessing I shouldn't update NVDA at this time...

 

Looking at your situation, unless those add-ons are updated, you can't update. That might become an issue soon.


I do not recall if you run Windows 10 or not. If you do, you might have issues. If not, no really big issues.





On 9/24/2018 7:35 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
Hey,


I've been hearing a lot over the grapevine about issues with the latest 
NVDA being incompatible with various addons due to changes, and I have a 
couple synth addons that are several years old, as well as an old 
version of the Emoticons addon. I've been pretty anxious about messing 
with computer stuff lately, and the last time I went to update an addon 
I had to remove it from the Appdata because uninstalling it in NVDA 
didn't work. I haven't updated since 2018.1 and part of me is scared to...





NVDA and Focus Blue 5th

E.T.
 

I run a Windows 7 virtual machine with the latest NVDA on a Mac. I need to install a driver for the display but it seems not to install. The dialog shows the installation progress then closes without telling me what the end result was. In the NVDA settings, the Focus is not in the list of displays to choose from. Can someone offers some ideas here? Thanks.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Ancient.Aliens@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Michael Munn
 

I'm glad that NVDA is a free screen reader. Unlike the other conmercial screem reader NVDA allowed user to develop on their own. This is a good thing. Also NVDA uses the popular python programming.programming language. This is a great programming language


Re: Toggling On and Off Format Documents #addonrelease

Quentin Christensen
 

Note that even if you did toggle off reporting elements like headings and links, they will still "work".  As in, you can still press H or 1, or 2 etc to move to the next heading - NVDA will just read the text and not report that it is a heading, and you can still use the elements list.

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 3:05 AM David Kingsbury <davidkingsbury77@...> wrote:
OK, I guess that makes sense. I would never want to toggle off the things in the elements group (headings, links, etc.).



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: NVDA 2018.3 running slow in Windows 7

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Cearbhall,

It's entirely possible that I wasn't paying enough attention recently, but the main issue with Firefox that I was aware of was the one with 32-bit versions crashing under NVDA 2018.3 which was why we released 2018.3.1.

If Firefox is working but slow, and your user is running NVDA 2018.3.1, that's a different issue.

I'd try the usual things first - ensure the computer has been rebooted since installing NVDA, try restarting NVDA with add-ons disabled.  Assuming you've done all that, a copy of the log, ideally at debug level, might shed some light on what's going on.

In terms of which version to use, the latest version SHOULD be fine, as far as I know.  It's what I'm using although I don't use my Windows 7 machine all the time (and even then, it's 64-bit).

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 3:56 AM Cearbhall O'Meadhra <cearbhall.omeadhra@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin et al,

 

A colleague reported today that the Latest Firefox is running very slow when she have NVDA running in Windows 7. She has good eyesight and finds that Firefox runs smoothly and snappily when NVDA is not running.

 

Is this the issue that has been reported recently?

 

If so, what version of Firefox should she run with Windows 7 and what version of NVDA would be recommended also.

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

Those who know more technically may wish to comment but object navigation, as I understand it, was originally implemented because NVDA couldn't have a feature like the JAWS cursor because of how it got information from the screen.  Somehow later, flat screen review was added so the equivalent of the JAWS cursor was added.  But object navigation allowed certain programs to be used that other screen-readers couldn't work with at the time, at least not without scripting, if then, I don't know if scripting could have done it. 
 
