Date   

Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Amen, Andy. I couldn't have said it any better. I commend Tony for the hard work he put in to this add-on. Yes, if it makes reading articles on web sites easier, then I say go for it.

 

Rosemarie

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy
Sent: Monday, December 3, 2018 2:22 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

 

If this list were composed of sighted persons we wouldn't even be having this discussion.  Whenever topics like this come up on a blind list, there is always a chorus that keeps singing the virtues of doing things the hardest way possible.  I recall in the mid 90s when individual employees at our facility were issues PCs and were expected to use them.  many of the staff were older and had no experience using a PC.  There were classes, but they were designed to be short in duration, and they made many assumptions about the level of experience and ability of the persons taking the class.  It was quite common for people to ask for assistance from coworkers who were more experienced.  That assistance was always gladly given, in fact, I gave much assistance myself.

I do not recall anyone telling someone to read a manual, etc.  But on these lists people are often called out when they ask for assistance, or a developer who wants to address a need is told that their product is either unnecessary or even harmful. The range of experience and ability is just as wide among the blind as among the sighted.  Why can't we demonstrate the same level of understanding and compassion as we did at our facility?  If an add on or software program can enable someone to benefit from computing who might otherwise be deprived of this benefit, why not support it?  There is way too much computer equipment sitting in closets gathering dust because people did not receive the support they needed to learn to use it, and were often put down when they came on lists, chats, etc. and asked for help. I commend Tony for his efforts and wish him success.

 

Andy

 

"He who lives on hope will die of starvation".

Benjamin Franklin

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 1:25 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

 

Tony,

         First, thanks much for the time and effort you put in to creating this add-on.

         Although I can agree that a number of points brought up since the initial announcement have some validity, many go well beyond the scope of your add-on alone and could be applied to any number of NVDA add-ons and, in fact, are really separate philosophical and practical issues of their own.

         You're a better man than I, as I know I would be feeling, "No good deed goes unpunished," were I you, and not being nearly so gracious about it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Andy
 


If this list were composed of sighted persons we wouldn't even be having this discussion.  Whenever topics like this come up on a blind list, there is always a chorus that keeps singing the virtues of doing things the hardest way possible.  I recall in the mid 90s when individual employees at our facility were issues PCs and were expected to use them.  many of the staff were older and had no experience using a PC.  There were classes, but they were designed to be short in duration, and they made many assumptions about the level of experience and ability of the persons taking the class.  It was quite common for people to ask for assistance from coworkers who were more experienced.  That assistance was always gladly given, in fact, I gave much assistance myself.
I do not recall anyone telling someone to read a manual, etc.  But on these lists people are often called out when they ask for assistance, or a developer who wants to address a need is told that their product is either unnecessary or even harmful. The range of experience and ability is just as wide among the blind as among the sighted.  Why can't we demonstrate the same level of understanding and compassion as we did at our facility?  If an add on or software program can enable someone to benefit from computing who might otherwise be deprived of this benefit, why not support it?  There is way too much computer equipment sitting in closets gathering dust because people did not receive the support they needed to learn to use it, and were often put down when they came on lists, chats, etc. and asked for help. I commend Tony for his efforts and wish him success.
 
Andy
 
"He who lives on hope will die of starvation".
Benjamin Franklin
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Tony,

         First, thanks much for the time and effort you put in to creating this add-on.

         Although I can agree that a number of points brought up since the initial announcement have some validity, many go well beyond the scope of your add-on alone and could be applied to any number of NVDA add-ons and, in fact, are really separate philosophical and practical issues of their own.

         You're a better man than I, as I know I would be feeling, "No good deed goes unpunished," were I you, and not being nearly so gracious about it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Gene
 

No one said the add-on shouldn't be used.  I have no objection to anyone using it and I already said it is very useful as a reading add-on.  This is more the case now than years ago.  In the old days, lots of sites had printer friendly versions of articles.  Now, these have largely disappeared.  Articles have blocks of links interspersed in the article showing related content and other information.  And then there are advertisements.  So the app is filling an important need.  But that's what it is, a reading app. 
 
I'm saying that if you show someone a very easy way to do what you claim is a very large part of something, they will often be much less motivated and likely to learn the rest of what they should know.  This is different than starting with simple concepts or information and building on it to develop skill and understanding of later material.  It is being promoted as though it eliminates the need to learn more.  If you tell someone that this simple one-command add-on will allow them to do ninety percent of what they want to do on the Internet, the person may well adopt the attitude, I'll just do without the other ten percent. 
 
You can't use Google with the add-on.  Google doesn't display articles.  It performs the essential and crucial function of showing you how to find information, including articles.
 
You can't use Youtube, you can't use the Spotify site, you can't use Amazon.  As I said, it’s a reading add-on.
 
I have no objection to demonstrating how easy it is to read material and a lot of people would be very interested in using it for that.  But it doesn't allow you to do ninety percent of what you want to do on the Internet unless almost all you want to do is read articles. 
I'm not worried about the people who already know how to use the Internet reasonably well or better.  But there are a lot of people who don't and who may get the add-on because they believe that it is a way to avoid learning almost anything. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Tyler Wood
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Hi,

Just because you know all of the browse commands (I know them enough myself) doesn't mean this is taking them away from you. I do not understand that logic.

Refusing to use this add on just because you know all of the commands doesn't make it any quicker - you're just giving yourself extra steps because you can.


Adblockers do nothing to hide the share on facebook, share on twitter garbage that 99^ of articles come with.


Sarah - claiming that 90 percent of websites is false, then claiming that more websites are filling with cluttered junk is very contradictory lol. This add on means to get rid of that and I for one applaud.


I include amazon in this. The amount of crap I have to sift through before I actually get to the product description is mind boggling.


On 2018-12-03 2:35 p.m., hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi Tony


Just been taking the add on for a test drive. I agree with you. When i am reading a website with the news on it basically as you already know locate the heading usually with a link then press the enter key to go into the story.


I would then have to jump down a couple of headings then a list box  jump to the end of it  then use the read to end command. Then it would come up with like email, face book etc which are links then the story might start. The add on as you said makes it a lot quicker to get to the story I want to read and leaves out the other stuff i do not want it to read.


I know there are people on this list who would use text based browsers i think one was called webbie and it would strip out the extra stuff and just have the text that could be read out which there are people who find it easier to do.


when a person is learning they  do not want information overload like memorizing all the quick navigation keys they only learn the main ones like headings, lists or links and how to go into a page and back a page.


The rest of the commands they can learn at a later date and are still present even though they are using the add on.


I could see a few of our older people using the add on to get to the story quicker without jumping to many hoops.


My self i can see using it to.


Gene nz





On 4/12/2018 9:10 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Gene,
I don't see your comments hostile at all. You provide very reasonable
feedback for me, and I really appreciate that, though I don't quite
agree with some of your points.
1. TextNav is indeed supposed to be the easier way. The question is
whether this is good or bad in from the absolute point of view. I
agree it will reduce motivation for people to learn the proper way.
The good thing is it might allow some other people e.g. older people,
to use Internet. This is the trade off I see. Time will decide if it
is good or bad. But again, remember my example with Microsoft Windows?
Exactly the same argument was made, that Windows will make people lazy
and they will not learn the proper way to interact with computer using
command prompt. And then decades went by, and the right way became the
Windows way. So, sometimes, the definition of what's proper can
change. Not today, today as we agree, TextNav is not good enough to
fully replace traditional browse mode commands. But what I'm trying to
say is giv give a chance to the new tools. Give Windows and automatic
transmissions a chance. Nobody would blame you today that you don't
know how to press clutch.
2. You are trying to say that students first should learn Internet the
hard way, and only then try TextNav. I'm not a teacher, but I don't
understand why we cannot reverse the order. We don't learn calculus
before arithmetics. In general this is how education works, we start
with simple things and over the years learn more complicated things.
Why learning screenreaders must be an exception? When you're saying
that students won't learn the traditional browse mode commands because
TextNav is works for them, I can claim that students won't learn
calculus, because they're good enough with 3rd grade arithmetics. I'm
sorry to point that out, I hope you won't consider this to be a sign
of hostility, and I respect your point of view, but I just can't quite
agree with it.
3. I want to promote my add-on. I want more blind people to be aware
of it and at least try it once. I think it is going to be beneficial
for 90% of blind people. But it is very hard to communicate the
message. Last time I tried explainning to people what it really is and
not many people got it. So this time I decided to try marketing
techniques. I do exagerate things, but only a little bit. You might be
right when you want to call it just a reading add-on, but if I call it
a reading add-on, then only two users will actually try it. By calling
it "the new way of browsing Internet" I hope to attract some more
attention. Am I deceptive? Maybe a little bit, but nowhere near as
much as a typical TV commercial.

Sarah,
Please see my comment to Gene about the order of learning things.
I would still defend my 90/90% statement. The example of Amazon you
gave falls into the 10% that's not covered by TextNav - just because
there are form controls there. If a website has buttons and edit
boxes, obviously you cannot navigate it effectively using TextNav.
But let me give you a list of web sites where textNav would greatly
improve your efficiency:
News websites (hundreds of them), forums (thousands of them), blogs
(tens of thouusands, maybe more? whatever), product pages, Wikipedia
and other smaller wiki sites, online documentation sites.
These are just the major categories. Basically all the web sites where
you don't need to interact with form elements and that have some text
on them.

