Date   

Re: NVDA remote

Robert Doc Wright godfearer
 

i have a program called folder latch that I use to secure certain information.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA remote


Well, you and the client can keep coppies of your keys though to be honest especially if you autoconnect to something, your system should be password protected so no one can get access to the files.

Sadly there is no way to secure the text files themselves, for autoconnections.

If the files got encripted maybe it would be more secure.

If a key never changes, a zipped protected file would be fine to save them I guess.

However, for safety's sake I'd always use the random key generator, each time you start a new session your client will need you to say a random key back to them.

Its how all the major support people do it including microsoft, I have seen especially with all the computer scams that 4 keys need to be entered in boxes for extra security.



On 9/26/2018 7:30 PM, Robert Doc Wright godfearer wrote:
I would like suggestions for best practices for remembering clients keys when using nvda remote options.
***
***
Something to think about, Since God has forgiven it, who are you to keep picking it back up!




Re: Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

The use of more than one screen reader is already "generally accepted practice" among a very large part of the screen-reader using population.  Now with both NVDA and Narrator having two at your fingertips is far less of a challenge.

It is a simple fact that certain sites "play better" with certain screen readers at certain points in time.  If one has the option to have a "backup screen reader" and to learn enough of the basic commands to fall back to it when one's favored screen reader is misbehaving with a given site, program, etc., that's simply the wise thing to do.

If you can't, you can't, but that's a separate issue.  And it's completely separate from promoting what is, in fact, best practice for the real world.  Whatever the area of pursuit there is a generally accepted "best practice," but not everyone can do it.  That doesn't mean it shouldn't be encouraged for those who can.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


NVDA 2018.3.1 Sluggish

Cearbhall O'Meadhra
 

Hi all,

 

Since installing Version 2018.3.1 on my Windows 10 PC, I find that the system keeps pausing as if something is buffering.

 

For instance, when I read a document, If I arrow down line by line, or if I arrow down a long list of filenames, NVDA pauses and goes silent so that I think it has stopped and then suddenly carries on with the list as the arrow continues down the list. If I dont stop arrowing then NVDA comes back at the point where the cursor is active and so misses the lines that I moved over while it was buffering.


Is this usual? Is there anything that I can check that could be causing this behaviour? It is very annoying!

 

In the attached view log I can see how uneven the timings are between similar keystrokes.

 

All the best,

 

Cearbhall

 

m +353 (0)833323487 Ph: _353 (0)1-2864623 e: cearbhall.omeadhra@...

 

 

 


Re: In-Process and information on NVDA Remote

Davy Cuppens
 

So that feels like the end of nvda remote.
 

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 4:18 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] In-Process and information on NVDA Remote
 
Hi Brian,
 
Unfortunately, all I know is what I included in the piece.  The NVDA Remote team promised to release their update as soon as NVDA 2018.3 was out.  They haven't done that.  Everybody needed a working version of NVDA Remote, and ideally wanted to be running the latest version of NVDA with it.  No-one has heard from the NVDA remote team and Joseph had built a working version which worked with NVDA 2018.3.  So, at this stage, we're calling that the useable solution.  If anything changes, we'll be sure to let everyone know.
 
Regards
 
Quentin.
 
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 12:03 AM Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
Hi, so the question is, Is Josephs build in effect the build the  Remote
team put up as the build it yourself release, and if not what will be the
differences if they bring theirs out as a build in the near future, which is
what is implied by your piece?
Sorry to nit pick, but I did used to get used to reading between the lines
of press releases in a previous life.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 11:33 AM
Subject: [nvda] In-Process and information on NVDA Remote


> Hi everyone, I've written an "In-Process" post today. Importantly in this
> edition, is the link to the packaged version of NVDA Remote which works
> with NVDA 2018.3.1. Thanks to Joseph Lee for providing the update. Also, a
> bit of background on why some add-ons needed updates to begin with.
>
> You can read this week's In-Process here:
> https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-25-september-2018/
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
> Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>




 
 
--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess


Re: O.T.: A friend needs info on screen readers history for her thesis

ely.r@...
 