At times, the limitations of a screen-reader may actuallly result in it having certain unique abilities even though the feature introduced to cope with the limitation may be harder to understand and may be used by fewer people. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi Gene,
I do see what you mean. And you're right when you mention Ford and NASA
as well. As someone interested in the concept of time travel, that opens
up a whole new sector of interesting other branches to explore that I
never thought of!
I guess my main points are:
1. Commercial screen readers are not the be-all and end-all of NVDA.
2. Time travel is an interesting concept.
Of course, they are both opinions rather than fact, and practically you
are correct in that they are useless and meaningless questions in
day-to-day life, and meaningless speculations when you're looking for
factual data. But I do find it very interesting to explore all the same.
The factual data as I know it is: I've used NVDA for five years, I will
continue to use it, I am very thankful for it, it's stable, it suits my
purposes well, and I haven't had to touch another screen reader since.
What was slightly daunting at first was the learning curve, but that's
to be expected with anything new, regardless of person or field.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 11:38 PM, Gene wrote:
> I'm not sure what your point is.  If NVDA had been around as long as
> other screen-readers, I don't know what the developers might have done
> But I don't think the question has a meaningful answer. Would someone
> other than Henry Ford have built a better mass production automobile if
> someone else had had the idea and the first place?  If NASA had hired
> this or that other person, would the Apollo spaceship have been built
> better?  It is more likely that the for profit screen-readers would have
> inovated more and faster simply because they have much larger
> development staffs in general.
> The reason NVDA is free and cost so much less to develop is because
> those working on it did so either as volunteers or for minimum wage. 
> Somewhere, someone pays for everything somehow.  You know, I would
> imagine, the expression, there is no free lunch.  In the case of NVDA,
> costs were borne by the developers and by grants and contributions.
> My point is that NVDA was developed after decades of development and
> experience that demonstrate what approaches work well or are the best
> for various things.  That made it easier for the NVDA developers to
> design things to make their screen-reader work with what was available
> in new versions of Windows technically.  They didn’t have a lot of old
> legacy code and methodology and they didn't have to reinvent approaches
> that had already been developed.  There are advantages to being new and
> that's another reason I say your question doesn't have a meaningful
> answer.  NVDA could take the extensive legacy from other screen-readers
> of what works well and concentrate on innovating from there.  This made
> the NVDA developers able to develop a high quality screen-reader with a
> much smaller staff.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Damien Garwood <mailto:damien@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 2:10 PM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> Hi,
> Aha, I see what you mean. It just so happens that commercial screen
> readers had these ideas first and NVDA saw how useful they were and
> implemented them.
> On the other hand, I can't help but wonder what original ideas NVDA
> might have come up with if it were older that were actually better than
> what the commercial screen readers ever did? Of course it would have
> taken a lot more design, but I'm sure Mick and Jamie are capable enough
> that they could have done as good as, if not better than, the commercial
> ones, regardless of when it was built.
> Cheers,
> Damien.
>
> On 24/09/2018 07:50 PM, Gene wrote:
>  > I'm nnot talking about exact methods and I don't know how proprietary
>  > they are or how generally known such methods are.  I'm talking about
>  > ways of doing things such as MSAA which is now largely replaced as I
>  > understand it by UIA and techniques that are in public view. Quick
>  > navigation keys when using browse mode, b for button, h for heading etc.
>  > aren't proprietary and anyone can use a commercial screen-reader that
>  > uses them and see them described in documentation.  Concepts like the
>  > JAWS cursor or the Window-eyes mouse pointer are in plain view.
>  > Commands for seeing formatting information is another example.
>  > My point is that a lot of work and development went into for profit
>  > screen-readers which is in plain view and NVDA wouldn't be anywhere near
>  > as advanced as it is if these decades of work hadn't been done.
>  > Gene
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>  > *From:* Damien Garwood <mailto:damien@...>
>  > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 1:16 PM
>  > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  >
>  > Hi Gene,
>  > How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as
>  > commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm
>  > not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting
>  > or misunderstanding something here.
>  > For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and
>  > definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of
>  > access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they
>  > would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their
>  > own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most
>  > large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any
> different?
>  > Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille
>  > and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and
>  > closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility
>  > communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen
>  > readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and
>  > access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA
>  > works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
>  > Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am
>  > aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but
>  > that's another discussion entirely.
>  > Cheers,
>  > Damien.
>  >
>  > On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
>  >  > The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying
> assumption
>  >  > of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be
>  >  > provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay
>  >  > for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where
> blind
>  > > people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
>  > > In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical
> matter, it
>  >  > isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it
>  >  > for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
>  >  > NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be
> anywhere
>  >  > near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in
>  >  > competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of
> innovation and
>  >  > experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built
> on all
>  >  > this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the
>  >  > very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it
>  >  > is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital
> actually,
>  >  > role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
>  >  > Gene
>  >  > ----- Original Message -----
>  >  > *From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
>  > > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
>  >  > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  > >
>  >  > This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
>  >  >
>  >  > He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own
>  >  > hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming
>  >  > abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of
> their own
>  >  > heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
>  >  >
>  >  > Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a
>  >  > solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it
> lack
>  >  > of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow
>  >  > through on stuff. Whatever.
>  > >
>  >  > But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it
>  >  > sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these
> workarounds for
>  >  > access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger
>  >  > issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential
>  >  > process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it
> goes.
>  > >
>  >  > Cristóbal
>  >  >
>  >  > *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of *Darren
>  >  > Harris via Groups.Io
>  >  > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
>  >  > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  > >
>  >  > No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But
>  >  > the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m
> sorry
>  >  > but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
>  >  >
>  > >
>  >  > On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...
> <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
>  > <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
>  > > <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>> wrote:
>  >  >
>  >  >     Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
>  >  >
>  > >     Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
>  >  >
>  >  > Cristóbal
>  > >
>  >  >     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > > <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>  >  >     *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
>  >  >     *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
>  >  >     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  > >
>  >  >     I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
>  >  > captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
>  > >
>  >  >
>  >  >     On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn
> <glenn.ervin@... <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>  > <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>  > > <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>> wrote:
>  >  >
>  > >         The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
>  >  > computer.
>  > >
>  >  >         I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
>  > >         stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
>  >  >
>  > >         But I have used that app on other computers that I had a
> monitor
>  > >         connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
>  >  >
>  > >         So for most folks, that is a good solution.
>  >  >
>  > >         Glenn
>  > >
>  >  >         It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t
> normally
>  > >         have a monitor connected to it.
>  >  >
>  >  > *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > > <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>  >  > *Desert Moon
>  >  > *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
>  > >         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  > >
>  >  >         Hello All,
>  >  >
>  > >         When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
>  > >         Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
>  > >         on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
>  > >         --
>  > >         Desert
>  > >
>  >  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>
>
>



Re: Keeping NVDA from saying "selected" after switching to a new gridcell?

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Brandon,

Following up on your issue with NVDA reading "selected" in every cell in Google Sheets, one of our contributors, Leonard, has created a test build of NVDA aiming to address this.  In the issue I created at: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8766#issuecomment-423949233 he has linked to a build, which you can download from: https://ci.appveyor.com/api/buildjobs/5ucc52tt3yooc49u/artifacts/output%2Fnvda_snapshot_try-tableCell-16088%2C7e5ee484.exe - it behaves essentially the same as a regular version of NVDA, and for the purposes of testing, you should be able to select "continue" rather than installing it to check how it reads in Google sheets.

