Re: Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?
Gene
Having an experience that is more like a sighted
person's experience may or may not be useful,
depending on context. The entire reason the virtual cursor, or browse
mode, was developed for blind users is because using the mouse in the context of
a web page and the screen layout of a typical web page is less efficient.
Nothing can replace the efficiency of using commands such as the skip blocks of
links commands, the move by headings command and the find command. Nothing
can replace the ease of moving as though a cursor is being used.
There may be contexts where moving with the mouse
provides access to more information or to more meaningful information. But
using a web page to discuss possible uses is a bad example in most cases.
As to whether to teach this feature, there may not
be a general rule. Many users may never need or benefit from it.
Then again, people who use a computer differently or for different purposes
may.
Someone wanting to use a computer for browsing,
e-mail, editing documents, and other common purposes might not benefit at
all. Accessibility is usually very good for such tasks in much more
efficient ways. Someone using a computer to work with programs and screens
that are not ordinarily well available, might benefit significantly.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Le Baudour
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 11:23 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do
you like it? I only use it when I have to, with some websites and programs accessible only with the mouse. I find it difficult not to be lost and finding a specific item on a big screen, ( I assume it's much easier on a smartphone where you know where you are and usually have a tidier screen content). -- Patrick Le 09/03/2016 16:15, Brian Vogel a écrit : > The subject pretty much says it all. One of the most interesting > features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse tracking, > which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in conjunction with > the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the actual left and right > click buttons on a mouse or mousepad). > > By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that strikes > me as far more like what someone who can see gets when they're scanning > a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that interests them. Of > course, it takes some getting used to, and you'll probably have to do > some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed and distance of movement, > coasting, and others) to get mouse movement that's comfortable for you. > > I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around the > screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what your > experience was like learning how to use this feature and these methods. > I realize that there are certain applications and contexts where this > would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and opinions on where > it's worth using and not would be interesting. > > My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature > set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to > teach up front or not. There's nothing like asking those who do use it, > or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative to help > shape my thoughts on this. > > Brian > >
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Re: Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?
Mallard
Oh, I agree.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Thing is, though, that I used to work as a translator long before screen readers and speech synths, with an Optacon on screen, so I supposethat makes it easier for me now to work with a physical mouse. Ciao, Ollie
Il 09/03/2016 18:32, Brian Vogel ha scritto:
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Re: Firefox is driving me crazy!
Mallard
Gene,
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Gosh! I wrote very clearly that I usethe latest Next with Firefox 45.0, with BOTH a braille display and speech. I have NO OTHER screen reader, except for older versions of NVDA, which produce EXACTLY the same result. ON ALL WEB PAGES.
Il 09/03/2016 19:14, Gene ha scritto:
The problem appears to be some sort of mismatch between, evidently, the browse cursor and the link being clicked on. We don't know what is being used as the Braille display. We don't know if the person has or can test this with speech. We don't know if the person has or can test this problem with another screen-reader. There are many basic facts we need to know before proposing that time and effort be spent in trying various possible solutions.
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Re: Firefox is driving me crazy!
Gene
The problem appears to be some sort of
mismatch between, evidently, the browse cursor and the link being clicked
on. We don't know what is being used as the Braille display. We
don't know if the person has or can test this with speech. We don't know
if the person has or can test this problem with another screen-reader.
There are many basic facts we need to know before proposing that time and effort
be spent in trying various possible solutions.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 10:14 AM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Re: Firefox is driving me crazy! Ollie, This is a pure SWAG on my part, but I've encountered so many bizarre problems caused by cache corruption that the first thing I'd recommend is that you clear all browser cache in Firefox. If you use CCleaner it will work (and a bit faster) or you can follow the instructions on the Firefox Clear Cache page. Try that and see if it resolves the problem. If it doesn't at least we can eliminate cache corruption as the root cause. Brian
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Re: Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?