Joseph,
Let me see what I can find over the coming weekend. Might you ask if he/she
intends to include prescreen reader programs like talking word processors
that greatly precede the screen reader. My dissertation was done on the
effects that one such created by DEC had on experienced writers. Seems it
would be important to at least refer to such as background.

Since I am writing, thank you so much for your work on NVDA. I monitor the
list and am amazed at how quickly you and others respond to issues. Having
been a screen reader user since VocalEyes in the DOS days, when one just had
to wait for the next major release, it is great to have a view of the inner
workings of the process.
Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] O.T.: A friend needs info on screen readers history for
her thesis

Hi,
Please tell your friend to interview the following people: Travis Siegal
(who is a member of this list I believe and familiar with Window Bridge),
Ted Henter (JAWS creator), Doug Gefrey (Window-Eyes and Vocal Eyes), Marc
Mulcahy (various projects), Matt Campbell (System Access), Eric Damery
(Vfo/Vispero), Doug Lee (scripting), Mick (NV Access), Jeff Bishop
(Microsoft and advocacy leadership), and if your friend wants to, me (NVDA
and latest developments).
Cheers,
Joseph

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ervin, Glenn" <glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov
To: "nvda@nvda.groups.io" <nvda@nvda.groups.io Date sent: Wed, 26 Sep 2018
14:36:12 +0000
Subject: Re: [nvda] O.T.: A friend needs info on screen readers history for
her thesis

Well, they go back as far as DOS, there's a lot of brands.
Try the NFB, they should have a historical perspective.
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mallard
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 3:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] O.T.: A friend needs info on screen readers history for her
thesis

Hello all,

Please, forgive this O.T. This is the only list I'm on, so I thought of
asking here.

A friend of mine, her ein Italy, has been assigned a thesis on the history
and evolution of screen readers for Windows.

She doesn't seem to find any suitable material.

Would anyone have any suggestions as to where to look for some documentation
that might help her?

I know the request is a bit vague, but that's all I ahve for now.

Thanks in advance.

Ciao,
Ollie


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene
 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: NVDA 2018.3.2 is out!

Roger Stewart
 

Ok, ignore my last. It was nvda remote support add on and I'm not using that now so all is good.

Roger








On 9/26/2018 3:48 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
We are busy at the moment, ladies and gentlemen!

Announcing NVDA 2018.3.2 for your downloading and enjoyment.

As usual, being a "point" release, it only addresses one specific, but severe crash - this time, a crash in Google Chrome when navigating tweets on the Twitter website.

NVDA should offer the update the first time you start it tomorrow, otherwise you can manually check for updates, or head over to the regular download page to grab it: https://www.nvaccess.org/download/

Don't forget to catch up on yesterday's In-Process (also updated) and be sure you have Joseph Lee's NVDA Remote update to work with the new version: https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-25-september-2018/

Kind regards

Quentin.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 



Re: NVDA 2018.3.2 is out!

Roger Stewart
 

Just got the latest nvda. However, I check for add on updates and it said no updates available so I wonder if there is a Win 10 app essentials for this new version or is the one I have up to date?

Roger











On 9/26/2018 3:48 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:
We are busy at the moment, ladies and gentlemen!

Announcing NVDA 2018.3.2 for your downloading and enjoyment.

As usual, being a "point" release, it only addresses one specific, but severe crash - this time, a crash in Google Chrome when navigating tweets on the Twitter website.

NVDA should offer the update the first time you start it tomorrow, otherwise you can manually check for updates, or head over to the regular download page to grab it: https://www.nvaccess.org/download/

Don't forget to catch up on yesterday's In-Process (also updated) and be sure you have Joseph Lee's NVDA Remote update to work with the new version: https://www.nvaccess.org/post/in-process-25-september-2018/

Kind regards

Quentin.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 



Re: Tracking focus in Windows Explorer

Felix G.
 

