Date   

Re: Nvda remote access

Jackie
 

Hey, Joe, you're more than welcome, believe me! If all the problems I
had to solve were that simple, I'd be walkin' in clover lol.

There was just a lot of discussion on this list awhile back that the
old NVDA Remote was incompatible w/the latest version of NVDA, & that
the authors had just recently updated it to make it so. I was blessed
to have remembered all that, I guess, & it didn't hurt either that it
affected me as well.

Have a great weekend.

On 10/12/18, Joe Paton <patonplace@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Jackie,
That, indeed was the problem. I had version 1.2, version 2.2, fixed the
issue.

Thank you so much.
Joe



--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com


Re: No voice, Power Point Slide Show view on Laptop with HDMI connected, NVDA restart fixes problem

Rick
 

Hello Joseph:

 

I will look into this as I try to replicate the problem using a TV monitor instead of a projector and see if the sound actually gets rerouted. However, this only happens on the Power Point Slide Show window. All other windows continue speaking out the default speaker. I would think that all speech would be rerouted and not just the slide show. Additionally, once I restart NVDA, I can open and close Power Point and the speech continues to come out the default speaker when starting a slide show.

 

Also, Narrator does not exhibit this problem.

 

Rick

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 3:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] No voice, Power Point Slide Show view on Laptop with HDMI connected, NVDA restart fixes problem

 

Hi,

This may have to do with audio output redirection: when an HDMI cable is connected, sound is sent through the cable, so NVDA may not recognize that you’ve still got your internal sound card active. You can ask NVDA to speak through a chosen sound card via Synthesizer/output device combo box (Control+NVDA+S).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 12:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] No voice, Power Point Slide Show view on Laptop with HDMI connected, NVDA restart fixes problem

 

I have 2 high-end Lenovo laptops with nVidia graphics cards. Both are running Windows 10 Professional and Office 365 desktop apps. One computer is brand new while the other is 3 years old. These are work computers, so Windows and Office are updated within the last few months and not necessarily running the absolute latest updates. I am running the latest released version of NVDA and have no addin present. I have Microsoft Speech API Version 5 as my voice.

 

If connected to projectors using the HDMI port, putting a Power Point presentation into slide show mode (by pressing the F5 key) I lose all speech output on that particular window. It doesn’t matter if I am using the internal speakers or am connected to a wired or wireless headset. Alt tabbing to other windows and NVDA speaks just fine, but not on the slide show window. Moving from slide to slide produces no speech. If the HDMI connection is not present, NVDA speaks just fine in slide show mode.

 

If I now restart NVDA with Power Point still displaying the slide show and the HDMI connection still present, everything works as expected. NVDA reads the slides as I navigate from slide to slide, using the internal speakers or connected headset.

 

I tried restarting NVDA after booting the computer to see if it was a problem with the autostart of NVDA completing prior to other parts of the system completing initialization, but it still failed to speak in slide show window until restarting NVDA after launching Power Point.

 

Rick

 


Re: Nvda remote access

Joe Paton
 

Hello Jackie,
That, indeed was the problem. I had version 1.2, version 2.2, fixed the issue.

Thank you so much.
Joe


Re: No voice, Power Point Slide Show view on Laptop with HDMI connected, NVDA restart fixes problem

 

Hi,

This may have to do with audio output redirection: when an HDMI cable is connected, sound is sent through the cable, so NVDA may not recognize that you’ve still got your internal sound card active. You can ask NVDA to speak through a chosen sound card via Synthesizer/output device combo box (Control+NVDA+S).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 12:32 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] No voice, Power Point Slide Show view on Laptop with HDMI connected, NVDA restart fixes problem

 

I have 2 high-end Lenovo laptops with nVidia graphics cards. Both are running Windows 10 Professional and Office 365 desktop apps. One computer is brand new while the other is 3 years old. These are work computers, so Windows and Office are updated within the last few months and not necessarily running the absolute latest updates. I am running the latest released version of NVDA and have no addin present. I have Microsoft Speech API Version 5 as my voice.

 

If connected to projectors using the HDMI port, putting a Power Point presentation into slide show mode (by pressing the F5 key) I lose all speech output on that particular window. It doesn’t matter if I am using the internal speakers or am connected to a wired or wireless headset. Alt tabbing to other windows and NVDA speaks just fine, but not on the slide show window. Moving from slide to slide produces no speech. If the HDMI connection is not present, NVDA speaks just fine in slide show mode.