Sam
TextNav looks for text written in full sentences that are separated by periods.


On 12/3/18, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be
honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws
back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.

Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my
commands have dropped.

I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but
I honestly don't use that many comands at all.



On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn
all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then
could I learn other ways other easier ways.

Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so.
Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of
gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your
second claim is faulse, or soon might be.

On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
development.

Best
Tony



On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly.  You only tried
the
skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
article.  I
said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
does.  The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful
command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles
on web
pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
say.  My
concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give
them
far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be
disuaded
from doing so.  So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for
and its
limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on
that
allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all
interruptions to
the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.
I think
that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the
Internet in
a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music
sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the
other ways
of web navigation NVDA offers.  I don't object to the add-on but
there are
many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
self-confidence,
severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they
can't
do things they can do.  I'm not sure just how you would present the
add-on
but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but
you are
extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation
to use
search sites.  Even many of the older people you are discussing, I
suspect,
would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
have any
idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
knowledgeable
user?  Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the
information is
better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether
someone
is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some
other
relevant company or organization, and other information, if
available that
may help me assess his reliability.  None of this is heard in the
current
way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums.  Some people like to
hang out
on political forums.  they might well want to know who is writing so
they
can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
skimming, or
paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums.  As I said, I don't know if the
add-on can have some sort of forums mode.  I don't have the technical
knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
reading
mode.  This is an important feature.  Many people may use the add-on
to find
the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
article because they don't want to issue a command every few
sentences while
reading.  If there were an automatic read command, this would allow
people
to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the
add-on
would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command.  .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed
pages of a
newspaper.  A bit of information may be provided about guest
columnists that
may be useful to readers.  If someone works at a conservative think
tank,
his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal
one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.
That puts
me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he
works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is
important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav.  First, it isn't a
substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages.  If you use it
before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than
straight
reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when
reading the
page you used is not correct.  it is thirteen times more efficient
if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something
like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your
comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links
command, the letter n.  That gets you much much closer to the article
text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts.  On some pages, move by heading works better.  On some,
move by
skip
nnavigation works bettter.  on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better.  On some, the find command works
better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you
experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
way.
I want to be clear.  I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article.  But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly.  For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I
would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or
forty or
more times.  The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on.  It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
reliability
or what his credentials are.  Also, as you continue to read and
even if
you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who
it is
from.  You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is
commenting
on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making
other
comments.  If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't
know
if
this can be done.  I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
That
is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage
its
further development.  Critics mmay be your best friends in such
situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in
knowing
such
other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh









.

--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

MAX <max@...>
 

That fixed it. Thank you very much.


73 (Regards).

Max K 4 O D S.

I've Never Lost the Wonder.

Antique Electronics Site: http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sarah k
Alawami
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 11:50 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet

Agreed. I also skip the names of the guys who wrote comments, authors of
articless, Take care. I could care less. I use a reader in safari so I just
go past all of that and vo right fast until I get to the text as I don't
trust vo command n which does the same as the n key in nvda.

On 2 Dec 2018, at 20:56, Tony Malykh wrote:

Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav. First, it isn't a
substitute for learning the layout and structures of web pages. If
you use it before you know these things, you may not learn to deal
with other than straight reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when reading
the page you used is not correct. it is thirteen times more
efficient if you don't know how to work with internet pages for
reading something like an article well, but you used a very
inefficient method for your comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links command, the letter n. That gets you much much closer to the
article text because it skips most of the material on this page
before the article starts. On some pages, move by heading works
better. On some, move by skip nnavigation works bettter. on some,
move by heading, then using skip navigation links works better. On
some, the find command works better. You may not find an efficient
way to work with a page until you experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
way.
I want to be clear. I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in skipping to the first sentence of an article. But you
don't hear the author, you may not hear introductory material you
might want to hear, and, if the article is more than two or three
paragraphs, it would be exceedingly tedious to issue the move to next
paragraph command repeatedly. For a somewhat long news article or a
somewhat long magazine article, I would imagine you might have to
issue the command twenty or thirty or forty or more times. The
add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on. It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information that might be of interest such as what rating the person
has for reliability or what his credentials are. Also, as you
continue to read and even if you know when a second post is beginning
to be read, you don't know who it is from. You can't be sure all the
time, I would think, who is commenting on comments for the first time
or who is making comments after making other comments. If the add-on
is going to really be useful in such an environment, it needs to do
more than just skip through entries by paragraph and not give you any
information such as what I described. I don't know if this can be
done. I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
That is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
people call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage its further development. Critics mmay be your best
friends in such situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading, I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that
notify me of something when I am reading an article and am not
interested in knowing such other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh








Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Don H
 

After installing this addon on my Win 10 1809 system and using Google Chrome I enter into a state where NVDA starts reading everything on the page and nothing will stop it. I can not even use alt f4 to close the web site.


Re: Collaborative document editing with NVDA

Tony Malykh
 

There is also:
http://collabedit.com/
Plain text only, I think it is primarily designed for online coding,
but can be used for any kind of text editing.

On 12/3/18, Quentin Christensen <quentin@nvaccess.org> wrote:
NVDA works with both Google Docs and Word with their collaborative
features.

Of course, if you find any issues, do please let me know as I don't use
those features myself very often.

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 6:24 AM Sile via Groups.Io <somodhrain=
googlemail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hello


Has anyone found a platform (e.g. google docs, Microsoft word, or
whatever) that works with NVDA and supports collaborative editing in a
robust way?


Yours,


--Sile





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess




Re: Collaborative document editing with NVDA

Quentin Christensen
 

NVDA works with both Google Docs and Word with their collaborative features.

Of course, if you find any issues, do please let me know as I don't use those features myself very often.

Quentin.

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 6:24 AM Sile via Groups.Io <somodhrain=googlemail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Hello


Has anyone found a platform (e.g. google docs, Microsoft word, or
whatever) that works with NVDA and supports collaborative editing in a
robust way?


Yours,


--Sile







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Annette Moore
 

Is this add-on different from what would be reader view in firefox? of course, reader view doesn't always work, so on the sites where it doesn't, would I then replace that with this add-on? Or is this something completely different?

Annette

On 12/3/2018 2:48 PM, Tyler Wood wrote:

Hi,

Just because you know all of the browse commands (I know them enough myself) doesn't mean this is taking them away from you. I do not understand that logic.

Refusing to use this add on just because you know all of the commands doesn't make it any quicker - you're just giving yourself extra steps because you can.


Adblockers do nothing to hide the share on facebook, share on twitter garbage that 99^ of articles come with.


Sarah - claiming that 90 percent of websites is false, then claiming that more websites are filling with cluttered junk is very contradictory lol. This add on means to get rid of that and I for one applaud.


I include amazon in this. The amount of crap I have to sift through before I actually get to the product description is mind boggling.


On 2018-12-03 2:35 p.m., hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi Tony


Just been taking the add on for a test drive. I agree with you. When i am reading a website with the news on it basically as you already know locate the heading usually with a link then press the enter key to go into the story.


I would then have to jump down a couple of headings then a list box  jump to the end of it  then use the read to end command. Then it would come up with like email, face book etc which are links then the story might start. The add on as you said makes it a lot quicker to get to the story I want to read and leaves out the other stuff i do not want it to read.


I know there are people on this list who would use text based browsers i think one was called webbie and it would strip out the extra stuff and just have the text that could be read out which there are people who find it easier to do.


when a person is learning they  do not want information overload like memorizing all the quick navigation keys they only learn the main ones like headings, lists or links and how to go into a page and back a page.


The rest of the commands they can learn at a later date and are still present even though they are using the add on.


I could see a few of our older people using the add on to get to the story quicker without jumping to many hoops.


My self i can see using it to.


Gene nz


 



On 4/12/2018 9:10 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Gene,
I don't see your comments hostile at all. You provide very reasonable
feedback for me, and I really appreciate that, though I don't quite
agree with some of your points.
1. TextNav is indeed supposed to be the easier way. The question is
whether this is good or bad in from the absolute point of view. I
agree it will reduce motivation for people to learn the proper way.
The good thing is it might allow some other people e.g. older people,
to use Internet. This is the trade off I see. Time will decide if it
is good or bad. But again, remember my example with Microsoft Windows?
Exactly the same argument was made, that Windows will make people lazy
and they will not learn the proper way to interact with computer using
command prompt. And then decades went by, and the right way became the
Windows way. So, sometimes, the definition of what's proper can
change. Not today, today as we agree, TextNav is not good enough to
fully replace traditional browse mode commands. But what I'm trying to
say is giv give a chance to the new tools. Give Windows and automatic
transmissions a chance. Nobody would blame you today that you don't
know how to press clutch.
2. You are trying to say that students first should learn Internet the
hard way, and only then try TextNav. I'm not a teacher, but I don't
understand why we cannot reverse the order. We don't learn calculus
before arithmetics. In general this is how education works, we start
with simple things and over the years learn more complicated things.
Why learning screenreaders must be an exception? When you're saying
that students won't learn the traditional browse mode commands because
TextNav is works for them, I can claim that students won't learn
calculus, because they're good enough with 3rd grade arithmetics. I'm
sorry to point that out, I hope you won't consider this to be a sign
of hostility, and I respect your point of view, but I just can't quite
agree with it.
3. I want to promote my add-on. I want more blind people to be aware
of it and at least try it once. I think it is going to be beneficial
for 90% of blind people. But it is very hard to communicate the
message. Last time I tried explainning to people what it really is and
not many people got it. So this time I decided to try marketing
techniques. I do exagerate things, but only a little bit. You might be
right when you want to call it just a reading add-on, but if I call it
a reading add-on, then only two users will actually try it. By calling
it "the new way of browsing Internet" I hope to attract some more
attention. Am I deceptive? Maybe a little bit, but nowhere near as
much as a typical TV commercial.