Please let me know (or ideally, reply to that issue) how you go and whether it resolves the issue.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 9:24 PM Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
Hi Brandon,

I don't have an answer for you, except to say that I can reproduce the same thing, and I've filed an issue for it on our issue tracker: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8766

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 8:52 PM Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs@...> wrote:
Hello,
GSheets has a new Braille View that uses aria grid. I would love to use this mode with NVDA, but every time I move to a new cell, NVDA says: "selected" after the cell contents and before the coords.
how do I turn this "selected" off? I don't need to know the cell I'm on is selected.
The only time when the cell under my cursor is not selected is when there is a multiselect mode where you press space to select cells and arrow keys to move around the cells. I don't see this very often, so would prefer "select" is off by default.
Thanks,



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: I have a couple addons that are several years old that I want to keep, so I'm guessing I shouldn't update NVDA at this time...

Gene
 

Is there any reason to update?  Just because an update, I'm not talking about security updates, but a program update that introduces new features occurs, that doesn't mean you have to update.  Usually, you can see information about what is new in a program on the web site.  People would save themselves trouble, perhaps a lot of trouble over time, if they don't just reflexively update. 
 
In terms of NVDA, there are some major technical changes coming and being worked on in the program.  Many add-ons that work currently won't work in future versions unless they are updated by the developers.  I don't know how many will be.  I don't know when this will occur to a significant extent.  it already has regarding certain add-ons. 
 
I would suggest reading about what's new and deciding whether to update NVDA, not just updating because there is one. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 6:35 PM
Subject: [nvda] I have a couple addons that are several years old that I want to keep, so I'm guessing I shouldn't update NVDA at this time...

Hey,


I've been hearing a lot over the grapevine about issues with the latest
NVDA being incompatible with various addons due to changes, and I have a
couple synth addons that are several years old, as well as an old
version of the Emoticons addon. I've been pretty anxious about messing
with computer stuff lately, and the last time I went to update an addon
I had to remove it from the Appdata because uninstalling it in NVDA
didn't work. I haven't updated since 2018.1 and part of me is scared to...





Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Well to be honest being an entitled person all the time doesn't always give you every right anyway and doesn't always work to your advantage.

Sure I will take and fight for my rights but not everything is free.

My aunt works for a medical centre and some people that come from places where they get x right expect it to be global when it may not be.

Some with various disabilities may assume they automatically will get  something which will also mean they won't need to pay, fill out anything and just get it.

I am entitled to a lot of things.

I have to pay for a lot of things and some of my entitlements have restrictions which mean sure I have my rights andI am entitled to x but I have obligations.

Ie when going oversease I must tell the government where I am in order to see if I can continue recieving money for that duration and there are clear limits.

There are horror stories where people have blatently assumed, or did it alegally or simply had an issue where their entitlements or issues with them have not only gotten in the way but have resulted in issues.

For me, I had one such issue, my benifits were stopped because of a computer crash.

It was fixed but I had to ask them about it.

To say because I am blind I am entitled to my rights is fine.

Its not fine to say that I am entitled to be first, I am disabled there for I will get x for nothing because I am and its silly to think otherwise.

I sadly have family that take things at face value.

In their mind everything is a static and not fluid object.

Their entire life is a blanket statement.

True some of those things can become static if I don't watch out and true some stuff does not change for long periods but they do change.

For these kind of people though you see one thing once and assume it will stay there and not move.

On 9/25/2018 5:56 AM, Gene wrote:
The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying assumption of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay for something sighted people don't pay for. Can you imagine where blind people would be if this had been followed throughout history?

In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical matter, it isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.

NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and experience in how to access the computer efficiently. NVDA built on all this experience. That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the very important need it fills. but if people don't acknowledge what it is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually, role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Cristóbal
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?


This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?

He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar programming abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.

Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow through on stuff. Whatever.

But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.




Cristóbal


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?


No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@gmail.com> wrote:

Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.

Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.


Cristóbal


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?


I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov> wrote:

The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless” computer.

I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.

But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.

So for most folks, that is a good solution.


Glenn

It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally have a monitor connected to it.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Desert Moon
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?