 

If I now restart NVDA with Power Point still displaying the slide show and the HDMI connection still present, everything works as expected. NVDA reads the slides as I navigate from slide to slide, using the internal speakers or connected headset.

 

I tried restarting NVDA after booting the computer to see if it was a problem with the autostart of NVDA completing prior to other parts of the system completing initialization, but it still failed to speak in slide show window until restarting NVDA after launching Power Point.

 

Rick

 


No voice, Power Point Slide Show view on Laptop with HDMI connected, NVDA restart fixes problem

Rick
 

I have 2 high-end Lenovo laptops with nVidia graphics cards. Both are running Windows 10 Professional and Office 365 desktop apps. One computer is brand new while the other is 3 years old. These are work computers, so Windows and Office are updated within the last few months and not necessarily running the absolute latest updates. I am running the latest released version of NVDA and have no addin present. I have Microsoft Speech API Version 5 as my voice.

 

If connected to projectors using the HDMI port, putting a Power Point presentation into slide show mode (by pressing the F5 key) I lose all speech output on that particular window. It doesn’t matter if I am using the internal speakers or am connected to a wired or wireless headset. Alt tabbing to other windows and NVDA speaks just fine, but not on the slide show window. Moving from slide to slide produces no speech. If the HDMI connection is not present, NVDA speaks just fine in slide show mode.

 

If I now restart NVDA with Power Point still displaying the slide show and the HDMI connection still present, everything works as expected. NVDA reads the slides as I navigate from slide to slide, using the internal speakers or connected headset.

 

I tried restarting NVDA after booting the computer to see if it was a problem with the autostart of NVDA completing prior to other parts of the system completing initialization, but it still failed to speak in slide show window until restarting NVDA after launching Power Point.

 

Rick

 


Re: Nvda remote access

Jackie
 

Have you downloaded the latest update of NVDA remote?

On 10/12/18, Joe Paton <patonplace@gmail.com> wrote:
Good evening,

In the latest batch of NVDA releases, the option to connect to remote
devices, has gone. It used to be under tools, remote, now there is
nothing.
Has this function been removed? or, where is it now? the plug in is
installed, and active.
Many thanks.



--
Remember! Friends Help Friends Be Cybersafe
Jackie McBride
Helping Cybercrime Victims 1 Person at a Time
https://brighter-vision.com


Re: Screen reader accessibility with Kindle

Annette Moore
 

I use a program called Codex to convert the books and then QRead to read them if I want to read them on the computer. I do the same thing if I want to read them on the phone, except then I upload them to Dropbox and use Voice Dream Reader. I do have Kindle for PC on here though, and that does work well if I want to use it. I have a voice preference though, so I do take those extra steps and use Ivona Kendra with QRead or Voice Dream.

Annette

On 10/12/2018 10:30 AM, Clarissa Mitchell wrote:
I've used the Kindle for PC app, and the latest version has the
accessibility function built directly in. You used to have to install
a separate plugin for it to work; now it's just there. The app is free
too. I think you do need to have NVDA on at the same time, in order to
navigate the menu that is accessed by pressing the alt key. Regarding
books that don't have this enabled, I'm pretty sure you can find out,
when you go to the book's page on Amazon. It will say whether speech
is enabled or not on the Kindle version of the book. hth



On 10/12/18, Dave <dlh007@centurylink.net> wrote:
Why not just download the Kendal for PC program?

I've been using it for about a year, and have bought close to 15 Books
so far and counting.

Almost all Books will let you read their Text with JAWS or NVDA. But I
have purchased Two Books that do not allow the use of a Screen Reader,
but the Kendal program attempts to speak the text. It isn't a good
clear voice, and so far I've not figured a way to re-read a line, or go
back a line or two.

Not sure how to know if a Book will read with the Screen Reader or not.

but, having the Kendal program on your Computer works for me.







Nvda remote access

Joe Paton
 

Good evening,

In the latest batch of NVDA releases, the option to connect to remote devices, has gone. It used to be under tools, remote, now there is nothing.
Has this function been removed? or, where is it now? the plug in is installed, and active.
Many thanks.