Sarah,
Please see my comment to Gene about the order of learning things.
I would still defend my 90/90% statement. The example of Amazon you
gave falls into the 10% that's not covered by TextNav - just because
there are form controls there. If a website has buttons and edit
boxes, obviously you cannot navigate it effectively using TextNav.
But let me give you a list of web sites where textNav would greatly
improve your efficiency:
News websites (hundreds of them), forums (thousands of them), blogs
(tens of thouusands, maybe more? whatever), product pages, Wikipedia
and other smaller wiki sites, online documentation sites.
These are just the major categories. Basically all the web sites where
you don't need to interact with form elements and that have some text
on them.

Sam
TextNav looks for text written in full sentences that are separated by periods.


On 12/3/18, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be
honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws
back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.

Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my
commands have dropped.

I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but
I honestly don't use that many comands at all.



On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn
all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then
could I learn other ways other easier ways.

Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so.
Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of
gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your
second claim is faulse, or soon might be.

On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
development.

Best
Tony



On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly.  You only tried
the
skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
article.  I
said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
does.  The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful
command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles
on web
pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
say.  My
concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give
them
far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be
disuaded
from doing so.  So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for
and its
limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on
that
allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all
interruptions to
the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.
I think
that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the
Internet in
a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music
sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the
other ways
of web navigation NVDA offers.  I don't object to the add-on but
there are
many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
self-confidence,
severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they
can't
do things they can do.  I'm not sure just how you would present the
add-on
but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but
you are
extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation
to use
search sites.  Even many of the older people you are discussing, I
suspect,
would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
have any
idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
knowledgeable
user?  Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the
information is
better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether
someone
is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some
other
relevant company or organization, and other information, if
available that
may help me assess his reliability.  None of this is heard in the
current
way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums.  Some people like to
hang out
on political forums.  they might well want to know who is writing so
they
can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
skimming, or
paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums.  As I said, I don't know if the
add-on can have some sort of forums mode.  I don't have the technical
knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
reading
mode.  This is an important feature.  Many people may use the add-on
to find
the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
article because they don't want to issue a command every few
sentences while
reading.  If there were an automatic read command, this would allow
people
to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the
add-on
would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command.  .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed
pages of a
newspaper.  A bit of information may be provided about guest
columnists that
may be useful to readers.  If someone works at a conservative think
tank,
his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal
one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.
That puts
me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he
works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is
important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav.  First, it isn't a
substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages.  If you use it
before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than
straight
reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when
reading the
page you used is not correct.  it is thirteen times more efficient
if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something
like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your
comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links
command, the letter n.  That gets you much much closer to the article
text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts.  On some pages, move by heading works better.  On some,
move by
skip
nnavigation works bettter.  on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better.  On some, the find command works
better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you
experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
way.
I want to be clear.  I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article.  But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly.  For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I
would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or
forty or
more times.  The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on.  It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
reliability
or what his credentials are.  Also, as you continue to read and
even if
you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who
it is
from.  You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is
commenting
on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making
other
comments.  If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't
know
if
this can be done.  I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
That
is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage
its
further development.  Critics mmay be your best friends in such
situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in
knowing
such
other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh









.

--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

 

Tony,

         First, thanks much for the time and effort you put in to creating this add-on.

         Although I can agree that a number of points brought up since the initial announcement have some validity, many go well beyond the scope of your add-on alone and could be applied to any number of NVDA add-ons and, in fact, are really separate philosophical and practical issues of their own.

         You're a better man than I, as I know I would be feeling, "No good deed goes unpunished," were I you, and not being nearly so gracious about it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Sarah k Alawami
 

Yeah amazon just over all sucks ! I use my text find command but amazon jumps away from that when I read rating etc, at least on the mac side of things, unless I go to amazon.com/access which strips everything out.

On 3 Dec 2018, at 12:48, Tyler Wood wrote:

Hi,

Just because you know all of the browse commands (I know them enough myself) doesn't mean this is taking them away from you. I do not understand that logic.

Refusing to use this add on just because you know all of the commands doesn't make it any quicker - you're just giving yourself extra steps because you can.


Adblockers do nothing to hide the share on facebook, share on twitter garbage that 99^ of articles come with.


Sarah - claiming that 90 percent of websites is false, then claiming that more websites are filling with cluttered junk is very contradictory lol. This add on means to get rid of that and I for one applaud.


I include amazon in this. The amount of crap I have to sift through before I actually get to the product description is mind boggling.


On 2018-12-03 2:35 p.m., hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi Tony


Just been taking the add on for a test drive. I agree with you. When i am reading a website with the news on it basically as you already know locate the heading usually with a link then press the enter key to go into the story.


I would then have to jump down a couple of headings then a list box  jump to the end of it  then use the read to end command. Then it would come up with like email, face book etc which are links then the story might start. The add on as you said makes it a lot quicker to get to the story I want to read and leaves out the other stuff i do not want it to read.


I know there are people on this list who would use text based browsers i think one was called webbie and it would strip out the extra stuff and just have the text that could be read out which there are people who find it easier to do.


when a person is learning they  do not want information overload like memorizing all the quick navigation keys they only learn the main ones like headings, lists or links and how to go into a page and back a page.


The rest of the commands they can learn at a later date and are still present even though they are using the add on.


I could see a few of our older people using the add on to get to the story quicker without jumping to many hoops.


My self i can see using it to.


Gene nz


 



On 4/12/2018 9:10 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Gene,
I don't see your comments hostile at all. You provide very reasonable
feedback for me, and I really appreciate that, though I don't quite
agree with some of your points.
1. TextNav is indeed supposed to be the easier way. The question is
whether this is good or bad in from the absolute point of view. I
agree it will reduce motivation for people to learn the proper way.
The good thing is it might allow some other people e.g. older people,
to use Internet. This is the trade off I see. Time will decide if it
is good or bad. But again, remember my example with Microsoft Windows?
Exactly the same argument was made, that Windows will make people lazy
and they will not learn the proper way to interact with computer using
command prompt. And then decades went by, and the right way became the
Windows way. So, sometimes, the definition of what's proper can
change. Not today, today as we agree, TextNav is not good enough to
fully replace traditional browse mode commands. But what I'm trying to
say is giv give a chance to the new tools. Give Windows and automatic
transmissions a chance. Nobody would blame you today that you don't
know how to press clutch.
2. You are trying to say that students first should learn Internet the
hard way, and only then try TextNav. I'm not a teacher, but I don't
understand why we cannot reverse the order. We don't learn calculus
before arithmetics. In general this is how education works, we start
with simple things and over the years learn more complicated things.
Why learning screenreaders must be an exception? When you're saying
that students won't learn the traditional browse mode commands because
TextNav is works for them, I can claim that students won't learn
calculus, because they're good enough with 3rd grade arithmetics. I'm
sorry to point that out, I hope you won't consider this to be a sign
of hostility, and I respect your point of view, but I just can't quite
agree with it.
3. I want to promote my add-on. I want more blind people to be aware
of it and at least try it once. I think it is going to be beneficial
for 90% of blind people. But it is very hard to communicate the
message. Last time I tried explainning to people what it really is and
not many people got it. So this time I decided to try marketing
techniques. I do exagerate things, but only a little bit. You might be
right when you want to call it just a reading add-on, but if I call it
a reading add-on, then only two users will actually try it. By calling
it "the new way of browsing Internet" I hope to attract some more
attention. Am I deceptive? Maybe a little bit, but nowhere near as
much as a typical TV commercial.

Sarah,
Please see my comment to Gene about the order of learning things.
I would still defend my 90/90% statement. The example of Amazon you
gave falls into the 10% that's not covered by TextNav - just because
there are form controls there. If a website has buttons and edit
boxes, obviously you cannot navigate it effectively using TextNav.
But let me give you a list of web sites where textNav would greatly
improve your efficiency:
News websites (hundreds of them), forums (thousands of them), blogs
(tens of thouusands, maybe more? whatever), product pages, Wikipedia
and other smaller wiki sites, online documentation sites.
These are just the major categories. Basically all the web sites where
you don't need to interact with form elements and that have some text
on them.

Sam
TextNav looks for text written in full sentences that are separated by periods.


On 12/3/18, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be
honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws
back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.

Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my
commands have dropped.

I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but
I honestly don't use that many comands at all.



On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn
all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then
could I learn other ways other easier ways.

Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so.
Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of
gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your
second claim is faulse, or soon might be.

On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
development.

Best
Tony



On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly.  You only tried
the
skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
article.  I
said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
does.  The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful
command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles
on web
pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
say.  My
concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give
them
far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be
disuaded
from doing so.  So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for
and its
limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on
that
allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all
interruptions to
the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.
I think
that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the
Internet in
a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music
sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the
other ways
of web navigation NVDA offers.  I don't object to the add-on but
there are
many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
self-confidence,
severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they
can't
do things they can do.  I'm not sure just how you would present the
add-on
but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but
you are
extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation
to use
search sites.  Even many of the older people you are discussing, I
suspect,
would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
have any
idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
knowledgeable
user?  Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the
information is
better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether
someone
is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some
other
relevant company or organization, and other information, if
available that
may help me assess his reliability.  None of this is heard in the
current
way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums.  Some people like to
hang out
on political forums.  they might well want to know who is writing so
they
can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
skimming, or
paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums.  As I said, I don't know if the
add-on can have some sort of forums mode.  I don't have the technical
knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
reading
mode.  This is an important feature.  Many people may use the add-on
to find
the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
article because they don't want to issue a command every few
sentences while
reading.  If there were an automatic read command, this would allow
people
to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the
add-on
would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command.  .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed
pages of a
newspaper.  A bit of information may be provided about guest
columnists that
may be useful to readers.  If someone works at a conservative think
tank,
his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal
one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.
That puts
me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he
works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is
important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav.  First, it isn't a
substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages.  If you use it
before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than
straight
reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when
reading the
page you used is not correct.  it is thirteen times more efficient
if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something
like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your
comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links
command, the letter n.  That gets you much much closer to the article
text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts.  On some pages, move by heading works better.  On some,
move by
skip
nnavigation works bettter.  on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better.  On some, the find command works
better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you
experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
way.
I want to be clear.  I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article.  But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly.  For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I
would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or
forty or
more times.  The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on.  It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
reliability
or what his credentials are.  Also, as you continue to read and
even if
you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who
it is
from.  You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is
commenting
on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making
other
comments.  If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't
know
if
this can be done.  I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
That
is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage
its
further development.  Critics mmay be your best friends in such
situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in
knowing
such
other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh











.



      
--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Tyler Wood
 

Hi,

Just because you know all of the browse commands (I know them enough myself) doesn't mean this is taking them away from you. I do not understand that logic.

Refusing to use this add on just because you know all of the commands doesn't make it any quicker - you're just giving yourself extra steps because you can.


Adblockers do nothing to hide the share on facebook, share on twitter garbage that 99^ of articles come with.


Sarah - claiming that 90 percent of websites is false, then claiming that more websites are filling with cluttered junk is very contradictory lol. This add on means to get rid of that and I for one applaud.


I include amazon in this. The amount of crap I have to sift through before I actually get to the product description is mind boggling.


On 2018-12-03 2:35 p.m., hurrikennyandopo ... wrote:

Hi Tony


Just been taking the add on for a test drive. I agree with you. When i am reading a website with the news on it basically as you already know locate the heading usually with a link then press the enter key to go into the story.


I would then have to jump down a couple of headings then a list box  jump to the end of it  then use the read to end command. Then it would come up with like email, face book etc which are links then the story might start. The add on as you said makes it a lot quicker to get to the story I want to read and leaves out the other stuff i do not want it to read.


I know there are people on this list who would use text based browsers i think one was called webbie and it would strip out the extra stuff and just have the text that could be read out which there are people who find it easier to do.


when a person is learning they  do not want information overload like memorizing all the quick navigation keys they only learn the main ones like headings, lists or links and how to go into a page and back a page.


The rest of the commands they can learn at a later date and are still present even though they are using the add on.


I could see a few of our older people using the add on to get to the story quicker without jumping to many hoops.


My self i can see using it to.


Gene nz


 



On 4/12/2018 9:10 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Gene,
I don't see your comments hostile at all. You provide very reasonable
feedback for me, and I really appreciate that, though I don't quite
agree with some of your points.
1. TextNav is indeed supposed to be the easier way. The question is
whether this is good or bad in from the absolute point of view. I
agree it will reduce motivation for people to learn the proper way.
The good thing is it might allow some other people e.g. older people,
to use Internet. This is the trade off I see. Time will decide if it
is good or bad. But again, remember my example with Microsoft Windows?
Exactly the same argument was made, that Windows will make people lazy
and they will not learn the proper way to interact with computer using
command prompt. And then decades went by, and the right way became the
Windows way. So, sometimes, the definition of what's proper can
change. Not today, today as we agree, TextNav is not good enough to
fully replace traditional browse mode commands. But what I'm trying to
say is giv give a chance to the new tools. Give Windows and automatic
transmissions a chance. Nobody would blame you today that you don't
know how to press clutch.
2. You are trying to say that students first should learn Internet the
hard way, and only then try TextNav. I'm not a teacher, but I don't
understand why we cannot reverse the order. We don't learn calculus
before arithmetics. In general this is how education works, we start
with simple things and over the years learn more complicated things.
Why learning screenreaders must be an exception? When you're saying
that students won't learn the traditional browse mode commands because
TextNav is works for them, I can claim that students won't learn
calculus, because they're good enough with 3rd grade arithmetics. I'm
sorry to point that out, I hope you won't consider this to be a sign
of hostility, and I respect your point of view, but I just can't quite
agree with it.
3. I want to promote my add-on. I want more blind people to be aware
of it and at least try it once. I think it is going to be beneficial
for 90% of blind people. But it is very hard to communicate the
message. Last time I tried explainning to people what it really is and
not many people got it. So this time I decided to try marketing
techniques. I do exagerate things, but only a little bit. You might be
right when you want to call it just a reading add-on, but if I call it
a reading add-on, then only two users will actually try it. By calling
it "the new way of browsing Internet" I hope to attract some more
attention. Am I deceptive? Maybe a little bit, but nowhere near as
much as a typical TV commercial.

Sarah,
Please see my comment to Gene about the order of learning things.
I would still defend my 90/90% statement. The example of Amazon you
gave falls into the 10% that's not covered by TextNav - just because
there are form controls there. If a website has buttons and edit
boxes, obviously you cannot navigate it effectively using TextNav.
But let me give you a list of web sites where textNav would greatly
improve your efficiency:
News websites (hundreds of them), forums (thousands of them), blogs
(tens of thouusands, maybe more? whatever), product pages, Wikipedia
and other smaller wiki sites, online documentation sites.
These are just the major categories. Basically all the web sites where
you don't need to interact with form elements and that have some text
on them.

Sam
TextNav looks for text written in full sentences that are separated by periods.


On 12/3/18, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be
honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws
back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.

Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my
commands have dropped.

I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but
I honestly don't use that many comands at all.



On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn
all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then
could I learn other ways other easier ways.

Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so.
Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of
gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your
second claim is faulse, or soon might be.

On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
development.

Best
Tony



On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly.  You only tried
the
skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
article.  I
said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
does.  The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful
command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles
on web
pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
say.  My
concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give
them
far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be
disuaded
from doing so.  So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for
and its
limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on
that
allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all
interruptions to
the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.
I think
that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the
Internet in
a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music
sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the
other ways
of web navigation NVDA offers.  I don't object to the add-on but
there are
many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
self-confidence,
severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they
can't
do things they can do.  I'm not sure just how you would present the
add-on
but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but
you are
extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation
to use
search sites.  Even many of the older people you are discussing, I
suspect,
would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
have any
idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
knowledgeable
user?  Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the
information is
better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether
someone
is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some
other
relevant company or organization, and other information, if
available that
may help me assess his reliability.  None of this is heard in the
current
way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums.  Some people like to
hang out
on political forums.  they might well want to know who is writing so
they
can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
skimming, or
paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums.  As I said, I don't know if the
add-on can have some sort of forums mode.  I don't have the technical
knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
reading
mode.  This is an important feature.  Many people may use the add-on
to find
the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
article because they don't want to issue a command every few
sentences while
reading.  If there were an automatic read command, this would allow
people
to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the
add-on
would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command.  .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed
pages of a
newspaper.  A bit of information may be provided about guest
columnists that
may be useful to readers.  If someone works at a conservative think
tank,
his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal
one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.
That puts
me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he
works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is
important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav.  First, it isn't a
substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages.  If you use it
before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than
straight
reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when
reading the
page you used is not correct.  it is thirteen times more efficient
if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something
like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your
comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links
command, the letter n.  That gets you much much closer to the article
text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts.  On some pages, move by heading works better.  On some,
move by
skip
nnavigation works bettter.  on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better.  On some, the find command works
better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you
experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
way.
I want to be clear.  I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article.  But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly.  For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I
would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or
forty or
more times.  The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on.  It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
reliability
or what his credentials are.  Also, as you continue to read and
even if
you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who
it is
from.  You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is
commenting
on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making
other
comments.  If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't
know
if
this can be done.  I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
That
is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage
its
further development.  Critics mmay be your best friends in such
situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in
knowing
such
other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh











.