Hi,
yes, I'm aware of this. That's why I said I might just be being
pedantic. I like things to be deterministic rather than random, often
in spite of the fact there's almost no practical impact. It's a quirk
of mine.
Best,
Felix
Am Mi., 26. Sep. 2018 um 16:29 Uhr schrieb Gene <gsasner@gmail.com>:


I often have nothing read when I open a folder in Windows 7. The information you provide may allow a technically interesting discussion about the problem, but as a practical matter, just down and up arrowing once will place you on the first item and it will be spoken. It may be that pressing the space bar will also cause this item to be spoken, I don't recall if I've ever tried it. both actions will select the item as well. Also, first letter navigation or typing more than the first letter of a name will move you to the folder or file and cause it to be read.

I can't comment about whether this problem occurs in Windows 10 because I don't use it. I suspect it does.

If a folder only has one item in it, I don't know what down and up arrowing once does. I have no such folders.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Felix G.
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:14 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Tracking focus in Windows Explorer

Hello,
I know I'm probably being pedantic here but I'd like to ask if anyone
else has observed the following:
This happens in Windows Explorer. When I arrow to a folder and hit
enter, in most cases NVDA will announce the first item in the folder,
which is correct behavior as it has focus. However, in some cases it
will remain silent. Then, if I hit NVDA+F1 to get info on the current
navigator object, I get the following:
Developer info for navigator object:
name: ''
role: ROLE_LISTITEM
states: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
isFocusable: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
hasFocus: False
Python object: <baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA object at 0x051C1CB0>
Python class mro: (<class 'baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIItem'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.ListItem'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIA'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class
'documentBase.TextContainerObject'>, <class
'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class
'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type 'object'>)
description: ''
location: None
value: ''
appModule: <'explorer' (appName u'explorer', process ID 2324) at
address 52f4d70>
appModule.productName: u'Betriebssystem Microsoft\xae Windows\xae'
appModule.productVersion: u'6.1.7600.16385'
TextInfo: <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObjectTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 984864
windowClassName: u'DirectUIHWND'
windowControlID: 0
windowStyle: 0
windowThreadID: 0
windowText: u''
displayText: exception: 'NoneType' object is not iterable
UIAElement: <POINTER(IUIAutomationElement) ptr=0x3c49500 at 53194e0>
UIA automationID: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA frameworkID: DirectUI
UIA runtimeID: (2324, 224670096, 0)
UIA providerDescription: [pid:2324,hwnd:0x0 Main(parent
link):Unidentified Provider (unmanaged:EXPLORERFRAME.dll)]
UIA className: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA patterns available:

A similarly enigmatic object is reached when hitting enter on an empty folder:
Developer info for navigator object:
name: ''
role: ROLE_LISTITEM
states: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
isFocusable: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
hasFocus: False
Python object: <baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA object at 0x05453290>
Python class mro: (<class 'baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIItem'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.ListItem'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIA'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class
'documentBase.TextContainerObject'>, <class
'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class
'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type 'object'>)
description: ''
location: None
value: ''
appModule: <'explorer' (appName u'explorer', process ID 2324) at
address 52f4d70>
appModule.productName: u'Betriebssystem Microsoft\xae Windows\xae'
appModule.productVersion: u'6.1.7600.16385'
TextInfo: <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObjectTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 984608
windowClassName: u'DirectUIHWND'
windowControlID: 0
windowStyle: 0
windowThreadID: 0
windowText: u''
displayText: exception: 'NoneType' object is not iterable
UIAElement: <POINTER(IUIAutomationElement) ptr=0x3c495c0 at 546fad0>
UIA automationID: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA frameworkID: DirectUI
UIA runtimeID: (2324, 162798944, 0)
UIA providerDescription: [pid:2324,hwnd:0x0 Main(parent
link):Unidentified Provider (unmanaged:EXPLORERFRAME.dll)]
UIA className: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA patterns available:

The empty folder behavior is not that much of a problem for me but the
one I described first bothers me to some degree as it is
nondeterministic, that is, it will seemingly randomly show up, leading
me to believe a folder is empty when it isn't.
Best,
Felix



Re: O.T.: A friend needs info on screen readers history for her thesis

 

Hi,
Please tell your friend to interview the following people: Travis Siegal (who is a member of this list I believe and familiar with Window Bridge), Ted Henter (JAWS creator), Doug Gefrey (Window-Eyes and Vocal Eyes), Marc Mulcahy (various projects), Matt Campbell (System Access), Eric Damery (Vfo/Vispero), Doug Lee (scripting), Mick (NV Access), Jeff Bishop (Microsoft and advocacy leadership), and if your friend wants to, me (NVDA and latest developments).
Cheers,
Joseph

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ervin, Glenn" <glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov
To: "nvda@nvda.groups.io" <nvda@nvda.groups.io
Date sent: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 14:36:12 +0000
Subject: Re: [nvda] O.T.: A friend needs info on screen readers history for her thesis

Well, they go back as far as DOS, there's a lot of brands.
Try the NFB, they should have a historical perspective.
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mallard
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 3:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] O.T.: A friend needs info on screen readers history for her thesis

Hello all,

Please, forgive this O.T. This is the only list I'm on, so I thought of asking here.

A friend of mine, her ein Italy, has been assigned a thesis on the history and evolution of screen readers for Windows.

She doesn't seem to find any suitable material.

Would anyone have any suggestions as to where to look for some documentation that might help her?

I know the request is a bit vague, but that's all I ahve for now.

Thanks in advance.

Ciao,
Ollie


Re: Tracking focus in Windows Explorer

Robert Doc Wright godfearer
 


On rare occasions when I delete a file  or close a window I get silence from NVDA. even when i tab. I have to change virtual desktops to get speech back.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Tracking focus in Windows Explorer

I often have nothing read when I open a folder in Windows 7.  The information you provide may allow a technically interesting discussion about the problem, but as a practical matter, just down and up arrowing once will place you on the first item and it will be spoken.  It may be that pressing the space bar will also cause this item to be spoken, I don't recall if I've ever tried it.  both actions will select the item as well.  Also, first letter navigation or typing more than the first letter of a name will move you to the folder or file and cause it to be read. 
 
I can't comment about whether this problem occurs in Windows 10 because I don't use it.  I suspect it does. 
 
If a folder only has one item in it, I don't know what down and up arrowing once does.  I have no such folders.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Felix G.
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:14 AM
Subject: [nvda] Tracking focus in Windows Explorer

Hello,
I know I'm probably being pedantic here but I'd like to ask if anyone
else has observed the following:
This happens in Windows Explorer. When I arrow to a folder and hit
enter, in most cases NVDA will announce the first item in the folder,
which is correct behavior as it has focus. However, in some cases it
will remain silent. Then, if I hit NVDA+F1 to get info on the current
navigator object, I get the following:
Developer info for navigator object:
name: ''
role: ROLE_LISTITEM
states: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
isFocusable: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
hasFocus: False
Python object: <baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA object at 0x051C1CB0>
Python class mro: (<class 'baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIItem'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.ListItem'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIA'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class
'documentBase.TextContainerObject'>, <class
'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class
'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type 'object'>)
description: ''
location: None
value: ''
appModule: <'explorer' (appName u'explorer', process ID 2324) at
address 52f4d70>
appModule.productName: u'Betriebssystem Microsoft\xae Windows\xae'
appModule.productVersion: u'6.1.7600.16385'
TextInfo: <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObjectTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 984864
windowClassName: u'DirectUIHWND'
windowControlID: 0
windowStyle: 0
windowThreadID: 0
windowText: u''
displayText: exception: 'NoneType' object is not iterable
UIAElement: <POINTER(IUIAutomationElement) ptr=0x3c49500 at 53194e0>
UIA automationID: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA frameworkID: DirectUI
UIA runtimeID: (2324, 224670096, 0)
UIA providerDescription: [pid:2324,hwnd:0x0 Main(parent
link):Unidentified Provider (unmanaged:EXPLORERFRAME.dll)]
UIA className: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA patterns available:

