Date   

Re: Update on Focus Blie driver install

Jonathan COHN
 

So, the Focus worked correctly with JAWS? Is there perchance a different driver for NVDA? I don't really understand how USB driver technology works.

Jonathan Cohn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of E.T. via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:53 PM
To: NVDA <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] Update on Focus Blie driver install
Importance: Low

I have been in contact with Freedom Scientific. They do not have any experience with VMs so I am hoping some of you who operate a Windows 7 VM on a Mac can shed some light on this issue I posted below.

Posted yesterday...
Update on the Focus driver. I installed the Jaws demo which installed the necessary driver when the display was connected to USB. I was able to update the Focus firmware. But NVDA still does not see the Focus and I still cannot get the driver to install. So can't use the display with my Windows VM. Should do fine with the Mac and iOS devices.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Ancient.Aliens@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?


Re: The latest versions of NVDA will not install on my Acer Swift Notebook

Sarah k Alawami
 

Since I have UAC shut off, alwyas have, I don't face that problem. Try shutting it off and see if tha tworks then turn it back on if yu really want it on. I do not so I don't.

On 27 Sep 2018, at 5:11, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Aside from the avenues others have suggested, once you start the install, on Windows 10, it will bring up a user account control dialog wanting you to confirm that you allow the program to make changes - that's nothing worrying about NVDA, it does that when you install ANY program.  The problem can be, sometimes it opens that dialog and seemingly puts it behind every other open window.  But, if you don't respond to it within 20 seconds or so, it closes, and the install fails.  Once you've told it to install, if you aren't given that dialog, press either ALT+TAB or ALT+SHIFT+TAB (when not on top, it's usually the last window) to find that UAC dialog.

Other than that, I can't think why 2018.2.1 would install and not anything later...

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 9:10 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
Why would an earlier version of NVDA install and not this version?  It is really not logical to place bloatware or Avast, which is likely not even being used and which I have never heard blocks NVDA from being installed as likely reasons.  It's as though you have drawn up a list of programs you don't like and said, I don't like them so they are likely the problem. 
 
Is it possible that some program is preventing the installation?  Of course, all sorts of things are possible but the way to proceed is to get someone who has proper technical knowledge to look at whatever relevant logs should be looked at and not just categorically blame this or that program or broad meaningless class (bloatware) of program.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The latest versions of NVDA will not install on my Acer Swift Notebook

If this is the first time you have installed nvda and its a new machine. My
main finger of blame is that it needs a bloatware clean down session if not
a total reinstall.
 Avast is almost like a virus and seems to be on every large store purchased
machine just like Norton used to be, indeed some manufacturers fit it.
 There are also often  free trial versions of all sorts of rubbish
installed.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John J. Boyer" <john.boyer@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:18 AM
Subject: [nvda] The latest versions of NVDA will not install on my Acer
Swift Notebook


> The machine is running Windows 10 home, presumably a recent update. The
> last version that will install is 2018.2.1.
> Subsequent attempts to install end with the Windows error message
> instalation terminated by User. I have not taken any
> action
> since pressing the install button. The machine eventually returns to a
> normal window, but memory has been corrupted. I
> have to restart to get things to work normally.
>
> John
>
> --
> John J. Boyer
> Email: john.boyer@...
> website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
> Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses  live.
> Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM
> services
>        that are available at no cost
>
>
>
>
>





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Ervin, Glenn
 

Gene,

The level of training you are referring to is either unaffordable on their limited income, or beyond their interest level.

Remember, even the average requirements of using a screenreader is more than most sighted folks would learn to use the computer.

If they cannot touch what they want or click on it with a mouse, it is beyond what the majority of sighted folks would be willing to learn, and why should the Blind be any different?

We are forced to learn stuff that many would not even consider if they did not have to.

Believe me, I’m in the real world seeing newly Blinded folks all the time, and only the most highly motivated of them are interested in learning to use a screenreader.

I find it disappointing, but that is the truth.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Because of poor training.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Hi Gene,

I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Ervin, Glenn
 

Gene,

Things change that proficient screenreader users cannot adapt easily to as well.

For example, I did not know about menus containing hidden options.

So I went to a page, and I am looking for a download button.

I jump through looking for a download button with the letter B, and that does not work.

I list links, and press D and find no download button, nor arrowing through them finds anything relating to a download option.

So I use the find command looking for the word down and find nothing.

