Date   

Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Well that is good.

I have always wandered for business dealings or for those that want another way of contributing that while nvda itself is free, maybe there should be a pro version in several teers.

Of course we would have to set these up.

1.  a dedicated support service, especially for businesses, including but not limited to a dedicated script writing service for custom scripts for in house applications, priority support, etc.

Of course you would have to pay for these.

For things that were used and were generally available you could get scripts for free but also buy scripts for certain things.

We can cover a lot of known apps but is it right for an addon developed for a use of a certain place to be free.

packages of synths, I know code factory does a lot of things, but I have wandered if there is a package of reasonable synths similar to what codecguide has done with their free codecs that could be put together, similar to speech hub.

Things like ivona, etc, more addon or sapi packages.

I mean for us users we can ask on here but for a business they may like a central location to ask for things.

If we want to complete with comercial readers like jaws, thats all.

On 9/25/2018 1:18 PM, Michael Munn wrote:
I'm glad that NVDA is a free screen reader. Unlike the other conmercial screem reader NVDA allowed user to develop on their own. This is a good thing. Also NVDA uses the popular python programming.programming language. This is a great programming language

.


Re: Emojis on windows 10

 

Hi,
Emoji panel was introduced in Version 1709 (Fall Creators Update).
Regarding development of emoji panel support: in reality, anyone using one particular add-on were able to access this panel since July 2017. Over time, that add-on added support for dictation, hardware keyboard input suggestions and cloud clipboard history/paste. Yes, I am the one who wrote that, and I have prepared that part of Windows 10 App Essentials add-on to become part of NVDA Core in 2018.3. That does not mean emoji panel support is done; in contrary, there will come a time when more synthesizers will get a chance to announce emoji characters (stay tuned for details).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 7:49 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Emojis on windows 10

Hi guys


I was looking through when support for emojis came in with NVDA I noted it was nvda 2018.3 for support for windows 10. I was wondering if there had to be a certain version number of windows? I noted it worked on my windows 10 version 1803 machine does it work on any earlier versions of windows 10 or 8 etc.


I was just putting together a tutorial on inserting them into your document etc.

I was going to add it in if i knew it went lower in windows or if there is a minimum for it to work with.


I was just putting it together for people who might know or not it has
come in for new users of NVDA etc.


Gene nz


nvda startup issue

 

Hi.

Well today I started the computer on my win7 unit.

Every so often nvda does not come up right, the systray icon does not show and I get an nvda thing showing a window.

I have to exit and restart it to get nvda to run properly.

It happens so little that I don't usually bother with it.

And it hardly happens but today I decided since people have been sending issues about nvda of late to pull it from an old log and send it over.

Its not urgent as such but here is the error anyway.

INFO - __main__ (15:54:54.257):
Starting NVDA
INFO - core.main (15:55:04.124):
Config dir: C:\Users\shaun\AppData\Roaming\nvda
INFO - config.ConfigManager._loadConfig (15:55:04.124):
Loading config: C:\Users\shaun\AppData\Roaming\nvda\nvda.ini
INFO - core.main (15:55:04.325):
NVDA version 2018.3.1
INFO - core.main (15:55:04.325):
Using Windows version 6.1.7601 service pack 1 workstation
INFO - core.main (15:55:04.325):
Using Python version 2.7.15 (v2.7.15:ca079a3ea3, Apr 30 2018, 16:22:17) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)]
INFO - core.main (15:55:04.325):
Using comtypes version 1.1.3
INFO - synthDrivers.espeak.SynthDriver.__init__ (15:55:05.483):
Using eSpeak NG version 1.49.3 dev
INFO - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (15:55:05.684):
Loaded synthDriver espeak
INFO - core.main (15:55:05.694):
Using wx version 4.0.3 msw (phoenix) wxWidgets 3.0.5
INFO - brailleInput.initialize (15:55:05.723):
Braille input initialized
INFO - braille.initialize (15:55:05.723):
Using liblouis version 3.6.0
INFO - braille.BrailleHandler.setDisplayByName (15:55:05.723):
Loaded braille display driver noBraille, current display has 0 cells.
WARNING - core.main (15:55:19.459):
Java Access Bridge not available
INFO - _UIAHandler.UIAHandler.MTAThreadFunc (15:55:19.559):
UIAutomation: IUIAutomation
ERROR - mouseHandler.initialize (15:55:21.549):
Error retrieving initial mouse object
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "mouseHandler.pyo", line 199, in initialize
  File "NVDAObjects\__init__.pyo", line 262, in objectFromPoint
  File "NVDAObjects\__init__.pyo", line 202, in findBestAPIClass
  File "NVDAObjects\__init__.pyo", line 197, in findBestAPIClass
  File "NVDAObjects\window\__init__.pyo", line 103, in getPossibleAPIClasses
  File "_UIAHandler.pyo", line 355, in isUIAWindow
AttributeError: 'UIAHandler' object has no attribute 'UIAWindowHandleCache'
INFO - core.main (15:55:43.529):
NVDA initialized