      
--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Gene
 

You ended your message by saying that TextNav looks for full sentences separated by periods.  But if that is all it looks for, it should read advertisements and evidently it skips them.  So does it look for other code as well? 
 
I'll write more later but I want to see what others say and I want to read your message again and think about the best way to reply to some of your points.
 
Gene

Sent: Monday, December 03, 2018 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Gene,
I don't see your comments hostile at all. You provide very reasonable
feedback for me, and I really appreciate that, though I don't quite
agree with some of your points.
1. TextNav is indeed supposed to be the easier way. The question is
whether this is good or bad in from the absolute point of view. I
agree it will reduce motivation for people to learn the proper way.
The good thing is it might allow some other people e.g. older people,
to use Internet. This is the trade off I see. Time will decide if it
is good or bad. But again, remember my example with Microsoft Windows?
Exactly the same argument was made, that Windows will make people lazy
and they will not learn the proper way to interact with computer using
command prompt. And then decades went by, and the right way became the
Windows way. So, sometimes, the definition of what's proper can
change. Not today, today as we agree, TextNav is not good enough to
fully replace traditional browse mode commands. But what I'm trying to
say is giv give a chance to the new tools. Give Windows and automatic
transmissions a chance. Nobody would blame you today that you don't
know how to press clutch.
2. You are trying to say that students first should learn Internet the
hard way, and only then try TextNav. I'm not a teacher, but I don't
understand why we cannot reverse the order. We don't learn calculus
before arithmetics. In general this is how education works, we start
with simple things and over the years learn more complicated things.
Why learning screenreaders must be an exception? When you're saying
that students won't learn the traditional browse mode commands because
TextNav is works for them, I can claim that students won't learn
calculus, because they're good enough with 3rd grade arithmetics. I'm
sorry to point that out, I hope you won't consider this to be a sign
of hostility, and I respect your point of view, but I just can't quite
agree with it.
3. I want to promote my add-on. I want more blind people to be aware
of it and at least try it once. I think it is going to be beneficial
for 90% of blind people. But it is very hard to communicate the
message. Last time I tried explainning to people what it really is and
not many people got it. So this time I decided to try marketing
techniques. I do exagerate things, but only a little bit. You might be
right when you want to call it just a reading add-on, but if I call it
a reading add-on, then only two users will actually try it. By calling
it "the new way of browsing Internet" I hope to attract some more
attention. Am I deceptive? Maybe a little bit, but nowhere near as
much as a typical TV commercial.

Sarah,
Please see my comment to Gene about the order of learning things.
I would still defend my 90/90% statement. The example of Amazon you
gave falls into the 10% that's not covered by TextNav - just because
there are form controls there. If a website has buttons and edit
boxes, obviously you cannot navigate it effectively using TextNav.
But let me give you a list of web sites where textNav would greatly
improve your efficiency:
News websites (hundreds of them), forums (thousands of them), blogs
(tens of thouusands, maybe more? whatever), product pages, Wikipedia
and other smaller wiki sites, online documentation sites.
These are just the major categories. Basically all the web sites where
you don't need to interact with form elements and that have some text
on them.

Sam
TextNav looks for text written in full sentences that are separated by periods.


On 12/3/18, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
> To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be
> honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws
> back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.
>
> Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my
> commands have dropped.
>
> I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but
> I honestly don't use that many comands at all.
>
>
>
> On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
>> I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn
>> all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then
>> could I learn other ways other easier ways.
>>
>> Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so.
>> Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of
>> gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your
>> second claim is faulse, or soon might be.
>>
>> On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:
>>
>>> Gene,
>>> It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
>>> mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
>>> replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
>>> webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
>>> agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
>>> 1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
>>> quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
>>> layout of this website.
>>> 2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
>>> twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
>>> keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
>>> And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
>>> can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
>>> myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
>>> ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
>>> frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
>>> command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
>>> move on to more powerful commands?
>>> 3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
>>> complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
>>> 4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
>>> user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
>>> back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
>>> replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
>>> routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
>>> NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
>>> 5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
>>> wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
>>> reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
>>> development.
>>>
>>> Best
>>> Tony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>>> I'll discuss some points:
>>>> First, something that I can comment on very briefly.  You only tried
>>>> the
>>>> skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
>>>> article.  I
>>>> said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
>>>> does.  The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful
>>>> command.
>>>>
>>>> It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles
>>>> on web
>>>> pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
>>>> say.  My
>>>> concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give
>>>> them
>>>> far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be
>>>> disuaded
>>>> from doing so.  So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for
>>>> and its
>>>> limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on
>>>> that
>>>> allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all
>>>> interruptions to
>>>> the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
>>>> image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.
>>>> I think
>>>> that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the
>>>> Internet in
>>>> a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music
>>>> sites and
>>>> search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the
>>>> other ways
>>>> of web navigation NVDA offers.  I don't object to the add-on but
>>>> there are
>>>> many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
>>>> self-confidence,
>>>> severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they
>>>> can't
>>>> do things they can do.  I'm not sure just how you would present the
>>>> add-on
>>>> but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but
>>>> you are
>>>> extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation
>>>> to use
>>>> search sites.  Even many of the older people you are discussing, I
>>>> suspect,
>>>> would want to know how to do basic searches.
>>>>
>>>> When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
>>>> have any
>>>> idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
>>>> knowledgeable
>>>> user?  Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the
>>>> information is
>>>> better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether
>>>> someone
>>>> is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some
>>>> other
>>>> relevant company or organization, and other information, if
>>>> available that
>>>> may help me assess his reliability.  None of this is heard in the
>>>> current
>>>> way the add-on works.
>>>>
>>>> and there are lots of other kinds of forums.  Some people like to
>>>> hang out
>>>> on political forums.  they might well want to know who is writing so
>>>> they
>>>> can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
>>>> skimming, or
>>>> paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
>>>> there are an enormous number of forums.  As I said, I don't know if the
>>>> add-on can have some sort of forums mode.  I don't have the technical
>>>> knowledge to know.
>>>>
>>>> also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
>>>> reading
>>>> mode.  This is an important feature.  Many people may use the add-on
>>>> to find
>>>> the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
>>>> article because they don't want to issue a command every few
>>>> sentences while
>>>> reading.  If there were an automatic read command, this would allow
>>>> people
>>>> to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the
>>>> add-on
>>>> would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
>>>> interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command.  .
>>>>
>>>> And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed
>>>> pages of a
>>>> newspaper.  A bit of information may be provided about guest
>>>> columnists that
>>>> may be useful to readers.  If someone works at a conservative think
>>>> tank,
>>>> his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal
>>>> one.
>>>> If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.
>>>> That puts
>>>> me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he
>>>> works.
>>>> If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is
>>>> important.
>>>>
>>>> Gene
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>
>>>> From: Tony Malykh
>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
>>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
>>>> Internet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Gene,
>>>> Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
>>>> questions you are raising.
>>>> 1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
>>>> browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
>>>> standard navigation commands.
>>>> 2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
>>>> burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
>>>> can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
>>>> enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
>>>> proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
>>>> you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
>>>> tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
>>>> claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
>>>> clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
>>>> people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
>>>> Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
>>>> to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
>>>> commands are always there.
>>>> 3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
>>>> when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
>>>> 4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
>>>> one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
>>>> article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
>>>> if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
>>>> beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
>>>> 5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
>>>> 6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
>>>> the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
>>>> the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
>>>> find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
>>>> standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
>>>> skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
>>>> this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
>>>> experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
>>>> interested in the name of the author.
>>>> 7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
>>>> like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
>>>> care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
>>>> and I care much less who answered it.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>> Tony
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>>>> I have some comments on your demo for TextNav.  First, it isn't a
>>>>> substitute
>>>>> for learning the layout and structures of web pages.  If you use it
>>>>> before
>>>>> you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than
>>>>> straight
>>>>> reading situations well.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when
>>>>> reading the
>>>>> page you used is not correct.  it is thirteen times more efficient
>>>>> if you
>>>>> don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something
>>>>> like an
>>>>> article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your
>>>>> comparison.
>>>>> You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
>>>>> links
>>>>> command, the letter n.  That gets you much much closer to the article
>>>>> text
>>>>> because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
>>>>> starts.  On some pages, move by heading works better.  On some,
>>>>> move by
>>>>> skip
>>>>> nnavigation works bettter.  on some, move by heading, then using skip
>>>>> navigation links works better.  On some, the find command works
>>>>> better.
>>>>> You
>>>>> may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you
>>>>> experiment.
>>>>> Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
>>>>> way.
>>>>> I want to be clear.  I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
>>>>> useful in
>>>>> skipping to the first sentence of an article.  But you don't hear the
>>>>> author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
>>>>> and,
>>>>> if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
>>>>> exceedingly
>>>>> tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly.  For a
>>>>> somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I
>>>>> would
>>>>> imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or
>>>>> forty or
>>>>> more times.  The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
>>>>> uninterruptedly.
>>>>>
>>>>> And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
>>>>> add-on.  It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
>>>>> information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
>>>>> information
>>>>> that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
>>>>> reliability
>>>>> or what his credentials are.  Also, as you continue to read and
>>>>> even if
>>>>> you
>>>>> know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who
>>>>> it is
>>>>> from.  You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is
>>>>> commenting
>>>>> on
>>>>> comments for the first time or who is making comments after making
>>>>> other
>>>>> comments.  If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
>>>>> environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
>>>>> paragraph
>>>>> and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't
>>>>> know
>>>>> if
>>>>> this can be done.  I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
>>>>> That
>>>>> is
>>>>> f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
>>>>> people
>>>>> call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.
>>>>>
>>>>> In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
>>>>> discourage
>>>>> its
>>>>> further development.  Critics mmay be your best friends in such
>>>>> situations.
>>>>> But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.
>>>>>
>>>>> and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
>>>>> The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
>>>>> reading,
>>>>> I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
>>>>> something when I am reading an article and am not interested in
>>>>> knowing
>>>>> such
>>>>> other information.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gene
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Tony Malykh
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
>>>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>>>> Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
>>>>> Internet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello NVDA users
>>>>>
>>>>> Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
>>>>> browse
>>>>> Internet for the blind!
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
>>>>> couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
>>>>> right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
>>>>> Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
>>>>> https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the link to download TextNav:
>>>>> https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav
>>>>>
>>>>> TextNav on github:
>>>>> https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/
>>>>>
>>>>> TextNav keystrokes:
>>>>> * Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
>>>>> * Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> Tony Malykh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>
>
>
>



Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi Tony


Just been taking the add on for a test drive. I agree with you. When i am reading a website with the news on it basically as you already know locate the heading usually with a link then press the enter key to go into the story.


I would then have to jump down a couple of headings then a list box  jump to the end of it  then use the read to end command. Then it would come up with like email, face book etc which are links then the story might start. The add on as you said makes it a lot quicker to get to the story I want to read and leaves out the other stuff i do not want it to read.


I know there are people on this list who would use text based browsers i think one was called webbie and it would strip out the extra stuff and just have the text that could be read out which there are people who find it easier to do.


when a person is learning they  do not want information overload like memorizing all the quick navigation keys they only learn the main ones like headings, lists or links and how to go into a page and back a page.


The rest of the commands they can learn at a later date and are still present even though they are using the add on.


I could see a few of our older people using the add on to get to the story quicker without jumping to many hoops.


My self i can see using it to.


Gene nz


 



On 4/12/2018 9:10 AM, Tony Malykh wrote:
Gene,
I don't see your comments hostile at all. You provide very reasonable
feedback for me, and I really appreciate that, though I don't quite
agree with some of your points.
1. TextNav is indeed supposed to be the easier way. The question is
whether this is good or bad in from the absolute point of view. I
agree it will reduce motivation for people to learn the proper way.
The good thing is it might allow some other people e.g. older people,
to use Internet. This is the trade off I see. Time will decide if it
is good or bad. But again, remember my example with Microsoft Windows?
Exactly the same argument was made, that Windows will make people lazy
and they will not learn the proper way to interact with computer using
command prompt. And then decades went by, and the right way became the
Windows way. So, sometimes, the definition of what's proper can
change. Not today, today as we agree, TextNav is not good enough to
fully replace traditional browse mode commands. But what I'm trying to
say is giv give a chance to the new tools. Give Windows and automatic
transmissions a chance. Nobody would blame you today that you don't
know how to press clutch.
2. You are trying to say that students first should learn Internet the
hard way, and only then try TextNav. I'm not a teacher, but I don't
understand why we cannot reverse the order. We don't learn calculus
before arithmetics. In general this is how education works, we start
with simple things and over the years learn more complicated things.
Why learning screenreaders must be an exception? When you're saying
that students won't learn the traditional browse mode commands because
TextNav is works for them, I can claim that students won't learn
calculus, because they're good enough with 3rd grade arithmetics. I'm
sorry to point that out, I hope you won't consider this to be a sign
of hostility, and I respect your point of view, but I just can't quite
agree with it.
3. I want to promote my add-on. I want more blind people to be aware
of it and at least try it once. I think it is going to be beneficial
for 90% of blind people. But it is very hard to communicate the
message. Last time I tried explainning to people what it really is and
not many people got it. So this time I decided to try marketing
techniques. I do exagerate things, but only a little bit. You might be
right when you want to call it just a reading add-on, but if I call it
a reading add-on, then only two users will actually try it. By calling
it "the new way of browsing Internet" I hope to attract some more
attention. Am I deceptive? Maybe a little bit, but nowhere near as
much as a typical TV commercial.

Sarah,
Please see my comment to Gene about the order of learning things.
I would still defend my 90/90% statement. The example of Amazon you
gave falls into the 10% that's not covered by TextNav - just because
there are form controls there. If a website has buttons and edit
boxes, obviously you cannot navigate it effectively using TextNav.
But let me give you a list of web sites where textNav would greatly
improve your efficiency:
News websites (hundreds of them), forums (thousands of them), blogs
(tens of thouusands, maybe more? whatever), product pages, Wikipedia
and other smaller wiki sites, online documentation sites.
These are just the major categories. Basically all the web sites where
you don't need to interact with form elements and that have some text
on them.

Sam
TextNav looks for text written in full sentences that are separated by periods.


On 12/3/18, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@...> wrote:
To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be
honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws
back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.

Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my
commands have dropped.

I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but
I honestly don't use that many comands at all.



On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn
all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then
could I learn other ways other easier ways.

Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so.
Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of
gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your
second claim is faulse, or soon might be.

On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
development.

Best
Tony



On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly.  You only tried
the
skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
article.  I
said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
does.  The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful
command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles
on web
pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
say.  My
concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give
them
far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be
disuaded
from doing so.  So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for
and its
limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on
that
allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all
interruptions to
the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.
I think
that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the
Internet in
a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music
sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the
other ways
of web navigation NVDA offers.  I don't object to the add-on but
there are
many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
self-confidence,
severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they
can't
do things they can do.  I'm not sure just how you would present the
add-on
but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but
you are
extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation
to use
search sites.  Even many of the older people you are discussing, I
suspect,
would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
have any
idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
knowledgeable
user?  Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the
information is
better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether
someone
is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some
other
relevant company or organization, and other information, if
available that
may help me assess his reliability.  None of this is heard in the
current
way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums.  Some people like to
hang out
on political forums.  they might well want to know who is writing so
they
can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
skimming, or
paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums.  As I said, I don't know if the
add-on can have some sort of forums mode.  I don't have the technical
knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
reading
mode.  This is an important feature.  Many people may use the add-on
to find
the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
article because they don't want to issue a command every few
sentences while
reading.  If there were an automatic read command, this would allow
people
to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the
add-on
would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command.  .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed
pages of a
newspaper.  A bit of information may be provided about guest
columnists that
may be useful to readers.  If someone works at a conservative think
tank,
his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal
one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.
That puts
me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he
works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is
important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav.  First, it isn't a
substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages.  If you use it
before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than
straight
reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when
reading the
page you used is not correct.  it is thirteen times more efficient
if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something
like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your
comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links
command, the letter n.  That gets you much much closer to the article
text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts.  On some pages, move by heading works better.  On some,
move by
skip
nnavigation works bettter.  on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better.  On some, the find command works
better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you
experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
way.
I want to be clear.  I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article.  But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly.  For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I
would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or
forty or
more times.  The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on.  It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
reliability
or what his credentials are.  Also, as you continue to read and
even if
you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who
it is
from.  You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is
commenting
on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making
other
comments.  If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't
know
if
this can be done.  I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
That
is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage
its
further development.  Critics mmay be your best friends in such
situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in
knowing
such
other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh
















.






--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or location) is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

Tony Malykh
 

Gene,
I don't see your comments hostile at all. You provide very reasonable
feedback for me, and I really appreciate that, though I don't quite
agree with some of your points.
1. TextNav is indeed supposed to be the easier way. The question is
whether this is good or bad in from the absolute point of view. I
agree it will reduce motivation for people to learn the proper way.
The good thing is it might allow some other people e.g. older people,
to use Internet. This is the trade off I see. Time will decide if it
is good or bad. But again, remember my example with Microsoft Windows?
Exactly the same argument was made, that Windows will make people lazy
and they will not learn the proper way to interact with computer using
command prompt. And then decades went by, and the right way became the
Windows way. So, sometimes, the definition of what's proper can
change. Not today, today as we agree, TextNav is not good enough to
fully replace traditional browse mode commands. But what I'm trying to
say is giv give a chance to the new tools. Give Windows and automatic
transmissions a chance. Nobody would blame you today that you don't
know how to press clutch.
2. You are trying to say that students first should learn Internet the
hard way, and only then try TextNav. I'm not a teacher, but I don't
understand why we cannot reverse the order. We don't learn calculus
before arithmetics. In general this is how education works, we start
with simple things and over the years learn more complicated things.
Why learning screenreaders must be an exception? When you're saying
that students won't learn the traditional browse mode commands because
TextNav is works for them, I can claim that students won't learn
calculus, because they're good enough with 3rd grade arithmetics. I'm
sorry to point that out, I hope you won't consider this to be a sign
of hostility, and I respect your point of view, but I just can't quite
agree with it.
3. I want to promote my add-on. I want more blind people to be aware
of it and at least try it once. I think it is going to be beneficial
for 90% of blind people. But it is very hard to communicate the
message. Last time I tried explainning to people what it really is and
not many people got it. So this time I decided to try marketing
techniques. I do exagerate things, but only a little bit. You might be
right when you want to call it just a reading add-on, but if I call it
a reading add-on, then only two users will actually try it. By calling
it "the new way of browsing Internet" I hope to attract some more
attention. Am I deceptive? Maybe a little bit, but nowhere near as
much as a typical TV commercial.

Sarah,
Please see my comment to Gene about the order of learning things.
I would still defend my 90/90% statement. The example of Amazon you
gave falls into the 10% that's not covered by TextNav - just because
there are form controls there. If a website has buttons and edit
boxes, obviously you cannot navigate it effectively using TextNav.
But let me give you a list of web sites where textNav would greatly
improve your efficiency:
News websites (hundreds of them), forums (thousands of them), blogs
(tens of thouusands, maybe more? whatever), product pages, Wikipedia
and other smaller wiki sites, online documentation sites.
These are just the major categories. Basically all the web sites where
you don't need to interact with form elements and that have some text
on them.

Sam
TextNav looks for text written in full sentences that are separated by periods.

On 12/3/18, Shaun Everiss <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:
To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be
honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws
back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.

Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my
commands have dropped.

I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but
I honestly don't use that many comands at all.



On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn
all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then
could I learn other ways other easier ways.

Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so.
Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of
gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your
second claim is faulse, or soon might be.

On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
development.

Best
Tony



On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly. You only tried
the
skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one
article. I
said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
does. The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful
command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles
on web
pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you
say. My
concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give
them
far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be
disuaded
from doing so. So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for
and its
limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on
that
allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all
interruptions to
the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.
I think
that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the
Internet in
a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music
sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the
other ways
of web navigation NVDA offers. I don't object to the add-on but
there are
many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or
self-confidence,
severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they
can't
do things they can do. I'm not sure just how you would present the
add-on
but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but
you are
extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation
to use
search sites. Even many of the older people you are discussing, I
suspect,
would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't
have any
idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more
knowledgeable
user? Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the
information is
better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether
someone
is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some
other
relevant company or organization, and other information, if
available that
may help me assess his reliability. None of this is heard in the
current
way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums. Some people like to
hang out
on political forums. they might well want to know who is writing so
they
can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping,
skimming, or
paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums. As I said, I don't know if the
add-on can have some sort of forums mode. I don't have the technical
knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic
reading
mode. This is an important feature. Many people may use the add-on
to find
the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
article because they don't want to issue a command every few
sentences while
reading. If there were an automatic read command, this would allow
people
to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the
add-on
would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command. .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed
pages of a
newspaper. A bit of information may be provided about guest
columnists that
may be useful to readers. If someone works at a conservative think
tank,
his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal
one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.
That puts
me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he
works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is
important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav. First, it isn't a
substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages. If you use it
before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than
straight
reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when
reading the
page you used is not correct. it is thirteen times more efficient
if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something
like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your
comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of
links
command, the letter n. That gets you much much closer to the article
text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts. On some pages, move by heading works better. On some,
move by
skip
nnavigation works bettter. on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better. On some, the find command works
better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you
experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same
way.
I want to be clear. I am not saying that the add-on isn't very
useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article. But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly. For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I
would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or
forty or
more times. The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on. It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other
information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
reliability
or what his credentials are. Also, as you continue to read and
even if
you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who
it is
from. You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is
commenting
on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making
other
comments. If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't
know
if
this can be done. I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.
That
is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some
people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to
discourage
its
further development. Critics mmay be your best friends in such
situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in
knowing
such
other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to
browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh













.



Collaborative document editing with NVDA

Sile
 

Hello


Has anyone found a platform (e.g. google docs, Microsoft word, or whatever) that works with NVDA and supports collaborative editing in a robust way?


Yours,


--Sile


Re: good program to convert apple music to MP3 with NVDA

Sarah k Alawami
 

I dunno if they have this for windows but try noteburner or tunes kit. That works well for removing dRM and stuff. With tunes kit it takes a bit longer but man oh man is it worth it for when you are out on the road and want to play your music on anything other than your phone or computer etc.

Good luck. I won't give instruction on how to use it as this is not the list for it, you are on your own. We dont' even discuss that on my windows list. I suggest the software but it is up to you to learn how to use it in this case.

Take care

On 3 Dec 2018, at 10:35, Tyler Wood wrote:

Apple music is proprietary and I'm quite sure that converting it to mp3 has several legal ramifications. SO I'm sure most of these methods are questionable at best. Unless you're talking about the actual .m4A format, which just about anything out there (Gold Wave, foobar) would convert happily.



On 2018-12-03 12:09 p.m., Armando Maldonado wrote:

Hello, I know on a mac, I can convert apple music to mp3. Is there a good program that will enable me to convert Apple Music to Mp3 similar to what one can purchase for the mac? Thanks.
Armando


Re: good program to convert apple music to MP3 with NVDA

Armando Maldonado
 

I will try your suggestions, thanks.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 3, 2018 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] good program to convert apple music to MP3 with NVDA


You can convert it to mp3 with itunes track by track on pc.

But unless you are moving it to a non apple device you can play m4v and m4a files on winamp and if you can't codecguide.com is good for you.

If you are needing to move it to a smartphone, then that may be the reason to do it, though a lot of those especially samsung ones will support the apple standard.

If you plan to doodle with the files, edit them, etc then maybe but there is probably no need to even bother, I have a lot of m4a files here, and winamp will run them fine.

So will windows media player and vlc.

You do need to load the klite mega codec pack for those to work properly but if all you are doing is playing them you probably don't need to bother.



On 12/4/2018 7:09 AM, Armando Maldonado wrote:
Hello, I know on a mac, I can convert apple music to mp3. Is there a good program that will enable me to convert Apple Music to Mp3 similar to what one can purchase for the mac? Thanks.
Armando



Re: good program to convert apple music to MP3 with NVDA

 

Well you can convert anything to mp3 once you have brought it if its allowed ofcourse.

As for legal, I doubt it matters unless you plan to sell it or something.

At any rate every hacker and pirate knows that the apple m4a standard is just aac.

On 12/4/2018 7:35 AM, Tyler Wood wrote:
Apple music is proprietary and I'm quite sure that converting it to mp3 has several legal ramifications. SO I'm sure most of these methods are questionable at best. Unless you're talking about the actual .m4A format, which just about anything out there (Gold Wave, foobar) would convert happily.



On 2018-12-03 12:09 p.m., Armando Maldonado wrote:

Hello, I know on a mac, I can convert apple music to mp3. Is there a good program that will enable me to convert Apple Music to Mp3 similar to what one can purchase for the mac? Thanks.
Armando


Re: good program to convert apple music to MP3 with NVDA

 

You can convert it to mp3 with itunes track by track on pc.

But unless you are moving it to a non apple device you can play m4v and m4a files on winamp and if you can't codecguide.com is good for you.

If you are needing to move it to a smartphone, then that may be the reason to do it, though a lot of those especially samsung ones will support the apple standard.

If you plan to doodle with the files, edit them, etc then maybe but there is probably no need to even bother, I have a lot of m4a files here, and winamp will run them fine.

So will windows media player and vlc.

You do need to load the klite mega codec pack for those to work properly but if all you are doing is playing them you probably don't need to bother.

On 12/4/2018 7:09 AM, Armando Maldonado wrote:
Hello, I know on a mac, I can convert apple music to mp3. Is there a good program that will enable me to convert Apple Music to Mp3 similar to what one can purchase for the mac? Thanks.
Armando



Re: Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse Internet

 

To be honest I won't be getting this, I know how to brouse, to be honest, even though I was given extensive training for windows and jaws back in the day, I have a subset of commands I use.

Since I have pulled out of uni and don't have a mainstream job my commands have dropped.

I need enough to navigate the web, thunderbird, and a few other apps but I honestly don't use that many comands at all.

On 12/4/2018 6:53 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I agree with jean. I push my students as well as I was pushed to learn all of the browse commands and I was a beginner. Then and only then could I learn other ways other easier ways.

Second, 90 percent out of 90 percent of websites? I don't think so. Many websites are getting harder to use and more cluttered and full of gunk that the sighted like and the blind hate. Amazon anyone? So. your second claim is faulse, or soon might be.

On 3 Dec 2018, at 9:22, Tony Malykh wrote:

Gene,
It seems to me all your comments imply that I want to replace browse
mode keystrokes with TextNav. I emphasize, that TextNav does not
replace them, but it should be used in addition to them. I agree some
webdsites can be navigated very well with browse mode commands. I
agree that power users should learn all the browse mode commands. But:
1. TextNav is great for new websites. Even for power users, you can
quickly find out the right content without in-depth study of the
layout of this website.
2. TextNav is great for newbies. Instead of pushing students to learn
twenty five browse mode commands, just show them a single TextNav
keystroke, that can let you browse 90% of content on 90% of web sites.
And then, if they feel like learning more powerful techniques, they
can always learn all 25 of browse mode commands. I still remember
myself trying to learn all these browse mode command like five years
ago when I started to learn screenreadres, and it made me very
frustrated - so much stuff to learn. Why don't teach students a single
command on the first day to give them a teste of Internet, and then
move on to more powerful commands?
3. Older people that I know don't use Internet, because "it's too
complicated". I only try to solve this problem.
4. Again, I emphasize, that if you want to figure out the name of the
user on the forum, or the author of an article, you can always jus go
back to traditional browse mode commands. Again, TextNav is not a
replacement and doesn't strive to be one. However, in my daily
routine, 90% of the time I don't care about the author. I suspect many
NVDA users are like me, but I might be wrong here.
5. Automatic reading mode is stil available as NVDA keystroke. It
wouldn't skip over ads though. I might think of having automatic
reading mode with TextNav, but that's a suggestion for the future
development.

Best
Tony



On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I'll discuss some points:
First, something that I can comment on very briefly.  You only tried the
skip blocks of links command on one site and, evidently, on one article.  I
said that on some sites, one method works better and on others, another
does.  The skip blocks of links command is an important and useful command.

It may be that some people want a very simple way to read articles on web
pages and might have problems with using more complex ways, as you say.  My
concern is that many people who can learn other ways that would give them
far more versatility and who wouldn't have trouble doing so may be disuaded
from doing so.  So perhaps you should discuss just what this is for and its
limitations when you promote or describe it. It is a reading add-on that
allows you to skip to the start of an article and skip all interruptions to
the article such as groups of links to related material, advertisements
image descriptions, and perhaps other things I haven't thought of.  I think
that making this clear and saying that those who want to use the Internet in
a wide variety of ways not involving mainly reading, such as music sites and
search sites, still need to learn and become profficient in the other ways
of web navigation NVDA offers.  I don't object to the add-on but there are
many blind people who, because of a lack of knowledge or self-confidence,
severely limit themselves because they don't realize or believe they can't
do things they can do.  I'm not sure just how you would present the add-on
but for a lot of people this would be an important convenience but you are
extremely limited if you don't know enough about web page navigation to use
search sites.  Even many of the older people you are discussing, I suspect,
would want to know how to do basic searches.

When I read a forum, I want to find a solution but what if I don't have any
idea which might be more likely to work or come from a more knowledgeable
user?  Being more knowledgeable doesn't necessarily mean the information is
better but I consider it to be information to be aware of, whether someone
is a high ranking member of a list, an employee of Microsoft or some other
relevant company or organization, and other information, if available that
may help me assess his reliability.  None of this is heard in the current
way the add-on works.

and there are lots of other kinds of forums.  Some people like to hang out
on political forums.  they might well want to know who is writing so they
can see if the person is worth reading and either skipping, skimming, or
paying close attention to posts of certain authors.
there are an enormous number of forums.  As I said, I don't know if the
add-on can have some sort of forums mode.  I don't have the technical
knowledge to know.

also, you didn't respond to what I said about having an automatic reading
mode.  This is an important feature.  Many people may use the add-on to find
the beginning of an article but may not continue to use it to read the
article because they don't want to issue a command every few sentences while
reading.  If there were an automatic read command, this would allow people
to read as they would when using the speak to end command. But the add-on
would skip any extraneous material and read the entire article without
interruption or the need to repeatedly issue the read command.  .

And while this isn't a forum, consider something like the op-ed pages of a
newspaper.  A bit of information may be provided about guest columnists that
may be useful to readers.  If someone works at a conservative think tank,
his views may be very different than someone who works for a liberal one.
If the person works for a specific company, I want to know that.  That puts
me on guard that his views may be defending the company for which he works.
If such information is routinely stripped by the add-on, that is important.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 10:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hi Gene,
Thank you for your feedback, I think these are very reasonable
questions you are raising.
1. I didn't claim that TextNav should replace the traditional way of
browsing internet. It should rather augment it, be an addition to the
standard navigation commands.
2. I see a lot of older blind people, for whom using computer is a
burden. You can claim they should still learn the proper way. Or you
can let them use the simpler way and let them enjoy what they can
enjoy with TextNav. Some of them might never be able to learn the
proper way - when you're 80 your brain doesn't work as well as when
you're 20. It is a question of simpler tools versus more powerful
tools. When cars with automatic transmission just appeared people were
claiming they are bad because the drivers will never learn to use the
clutch. Or when Windows appeared, some were claiming that it makes
people stupid, because they never learn the command-line way of unix.
Think of TextNav as a car with automatic transmission. And if you want
to learn more powerful ways to navigate web pages, NVDA browse mode
commands are always there.
3. I agree I might have slightly exaggerated about 13x speedup. But
when I use TextNav myself, I can browse the web many times faster.
4. I never knew of the N command in browse mode. I just tried it on
one web page and it seems to skip over the first paragraph of the
article. So you would have to press it a few times, try to figure out
if you are inside the article, and then go back up until you find the
beginning. All that compared to a single keystroke of TextNav.
5. Crackling sound can be turned off or made quieter in the settings.
6. Often times I just want to read the article. I don't want to read
the name of the author, date of publication, read the description of
the image. Sometimes the article is interesting, and I might want to
find the name of the author. Again, I can always do it with the
standard browse mode command. But Most of the times I don't care. By
skipping over these fields, you save a few seconds every time, but
this accumulates over the day into a much more efficient browsing
experience. Time will show how many NVDA users are like me not
interested in the name of the author.
7. Same thing on the forum. I come to forums to solve my problems,
like in my example, the problem with bluetooth headphones. I don't
care whatsoever what's the nickname of the guy who asked the question,
and I care much less who answered it.

Best regards
Tony


On 12/2/18, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I have some comments on your demo for TextNav.  First, it isn't a
substitute
for learning the layout and structures of web pages.  If you use it
before
you know these things, you may not learn to deal with other than straight
reading situations well.

Your claim that TextNav is thirteen times more efficient when reading the
page you used is not correct.  it is thirteen times more efficient if you
don't know how to work with internet pages for reading something like an
article well, but you used a very inefficient method for your comparison.
You didn't start at the top of the page and use the skip blocks of links
command, the letter n.  That gets you much much closer to the article
text
because it skips most of the material on this page before the article
starts.  On some pages, move by heading works better.  On some, move by
skip
nnavigation works bettter.  on some, move by heading, then using skip
navigation links works better.  On some, the find command works better.
You
may not find an efficient way to work with a page until you experiment.
Once you do, you can use other article pages on that site the same way.
I want to be clear.  I am not saying that the add-on isn't very useful in
skipping to the first sentence of an article.  But you don't hear the
author, you may not hear introductory material you might want to hear,
and,
if the article is more than two or three paragraphs, it would be
exceedingly
tedious to issue the move to next paragraph command repeatedly.  For a
somewhat long news article or a somewhat long magazine article, I would
imagine you might have to issue the command twenty or thirty or forty or
more times.  The add-on needs an automated mode for straight reading
uninterruptedly.

And finally, your forum example demonstrates a real deficiency in the
add-on.  It starts reading the text of the first post and skips all
information about who wrote it or how old it is or any other information
that might be of interest such as what rating the person has for
reliability
or what his credentials are.  Also, as you continue to read and even if
you
know when a second post is beginning to be read, you don't know who it is
from.  You can't be sure all the time, I would think, who is commenting
on
comments for the first time or who is making comments after making other
comments.  If the add-on is going to really be useful in such an
environment, it needs to do more than just skip through entries by
paragraph
and not give you any information such as what I described. I don't know
if
this can be done.  I don't know if a forums mode can be developed.  That
is
f o r u m, as discussion forum, not to be confused with what some people
call forms mode in some browsers for filling out forms.

In short, the add-on has potential and I am not attempting to discourage
its
further development.  Critics mmay be your best friends in such
situations.
But I think the add-on needs more work and refinement.

and one last thing I forgot to mention earlier:
The crackling sound should be able to be turned on and off. If I'm
reading,
I don't necessarily want to hear extraneous sounds that notify me of
something when I am reading an article and am not interested in knowing
such
other information.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Tony Malykh
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2018 6:25 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Introducing TextNav add-on - a better way to browse
Internet


Hello NVDA users

Today I am introducing TextNav add-on for NVDA - a better way to browse
Internet for the blind!

Have you ever felt that browsing new pages is frustrating when you
couldn't find the content on the page? Try TextNav - it will find the
right content for you in a single keystroke! TextNav is easy to use.
Listen to a quick demo (7minutes long audio):
https://soundcloud.com/user-977282820/textnav-promo

Here is the link to download TextNav:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/files/get.php?file=textnav

TextNav on github:
https://github.com/mltony/nvda-text-nav/

TextNav keystrokes:
* Alt+Shift+Down: Find next paragraph with text.
* Alt+Shift+Up: Find previous paragraph with text.

I hope you enjoy it! Any suggestions are welcome!

Sincerely,
Tony Malykh












.