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Re: determining the color of a text in Excel with NVDA
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 06:48 AM, Rick wrote:
Clearly, NVDA cannot simply look at the color format to determine a number’s negativity, it must look at the underlying value of the cell.Which is what it should be doing and should be reporting. That is the data. I have been saying this all along. The visual formatting elements are for those that have vision, the sensory apparatus to apprehend it. It is to aid them with knowing something about the value, but that is separate from the value itself. I really don't get what's difficult about this in any way, shape, or form. If something's defined at the cell level as numeric (regardless of whether currency, etc.) its actual value must be reported accurately. Since there is one major conventional formatting for negative numbers in accounting that relies on color only, and omits the pivotal piece of information about the nature of the value, it's the value that should be spoken. Even if custom formatting using color is applied to indicate something about positive values that are out of range (which definitely happens) that custom formatting is not of any use to someone who can't see it, but they would need to know in their heads what the acceptable ranges are if they are in a position where evaluating same were part of their job. Most of the world is sighted, and the use of color to assist the sighted world is never going to go away, nor should it. It's a perfectly legitimate tool for the majority of users. But whether it's used or not does not increase nor decrease the burden on those who have no access to it, as they'd need to know what it represents in context and keep that information in their heads (or another external prosthetic memory) to refer to when dealing with those figures. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 The terrible state of public education has paid huge dividends in ignorance. Huge. We now have a country that can be told blatant lies — easily checkable, blatant lies — and I’m not talking about the covert workings of the CIA. When we have a terrorist attack, on September 11, 2001 with 19 men — 15 of them are Saudis — and five minutes later the whole country thinks they’re from Iraq — how can you have faith in the public? This is an easily checkable fact. The whole country is like the O.J. Simpson jurors. ~ Fran Lebowitz in Ruminator Magazine interview with Susannah McNeely (Aug/Sept 2005)
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Re: OCR programs
Abdurrahman Taş
Hi all, Does OmniPage support arabic documents? İf yes, how can reach this program?
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Best regards. Rui Fontes <rui.fontes@...> şunları yazdı (22 Eki 2018 13:55):
FineReader, from Abbyy, and OmniPage, from Nuance, are the two best OCR in the world...
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Re: Advantages of NVDA over narrator on public terminals
erik burggraaf <erik@...>
1, multi-language support, particularly in officially bylingual or culturally diverse regions. 2, ability to provide braille support built in particularly for the deaf-blind and considering low cost options such as orbit and brailleme. 3, Configuration options for custom apps that require extra overhead, although this is terrible design practice and should be avoided. 4, touch screen support for keosks that are touch based. 5, Frequent but optional updates to ensure stability, compatibility and performance. 6, Entities implementing NVDA in public spaces for accessible computing or terminal applications can and should pay something to support the development, but have the flexibility to choose when and how much. That's what strikes me off the top of my head. Hope this helps, Erik
On October 21, 2018 1:32:23 AM "hurrikennyandopo ..." <hurrikennyandopo@...> wrote:
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Re: Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA
Richard Wells
I have seen this issue intermittently over the last three or four
versions of Windows 10 and NVDA and I only use stable ones as
well.
On 10/23/2018 5:47 AM, farhan israk
wrote:
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Re: Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA
Rechell Schwartz <rechell_schwartz@...>
I am sending mine too since I had problems too.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Quentin Christensen
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 7:42 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA
HI Farhan,
In Windows 10: 1) Press WINDOWS+E to open File Explorer 2) Press alt+d to go to the address bar (File Explorer has an address bar now) 3) type: %temp% and press ENTER (That's the word temp with a percent sign before and after) 4) In the folder that opens, look for "nvda.log" and "nvda-old.log" they are your last two NVDA logs (or current and last if NVDA is currently running). 5) Copy whichever one has the relevant information and paste it into a message / add it as an attachment to me at info@... (you can reply here if you paste the text in the body, but if you attach the file itself, send it to me directly as you can't send attachments to the group).
Regards
Quentin.
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 9:47 PM farhan israk <fahim.net.2014@...> wrote:
-- Quentin Christensen
Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
---------------------
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Re: can't exit out of winamp
Brice Mijares
You probably mean win Key plus tab. Point is, win amp isn't ready for prime time.
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On 10/22/2018 7:48 PM, Robert Doc Wright godfearer wrote:
you can press winKey +t
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How to size and position an Embedded object in Power Point
Rick
I am using the latest version of Power Point desktop app on a Windows 10 pro computer with the latest released version of NVDA, no addins.
Power Point provides the capability to embed objects into a presentation (e.g. Visio document). This provides the capability to open the embedded object in Power Point with the native application for editing. It also preserves the resolution and can reduce file size. If I select one of these embedded objects and press the application key, I am presented with several options (e.g. format object and edit alt text). If this were a graphic (like a jpeg, png, etc.) I would be presented with a third option to size and position the graphic.