Hello All,

When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert





Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Damien Garwood <damien@...>
 

Hi Gene,
I do see what you mean. And you're right when you mention Ford and NASA as well. As someone interested in the concept of time travel, that opens up a whole new sector of interesting other branches to explore that I never thought of!
I guess my main points are:
1. Commercial screen readers are not the be-all and end-all of NVDA.
2. Time travel is an interesting concept.
Of course, they are both opinions rather than fact, and practically you are correct in that they are useless and meaningless questions in day-to-day life, and meaningless speculations when you're looking for factual data. But I do find it very interesting to explore all the same.
The factual data as I know it is: I've used NVDA for five years, I will continue to use it, I am very thankful for it, it's stable, it suits my purposes well, and I haven't had to touch another screen reader since. What was slightly daunting at first was the learning curve, but that's to be expected with anything new, regardless of person or field.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 11:38 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm not sure what your point is.  If NVDA had been around as long as other screen-readers, I don't know what the developers might have done But I don't think the question has a meaningful answer. Would someone other than Henry Ford have built a better mass production automobile if someone else had had the idea and the first place?  If NASA had hired this or that other person, would the Apollo spaceship have been built better?  It is more likely that the for profit screen-readers would have inovated more and faster simply because they have much larger development staffs in general.
The reason NVDA is free and cost so much less to develop is because those working on it did so either as volunteers or for minimum wage. Somewhere, someone pays for everything somehow.  You know, I would imagine, the expression, there is no free lunch.  In the case of NVDA, costs were borne by the developers and by grants and contributions.
My point is that NVDA was developed after decades of development and experience that demonstrate what approaches work well or are the best for various things.  That made it easier for the NVDA developers to design things to make their screen-reader work with what was available in new versions of Windows technically.  They didn’t have a lot of old legacy code and methodology and they didn't have to reinvent approaches that had already been developed.  There are advantages to being new and that's another reason I say your question doesn't have a meaningful answer.  NVDA could take the extensive legacy from other screen-readers of what works well and concentrate on innovating from there.  This made the NVDA developers able to develop a high quality screen-reader with a much smaller staff.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Damien Garwood <mailto:damien@daygar.plus.com>
*Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 2:10 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
Hi,
Aha, I see what you mean. It just so happens that commercial screen
readers had these ideas first and NVDA saw how useful they were and
implemented them.
On the other hand, I can't help but wonder what original ideas NVDA
might have come up with if it were older that were actually better than
what the commercial screen readers ever did? Of course it would have
taken a lot more design, but I'm sure Mick and Jamie are capable enough
that they could have done as good as, if not better than, the commercial
ones, regardless of when it was built.
Cheers,
Damien.
On 24/09/2018 07:50 PM, Gene wrote:
> I'm nnot talking about exact methods and I don't know how proprietary
> they are or how generally known such methods are.  I'm talking about
> ways of doing things such as MSAA which is now largely replaced as I
> understand it by UIA and techniques that are in public view. Quick
> navigation keys when using browse mode, b for button, h for heading etc.
> aren't proprietary and anyone can use a commercial screen-reader that
> uses them and see them described in documentation.  Concepts like the
> JAWS cursor or the Window-eyes mouse pointer are in plain view.
> Commands for seeing formatting information is another example.
> My point is that a lot of work and development went into for profit
> screen-readers which is in plain view and NVDA wouldn't be anywhere near
> as advanced as it is if these decades of work hadn't been done.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Damien Garwood <mailto:damien@daygar.plus.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 1:16 PM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> Hi Gene,
> How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as
> commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm
> not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting
> or misunderstanding something here.
> For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and
> definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of
> access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they
> would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their
> own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most
> large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any
different?
> Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille
> and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and
> closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility
> communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen
> readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and
> access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA
> works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
> Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am
> aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but
> that's another discussion entirely.
> Cheers,
> Damien.
>
> On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
>  > The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying
assumption
>  > of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be
>  > provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay
>  > for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where
blind
> > people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
> > In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical
matter, it
>  > isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it
>  > for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
>  > NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be
anywhere
>  > near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in
>  > competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of
innovation and
>  > experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built
on all
>  > this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the
>  > very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it
>  > is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital
actually,
>  > role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
>  > Gene
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>  > *From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>
> > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
>  > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
> >
>  > This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
>  >
>  > He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own
>  > hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming
>  > abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of
their own
>  > heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
>  >
>  > Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a
>  > solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it
lack
>  > of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow
>  > through on stuff. Whatever.
> >
>  > But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it
>  > sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these
workarounds for
>  > access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger
>  > issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential
>  > process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it
goes.
> >
>  > Cristóbal
>  >
>  > *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of *Darren
>  > Harris via Groups.Io
>  > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
>  > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
> >
>  > No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But
>  > the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m
sorry
>  > but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
>  >
> >
>  > On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@gmail.com
<mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>
> <mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>
> > <mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  >
>  >     Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
>  >
> >     Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
>  >
>  > Cristóbal
> >
>  >     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> > <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>  >     *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
>  >     *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
>  >     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
> >
>  >     I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
>  > captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
> >
>  >
>  >     On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn
<glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov <mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>
> <mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>
> > <mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>> wrote:
>  >
> >         The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
>  > computer.
> >
>  >         I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
> >         stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
>  >
> >         But I have used that app on other computers that I had a
monitor
> >         connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
>  >
> >         So for most folks, that is a good solution.
>  >
> >         Glenn
> >
>  >         It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t
normally
> >         have a monitor connected to it.
>  >
>  > *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> > <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>  > *Desert Moon
>  > *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
> >         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
> >
>  >         Hello All,
>  >
> >         When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
> >         Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
> >         on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
> >         --
> >         Desert
> >
>  >
>
>
>


I have a couple addons that are several years old that I want to keep, so I'm guessing I shouldn't update NVDA at this time...

Sharni-Lee Ward
 

Hey,


I've been hearing a lot over the grapevine about issues with the latest
NVDA being incompatible with various addons due to changes, and I have a
couple synth addons that are several years old, as well as an old
version of the Emoticons addon. I've been pretty anxious about messing
with computer stuff lately, and the last time I went to update an addon
I had to remove it from the Appdata because uninstalling it in NVDA
didn't work. I haven't updated since 2018.1 and part of me is scared to...