Rosemarie Chavarria
Hi, Brian,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I think I see what you mean. One time I was trying to click on something and for some strange reason NVDA didn't see it. Just out of curiosity I thought I'd try using the mouse. I found what I wanted and hit the left mouse button and it worked. Most of the time I just use keyboard shortcuts. Yes, it is hard to use the mouse when you can't see the screen but you brought up some great points. Rosemarie
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 9:33 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: [nvda] Re: Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it? Rosemarie, Believe me, I know that using the mouse without being able to see it is hard. It is, however, within screen readers that support it a very easy way to give a quick listen to what's on the screen that you might never see if you're doing things like listing all links and traversing the list or all headers and traversing that list, etc. I've also found it interesting that on most sites there are hidden links specifically for those using accessibility software that the rest of the world never sees. I'm not so much interested (though I am interested, don't get me wrong) in whether someone uses the mouse as a pointing and activating device so much as whether they use it to get a sense of what might be on a screen just by running it around. It's also nice that at least some laptops allow you to configure the mouse such that it will not go outside the physical screen boundary. That's under the "Momentum" settings for my Synaptics touch pad under "Enable bounce off screen edge". While that would drive me crazy, as I often want the mouse to disappear, it would be incredibly useful for someone doing screen review via mouse movement. This may be possible with certain mice on desktop machines, too, but I've never had one with that configuration option in that hardware environment. It was also interesting for me to see what I consider the weird difference in accessibility in PDF-XChange Viewer when using the conventional menu keyboard shortcuts and arrow key traversal, which gives you no feedback at all, but when you hover over the same menus with the mouse and draw the mouse pointer down the menu, each and every thing, including the menu title, is announced (this is all with NVDA 2016.1). Why that would be is a mystery, since if there were nothing that NVDA could access somehow for announcing things then there should be no accessibility feedback in either method. Brian
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Re: Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 09:23 am, Patrick Le Baudour <p.lebaudour@...> wrote:
I find it difficult not to be lost and finding a specific item on a big screen Patrick, just curious, but do you have the window for the program in question maximized such that it covers the entire physical screen? That can at least make things a bit easier since you're not "falling off the edge" of your program with the exception of hitting the taskbar or system tray if you keep those visible at all times. Brian
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Re: Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?
Rosemarie, Believe me, I know that using the mouse without being able to see it is hard. It is, however, within screen readers that support it a very easy way to give a quick listen to what's on the screen that you might never see if you're doing things like listing all links and traversing the list or all headers and traversing that list, etc. I've also found it interesting that on most sites there are hidden links specifically for those using accessibility software that the rest of the world never sees. I'm not so much interested (though I am interested, don't get me wrong) in whether someone uses the mouse as a pointing and activating device so much as whether they use it to get a sense of what might be on a screen just by running it around. It's also nice that at least some laptops allow you to configure the mouse such that it will not go outside the physical screen boundary. That's under the "Momentum" settings for my Synaptics touch pad under "Enable bounce off screen edge". While that would drive me crazy, as I often want the mouse to disappear, it would be incredibly useful for someone doing screen review via mouse movement. This may be possible with certain mice on desktop machines, too, but I've never had one with that configuration option in that hardware environment. It was also interesting for me to see what I consider the weird difference in accessibility in PDF-XChange Viewer when using the conventional menu keyboard shortcuts and arrow key traversal, which gives you no feedback at all, but when you hover over the same menus with the mouse and draw the mouse pointer down the menu, each and every thing, including the menu title, is announced (this is all with NVDA 2016.1). Why that would be is a mystery, since if there were nothing that NVDA could access somehow for announcing things then there should be no accessibility feedback in either method. Brian
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Re: Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?
Patrick Le Baudour
Hi,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I only use it when I have to, with some websites and programs accessible only with the mouse. I find it difficult not to be lost and finding a specific item on a big screen, ( I assume it's much easier on a smartphone where you know where you are and usually have a tidier screen content). -- Patrick
Le 09/03/2016 16:15, Brian Vogel a écrit :
The subject pretty much says it all. One of the most interesting
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Re: Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?
Rosemarie Chavarria
Hi, Brian,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I tried using the physical mouse but it was kind of hard. I know how to do mouse equivilents like clicking using the keyboard. That's easier for me than trying to use a mouse. Rosemarie
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 7:16 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: [nvda] Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it? The subject pretty much says it all. One of the most interesting features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse tracking, which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in conjunction with the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the actual left and right click buttons on a mouse or mousepad). By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that strikes me as far more like what someone who can see gets when they're scanning a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that interests them. Of course, it takes some getting used to, and you'll probably have to do some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed and distance of movement, coasting, and others) to get mouse movement that's comfortable for you. I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around the screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what your experience was like learning how to use this feature and these methods. I realize that there are certain applications and contexts where this would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and opinions on where it's worth using and not would be interesting. My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to teach up front or not. There's nothing like asking those who do use it, or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative to help shape my thoughts on this. Brian
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Re: Firefox is driving me crazy!
Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I've recently noticed firefox occasionally starting
with no padge, even if its set to have one
Its address fiield is blank and it just sits
there waiting. This also occurs if you update nvda, ie its the default browser
for an update of a portable version.
It usually works the second time but of course you
need to regenerate the new update for nvda to try it.
It seemed to start about mid way in the life of
ff44, and has been there ever since. it does work sometimes. To me this is also
alied to the occasional page not found or not available with 5 or4 hundred
codes
I was wondering if the newer ublock might be part
of the issue, but have not figured out how to test this.
Brian
bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal email to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field.
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Re: Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?
Aravind R
one add on called golden cursor helps us to navigate mouse using
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
keyboard by typing pixal positions. but, we have to experiment the various pixal coordinate positions and learn
On 3/9/16, Mallard <mallard@kimabe.eu> wrote:
Hello Brian, --
nothing is difficult unless you make it appear so. r. aravind, Assistant manager Department of sales bank of baroda retail loan factory, Chennai. mobile no: +91 9940369593, 9710945613. email id : aravind_069@yahoo.com, aravind.andhrabank@gmail.com.
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Re: Firefox is driving me crazy!
Patrick Le Baudour
Hello,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
One thing to be careful of is to make sure nvda only has a link in focus - I usually use k and shift-k to do that. When there is, for example, a bullet then a link, then it may open something altogether. I've been had by that several times those last weeks. -- Patrick
Le 09/03/2016 17:01, Mallard a écrit :
Hello list,
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Re: Firefox is driving me crazy!
Ollie, This is a pure SWAG on my part, but I've encountered so many bizarre problems caused by cache corruption that the first thing I'd recommend is that you clear all browser cache in Firefox. If you use CCleaner it will work (and a bit faster) or you can follow the instructions on the Firefox Clear Cache page. Try that and see if it resolves the problem. If it doesn't at least we can eliminate cache corruption as the root cause. Brian
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Re: OCRing pdfs using NVDA?
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 07:44 am, Mallard <mallard@...> wrote:
It simply didn't occur my mind to try and press NVDA+F2 before the key combination... But, Ollie, what I'm wondering is why you would even need to do that? I don't, so we've either got different versions of NVDA (I'm on 2016.1) that behave differently or you're using add-ons that I'm not that are having an impact, etc. It's just a curiosity to me regarding what's actually capturing CTRL+SHIFT+C on your end ahead of PDF-XChange Viewer. It doesn't seem to be NVDA 2016.1 with the Eloquence Synthesizer and NoBeepsSpeechMode add-ons active on my end. These little mysteries are like fun puzzles (at least sometimes they are). Brian
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Firefox is driving me crazy!
Mallard
Hello list,
For a week or so now, Firefox is driving me crazy. When I click on a link on a webpage, for some reason I end up clicking on something different from the one I had under my fingers on my braille display or that is read by the synth. Today I even upgraded to Firefox 45.0 to see whether the problem could be solved, but no... Still the same. I'm using the latest Next snapshot of NVDA, but the same thing happens with an older version of NVDA (2015.2), so I think it might be something in Firefox. Has anyone experienced someghing similar? Ciao, Ollie
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Re: OCRing pdfs using NVDA?
Mallard
Brian,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
The issue with Ctrl+Shift+C was simply my fault, as I mentioned previously. It simply didn't occur my mind to try and press NVDA+F2 before the key combination... Now it works fine here too. The document I processed took several hours indeed, but I went off cooking and things, so I didn't mind... I'm going to study teh programme a bit more in depth, to see if there are workarounds to help others make good use of it, at least as much as possible. If the devs are willing to install NVDA (given that it's free), we might be able to make them understand what is not working in menu viewing... But I'm probably just too optimistic - I'm spoilt by so many great devs on the Android eyes-free list... (smile). Ciao, Ollie
Il 09/03/2016 15:30, Brian Vogel ha scritto:
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Re: Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?