If I choose the option to format the object, an older, non-accessible dialog appears. There are visual tabs, one of which allow one to change the size and position of the embedded object, but I cannot find a way to navigate to these tabs. If a sighted person selects one of these tabs using the mouse, I am able to edit the size and position, but I cannot find a way to select any of these tabs using the keyboard. I have used all the current NVDA navigation methods (screen and object review) along with the traditional CTRL+Tab key combination without success.
Any ideas?
Rick
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Re: Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA
Quentin Christensen
HI Farhan, In Windows 10: 1) Press WINDOWS+E to open File Explorer 2) Press alt+d to go to the address bar (File Explorer has an address bar now) 3) type: %temp% and press ENTER (That's the word temp with a percent sign before and after) 4) In the folder that opens, look for "nvda.log" and "nvda-old.log" they are your last two NVDA logs (or current and last if NVDA is currently running). 5) Copy whichever one has the relevant information and paste it into a message / add it as an attachment to me at info@... (you can reply here if you paste the text in the body, but if you attach the file itself, send it to me directly as you can't send attachments to the group). Regards Quentin.
On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 9:47 PM farhan israk <fahim.net.2014@...> wrote:
--
Quentin Christensen Training and Support Manager Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess Twitter: @NVAccess
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Re: can't exit out of winamp
Robert Doc Wright godfearer
I wihsh I knew why my experience is so different
than yours. i have not had a problem since installing it. I'm running it on
windows 10 pro which shouldn't make a difference.
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Re: determining the color of a text in Excel with NVDA
Rick
Hello Gene:
It’s not that the cells aren’t being read it is that the value reported in some cells is not negative. You can still select all the cells and apply formatting to change this behavior.
Excel is like a table in Word, a grid of data. Typically, one row would be considered a header that would contain descriptions of the columns of data below them. Then, under this header row would be rows of data, which can be textural, numeric or a combination of both. In the case of an accounting sheet, the row contents might be similar to a checking account register, with items like transaction number, description, vendor, amount and balance. Only the amount and balance should be formatted as numbers, most likely currency.
You can label header rows and columns so that descriptions are also spoken when reading a cell’s content. Moving around the cells does not require the typical table navigation commands like used in browse mode. Simply using the arrow keys will allow you to move up, down, left and right a cell at a time.
Rick
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 10:44 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] determining the color of a text in Excel with NVDA
Rick and all To use the format option you speak of, wouldn't that mean that all the cells would have to be selected first? The very cells that aren't indicated when reading? If so, that's a classic catch 22. I don't use Excel but if it works the way programs usually work, to change something, it must be selected first.
If that isn't how Excel works, it would be interesting and useful to know.
Laurie I find your objection that undesired reading might occur if the way things are read is changed to be without merit. first, the problem is that what is needed to be read isn't read at all. Assumedly, other color methods for indicating states or attributes of numbers would not be identical to this means of indicating negative. If they were, sighted users wouldn't know what is meant. So the screen-reader should be able to recognize this specific case while not causing problems. But if a problem is found, it can be corrected while still solving the current problem.
Gene ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] determining the color of a text in Excel with NVDA
Excellent post-- thank you Rick!
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Re: determining the color of a text in Excel with NVDA
Rick
Hello Brian et.al.
Assuming that the NVDA community wants the screen reader to change its behavior and indicate negative numbers as such and not as formatted, what is the precise desired behavior? I use the word precise because that is what the NVDA developers need in order to apply new behavior.
Let’s take the example of bright red to indicate a negative number. Clearly, NVDA cannot simply look at the color format to determine a number’s negativity, it must look at the underlying value of the cell. For example, in the industry where I work, we use conditional formatting to apply red to values that are out of a particular range. Once NVDA determines that the cell contains a negative number, it can then speak its value. However, I would want that value spoken with the applied formatting (e.g. currency, number of decimal places, color, bold, italic, etc.) Now, what if the value is formatted to use parenthesis to indicate a negative number? Should NVDA speak a negative number or read the parenthesis? If it speaks a negative number, again, it must retain the remaining formatting as above.
As Quentin pointed out, his choices for number and currency formatting are different than mine, suggesting variants due to localization. NVDA would need to consider these variants when applying formatting.
This all works well when moving around from cell to cell and the whole cell value is spoken. What should happen when using the numpad keyboard to read a cell’s content one character at a time? Should it inject a phantom negative sign or should it read the cells content as formatted? What if parenthesis are present, should it ignore them? Currently, when reading by word using the numpad, the negative sign is treated as a separate word. Again, should NVDA inject a phantom negative sign for numbers formatted not to use a negative sign?
I am also concerned that having NVDA check each cell for poorly formatted numbers could impose a performance degradation, resulting in slower response to reading a cell’s content. I would hope that this could be a feature that could be disabled. I, for one, will never create a spreadsheet using these formatting mechanisms.
One last caveat to consider. Only Excel knows the underlying numeric value of these cells. If the cells are copied to Word, only the formatted characters are copied. If the worksheet is printed to a pdf, only the formatted values are present. If the worksheet is printed and later scanned using OCR, only the formatted value is present.