Re: Hi

Gene
 

However, does using this add--on discourage learning how to use screen-review commands in NVDA?  and does this lack of learning mean that, when it is advisable to use the activate command available on the numpad or to use the route and click virtual mouse commands NVDA provides, the user won't know how to do these things?  This may be an add-on that duplicates functions already available in NVDA where the user would be much better off learning the NVDA way to do things if the user if at all demanding and who wishshes to go beyond rather elementary learning.  Also, some NVDA review commands are essential for working with Windows 10 apps.  It sounds like a bad idea to have such an add-on that discourages learning of the screen-reader itself.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Hi

Hi
Download and install the Virtual review addon then you can use
NVDA+Control+w to virtualise a window then browse it using arrow keys.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Michael
Munn
Sent: 12 October 2018 16:49
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Hi

Hi all, This is Michael. i have a question about a feature in NVDA.
How can one virtualize a window using NVDA? I'm asking that because
yesterday I was doing something with NVDa and some error message pop up and
I couldn't read it because I don't know how to virtualize the message.
I would be able to read it if I use Jaws. I'm not saying bad thing about the
nvda Screen reader.
Please help if you all can.
Best Regards Michael Munn





Re: Hi

Chris Mullins
 

Hi
Download and install the Virtual review addon then you can use
NVDA+Control+w to virtualise a window then browse it using arrow keys.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Michael
Munn
Sent: 12 October 2018 16:49
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Hi

Hi all, This is Michael. i have a question about a feature in NVDA.
How can one virtualize a window using NVDA? I'm asking that because
yesterday I was doing something with NVDa and some error message pop up and
I couldn't read it because I don't know how to virtualize the message.
I would be able to read it if I use Jaws. I'm not saying bad thing about the
nvda Screen reader.
Please help if you all can.
Best Regards Michael Munn


Re: Hi

Gene
 

    In JAWS, you can place a window in the Virtual PC cursor buffer as though it were a web page.  Or, if         NVDA had this feature, it would be in the browse mode buffer.  This allows the user to move around in a window such as an error dialog as though there were a cursor when there isn't.  You can copy to the clipboard just as you can on a web page.  But NVDA, as you know, but for those who don't, can do the same things in different ways. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, October 12, 2018 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Hi

Please explain what you mean by "virtualize a window".

That phrase doesn't mean anything to me (and therefore, maybe not to others
here either).

Antony.

On Friday 12 October 2018 at 17:48:43, Michael Munn wrote:

> Hi all, This is Michael. i have a question about a feature in NVDA.
> How can one virtualize a window using NVDA? I'm asking that because
> yesterday I was doing something with NVDa and some error message pop up
> and I couldn't read it because I don't know how to virtualize the message.
> I would be able to read it if I use Jaws. I'm not saying bad thing about
> the nvda Screen reader. Please help if you all can.
> Best Regards Michael Munn

--
BASIC is to computer languages what Roman numerals are to arithmetic.

                                                   Please reply to the list;
                                                         please *don't* CC me.



Re: Hi

Gene
 

You can't virtualize a window using NVDA.  You need to use screen review keys.  do you know them?  If you want to copy screen material to the clipboard where there is no cursor, such as in an error dialog, you need to use screen review keys and an NVDA command to copy the material to the clipboard. 
 
I won't answer further in this message because I want to be sure what you need to know.  From your message, it sounds as though you need to know screen review commands and how to copy text to the clipboard as I discussed.  There are explanations in the manual of all this.  I can look up sections where it is.
 
but others may provide the information and/or explanations of their own so I'll see how things develop.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
> Hi all, This is Michael. i have a question about a feature in NVDA.
> How can one virtualize a window using NVDA? I'm asking that because
> yesterday I was doing something with NVDa and some error message pop up
> and I couldn't read it because I don't know how to virtualize the message.
> I would be able to read it if I use Jaws. I'm not saying bad thing about
> the nvda Screen reader. Please help if you all can.
> Best Regards Michael Munn

--
BASIC is to computer languages what Roman numerals are to arithmetic.

                                                   Please reply to the list;
                                                         please *don't* CC me.



Re: Speeding up one-core voices.

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I didn't think of that. Thanks for the tip.



On 10/11/2018 11:10 PM, David Moore wrote:

Hey Rosemarie!

When you hear system, keep right arrowing until you hear the ease of access category and press enter!

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2018 6:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Speeding up one-core voices.

 

I just tried that and it didn't work. Where's the ease of access setting? The first thing I found was system instead of ease of access.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Monday, October 8, 2018 10:58 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Speeding up one-core voices.

 

Hi all!

To speed up the One Core voices:

Press Windows+I to open the settings app.

Tab once, and go to the Ease of access category!

Then, go to speech and press enter.

Then, tab to more speech settings and press enter.

Then, tab to a slider, and use page up to increase it to its maximum.

Then, just get out of settings with Alt+F4!

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John Isige
Sent: Monday, October 8, 2018 11:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Speeding up one-core voices.

 

Hi all. Where do you go to adjust the speed of one-core voices? Not in

NVDA, you go somewhere else to increase the speed in Windows. I can't

for the life of me remember it, so of course I need to do it. I thought

it was in control panel but I guess not. Thanks in advance, I'm sure

bunches of you know.

 

 

 

 

 


Re: keyboard

Chris Mullins
 

Hi

To help with the fact that the shift key is not announced with command keys on, you could go to the voice dialog NVDA+alt+v and set up either a Capital pitch percentage, say cap when typing a capital letter or beep when typing a capital letter.  Then set speak type characters on with NVDA+2, and your newbie will be able to hear that capital letters are being typed.

 

Cheers

Chris   

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Quentin Christensen
Sent: 12 October 2018 01:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] keyboard

 

NVDA+4 toggles speak command keys.  That won't announce if you just press SHIFT and let it go, but it will announce "CONTROL+S" if you press those keys.

 

You can also access that option from the "Keyboard" settings (NVDA+CONTROL+K to get there directly, or via the NVDA menu).

 

In order to practise the keyboard, you can also use NVDA's "Input help" mode.  Press NVDA+1 to turn Input help on.  From then, you can press any key or key combination and NVDA will announce what you have pressed (including things like shift on its own) and what NVDA function it performs (if it's an NVDA keystroke).  The keys won't do anything however, so if you press the WINDOWS key, NVDA will report it, but the Windows Start menu will not open.

Press NVDA+1 to turn input help off again.

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 10:57 AM Robert Doc Wright godfearer <godfearer@...> wrote:

I am working with a NVDA newby. how does she set NVDA so that the control and shift keys are spoken. she wants this because her keyboard is not standard.


 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

 

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Hi

Rui Fontes
 

Hi!

David, in some cases, the NVDA object navigation is better then Jaws 18 cursor... With the new cursor of Jaws 2018 and 2019 I don't know...

And there are an addon to virtualize the window.., see in:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/virtualRevision.en.html

Rui Fontes




Às 17:35 de 12/10/2018, David Griffith escreveu:

The phrase Virtualised window is often used to describe the process where text is collected from a Screen GUII and presented in a virtual window buffer which a screenreader can use.
In relation to the original question NVDA in the first case will most often read a window / dialogue box with the same keypress as Jaws – that is NVDA plus B.
Unfortunately NVDA does not have all the same cursor abilities as Jaws but if NVDA plus B does not deliver the required results then some options are still available.
First of all you can try object navigation.  Basically you can experiment with pressing numbers of the keypad if you have desktop layout to see if you get any useful results. You can refer to the User Guide for more detailed and explicit instructions.
Finally you can use the inbuilt Windows 10 OCR facility with NVDA simply by pressing NVDA plus R.
This is often as good as if not better than Jaws Virtual Convenient OCR in relation to reading window contents.
If using earlier  versions of windows you will need to download an Virtual OCR  addon but I must admit when I used to use this it did not deliver many useful results in my experience.
David Griffith.
My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts
*From: *Antony Stone <mailto:antony.stone@nvda.open.source.it>
*Sent: *12 October 2018 17:19
*To: *nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda] Hi
Please explain what you mean by "virtualize a window".
That phrase doesn't mean anything to me (and therefore, maybe not to others
here either).
Antony.
On Friday 12 October 2018 at 17:48:43, Michael Munn wrote:

> Hi all, This is Michael. i have a question about a feature in NVDA.

> How can one virtualize a window using NVDA? I'm asking that because

> yesterday I was doing something with NVDa and some error message pop up

> and I couldn't read it because I don't know how to virtualize the
message.

> I would be able to read it if I use Jaws. I'm not saying bad thing about

> the nvda Screen reader. Please help if you all can.

> Best Regards Michael Munn
--
BASIC is to computer languages what Roman numerals are to arithmetic.
                                                   Please reply to the list;
                                                         please *don't* CC me.


Re: Screen reader accessibility with Kindle

 

Well you could always buy an olimpus dm5 or 4 or the latest dm series most of them have voice and will support daisy among other things.

The cost is as much as an orbit.

As for your average plextalk thats round 700 bucks it is not much more than an orbit.

For software there is amis on the computer, dolphin easy reader on the pc, but I'd try to get v6, I hate the v7 interface thats 80 bucks.

Dolphin seem to have their easy reader app free on smartphones so you could use that I guess.

there is this voice dream reader thingy aparently never used that.

To be honest, while I do read books my plextalk from the library does most things, where I need to really read something I either read it on a computer or something.