A similarly enigmatic object is reached when hitting enter on an empty folder:
Developer info for navigator object:
name: ''
role: ROLE_LISTITEM
states: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
isFocusable: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
hasFocus: False
Python object: <baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA object at 0x05453290>
Python class mro: (<class 'baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIItem'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.ListItem'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIA'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class
'documentBase.TextContainerObject'>, <class
'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class
'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type 'object'>)
description: ''
location: None
value: ''
appModule: <'explorer' (appName u'explorer', process ID 2324) at
address 52f4d70>
appModule.productName: u'Betriebssystem Microsoft\xae Windows\xae'
appModule.productVersion: u'6.1.7600.16385'
TextInfo: <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObjectTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 984608
windowClassName: u'DirectUIHWND'
windowControlID: 0
windowStyle: 0
windowThreadID: 0
windowText: u''
displayText: exception: 'NoneType' object is not iterable
UIAElement: <POINTER(IUIAutomationElement) ptr=0x3c495c0 at 546fad0>
UIA automationID: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA frameworkID: DirectUI
UIA runtimeID: (2324, 162798944, 0)
UIA providerDescription: [pid:2324,hwnd:0x0 Main(parent
link):Unidentified Provider (unmanaged:EXPLORERFRAME.dll)]
UIA className: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA patterns available:

The empty folder behavior is not that much of a problem for me but the
one I described first bothers me to some degree as it is
nondeterministic, that is, it will seemingly randomly show up, leading
me to believe a folder is empty when it isn't.
Best,
Felix



Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Ervin, Glenn
 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: O.T.: A friend needs info on screen readers history for her thesis

Ervin, Glenn
 

Well, they go back as far as DOS, there's a lot of brands.
Try the NFB, they should have a historical perspective.
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mallard
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 3:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] O.T.: A friend needs info on screen readers history for her thesis

Hello all,

Please, forgive this O.T. This is the only list I'm on, so I thought of asking here.

A friend of mine, her ein Italy, has been assigned a thesis on the history and evolution of screen readers for Windows.

She doesn't seem to find any suitable material.

Would anyone have any suggestions as to where to look for some documentation that might help her?

I know the request is a bit vague, but that's all I ahve for now.

Thanks in advance.

Ciao,
Ollie


Re: 2018.3.2 double speech in windows10 mail

 

Hi,
  What links are being double reading?
I tried to reproduce step by step following the example you sent and all seems to work as expected here.

Cheers,
Marcio

Em 26/09/2018 07:04, Alexandre Alves Toco escreveu:

Hi all.

While the e-mail I forwarded to demonstrate the problem is in portuguese,, I hope it could help.

The problem is:

If I read this e-mail using the arrow Keys in the mail app, some sentences are double read. It happens also with the first link. 

However, if I use the tab key to navigate the links, the first link  is speaked correctly.

I also accessed gmail through google schrome and read the e-mail there. The sentences are not duplicated.

 

I guess it is related to the e-mail’s format (it has tables).

 

 

Enviado do Email para Windows 10

 

De: Americanas.com
Enviado:terça-feira, 25 de setembro de 2018 11:44
Para: alexandretoco@...
Assunto: Confirme se você já recebeu seu produto

 

Este é um e-mail automático, não é necessário respondê-lo.


Olá, Alexandre Alves Tôco.
Queremos ajudá-lo se você teve algum problema com a sua compra.

Você recebeu o produto?

Sim

Não

 

Pedido 02-676198462 - Entrega 01

 

Headphone Com Microfone E Controle De Volume USB 2.0 Df-55

Vendido por MINI MUNDO ELETRO
e entregue por Americanas

Qtd
1

Se você não responder esta pergunta até o dia 01/10/2018, vamos considerar que seu produto foi entregue.

Acesso rápido a atualizações do seu pedido?

Rastreie sua entrega, tire dúvidas e ainda avalie seus produtos.

Minha conta

Minha
                                        conta


 



Re: Santander UK online banking - logon problem

Ervin, Glenn
 

Which method actually worked?

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Crabtree
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 1:19 AM
To: NVDA Forum <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Santander UK online banking - logon problem

Thanks for the rapid reply. It was that simple!

I had been going by heading, table, list, etc as the other screens are organised in that way. I will also try tab in future. Brian


Re: Tracking focus in Windows Explorer

Gene
 

I often have nothing read when I open a folder in Windows 7.  The information you provide may allow a technically interesting discussion about the problem, but as a practical matter, just down and up arrowing once will place you on the first item and it will be spoken.  It may be that pressing the space bar will also cause this item to be spoken, I don't recall if I've ever tried it.  both actions will select the item as well.  Also, first letter navigation or typing more than the first letter of a name will move you to the folder or file and cause it to be read. 
 
I can't comment about whether this problem occurs in Windows 10 because I don't use it.  I suspect it does. 
 
If a folder only has one item in it, I don't know what down and up arrowing once does.  I have no such folders.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Felix G.
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:14 AM
Subject: [nvda] Tracking focus in Windows Explorer

Hello,
I know I'm probably being pedantic here but I'd like to ask if anyone
else has observed the following:
This happens in Windows Explorer. When I arrow to a folder and hit
enter, in most cases NVDA will announce the first item in the folder,
which is correct behavior as it has focus. However, in some cases it
will remain silent. Then, if I hit NVDA+F1 to get info on the current
navigator object, I get the following:
Developer info for navigator object:
name: ''
role: ROLE_LISTITEM
states: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
isFocusable: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
hasFocus: False
Python object: <baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA object at 0x051C1CB0>
Python class mro: (<class 'baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIItem'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.ListItem'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIA'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class
'documentBase.TextContainerObject'>, <class
'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class
'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type 'object'>)
description: ''
location: None
value: ''
appModule: <'explorer' (appName u'explorer', process ID 2324) at
address 52f4d70>
appModule.productName: u'Betriebssystem Microsoft\xae Windows\xae'
appModule.productVersion: u'6.1.7600.16385'
TextInfo: <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObjectTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 984864
windowClassName: u'DirectUIHWND'
windowControlID: 0
windowStyle: 0
windowThreadID: 0
windowText: u''
displayText: exception: 'NoneType' object is not iterable
UIAElement: <POINTER(IUIAutomationElement) ptr=0x3c49500 at 53194e0>
UIA automationID: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA frameworkID: DirectUI
UIA runtimeID: (2324, 224670096, 0)
UIA providerDescription: [pid:2324,hwnd:0x0 Main(parent
link):Unidentified Provider (unmanaged:EXPLORERFRAME.dll)]
UIA className: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA patterns available:

A similarly enigmatic object is reached when hitting enter on an empty folder:
Developer info for navigator object:
name: ''
role: ROLE_LISTITEM
states: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
isFocusable: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
hasFocus: False
Python object: <baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA object at 0x05453290>
Python class mro: (<class 'baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIItem'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.ListItem'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIA'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class
'documentBase.TextContainerObject'>, <class
'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class
'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type 'object'>)
description: ''
location: None
value: ''
appModule: <'explorer' (appName u'explorer', process ID 2324) at
address 52f4d70>
appModule.productName: u'Betriebssystem Microsoft\xae Windows\xae'
appModule.productVersion: u'6.1.7600.16385'
TextInfo: <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObjectTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 984608
windowClassName: u'DirectUIHWND'
windowControlID: 0
windowStyle: 0
windowThreadID: 0
windowText: u''
displayText: exception: 'NoneType' object is not iterable
UIAElement: <POINTER(IUIAutomationElement) ptr=0x3c495c0 at 546fad0>
UIA automationID: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA frameworkID: DirectUI
UIA runtimeID: (2324, 162798944, 0)
UIA providerDescription: [pid:2324,hwnd:0x0 Main(parent
link):Unidentified Provider (unmanaged:EXPLORERFRAME.dll)]
UIA className: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA patterns available:

The empty folder behavior is not that much of a problem for me but the
one I described first bothers me to some degree as it is
nondeterministic, that is, it will seemingly randomly show up, leading
me to believe a folder is empty when it isn't.
Best,
Felix



Tracking focus in Windows Explorer

Felix G.
 