Without knowing that there is a new thing where content is different and there is something new, I can see where someone who is a casual user will find a page inaccessible.

 

You look at computer usage like all screenreader users should be at the level of the folks on this list, and the truth is, most are not, and will never be that proficient, so for accessibility to be a reality, things need to improve, and become more intuitive.

Having a button that says menu closed is easily overlooked.

Perhaps the sighted have some graphics there indicating what is hidden in that closed menu, but there is no description to us, we have to know to open the closed menus and see if that gives us what we want.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 1:20 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Let's examine an example of worthless training as opposed to good training.  Years ago,

Send Space had a download link.  If people were tought something such as to use the links list and look for the link that said download, then what would happen when Send Space changed it from a link to a button?  If they were just taught by rote, they would likely be unable to use the page.  If they had been taught to look at and understand web pages and how to find things, they would see that the link was now a button and then, after they saw this, be able to go on efficiently using the page as before.  How many times have I seen blind people claim that a site is no longer acccessible after it has been changed?  It wasn't inaccessible after the change.  Changes had been made in the site and rote memorization of the old layout didn't work any longer. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Jackie

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:26 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

W/all due respect, training is not a waste of time, at least if it's
the sort of training that teaches basic principles & not simply rote
memorization, ie, shake hands, roll over, speak, etc. That's just
performing commands on cue, & that sort of training is indeed
worthless. When I did adaptive tech--& admittedly, it was a long time
ago--I actually used to encourage my students to get into trouble, ie,
they would check w/me about a keystroke to press, &, knowing it was
the wrong 1, I'd tell them to go ahead. My rationale was that they
were going to get themselves into situations where they were
confronted w/stuff I hadn't taught them, & they needed to understand
the basic principles of how to cope w/the unexpected. That may at 1st
blush sound really cruel, but those that made it thru expressed that
was the 1 thing they really appreciated about my approach, ie, that I
believed they could recover on their own by using the tools they'd
been taught.

Accessibility, IMO, has overall greatly improved. The use of mobile
devices, where screen real estate is important, thereby eliminating a
lot of the big gawdy banners & sliders etc, has improved things, as
has legislation in the developed world mandating accessibility. I
recall when Windows was completely inaccessible to us--now we can
basically install it independently. So I'd also disagree w/the
gloom-&-doom naysayers who think we'll someday never be able to use a
computer. The truth is, we have more options now than we've ever had.
I recall when Apple was totally inaccessible, for example, & when we
couldn't use a cell phone to do anything but basic calling.
Change is a constant, & screenreading technology will have to evolve
w/it. On the other hand, there are now accessibility guidelines in
place for many technologies, which there weren't in the last century.
Overall, I think we're in better shape than we've ever been.
Truthfully, I wish I'd been born into this century, as I think, at
least from a technology perspective, things will overall only improve,
as a general rule.

On 9/27/18, Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:
> Glen,
>
>
>
> I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it
> may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the
> computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly
> changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a
> waste of time.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin,
> Glenn
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Gene,
>
> All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can
> cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
>
> I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have
> spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no
> work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure
> technique that happens to work.
>
> It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult
> for screenreaders to keep up.
>
> I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
>
> I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people
> being able to access pages.
>
> I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
>
> I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gene
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but
> for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands
> that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you
> could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.
> a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a
> different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot
> of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't
> use screen-reader commands.
>
>
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
>
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of
> us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice,
> then the majority of users are left behind.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
>
> Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
>
> Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have
> to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of
> catch up.
>
> Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.
> Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and
> particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way
> revolves around increased security.
>
> It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one
> screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with
> two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the
> issue might lie.
>
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
>
>     The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals,
> which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot
> co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is
> untrue. . .
>
>            ~ Bertrand Russell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene
 

Because of poor training.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Hi Gene,

I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene
 

Let's examine an example of worthless training as opposed to good training.  Years ago,
Send Space had a download link.  If people were tought something such as to use the links list and look for the link that said download, then what would happen when Send Space changed it from a link to a button?  If they were just taught by rote, they would likely be unable to use the page.  If they had been taught to look at and understand web pages and how to find things, they would see that the link was now a button and then, after they saw this, be able to go on efficiently using the page as before.  How many times have I seen blind people claim that a site is no longer acccessible after it has been changed?  It wasn't inaccessible after the change.  Changes had been made in the site and rote memorization of the old layout didn't work any longer. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Jackie
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