NVDA sluggish and temporarily freezing when reading mail or text

Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
 

Hi Joseph and quentin.  I have noticed that when I open up an email message on Thunderbird, NVDA slows down and genearally takes some time to respond when I am scrolling through my messages.  I have also noticed that when reading text on both local files and on the internet, NVDA now freezes slightly more frequently then it used to.  In short,  NVDA either slowing down or freezing up happens far more frequently now.

Here is the log I copied for your atention.  Cheers!


INFO - __main__ (12:03:38.164):
Starting NVDA
INFO - core.main (12:03:38.380):
Config dir: C:\Users\Administrator\AppData\Roaming\nvda
INFO - config.ConfigManager._loadConfig (12:03:38.380):
Loading config: C:\Users\Administrator\AppData\Roaming\nvda\nvda.ini
INFO - core.main (12:03:38.476):
NVDA version 2018.3.1
INFO - core.main (12:03:38.477):
Using Windows version 10.0.17134 workstation
INFO - core.main (12:03:38.477):
Using Python version 2.7.15 (v2.7.15:ca079a3ea3, Apr 30 2018, 16:22:17) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)]
INFO - core.main (12:03:38.477):
Using comtypes version 1.1.3
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (12:03:39.224):
Loaded synthDriver eloquence
INFO - core.main (12:03:39.224):
Using wx version 4.0.3 msw (phoenix) wxWidgets 3.0.5
INFO - brailleInput.initialize (12:03:39.226):
Braille input initialized
INFO - braille.initialize (12:03:39.226):
Using liblouis version 3.6.0
INFO - braille.BrailleHandler.setDisplayByName (12:03:39.227):
Loaded braille display driver noBraille, current display has 0 cells.
INFO - _UIAHandler.UIAHandler.MTAThreadFunc (12:03:39.348):
UIAutomation: IUIAutomation5
ERROR - globalPluginHandler.initialize (12:03:39.950):
Error initializing global plugin <class 'globalPlugins.remoteClient.GlobalPlugin'>
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "globalPluginHandler.pyo", line 32, in initialize
  File "C:\Users\Administrator\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\remote\globalPlugins\remoteClient\__init__.py", line 56, in __init__
  File "C:\Users\Administrator\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\remote\globalPlugins\remoteClient\__init__.py", line 104, in create_menu
AttributeError: 'MenuItem' object has no attribute 'SetCheckable'
INFO - core.main (12:03:39.954):
NVDA initialized
INFO - updateCheck.AutoUpdateChecker._started (12:03:39.996):
Performing automatic update check
ERROR - scriptHandler.executeScript (14:54:52.210):
error executing script: <bound method FormsComponent.script_onLocationChange of <appModules.devenv.FormsComponent object at 0x04B8FC70>> with gesture u'down arrow'
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "scriptHandler.pyo", line 187, in executeScript
  File "C:\Users\Administrator\AppData\Roaming\nvda\addons\visualStudio\appModules\devenv.py", line 808, in script_onLocationChange
AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'group'
ERROR - NVDAObjects.behaviors.LiveText._monitor (15:09:53.395):
Error getting initial lines
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "NVDAObjects\behaviors.pyo", line 260, in _monitor
  File "NVDAObjects\window\winConsole.pyo", line 49, in _getTextLines
  File "winConsoleHandler.pyo", line 121, in getConsoleVisibleLines
  File "wincon.pyo", line 70, in GetConsoleScreenBufferInfo
WindowsError: [Error 6] The handle is invalid.
ERROR - unhandled exception (15:09:55.701):
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "_ctypes/callbacks.c", line 315, in 'calling callback function'
  File "winInputHook.pyo", line 45, in keyboardHook
  File "keyboardHandler.pyo", line 195, in internal_keyDownEvent
AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'helperLocalBindingHandle'
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (06:15:56.283):
Loaded synthDriver oneCore
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (06:17:10.148):
Loaded synthDriver oldeloquence
WARNING - stdout (06:17:51.161):
hooked waveOutOpen
WARNING - stdout (06:17:51.161):
hooked waveOutClose
INFO - speechDictHandler.dictFormatUpgrade._doSynthVoiceDictBackupAndMove (06:17:51.411):
Upgrading voice dictionaries for sapi5
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (06:17:51.413):
Loaded synthDriver sapi5
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (06:19:06.539):
Loaded synthDriver dectalk
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (06:20:07.506):
Loaded synthDriver eloquence
INFO - globalCommands.GlobalCommands.script_navigatorObject_devInfo (06:55:03.552):
Developer info for navigator object:
name: None
role: ROLE_PARAGRAPH
states:
isFocusable: False
hasFocus: False
Python object: <NVDAObjects.IAccessible.mozilla.Mozilla object at 0x0578F250>
Python class mro: (<class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.mozilla.Mozilla'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.ia2Web.Ia2Web'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.IAccessible'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class 'documentBase.TextContainerObject'>, <class 'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class 'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type 'object'>)
description: u''
location: RectLTWH(left=8, top=270, width=1164, height=18)
value: None
appModule: <'thunderbird' (appName u'thunderbird', process ID 11712) at address 50c67f0>
appModule.productName: u'Thunderbird'
appModule.productVersion: u'52.9.1'
TextInfo: <class 'NVDAObjects.IAccessible.IA2TextTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 9306250L
windowClassName: u'MozillaWindowClass'
windowControlID: 0
windowStyle: 399441920
windowThreadID: 9716
windowText: u'Re: [nvda] NVDA 2018.3 running slow in Windows 7 - All Mail - jaffar.sidek10@gmail.com - Mozilla Thunderbird'
displayText: u''
IAccessibleObject: <POINTER(IAccessible2) ptr=0xd60283c at 4f6b710>
IAccessibleChildID: 0
IAccessible event parameters: windowHandle=9306250, objectID=-4, childID=-4740
IAccessible accName: None
IAccessible accRole: u'p'
IAccessible accState:  (0)
IAccessible accDescription: u''
IAccessible accValue: None
IAccessible2 windowHandle: 9306250
IAccessible2 uniqueID: -4740
IAccessible2 role: IA2_ROLE_PARAGRAPH
IAccessible2 states: IA2_STATE_SELECTABLE_TEXT, IA2_STATE_OPAQUE (5120)
IAccessible2 attributes: u'margin-left:0px;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;formatting:block;margin-right:0px;tag:p;class:MsoNormal;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;display:block;'