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

I don't know how common this is but its interesting to note that the old DOS Word Perfect 5.1 program had a menu way of doing things that blind people generally don't know existed.  Even back then, at least some DOS programs provided a more Windows-like interface for those who wanted to use it.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi Gene,


I think this gets back to one of you Gene's pet peeves.  Many people using screen access technology simply don't get good instruction.  I have used in my lifetime: Vocal Eyes, JAWS For DOS, JAWS for Windows, Window Eyes and NVDA.  I have also used Orca for Linux.  When you get down to it, there isn't a huge difference between all the DOS based programs (now mostly defunct) and all the Windows based programs and even to a degree the ones for Linux.  I have had no great difficulty adjusting and moving rapidly from one to the other. 


This is because I had a good foundation for just how DOS, Linux and Windows work.  I also had the advantage of a US Air force Drill Instructor--a personal friend of mine--who once he got the concept of how screen access technology worked, was able to give me valuable pointers on just how
Windows was laid out and just what was happening on the screen when I was navigating with the screen readers.  This process took me about 3 weeks and I have never looked back.



On 9/24/2018 2:50 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm nnot talking about exact methods and I don't know how proprietary they are or how generally known such methods are.  I'm talking about ways of doing things such as MSAA which is now largely replaced as I understand it by UIA and techniques that are in public view.  Quick navigation keys when using browse mode, b for button, h for heading etc. aren't proprietary and anyone can use a commercial screen-reader that uses them and see them described in documentation.  Concepts like the JAWS cursor or the Window-eyes mouse pointer are in plain view.  Commands for seeing formatting information is another example. 
 
My point is that a lot of work and development went into for profit screen-readers which is in plain view and NVDA wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced as it is if these decades of work hadn't been done.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi Gene,
How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as
commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm
not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting
or misunderstanding something here.
For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and
definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of
access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they
would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their
own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most
large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any different?
Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille
and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and
closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility
communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen
readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and
access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA
works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am
aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but
that's another discussion entirely.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
> The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying assumption
> of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be
> provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay
> for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind
> people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
> In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical matter, it
> isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it
> for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
> NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere
> near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in
> competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and
> experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all
> this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the
> very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it
> is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually,
> role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
>
> He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own
> hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming
> abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own
> heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
>
> Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a
> solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack
> of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow
> through on stuff. Whatever.
>
> But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it
> sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for
> access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger
> issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential
> process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.
>
> Cristóbal
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Darren
> Harris via Groups.Io
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But
> the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry
> but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
>
>
> On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...
> <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>> wrote:
>
>     Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
>
>     Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
>
>     Cristóbal
>
>     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>     <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>     *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
>     *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
>     I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
>     captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
>
>
>     On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...
>     <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>> wrote:
>
>         The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
>         computer.
>
>         I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
>         stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
>
>         But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor
>         connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
>
>         So for most folks, that is a good solution.
>
>         Glenn
>
>         It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally
>         have a monitor connected to it.
>
>         *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>         <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>         *Desert Moon
>         *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
>         Hello All,
>
>         When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
>         Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
>         on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
>         --
>         Desert
>
>



-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

I agree that some products or services cost more than they should.  Some services and products cost more because they must, some because a higher cost is charged than should be.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi Gene,


I think you have to examine each item on a case by case basis.  For example, the talking microwave ovens that cost 4 times what the same non talking version might be considered exploitative. A technician once told me that to make a microwave talk probably adds about 20 dollars to the cost.  Even if you allowed for a 100% mark up that would only make the average talking microwave about 100 or 150 dollars rather than over 300 dollars.


However, paying a few dollars monthly like with captcha be gone is hardly a huge burden even to those on fixed income.



On 9/24/2018 1:56 PM, Gene wrote:
The problem isn't just with this one service.  The underlying assumption of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind people would be if this had been followed throughout history? 
 
In an ideal world, this might be the case.  But as a practical matter, it isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable. 
 
NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually, role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Cristóbal
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?

He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.

Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow through on stuff. Whatever.

But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.

 

 

 

Cristóbal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...> wrote:

Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.

Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.

 

Cristóbal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...> wrote:

The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless” computer.

I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.

But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.

So for most folks, that is a good solution.

 

Glenn

It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally have a monitor connected to it.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Desert Moon
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Hello All,

When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

But Webvism can still be used if you use an older version of firefox.  So you can use a portable version of Firefox for only sites that require captcha solution and a current version for all other sites.  I'm curious about what will happen when the domain, if I'm using the right term, for Webvism has to be renewed.  You may recall that a few years ago, whoever was supposed to do so forgot and it wasn't available for many days.  So the question is will it be renewed again or will it just disappear one day?
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi Gene,


That's two for two today.  The only thing I think was kind of bad about the way this happened is that the original developer of this program didn't tell anyone that he was discontinuing the service/software. It was similar to what happened at Webvisum.  One day it was there, and the next it wasn't.  Unlike James Scholes who tried to revitalize the Webvisum add on and actually extended its life for a year or so, when it became too much of a problem for him to try tackling, he let it be known that he simply didn't have the means/resources to continue to make Webvisum compatible with later versions of Firefox. That is all you can expect of people; he tried and after a time just couldn't do it and he made sure that people knew he had tried and couldn't continue.  That's all anyone can ask.



On 9/24/2018 1:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Whether it was more expensive than it should have been is one question.  But being blind may cost you some money because you may need a service that you need to pay for.  Ideally, you would get such services for free but this is not an ideal world and assuming that someone charging for something is exploiting you is not reasonable nor valid logic.  It depends. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...> wrote:

The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless” computer.

I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.

But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.

So for most folks, that is a good solution.

 

Glenn

It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally have a monitor connected to it.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Desert Moon
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Hello All,

When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,


I think this gets back to one of you Gene's pet peeves.  Many people using screen access technology simply don't get good instruction.  I have used in my lifetime: Vocal Eyes, JAWS For DOS, JAWS for Windows, Window Eyes and NVDA.  I have also used Orca for Linux.  When you get down to it, there isn't a huge difference between all the DOS based programs (now mostly defunct) and all the Windows based programs and even to a degree the ones for Linux.  I have had no great difficulty adjusting and moving rapidly from one to the other. 


This is because I had a good foundation for just how DOS, Linux and Windows work.  I also had the advantage of a US Air force Drill Instructor--a personal friend of mine--who once he got the concept of how screen access technology worked, was able to give me valuable pointers on just how
Windows was laid out and just what was happening on the screen when I was navigating with the screen readers.  This process took me about 3 weeks and I have never looked back.



On 9/24/2018 2:50 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm nnot talking about exact methods and I don't know how proprietary they are or how generally known such methods are.  I'm talking about ways of doing things such as MSAA which is now largely replaced as I understand it by UIA and techniques that are in public view.  Quick navigation keys when using browse mode, b for button, h for heading etc. aren't proprietary and anyone can use a commercial screen-reader that uses them and see them described in documentation.  Concepts like the JAWS cursor or the Window-eyes mouse pointer are in plain view.  Commands for seeing formatting information is another example. 
 
My point is that a lot of work and development went into for profit screen-readers which is in plain view and NVDA wouldn't be anywhere near as advanced as it is if these decades of work hadn't been done.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hi Gene,
How can we be sure that NVDA is built on the same foundations as
commercial screen readers? To me, that doesn't make logical sense. I'm
not saying outright that it isn't the case - maybe I'm misinterpreting
or misunderstanding something here.
For one thing, commercial screen readers, by the very nature and
definition of the term, are closed-source, and thus any methods of
access would be kept a closely guarded secret. Let's face it - they
would know that competitors would be dangerous to the future of their
own operation, especially given the price tag. This is true for most
large companies, why should screen reading manufacturers be any different?
Secondly, NVDA uses open-source components to provide access to braille
and in-built speech (I'm referring of course to ESpeak), and
closed-source but publicly documented API's to provide accessibility
communication between system, applications and user. Commercial screen
readers need separate drivers that chain onto the video drivers and
access screen content that way. To me, that suggests that the way NVDA
works is totally different than its commercial predecessors.
Which is more reliable is, of course, subject to opinion. As far as I am
aware, each method will have its own advantages and disadvantages, but
that's another discussion entirely.
Cheers,
Damien.

On 24/09/2018 06:56 PM, Gene wrote:
> The problem isn't just with this one service. The underlying assumption
> of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be
> provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay
> for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind
> people would be if this had been followed throughout history?
> In an ideal world, this might be the case. But as a practical matter, it
> isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it
> for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable.
> NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere
> near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in
> competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and
> experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all
> this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the
> very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it
> is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually,
> role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Cristóbal <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?
>
> He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own
> hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming
> abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own
> heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.
>
> Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a
> solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack
> of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow
> through on stuff. Whatever.
>
> But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it
> sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for
> access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger
> issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential
> process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.
>
> Cristóbal
>
> *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Darren
> Harris via Groups.Io
> *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
> No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But
> the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry
> but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!
>
>
> On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...
> <mailto:cristobalmuli@...>> wrote:
>
>     Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.
>
>     Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.
>
>     Cristóbal
>
>     *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>     <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>     *Darren Harris via Groups.Io
>     *Sent:* Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
>     I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve
>     captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!
>
>
>     On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...
>     <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>> wrote:
>
>         The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless”
>         computer.
>
>         I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some
>         stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.
>
>         But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor
>         connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.
>
>         So for most folks, that is a good solution.
>
>         Glenn
>
>         It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally
>         have a monitor connected to it.
>
>         *From:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>         <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>         *Desert Moon
>         *Sent:* Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
>         *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>         *Subject:* Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?
>
>         Hello All,
>
>         When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the
>         Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's
>         on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
>         --
>         Desert
>
>



-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,


I think you have to examine each item on a case by case basis.  For example, the talking microwave ovens that cost 4 times what the same non talking version might be considered exploitative. A technician once told me that to make a microwave talk probably adds about 20 dollars to the cost.  Even if you allowed for a 100% mark up that would only make the average talking microwave about 100 or 150 dollars rather than over 300 dollars.


However, paying a few dollars monthly like with captcha be gone is hardly a huge burden even to those on fixed income.



On 9/24/2018 1:56 PM, Gene wrote:
The problem isn't just with this one service.  The underlying assumption of the argument is that any service a blind person needs to should be provided free because to charge anything exploits us by making us pay for something sighted people don't pay for.  Can you imagine where blind people would be if this had been followed throughout history? 
 
In an ideal world, this might be the case.  But as a practical matter, it isn't and calling people exploitative who identify a need and fill it for a cost is logically invalid and not reasonable. 
 
NVDA, which is the list we are discussing this on, wouldn't be anywhere near as good a screen-reader if for profit screen-readers, in competition with each other hadn't accumulated decades of innovation and experience in how to access the computer efficiently.  NVDA built on all this experience.  That is not to take anything away from NVDA nor the very important need it fills.  but if people don't acknowledge what it is built on, that doesn't give credit to the important, vital actually, role for profit screen-readers played in the development of NVDA.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Cristóbal
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

This is silly. So, who’s the arbiter of right and wrong?

He has a skill. He put it to use. Everyone’s got to try their own hustle. Nothing’s stopping anyone else with similar  programming abilities to try to crack the same nut out of the kindness of their own heart. I mean, please, go right ahead.

Don’t hate on the man for identifying a need and trying to create a solution to address it. He abandoned it for whatever reason. Be it lack of interest, maybe he priced it too high, maybe he just doesn’t follow through on stuff. Whatever.

But this notion of right and wrong is again, silly. I do agree that it sucks that we as blind folks have to resort to all these workarounds for access to the same stuff as sighted people and of course it’s a bigger issue of demanding fundamental accessibility for such an essential process of web browsing, but until somethings done, this is how it goes.

 

 

 

Cristóbal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

No, nobody was forcing anybody to pay for it I’ll grant you that. But the fact that somebody was willing to make money out of that, I’m sorry but that is wrong! So if it has gone, then that makes me quite happy!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:14, Cristóbal <cristobalmuli@...> wrote:

Nobody was forcing you to pay for it.

Let’s not fire up the torches of hyperboly yet either.

 

Cristóbal

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Darren Harris via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 8:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...> wrote:

The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless” computer.

I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.

But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.

So for most folks, that is a good solution.

 

Glenn

It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally have a monitor connected to it.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Desert Moon
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Hello All,

When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Rob Hudson
 

Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@roadrunner.com> wrote:
That's two for two today. The only thing I think was kind of bad about
the way this happened is that the original developer of this program
didn't tell anyone that he was discontinuing the service/software.
That particular developer is famous for that particular trait. I fear the same thing will happen with NVDA remote, QRead and anything else he has up.


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Ron Canazzi
 

Hi Gene,


That's two for two today.  The only thing I think was kind of bad about the way this happened is that the original developer of this program didn't tell anyone that he was discontinuing the service/software. It was similar to what happened at Webvisum.  One day it was there, and the next it wasn't.  Unlike James Scholes who tried to revitalize the Webvisum add on and actually extended its life for a year or so, when it became too much of a problem for him to try tackling, he let it be known that he simply didn't have the means/resources to continue to make Webvisum compatible with later versions of Firefox. That is all you can expect of people; he tried and after a time just couldn't do it and he made sure that people knew he had tried and couldn't continue.  That's all anyone can ask.



On 9/24/2018 1:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Whether it was more expensive than it should have been is one question.  But being blind may cost you some money because you may need a service that you need to pay for.  Ideally, you would get such services for free but this is not an ideal world and assuming that someone charging for something is exploiting you is not reasonable nor valid logic.  It depends. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

I’m glad it’s gone. Why should anybody have to pay to solve captures? It was nothing more than exploitation!


On 24 Sep 2018, at 16:07, Ervin, Glenn <glenn.ervin@...> wrote:

The only trouble with this solution is that I use a “headless” computer.

I could hook it up to a TV, but I would have to unplug some stuff and find an extra HDMI cable.

But I have used that app on other computers that I had a monitor connected to, when I was setting up the BIOS.

So for most folks, that is a good solution.

 

Glenn

It is a NUC PPYH, a small portable desktop, and I don’t normally have a monitor connected to it.

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Desert Moon
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2018 6:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

 

Hello All,

When I am faced with a CAPCHA challenge, I will make use of the Be My Eyes iPhone app. Just ask the volunteer to tall me what's on the screen. Safer than using an unknown add-on.
--
Desert


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Gene
 

I think the person who wrote the first message expressing unwillingness hadn't considered that the password wouldn't be shown.  Of course, that person may comment on that if he/she wishes.  That being the case, as the song from West Side Story says, "You're well protected."
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Hey Gene,


Mark this a red letter day; I totally agree with your sentiments.



On 9/24/2018 1:33 PM, Gene wrote:
I assume that in general, such people don't intend to do harm.  But I still would not show or share personal information wit them unless there were no alternative.  Hiding your password should be adequate protection.  But just as I don't assume that most volunteeers at the service would do me harm, I'm not going to assume that none of them will. 
If it is ever necessary to disclose personal information, I would disclose only what is necessary and nothing more.
 
Aside from that, I'm not sure using a service like this to solve a captcha would work.  You may want to comment on the clarity of what you see when someone sends a camera image of a screen to someone.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 02:55 AM, Richard Bartholomew wrote:
Also, you are placing a lot of faith in someone who will probably be able to see your logon details as well as the captcha!
Well, for myself, as a volunteer for Be My Eyes, I know very well both what the formal rules are (which would forbid such unethical behavior) and the informal rules are (which would forbid such unethical behavior).

Also, as has been pointed out, passwords themselves are virtually never shown by default, and I can't imagine there's any blind individual who would frequently wish to turn on the show password feature where it is available.

It is one thing to be cautious and another to be paranoid.  There is no reason to believe that people volunteering to assist in this way are doing so to do you harm.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Emojis on windows 10

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi guys


I was looking through when support for emojis came in with NVDA I noted
it was nvda 2018.3 for support for windows 10. I was wondering if there
had to be a certain version number of windows? I noted it worked on my
windows 10 version 1803 machine does it work on any earlier versions of
windows 10 or 8 etc.


I was just putting together a tutorial on inserting them into your
document etc.

I was going to add it in if i knew it went lower in windows or if there
is a minimum for it to work with.


I was just putting it together for people who might know or not it has
come in for new users of NVDA etc.


Gene nz


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Ron Canazzi
 

Hey Gene,


Mark this a red letter day; I totally agree with your sentiments.



On 9/24/2018 1:33 PM, Gene wrote:
I assume that in general, such people don't intend to do harm.  But I still would not show or share personal information wit them unless there were no alternative.  Hiding your password should be adequate protection.  But just as I don't assume that most volunteeers at the service would do me harm, I'm not going to assume that none of them will. 
If it is ever necessary to disclose personal information, I would disclose only what is necessary and nothing more.
 
Aside from that, I'm not sure using a service like this to solve a captcha would work.  You may want to comment on the clarity of what you see when someone sends a camera image of a screen to someone.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 02:55 AM, Richard Bartholomew wrote:
Also, you are placing a lot of faith in someone who will probably be able to see your logon details as well as the captcha!
Well, for myself, as a volunteer for Be My Eyes, I know very well both what the formal rules are (which would forbid such unethical behavior) and the informal rules are (which would forbid such unethical behavior).

Also, as has been pointed out, passwords themselves are virtually never shown by default, and I can't imagine there's any blind individual who would frequently wish to turn on the show password feature where it is available.

It is one thing to be cautious and another to be paranoid.  There is no reason to believe that people volunteering to assist in this way are doing so to do you harm.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


NDVDA and iTunes with current alpha builds

Lino Morales
 

How is iTunes 12.9 working with the alpha builds of NVDA? Thanks.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Ivona NVDA add-ons

 

I would be interested in this as well.





On 9/24/2018 10:13 PM, Lino Morales wrote:

Hi. Are their Ivona voices packaged as NVDA add-ons still available? If so what’s the URL and how much do they cost in USD? Thanks.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Ivona NVDA add-ons

Lino Morales
 

Hi. Are their Ivona voices packaged as NVDA add-ons still available? If so what’s the URL and how much do they cost in USD? Thanks.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: I have a couple addons that are several years old that I want to keep, so I'm guessing I shouldn't update NVDA at this time...

 

Looking at your situation, unless those add-ons are updated, you can't update. That might become an issue soon.


I do not recall if you run Windows 10 or not. If you do, you might have issues. If not, no really big issues.





On 9/24/2018 7:35 PM, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
Hey,


I've been hearing a lot over the grapevine about issues with the latest 
NVDA being incompatible with various addons due to changes, and I have a 
couple synth addons that are several years old, as well as an old 
version of the Emoticons addon. I've been pretty anxious about messing 
with computer stuff lately, and the last time I went to update an addon 
I had to remove it from the Appdata because uninstalling it in NVDA 
didn't work. I haven't updated since 2018.1 and part of me is scared to...





NVDA and Focus Blue 5th

E.T.
 

I run a Windows 7 virtual machine with the latest NVDA on a Mac. I need to install a driver for the display but it seems not to install. The dialog shows the installation progress then closes without telling me what the end result was. In the NVDA settings, the Focus is not in the list of displays to choose from. Can someone offers some ideas here? Thanks.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Ancient.Aliens@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?


Re: CAPTCHA Be Gone abandoned also?

Michael Munn
 

I'm glad that NVDA is a free screen reader. Unlike the other conmercial screem reader NVDA allowed user to develop on their own. This is a good thing. Also NVDA uses the popular python programming.programming language. This is a great programming language


Re: Toggling On and Off Format Documents #addonrelease

Quentin Christensen
 

Note that even if you did toggle off reporting elements like headings and links, they will still "work".  As in, you can still press H or 1, or 2 etc to move to the next heading - NVDA will just read the text and not report that it is a heading, and you can still use the elements list.

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 3:05 AM David Kingsbury <davidkingsbury77@...> wrote:
OK, I guess that makes sense. I would never want to toggle off the things in the elements group (headings, links, etc.).



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

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Twitter: @NVAccess