W/all due respect, training is not a waste of time, at least if it's
the sort of training that teaches basic principles & not simply rote
memorization, ie, shake hands, roll over, speak, etc. That's just
performing commands on cue, & that sort of training is indeed
worthless. When I did adaptive tech--& admittedly, it was a long time
ago--I actually used to encourage my students to get into trouble, ie,
they would check w/me about a keystroke to press, &, knowing it was
the wrong 1, I'd tell them to go ahead. My rationale was that they
were going to get themselves into situations where they were
confronted w/stuff I hadn't taught them, & they needed to understand
the basic principles of how to cope w/the unexpected. That may at 1st
blush sound really cruel, but those that made it thru expressed that
was the 1 thing they really appreciated about my approach, ie, that I
believed they could recover on their own by using the tools they'd
been taught.

Accessibility, IMO, has overall greatly improved. The use of mobile
devices, where screen real estate is important, thereby eliminating a
lot of the big gawdy banners & sliders etc, has improved things, as
has legislation in the developed world mandating accessibility. I
recall when Windows was completely inaccessible to us--now we can
basically install it independently. So I'd also disagree w/the
gloom-&-doom naysayers who think we'll someday never be able to use a
computer. The truth is, we have more options now than we've ever had.
I recall when Apple was totally inaccessible, for example, & when we
couldn't use a cell phone to do anything but basic calling.
Change is a constant, & screenreading technology will have to evolve
w/it. On the other hand, there are now accessibility guidelines in
place for many technologies, which there weren't in the last century.
Overall, I think we're in better shape than we've ever been.
Truthfully, I wish I'd been born into this century, as I think, at
least from a technology perspective, things will overall only improve,
as a general rule.

On 9/27/18, Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@...> wrote:
> Glen,
>
>
>
> I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it
> may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the
> computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly
> changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a
> waste of time.
>
>
>
> Rosemarie
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin,
> Glenn
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Gene,
>
> All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can
> cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.
>
> I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have
> spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no
> work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure
> technique that happens to work.
>
> It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult
> for screenreaders to keep up.
>
> I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.
>
> I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people
> being able to access pages.
>
> I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.
>
> I hope I’m wrong about the trend.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gene
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but
> for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands
> that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you
> could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.
> a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a
> different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot
> of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't
> use screen-reader commands.
>
>
>
> Gene
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@...>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM
>
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>
> Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of
> us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice,
> then the majority of users are left behind.
>
> Glenn
>
>
>
>
>
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>  <nvda@nvda.groups.io
> <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
> Banking Site
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:
>
> Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.
>
> Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have
> to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of
> catch up.
>
> Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.
> Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and
> particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way
> revolves around increased security.
>
> It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one
> screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with
> two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the
> issue might lie.
>
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
>
>     The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals,
> which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot
> co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is
> untrue. . .
>
>            ~ Bertrand Russell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com



Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene
 

Without specifics, your statements can't be discussed accept in general support or rebuttal.  I will discuss what I've observed. 
 
Sites are changing, with lots of links being replaced by menus that you use buttons to open and then you see the links in the menus.  This is an unfortunate consequence of mobile devices and the demand they put on web designers to make the most use of the screen for just what is necessary to be shown.  it's annoying and it means you can't just use the find command as you used to nor the links list, which is a completely artificial environment anyway.  Is that one reason people you work with are now having so much trouble, because their completely artificial environment doesn't allow them to see and understand how menus are being incorporated into web sites?  Just one more reason I vehemently oppose the links list.  It is a completely artificial environment that discourages people from working with and understanding the real site design or seeing how it may change over time.
 
But there is a difference between accessibility and convenience.  Without specifics, I can not discuss what you may have in mind.  Convenience has declined.  Accessibility hasn't.  Indeed, with the replacement of Flash by HTML5 accessibility in terms of audio on web sites has taken a major step forward.
 
So if you want to present a case that can be argued, specifics are necessary.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

I do a lot on-line, and I have certainly encountered more problems that only a very seasoned user can get through, and some sites that cannot be gotten through without multiple screenreaders, if at all.

That is merit enough to prove my point.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

And I see just the opposite.  Accessibility, overall, has done nothing but get better and better in the decades I've been around that issue and we now have every major commercial operating system maker building-in screen reader technology.