While a band-aid could be applied to NVDA to manage poorly formatted negative numbers in Excel, it does not change the fact that these formats exist outside of Excel and that we as screen reader users must be able to deal with interpreting these archaic methods of representation. Even sighted people must understand the underlying meaning of color to decide if it means a negative number or a out of range value, or whatever the designer meant to convey with color. As I stated earlier, use of color alone to convey meaning violates one of the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. Educating content creators is another avenue that must not be overlooked.
Rick
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Mary, Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 The terrible state of public education has paid huge dividends in ignorance. Huge. We now have a country that can be told blatant lies — easily checkable, blatant lies — and I’m not talking about the covert workings of the CIA. When we have a terrorist attack, on September 11, 2001 with 19 men — 15 of them are Saudis — and five minutes later the whole country thinks they’re from Iraq — how can you have faith in the public? This is an easily checkable fact. The whole country is like the O.J. Simpson jurors. ~ Fran Lebowitz in Ruminator Magazine interview with Susannah McNeely (Aug/Sept 2005)
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Re: Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA
farhan israk
I started using Windows 10 in January, 2018. Since then I'm facing this problem. I don't use insider version. I use stable version of Windows 10 and regularly update it. Now I'm using Windows 10 1803. For this reason I use jaws. There I don't face this type of problem. But, I want to use nvda. How to send debug log?
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, 2:02 pm Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io, <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote: You have to admire the creativity of auto spell check sometimes, How a mis
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Re: can't exit out of winamp
Clare Page <clare.page@...>
Hi!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
For me, the new Winamp behaves like the old one, including being able to exit the program with alt+F4 as I have always done. I am using the Winamp Classic skin, that might make a difference. Bye for now! From Clare
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brice Mijares Sent: mardi 23 octobre 2018 03:51 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] can't exit out of winamp Well, thanks for the heads up on the new win amp. I'll stick with the old version until all problems have been resolved. On 10/22/2018 6:43 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote: That didn't work either. I just tried it.
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Re: can't exit out of winamp
Brian's Mail list account
No for some reason you had the new skin engine in. I found this on the earlier version. Maybe the new version has it set by default?
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Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] can't exit out of winamp Pressing the alt key and arrowing up to C and hitting enter would close the
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Re: can't exit out of winamp
Brian's Mail list account
If you don't it falls over half way, so one assumes they did that.
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Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Doc Wright godfearer" <godfearer@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 3:45 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] can't exit out of winamp if this is the new version did you uninstall the old one first? ----- Original Message ----- From: Rosemarie Chavarria To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 7:37 PM Subject: [nvda] can't exit out of winamp Hi, everyone, I tried exiting winamp but this new version isn't responding. Is there a different way to get out? I tried alt f-4 and x but it didn't work. To be honest, I hate this version of winamp! Rosemarie
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Re: can't exit out of winamp
Brian's Mail list account
I suspect its down to the choices you made at install time. Winamp was always a bit messy as if you chose badly the pull down menu was not visible at all.
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Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Doc Wright godfearer" <godfearer@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 3:50 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] can't exit out of winamp hmm, i am not running into any of the problems mentioned.
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Re: can't exit out of winamp
Brian's Mail list account
They will not be changing the 5.8 version. Due to copyright issues a lot of the code is owned by the successor to AOL and they intend to replace this with non copyright code and then put out a version 6.0. That may be OK but who knows at this stage. The 5.8 was only put out officially as somebody leaked it and they were worried dodgy copies might be around with viruses, so made an official download.
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I suspect it is in the config that the problem is, so maybe it needs some further tweaking. Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 2:54 AM Subject: Re: [nvda] can't exit out of winamp I'm gonna reinstall the older version of winamp. At least I can work with it. I won't even touch the new version until they get all the bugs worked out of it. -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brice Mijares Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 6:51 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] can't exit out of winamp Well, thanks for the heads up on the new win amp. I'll stick with the old version until all problems have been resolved. On 10/22/2018 6:43 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote: That didn't work either. I just tried it.
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Re: can't exit out of winamp
Brian's Mail list account
I had problems even installing it. It has to be said that its a beta, and has some rough edges still. I seem to recall the set up is key, ie the old skins normally allow exit better, but I've gone back to the old one.
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Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosemarie Chavarria" <knitqueen2007@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 2:37 AM Subject: [nvda] can't exit out of winamp Hi, everyone,
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Re: Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA
Brian's Mail list account
You have to admire the creativity of auto spell check sometimes, How a mis spelling of the word sighted, became segregated is anyone's guess.
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Still it could have been worse, it could have put in a rude word instead! grin. Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io" <bglists@...> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [nvda] Sometimes I Can't Stop NVDA Yes sometimes it seems that nvda is reading an old buffer. I seem to think some recent work is going on in this regard actually, but normally, simply bringing up a menu, then cancelling it will wake up the new buffer. I'm not sure why this sometimes happens but suspect nvda is reading a large amount of text its already buffered for reading and has missed the fact that the text has gone as this is in the web page buffer, not the nvda speech one.
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Re: NVDA and VirtualBox
John Isige
I'm pretty sure I recall one of the devs saying that you have to use the
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command line to set up a virtual machine with it. I think at least one of them uses/used it to test.
On 10/22/2018 23:52, Kelly wrote:
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