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

I'm not sure what your point is.  If NVDA had been around as long as other screen-readers, I don't know what the developers might have done But I don't think the question has a meaningful answer.  Would someone other than Henry Ford have built a better mass production automobile if someone else had had the idea and the first place?  If NASA had hired this or that other person, would the Apollo spaceship have been built better?  It is more likely that the for profit screen-readers would have inovated more and faster simply because they have much larger development staffs in general. 
 
The reason NVDA is free and cost so much less to develop is because those working on it did so either as volunteers or for minimum wage.  Somewhere, someone pays for everything somehow.  You know, I would imagine, the expression, there is no free lunch.  In the case of NVDA, costs were borne by the developers and by grants and contributions. 
 
My point is that NVDA was developed after decades of development and experience that demonstrate what approaches work well or are the best for various things.  That made it easier for the NVDA developers to design things to make their screen-reader work with what was available in new versions of Windows technically.  They didn’t have a lot of old legacy code and methodology and they didn't have to reinvent approaches that had already been developed.  There are advantages to being new and that's another reason I say your question doesn't have a meaningful answer.  NVDA could take the extensive legacy from other screen-readers of what works well and concentrate on innovating from there.  This made the NVDA developers able to develop a high quality screen-reader with a much smaller staff.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi,
Aha, I see what you mean. It just so happens that commercial screen
readers had these ideas first and NVDA saw how useful they were and
implemented them.
On the other hand, I can't help but wonder what original ideas NVDA
might have come up with if it were older that were actually better than
what the commercial screen readers ever did? Of course it would have
taken a lot more design, but I'm sure Mick and Jamie are capable enough
that they could have done as good as, if not better than, the commercial
ones, regardless of when it was built.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 07:50 PM, Gene wrote:
> I'm nnot talking about exact methods and I don't know how proprietary
> they are or how generally known such methods are.  I'm talking about
> ways of doing things such as MSAA which is now largely replaced as I
> understand it by UIA and techniques that are in public view.  Quick
> navigation keys when using browse mode, b for button, h for heading etc.
> aren't proprietary and anyone can use a commercial screen-reader that
> uses them and see them described in documentation.  Concepts like the
> JAWS cursor or the Window-eyes mouse pointer are in plain view. 
> Commands for seeing formatting information is another example.
> My point is that a lot of work and development went into for profit
> screen-readers which is in plain view and NVDA wouldn't be anywhere near
> as advanced as it is if these decades of work hadn't been done.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Damien Garwood <mailto:damien@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 1:16 PM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> Hi Gene,
> How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as
> commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm
> not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting
> or misunderstanding something here.
> For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and
> definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of
> access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they
> would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their
> own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most
> large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any different?
> Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille
> and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and
> closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility
> communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen
> readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and
> access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA
> works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
> Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am
> aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but
> that's another discussion entirely.
> Cheers,
> Damien.
>
> On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
>  > The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying assumption
>  > of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be
>  > provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay
>  > for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind
>  > people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
>  > In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical matter, it
>  > isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it
>  > for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
>  > NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere
>  > near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in
>  > competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and
>  > experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all
>  > this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the
>  > very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it
>  > is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually,
>  > role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
>  > Gene
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>  > *From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
>  > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
>  > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  >
>  > This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
>  >
>  > He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own
>  > hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming
>  > abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own
>  > heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
>  >
>  > Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a
>  > solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack
>  > of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow
>  > through on stuff. Whatever.
>  >
>  > But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it
>  > sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for
>  > access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger
>  > issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential
>  > process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.
>  >
>  > Cristóbal
>  >
>  > *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of *Darren
>  > Harris via Groups.Io
>  > *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
>  > *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  >
>  > No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But
>  > the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry
>  > but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
>  >
>  >
>  > On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...
> <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
>  > <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>> wrote:
>  >
>  >     Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
>  >
>  >     Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
>  >
>  > Cristóbal
>  >
>  >     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>  >     *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
>  >     *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
>  >     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  >
>  >     I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
>  >     captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
>  >
>  >
>  >     On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...
> <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>  > <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>> wrote:
>  >
>  >         The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
>  > computer.
>  >
>  >         I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
>  >         stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
>  >
>  >         But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor
>  >         connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
>  >
>  >         So for most folks, that is a good solution.
>  >
>  >         Glenn
>  >
>  >         It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally
>  >         have a monitor connected to it.
>  >
>  > *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>  >         *Desert Moon
>  >         *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
>  >         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>  > *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>  >
>  >         Hello All,
>  >
>  >         When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
>  >         Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
>  >         on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
>  >         --
>  >         Desert
>  >
>  >
>
>
>



Re: NVDA remote

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


I agree with you Brian.