Teaching at the college level (and, possibly, even earlier) related to web design discusses accessibility as a design principle, which it certainly didn't when I earned my computer science degree.

The idea that accessibility is getting worse has no merit.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Ervin, Glenn
 

Hi Gene,

I gathered that, but it is my experience that the majority of Blind users, most of whom aren’t even on a listserve, struggle to use even one screenreader, much less other operating systems.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 12:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene
 

I didn't say that this isn't occurring on the Internet.  I haven't used enough sites that are out of my usual use to say.  I am making a general statement about blind people using only one screen-reader, as so many do.  This is the result of poore training.  I wasn't refering specifically to or only to the Internet.  I was discussing how so many blind people don't realize the advantages to using more than one screen-reader on the Internet or elsewhere.  If blind people knew what I said in my last message in the thread, they might be more willing to try other screen-readers so that when one screen-reader doesn't do something well, they might be able to do the thing better or well using another screen-reader.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Jackie
 

W/all due respect, training is not a waste of time, at least if it's
the sort of training that teaches basic principles & not simply rote
memorization, ie, shake hands, roll over, speak, etc. That's just
performing commands on cue, & that sort of training is indeed
worthless. When I did adaptive tech--& admittedly, it was a long time
ago--I actually used to encourage my students to get into trouble, ie,
they would check w/me about a keystroke to press, &, knowing it was
the wrong 1, I'd tell them to go ahead. My rationale was that they
were going to get themselves into situations where they were
confronted w/stuff I hadn't taught them, & they needed to understand
the basic principles of how to cope w/the unexpected. That may at 1st
blush sound really cruel, but those that made it thru expressed that
was the 1 thing they really appreciated about my approach, ie, that I
believed they could recover on their own by using the tools they'd
been taught.

Accessibility, IMO, has overall greatly improved. The use of mobile
devices, where screen real estate is important, thereby eliminating a
lot of the big gawdy banners & sliders etc, has improved things, as
has legislation in the developed world mandating accessibility. I
recall when Windows was completely inaccessible to us--now we can
basically install it independently. So I'd also disagree w/the
gloom-&-doom naysayers who think we'll someday never be able to use a
computer. The truth is, we have more options now than we've ever had.
I recall when Apple was totally inaccessible, for example, & when we
couldn't use a cell phone to do anything but basic calling.
Change is a constant, & screenreading technology will have to evolve
w/it. On the other hand, there are now accessibility guidelines in
place for many technologies, which there weren't in the last century.
Overall, I think we're in better shape than we've ever been.
Truthfully, I wish I'd been born into this century, as I think, at
least from a technology perspective, things will overall only improve,
as a general rule.

On 9/27/18, Rosemarie Chavarria <knitqueen2007@gmail.com> wrote:
Glen,



I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it
may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the
computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly
changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a
waste of time.



Rosemarie



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin,
Glenn
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
Banking Site



Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can
cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have
spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no
work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure
technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult
for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people
being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
Banking Site



That's largely because of poor training, however. Not for everything, but
for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands
that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you
could do before. Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.
a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a
different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot
of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't
use screen-reader commands.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn <mailto:glenn.ervin@nebraska.gov>

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
Banking Site



Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of
us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice,
then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn





From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> > On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My
Banking Site



On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have
to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of
catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.
Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and
particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way
revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one
screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with
two or more screen readers available. That can help to tease out where the
issue might lie.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals,
which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot
co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is
untrue. . .

~ Bertrand Russell










--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Ervin, Glenn
 

As far as desktop systems, I suspect Microsoft is going to move away from them after Windows 10, and desktop systems will be left to Linux.

I think Microsoft will simply sell security upgrades to Windows 7 and 10, with 10 being their last official desktop style operating system.

Thankfully Linux has accessibility built into the main distributions.

If we see Windows discontinuing for desktop systems, we may hope for the developers of NVDA to move over to the Open source Linux platform.

Glenn the uncertain prognosticator

LOL

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 11:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Glen,

 

I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a waste of time.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ervin, Glenn

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Glen,

 

I think you might be right. A friend of mine was telling me one time that it may get to the point where we'll be totally locked out from using the computer. I agree with you about the training. If things are constantly changing, then what good is it to have all that training? It would be just a waste of time.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ervin, Glenn
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 7:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Gene,

All it takes is one element that is a show stopper for someone, and that can cause them to stop using a screenreader and give up using a computer.