Mallard
Hello Brian,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I use a mouse from time to time. I have been using an Optacon since 1977 (I still use it daily, especially for multilanguage book reading), so using a physical mouse isn't all that complicated for me. Being used to exploring physical, printed pages, certainly represents a significant advantage in mouse use. My main difficulty is dealing with the boundaries of the mouse pad... Ciao, Ollie
Il 09/03/2016 16:15, Brian Vogel ha scritto:
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Re: Espeak is not workin still workin in NVDA version next
Hi,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Yes, this confirms a hypothesis set forth by some: settings issue. Please send your nvda.ini file (from your user configuration directory) to me at joseph.lee22590@gmail.com and I'll send you the corrected version. Cheers,Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: Ângelo Abrantes [mailto:ampa4374@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 7:12 AM To: nvda@groups.io Subject: [nvda] Espeak is not workin still workin in NVDA version next He, I don't nnow what's happening with portuguese "next" NVDA versions and espeak. Here you have the nvda.log extract, where the error apears. "Speaking [LangChangeCommand (u'pt_PT'), u'eSpeak NG'] IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (15:01:24): Input: kb(desktop):enter INFO - synthDrivers.espeak.SynthDriver.__init__ (15:01:24): Using eSpeak version 1.48.15 16.Apr.15 WARNING - synthDriverHandler.SynthDriver.loadSettings (15:01:24): Invalid voice: pt-pt ERROR - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (15:01:24): setSynth Traceback (most recent call last): File "synthDriverHandler.pyc", line 88, in setSynth File "synthDriverHandler.pyc", line 499, in loadSettings File "synthDriverHandler.pyc", line 29, in changeVoice File "synthDrivers\espeak.pyc", line 219, in _set_voice File "synthDriverHandler.pyc", line 366, in _get_language KeyError: u'pt-pt' WARNING - stdout (15:01:24): OrderedDict([('262144', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at 0x05930AF0>), ('65537', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at 0x05930B50>), ('65536', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at 0x05930BB0>), ('131073', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at 0x05930C10>), ('131072', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at 0x05930C70>), ('589824', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at 0x05930CD0>), ('196608', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at 0x05930D30>), ('196609', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at". Thanks Ângelo Abrantes
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Mouse Navigation with NVDA - Do you use it? Do you like it?
The subject pretty much says it all. One of the most interesting features of NVDA from this sighted guy's perspective is mouse tracking, which announces what's under the mouse pointer, used in conjunction with the NVDA left and right click keystrokes (or the actual left and right click buttons on a mouse or mousepad). By moving the mouse around the screen you get an experience that strikes me as far more like what someone who can see gets when they're scanning a webpage quickly to see if there's anything that interests them. Of course, it takes some getting used to, and you'll probably have to do some adjustments on mouse behavior (speed and distance of movement, coasting, and others) to get mouse movement that's comfortable for you. I'm just curious as to who may be using this method to cruise around the screen, and for any program, not just web browsers, and what your experience was like learning how to use this feature and these methods. I realize that there are certain applications and contexts where this would be way more trouble than it's worth, too, and opinions on where it's worth using and not would be interesting. My gut tells me that it will be a small cadre that uses this feature set, but I'm trying to decide whether it's something worth trying to teach up front or not. There's nothing like asking those who do use it, or have tried to use it, as a functional navigation alternative to help shape my thoughts on this. Brian
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Espeak is not workin still workin in NVDA version next
Ângelo Abrantes
He,
I don't nnow what's happening with portuguese "next" NVDA versions and espeak. Here you have the nvda.log extract, where the error apears. "Speaking [LangChangeCommand (u'pt_PT'), u'eSpeak NG'] IO - inputCore.InputManager.executeGesture (15:01:24): Input: kb(desktop):enter INFO - synthDrivers.espeak.SynthDriver.__init__ (15:01:24): Using eSpeak version 1.48.15 16.Apr.15 WARNING - synthDriverHandler.SynthDriver.loadSettings (15:01:24): Invalid voice: pt-pt ERROR - synthDriverHandler.setSynth (15:01:24): setSynth Traceback (most recent call last): File "synthDriverHandler.pyc", line 88, in setSynth File "synthDriverHandler.pyc", line 499, in loadSettings File "synthDriverHandler.pyc", line 29, in changeVoice File "synthDrivers\espeak.pyc", line 219, in _set_voice File "synthDriverHandler.pyc", line 366, in _get_language KeyError: u'pt-pt' WARNING - stdout (15:01:24): OrderedDict([('262144', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at 0x05930AF0>), ('65537', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at 0x05930B50>), ('65536', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at 0x05930BB0>), ('131073', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at 0x05930C10>), ('131072', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at 0x05930C70>), ('589824', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at 0x05930CD0>), ('196608', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at 0x05930D30>), ('196609', <synthDriverHandler.VoiceInfo object at". Thanks Ângelo Abrantes
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