Where a daisy book is split into actual tracks I have actually just played the tracks on a standard audio cd player or a media player of choice rather than my registered daisy player.

Its only a problem if the tracks are split weirdly.

On 10/13/2018 2:06 AM, Sociohack AC wrote:
Hello guys!
Since, ebook readers especially customized for blind people, like Victor ebook reader, are very expensive, I'm thinking of buying a Kindle. I have heard that it has a screen reader called voiceview. How good is it? And how long does the battery last while using screen readers for reading books? Also, the latest version of Kindle Paper White doesn't come with an audio jack, so I'm also open to purchasing an older model.
All suggestions are welcome.

Regards
Sociohack



Re: daisy book reader

john s
 

Robert, I use FS Reader fine with Window Eyes.


At 11:21 AM 10/12/2018, Robert Doc Wright godfearer, wrote:
Is there a reader similar to jaws fsReader for NVDA?

                 John


Re: Suggestion regarding replies on this list

Antony Stone
 

Agreed - if the person with the problem has explained clearly enough how to
cause it, and the responder knows they're doing the same thing, it can be
helpful to point out that something else about the machine or the software
configuration must be the culprit, and the user is actually doing the right
things.

Antony.

On Friday 12 October 2018 at 18:37:41, Brian Vogel wrote:

Amen, Antony!!

Not just here, but on any venue where computers and software are being
discussed.

I will, however, say that I do believe that sometimes, "I'm not having that
problem," replies are entirely appropriate when the problem is not being
experienced when taking exactly the same steps as someone has documented.
There are many times when something idiosyncratic about an individual's
computer or software installation is giving them an issue when they're
doing everything as they should but things aren't behaving as they
should. Knowing that others cannot reproduce when doing the same thing
is a valuable piece of diagnostic information.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
--
Tinned food was developed for the British Navy in 1813.

The tin opener was not invented until 1858.

Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.


Re: Suggestion regarding replies on this list

 

Amen, Antony!!

Not just here, but on any venue where computers and software are being discussed.

I will, however, say that I do believe that sometimes, "I'm not having that problem," replies are entirely appropriate when the problem is not being experienced when taking exactly the same steps as someone has documented.   There are many times when something idiosyncratic about an individual's computer or software installation is giving them an issue when they're doing everything as they should but things aren't behaving as they should.   Knowing that others cannot reproduce when doing the same thing is a valuable piece of diagnostic information.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

           ~ Bertrand Russell

 

 


Re: Hi

David Griffith
 

The phrase Virtualised window is often used to describe the process where text is collected from a Screen GUII and presented in a virtual window buffer which a screenreader can use.

 

In relation to the original question NVDA in the first case will most often read a window / dialogue box with the same keypress as Jaws – that is NVDA plus B.

Unfortunately NVDA does not have all the same cursor abilities as Jaws but if NVDA plus B does not deliver the required results then some options are still available.

First of all you can try object navigation.  Basically you can experiment with pressing numbers of the keypad if you have desktop layout to see if you get any useful results. You can refer to the User Guide for more detailed and explicit instructions.

Finally you can use the inbuilt Windows 10 OCR facility with NVDA simply by pressing NVDA plus R.

This is often as good as if not better than Jaws Virtual Convenient OCR in relation to reading window contents.

If using earlier  versions of windows you will need to download an Virtual OCR  addon but I must admit when I used to use this it did not deliver many useful results in my experience.

David Griffith.

My Blind Access and Guide dog Blog
http://dgriffithblog.wordpress.com/
My Blind hammer Blog
https://www.westhamtillidie.com/authors/blind-hammer/posts

 

From: Antony Stone
Sent: 12 October 2018 17:19
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Hi

 

Please explain what you mean by "virtualize a window".

 

That phrase doesn't mean anything to me (and therefore, maybe not to others

here either).

 

Antony.

 

On Friday 12 October 2018 at 17:48:43, Michael Munn wrote:

 

> Hi all, This is Michael. i have a question about a feature in NVDA.

> How can one virtualize a window using NVDA? I'm asking that because

> yesterday I was doing something with NVDa and some error message pop up

> and I couldn't read it because I don't know how to virtualize the message.

> I would be able to read it if I use Jaws. I'm not saying bad thing about

> the nvda Screen reader. Please help if you all can.

> Best Regards Michael Munn

 

--

BASIC is to computer languages what Roman numerals are to arithmetic.

 

                                                   Please reply to the list;

                                                         please *don't* CC me.