I have been a computer user and teacher since the days of DOS, and I have spent hours stuck on a page because of inaccessible pages that have no work-around, unless you come to a list like this to find out some obscure technique that happens to work.

It sure seems like more and more of this is happening, and it is difficult for screenreaders to keep up.

I don’t agree with your assertion that it is just a matter of training.

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:04 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

That's largely because of poor training, however.  Not for everything, but for a lot of what people do, you can learn perhaps ten or fifteen commands that are different for a different screen-reader and do a lot of what you could do before.  Most of what people do uses Windows or program commands.  a different screen-reader may use different screen review commands and a different command for read title bar and certain other commands, but a lot of what people do would be the same because a lot of what is done doesn't use screen-reader commands.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 9:43 AM

Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Although this concept of using multiple screenreaders is okay for those of us who can do that, but if it comes to that as generally accepted practice, then the majority of users are left behind.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:58 AM, Davy Cuppens wrote:

Simply told, the procedure is unaccessible so cal your bank and tel them.

Not that I don't think this is a good idea, because it is, but you also have to understand that accessibility will always be, to some extent, a game of catch up.

Web coding keeps changing at blinding speed, and that's not going to stop.  Sometimes it's a matter of the screen readers catching up to it, and particularly when the reason for doing a certain thing a certain way revolves around increased security.

It's really generally helpful to check to see if what doesn't work under one screen reader might work under another if you happen to have a system with two or more screen readers available.  That can help to tease out where the issue might lie.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Ervin, Glenn
 

The trouble is though that we may see a lot of folks settle for less control over their Internet experiences , choosing to use voice controlled devices over the complexity of page elements that are emerging.

With devices getting smaller, we are seeing a shift from desktop computer-based systems in favor of more portable technology.

Although keyboards are used with this portable age, it makes me wonder of the future of Windows in a non-portable situation, like in home computers.

We, where I work,  are still using Windows in the office, and our business people rely on Windows and desktop computers for the business management aspect, but most field staff are using IOS for most of their work.

And maybe the IOS and Android  and Windows phone-based OS is where everything is going, and it seems like those environments, at least IOS, suffers less difficulty with web content and accessibility.  But that will bring a whole new set of accessibility considerations.

For me, I use a lot of IOS gestures for the touch screen, and a quick review gets me back into the IOS keyboard commands, but it is not my preferred method of accessing the web.

But I am more old-school in that regard, and maybe most of the next generation will be more comfortable doing everything on platforms like IOS/Android than I am and those older than I.

 

Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 10:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Accessibility in the web world is, and always has been, a game of catch-up.  That is going to get worse, at least in cycles, rather than better.

That is not indicative of the long-term arc, which is unquestionably toward better accessibility.

I'm not denying that when periods of rapid change in web coding appear, there are corresponding periods of accessibility woes.  These days, though, those tend to resolve in favor of accessibility, which was not necessarily the case for decades.

If one goes in knowing this, and accepting it as a simple fact, one can avoid a lot of "gloom and doom" thinking, if not frustration.  It's supremely frustrating when what had worked is jettisoned for something that, for the moment, anyway, is inaccessible.  Nothing is so constant as change.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

Accessibility in the web world is, and always has been, a game of catch-up.  That is going to get worse, at least in cycles, rather than better.

That is not indicative of the long-term arc, which is unquestionably toward better accessibility.

I'm not denying that when periods of rapid change in web coding appear, there are corresponding periods of accessibility woes.  These days, though, those tend to resolve in favor of accessibility, which was not necessarily the case for decades.

If one goes in knowing this, and accepting it as a simple fact, one can avoid a lot of "gloom and doom" thinking, if not frustration.  It's supremely frustrating when what had worked is jettisoned for something that, for the moment, anyway, is inaccessible.  Nothing is so constant as change.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Ervin, Glenn
 

I do a lot on-line, and I have certainly encountered more problems that only a very seasoned user can get through, and some sites that cannot be gotten through without multiple screenreaders, if at all.

That is merit enough to prove my point.

Glenn

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:45 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

And I see just the opposite.  Accessibility, overall, has done nothing but get better and better in the decades I've been around that issue and we now have every major commercial operating system maker building-in screen reader technology.

Teaching at the college level (and, possibly, even earlier) related to web design discusses accessibility as a design principle, which it certainly didn't when I earned my computer science degree.