Hello,
I know I'm probably being pedantic here but I'd like to ask if anyone
else has observed the following:
This happens in Windows Explorer. When I arrow to a folder and hit
enter, in most cases NVDA will announce the first item in the folder,
which is correct behavior as it has focus. However, in some cases it
will remain silent. Then, if I hit NVDA+F1 to get info on the current
navigator object, I get the following:
Developer info for navigator object:
name: ''
role: ROLE_LISTITEM
states: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
isFocusable: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
hasFocus: False
Python object: <baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA object at 0x051C1CB0>
Python class mro: (<class 'baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIItem'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.ListItem'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIA'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class
'documentBase.TextContainerObject'>, <class
'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class
'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type 'object'>)
description: ''
location: None
value: ''
appModule: <'explorer' (appName u'explorer', process ID 2324) at
address 52f4d70>
appModule.productName: u'Betriebssystem Microsoft\xae Windows\xae'
appModule.productVersion: u'6.1.7600.16385'
TextInfo: <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObjectTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 984864
windowClassName: u'DirectUIHWND'
windowControlID: 0
windowStyle: 0
windowThreadID: 0
windowText: u''
displayText: exception: 'NoneType' object is not iterable
UIAElement: <POINTER(IUIAutomationElement) ptr=0x3c49500 at 53194e0>
UIA automationID: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA frameworkID: DirectUI
UIA runtimeID: (2324, 224670096, 0)
UIA providerDescription: [pid:2324,hwnd:0x0 Main(parent
link):Unidentified Provider (unmanaged:EXPLORERFRAME.dll)]
UIA className: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA patterns available:

A similarly enigmatic object is reached when hitting enter on an empty folder:
Developer info for navigator object:
name: ''
role: ROLE_LISTITEM
states: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
isFocusable: exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
hasFocus: False
Python object: <baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA object at 0x05453290>
Python class mro: (<class 'baseObject.Dynamic_UIItemListItemUIA'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIItem'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.ListItem'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.UIA.UIA'>, <class 'NVDAObjects.window.Window'>,
<class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObject'>, <class
'documentBase.TextContainerObject'>, <class
'baseObject.ScriptableObject'>, <class
'baseObject.AutoPropertyObject'>, <type 'object'>)
description: ''
location: None
value: ''
appModule: <'explorer' (appName u'explorer', process ID 2324) at
address 52f4d70>
appModule.productName: u'Betriebssystem Microsoft\xae Windows\xae'
appModule.productVersion: u'6.1.7600.16385'
TextInfo: <class 'NVDAObjects.NVDAObjectTextInfo'>
windowHandle: 984608
windowClassName: u'DirectUIHWND'
windowControlID: 0
windowStyle: 0
windowThreadID: 0
windowText: u''
displayText: exception: 'NoneType' object is not iterable
UIAElement: <POINTER(IUIAutomationElement) ptr=0x3c495c0 at 546fad0>
UIA automationID: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA frameworkID: DirectUI
UIA runtimeID: (2324, 162798944, 0)
UIA providerDescription: [pid:2324,hwnd:0x0 Main(parent
link):Unidentified Provider (unmanaged:EXPLORERFRAME.dll)]
UIA className: Exception: (-2147220991, 'Ein Ereignis konnte keinen
Abonnenten aufrufen.', (None, None, None, 0, None))
UIA patterns available:

The empty folder behavior is not that much of a problem for me but the
one I described first bothers me to some degree as it is
nondeterministic, that is, it will seemingly randomly show up, leading
me to believe a folder is empty when it isn't.
Best,
Felix


Re: Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Davy Cuppens
 

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
Davy

2018-09-26 14:01 GMT+02:00, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@roadrunner.com>:

I tried that already.  It did not work.



On 9/26/2018 2:00 AM, Gene wrote:
There is one more thing you can try.  I have no idea if it might
work.  Move to the button in the usual way.  Then, turn off browse
mode and press the space bar.  I doubt that will work but its one more
thing to try.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Gene <mailto:gsasner@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, September 26, 2018 12:58 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Insert numpad minus has nothing to do with what you are doing.  the
first procedure you described is the way you move the mouse to the
current position and then left click it with numpad slash.  But
whether the golden Cursor might be any more successful, I don't know.
If you had a physical mouse, you might be able to click it after using
numpad insert slash to move the mouse to the button and that might
work.  Or you might have to actually move the physical mouse to the
correct position, then click it.  I don't know which of these might work.
Gene
----- Original message -----
*From:* Ron Canazzi <mailto:aa2vm@roadrunner.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 25, 2018 11:51 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Hi Gene,


I want to make sure I am understanding this correctly.  I have been
using the keystrokes insert + numpad slash when highlighting the
submit button and have then pressed the numpad slash by itself to try
to activate it.  I have also tried insert + numpad minus to highlight
the item and have then used numpad slash by itself to try to activate
it.  Am I missing something else?

Thanks again.



On 9/25/2018 11:02 PM, Gene wrote:
Developers may want to comment.
I call it the virtual mouse but technically, I'm not sure what it
should be called.  As I understand it, whether you route the mouse
with the NVDA numpad command or with the Golden Triangle, you are
routing the actual thing the physical mouse moves.  You can see what
you can do in this case but I wouldn't be surprised if you have to
use a physical mouse and click the physical mouse.  there are times,
I don't know why, when I can move the mouse with the numpad command
to the right place and clicking it does nothing.  I suspect I could
use a physical mouse and click it successfully instead.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 25, 2018 9:35 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 10:22 PM, Gene wrote:

he golden cursor, I believe, works with the same virtual mouse as
NVDA does.

Well, whatever it works with it actually moves the physical mouse
pointer along with it.    The position is expressed based on the
actual screen resolution, which is why if you're sharing location
data you have to be sure that the screen resolution on both machines
is the same and that the window in question is maximized.

When I move the mouse using Golden Cursor it moves precisely as
though I were moving the mouse itself (but, of course, a bit more
orderly since arrow keys are being used).

--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

/The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional
morals, which //assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to
one person cannot co-exist with //a serious affection for another.
Everybody knows that this is untrue. . ./

           ~ Bertrand Russell
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"





Re: Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Ron Canazzi
 

I tried that already.  It did not work.



On 9/26/2018 2:00 AM, Gene wrote:
There is one more thing you can try.  I have no idea if it might work.  Move to the button in the usual way.  Then, turn off browse mode and press the space bar.  I doubt that will work but its one more thing to try.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Insert numpad minus has nothing to do with what you are doing.  the first procedure you described is the way you move the mouse to the current position and then left click it with numpad slash.  But whether the golden Cursor might be any more successful, I don't know.  If you had a physical mouse, you might be able to click it after using numpad insert slash to move the mouse to the button and that might work.  Or you might have to actually move the physical mouse to the correct position, then click it.  I don't know which of these might work.
 
Gene
----- Original message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 11:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Hi Gene,


I want to make sure I am understanding this correctly.  I have been using the keystrokes insert + numpad slash when highlighting the submit button and have then pressed the numpad slash by itself to try to activate it.  I have also tried insert + numpad minus to highlight the item and have then used numpad slash by itself to try to activate it.  Am I missing something else?

Thanks again.



On 9/25/2018 11:02 PM, Gene wrote:
Developers may want to comment.
 
I call it the virtual mouse but technically, I'm not sure what it should be called.  As I understand it, whether you route the mouse with the NVDA numpad command or with the Golden Triangle, you are routing the actual thing the physical mouse moves.  You can see what you can do in this case but I wouldn't be surprised if you have to use a physical mouse and click the physical mouse.  there are times, I don't know why, when I can move the mouse with the numpad command to the right place and clicking it does nothing.  I suspect I could use a physical mouse and click it successfully instead.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 10:22 PM, Gene wrote:
he golden cursor, I believe, works with the same virtual mouse as NVDA does.
Well, whatever it works with it actually moves the physical mouse pointer along with it.    The position is expressed based on the actual screen resolution, which is why if you're sharing location data you have to be sure that the screen resolution on both machines is the same and that the window in question is maximized.

When I move the mouse using Golden Cursor it moves precisely as though I were moving the mouse itself (but, of course, a bit more orderly since arrow keys are being used).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"