At present i am using the patched version but also have the old version
as a backup.


The back up one was just in case the patched version did not work but it
does..


People have to remember also nvaccess is only a small team compared to
others in the field with resources.


Gene nzz

On 24/09/2018 8:45 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
This discussion seems to be flaring up a lot on here. It would save a
lot of this if people  in charge of add ons pointed people at Josephs
patched version for now.
What one has to remember is that the original was written by a team,
who collaborated under crowd funding to get the work done. Having done
it, the team was broken up. Now we are trying to get some of that team
to fix it to match new versions of nvda. Looking forward, this problem
is only going to get worse as Python 3 looms larger.

What is done about add ons where the authors have moved on is a much
bigger problem, which includes remote. That is what NV Access need to
solve. Admittedly the add ons are outside of their  realm of influence
in the main, but the changes that cause them to fail are their
responsibility so some effort by them needs to be made, in my view
ahead of the next major change in NVDA or people will not be able to
use new versions  productively any more.
it is also unfair to rely on Josephs good offices in this as he has
work to do and a life to live and people can easily burn out through
trying to do the right thing without support.
I wish I could help but do not have the skills.
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Sky Mundell" <skyt@shaw.ca>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA remote


Absolutely right. Their should have been a new version of it now. If a
new version isn’t created, there is going to be an upwar for sure. I’m
wondering if these offers are truly loyal to NVDA enough to create a
new version of it?



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Inam Uddin via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 8:18 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA remote



Respected friend, as far as new remote addon is concern, it is not
available!

Thanks to Joseph Lee who patched old remote addon so it will work with
NVDA 2018.3.1

If you need it,

Please Click Here
<https://www.josephsl.net/files/nvdaaddons/remote-2.1wxPy4-1807.nvda-addon>

With regards from Inamuddin with the Skype ID:

Charlsdarwin1



It is nice to be im

portant but it is more important to be nice!

You can contact me via gmail:

Inamuddin09@gmail.com

Outlook:

Inam092@outlook.com

Yahoo:

Inamuddin2010@yahoo.ca

AOL:

Charlsdarwin1969@aol.com

Talk with me on Skype:

Charlsdarwin1

Follow me on my twitter ID:

www.twitter.com/charlsdarwin1

Call me on my cell no.:

+92-334-3348409





From: Tyler Wood <mailto:tcwood12@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 1:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA remote



Is the new remote out yet?

thanks





On 23-Sep-2018 5:03 PM, Mark wrote:

Hi all,

Can someone tell me if someone has the old remote with the old NVDA
and I have the new remote with the latest NVdA will this work

Or do you both have to use the new remote

Mark.

Tune in to the number one station on the web TAFN radio
http://tafn.org.uk/listen
Or for our catch up service on demand http://www.tafn.org.uk/on-demand
or for our upcoming weekly schedule
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Re: another puzzling seting - this time Winamp

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


If you are interested there is a tutorial on using winamp on my website at http://accessibilitycentral.net/nvda%20tutorials%20for%20other%20programs.html

Just after you go to the page jump down by headings until you get to the winamp tutorial.


But any how your play list box has to be ticked I think it is called. I also have my equalizer one etc on as well.


But to go between them use the CTRL key + tab key it will cycle you between the sections. When i get to the playlist i can then arrow down and up the list etc.


Gene nz



On 25/09/2018 3:11 AM, Giles Turnbull wrote:
Hi all,

I have another puzzling program issue, this time with Winamp.

I'm sure I've experienced this before,but I can't for the life of me remember how I sorted it out!

It relates to the Winamp 5.666 edition. I use it on my home laptop, my tablet computer and this new Dell laptop that I've got for university work.

For some reason I cannot navigate the playlist with NVDA. I suspect there is a setting that relates to how tracks are displayed, but I can't spot it in the preferences. The playlist window is definitely active.

If I move into the playlist I simply cannot navigate up and down the list. All NVDA says is “List.” I have a good 30 mp3s in the playlist and, even if I start a new playlist and then enqueue a further set of mp3s, I remain unable to navigate the playlist.

I didn't bring the Winamp 5.666 installer with me, unfortunately.

I installed the NVDA extended Winamp addon last night but that doesn't seem to have changed anything.

Any suggestions very welcome.

Giles


Re: another puzzling seting - this time Winamp

Lino Morales
 

Agree. I don’t remember who the add-on dev person or persons are. If any knows by all means pass that INFO along to us and also to the NVDA add-ons list.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Roger Stewart <paganus2@...>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 4:13:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] another puzzling seting - this time Winamp
 
There is already an add on for Winamp so this function should probably be added to it.

Roger









On 9/24/2018 2:07 PM, Lino Morales wrote:

Hi Jiles. Yeah that’s one NVDA needs to look into now that Winamp finally is making a come back possibly in October. Your right that NVDA does not read the list of tracks. I’m thinking an add-on suggestion should be submitted here.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Giles Turnbull <giles.turnbull@...>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:11:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] another puzzling seting - this time Winamp
 
Hi all,

I have another puzzling program issue, this time with Winamp.

I'm sure I've experienced this before,but I can't for the life of me remember how I sorted it out!

It relates to the Winamp 5.666 edition. I use it on my home laptop, my tablet computer and this new Dell laptop that I've got for university work.

For some reason I cannot navigate the playlist with NVDA. I suspect there is a setting that relates to how tracks are displayed, but I can't spot it in the preferences. The playlist window is definitely active.

If I move into the playlist I simply cannot navigate up and down the list. All NVDA says is “List.” I have a good 30 mp3s in the playlist and, even if I start a new playlist and then enqueue a further set of mp3s, I remain unable to navigate the playlist.

I didn't bring the Winamp 5.666 installer with me, unfortunately.

I installed the NVDA extended Winamp addon last night but that doesn't seem to have changed anything.

Any suggestions very welcome.

Giles



Re: another puzzling seting - this time Winamp

Roger Stewart
 

There is already an add on for Winamp so this function should probably be added to it.

Roger









On 9/24/2018 2:07 PM, Lino Morales wrote:

Hi Jiles. Yeah that’s one NVDA needs to look into now that Winamp finally is making a come back possibly in October. Your right that NVDA does not read the list of tracks. I’m thinking an add-on suggestion should be submitted here.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Giles Turnbull <giles.turnbull@...>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:11:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] another puzzling seting - this time Winamp
 
Hi all,

I have another puzzling program issue, this time with Winamp.

I'm sure I've experienced this before,but I can't for the life of me remember how I sorted it out!

It relates to the Winamp 5.666 edition. I use it on my home laptop, my tablet computer and this new Dell laptop that I've got for university work.

For some reason I cannot navigate the playlist with NVDA. I suspect there is a setting that relates to how tracks are displayed, but I can't spot it in the preferences. The playlist window is definitely active.

If I move into the playlist I simply cannot navigate up and down the list. All NVDA says is “List.” I have a good 30 mp3s in the playlist and, even if I start a new playlist and then enqueue a further set of mp3s, I remain unable to navigate the playlist.

I didn't bring the Winamp 5.666 installer with me, unfortunately.

I installed the NVDA extended Winamp addon last night but that doesn't seem to have changed anything.

Any suggestions very welcome.

Giles



Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Damien Garwood <damien@...>
 

Hi,
Aha, I see what you mean. It just so happens that commercial screen readers had these ideas first and NVDA saw how useful they were and implemented them.
On the other hand, I can't help but wonder what original ideas NVDA might have come up with if it were older that were actually better than what the commercial screen readers ever did? Of course it would have taken a lot more design, but I'm sure Mick and Jamie are capable enough that they could have done as good as, if not better than, the commercial ones, regardless of when it was built.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 07:50 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm nnot talking about exact methods and I don't know how proprietary they are or how generally known such methods are.  I'm talking about ways of doing things such as MSAA which is now largely replaced as I understand it by UIA and techniques that are in public view.  Quick navigation keys when using browse mode, b for button, h for heading etc. aren't proprietary and anyone can use a commercial screen-reader that uses them and see them described in documentation.  Concepts like the JAWS cursor or the Window-eyes mouse pointer are in plain view. Commands for seeing formatting information is another example.
My point is that a lot of work and development went into for profit screen-readers which is in plain view and NVDA wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced as it is if these decades of work hadn't been done.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Damien Garwood <mailto:damien@daygar.plus.com>
*Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 1:16 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
Hi Gene,
How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as
commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm
not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting
or misunderstanding something here.
For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and
definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of
access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they
would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their
own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most
large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any different?
Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille
and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and
closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility
communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen
readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and
access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA
works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am
aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but
that's another discussion entirely.
Cheers,
Damien.
On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
> The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying assumption
> of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be
> provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay
> for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind
> people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
> In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical matter, it
> isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it
> for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
> NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere
> near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in
> competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and
> experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all
> this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the
> very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it
> is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually,
> role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
>
> He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own
> hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming
> abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own
> heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
>
> Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a
> solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack
> of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow
> through on stuff. Whatever.
>
> But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it
> sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for
> access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger
> issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential
> process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.
>
> Cristóbal
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of *Darren
> Harris via Groups.Io
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But
> the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry
> but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
>
>
> On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@gmail.com
<mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>
> <mailto:cristobalmuli@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
>
>     Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
>
> Cristóbal
>
>     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>     *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
>     *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
>     I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
>     captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
>
>
>     On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov
<mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>
> <mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>> wrote:
>
>         The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
> computer.
>
>         I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
>         stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
>
>         But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor
>         connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
>
>         So for most folks, that is a good solution.
>
>         Glenn
>
>         It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally
>         have a monitor connected to it.
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>         *Desert Moon
>         *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
>         Hello All,
>
>         When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
>         Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
>         on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
>         --
>         Desert
>
>