The idea that accessibility is getting worse has no merit.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Ervin, Glenn wrote:

I think with this most recent trend, we will see less and less Blind people being able to access pages.

I don’t know the solution, but I see a bad trend here.

I hope I’m wrong about the trend.

And I see just the opposite.  Accessibility, overall, has done nothing but get better and better in the decades I've been around that issue and we now have every major commercial operating system maker building-in screen reader technology.

Teaching at the college level (and, possibly, even earlier) related to web design discusses accessibility as a design principle, which it certainly didn't when I earned my computer science degree.

The idea that accessibility is getting worse has no merit.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: The latest versions of NVDA will not install on my Acer Swift Notebook

John J. Boyer
 

However, I am running the same antivirus program on a Windows Pro machine and the latest version of NVDA just
installed there with no problems.

John

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 09:28:20AM +0100, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
What anti virus are you using?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "John J. Boyer"
<john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:18 AM
Subject: [nvda] The latest versions of NVDA will not install on my Acer
Swift Notebook


The machine is running Windows 10 home, presumably a recent update. The
last version that will install is 2018.2.1.
Subsequent attempts to install end with the Windows error message
instalation terminated by User. I have not taken any
action
since pressing the install button. The machine eventually returns to a
normal window, but memory has been corrupted. I
have to restart to get things to work normally.

John

--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM
services
that are available at no cost






--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM services
that are available at no cost


Re: The latest versions of NVDA will not install on my Acer Swift Notebook

John J. Boyer
 

I am using Webroot secure Anywhere.

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 09:28:20AM +0100, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
What anti virus are you using?
Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "John J. Boyer"
<john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2018 9:18 AM
Subject: [nvda] The latest versions of NVDA will not install on my Acer
Swift Notebook


The machine is running Windows 10 home, presumably a recent update. The
last version that will install is 2018.2.1.
Subsequent attempts to install end with the Windows error message
instalation terminated by User. I have not taken any
action
since pressing the install button. The machine eventually returns to a
normal window, but memory has been corrupted. I
have to restart to get things to work normally.

John

--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM
services
that are available at no cost






--
John J. Boyer
Email: john.boyer@abilitiessoft.org
website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: Company dissolved but website and email addresses live.
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Mission: developing assistive technology software and providing STEM services
that are available at no cost


Re: O.T.: A friend needs info on screen readers history for her thesis

Ervin, Glenn
 

Yeah, what was that synth that was used in the old movie War Games?
Was that not really a synth, or was it a Hollywood created sound of a synthesizer?
And what was the model of that computer the kid used?
Glenn

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Susan Gerhart
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 11:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] O.T.: A friend needs info on screen readers history for her thesis

Try these podcasts with episodes interviwing pioneers:

Eyes On Success, Tech Doctor, Blind Cool Tech, Accessible World

American Printing House for Blind goes way back as does the CSUN Annual Conference and Jim Thatcher at IBM Austin

That's a great thesis topic!

Susan G
blog: AsYourWorldChanges.wordpress.com


Re: Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

Ervin, Glenn
 

I work with a lot of middle-agers and seniors who have lost their sight, and web content becoming less accessible is not promising for them.

Many of them struggled with having to learn Jaws and basic accessible pages in years past, and I see these problems, and although I can manage multiple screenreaders and multiple operating systems, I believe this is worse for the larger Blindness population.

I think that for most Blind people, we will see the move away from screenreaders and reliance on things like Amazon Echo and the like, simply because of the complexity that I see emerging with web content and this struggle with having to use more and more tools to get the same job done.

I don’t like it, but it may be a sad reality.

 

Glenn

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problem With Submit Button On My Banking Site

 

The use of more than one screen reader is already "generally accepted practice" among a very large part of the screen-reader using population.  Now with both NVDA and Narrator having two at your fingertips is far less of a challenge.

It is a simple fact that certain sites "play better" with certain screen readers at certain points in time.  If one has the option to have a "backup screen reader" and to learn enough of the basic commands to fall back to it when one's favored screen reader is misbehaving with a given site, program, etc., that's simply the wise thing to do.

If you can't, you can't, but that's a separate issue.  And it's completely separate from promoting what is, in fact, best practice for the real world.  Whatever the area of pursuit there is a generally accepted "best practice," but not everyone can do it.  That doesn't mean it shouldn't be encouraged for those who can.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell