Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.

Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.

Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.

I wish I had the means to donate. I always feel so guilty. The developers of Nvda are truly lovely people. They’ve changed millions of lives with Nvda. That’s something to be proud of.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2018 10:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws?



Hi



as mentioned the price how ever the project does ask for donations if you can to keep this worthy project going.



You are also not limited to the amount of copies you have on a home network or even bigger like what has just been installed to the Christchurch city library network they just installed 390 copies to there public terminals for the public to use.

It will not time out after 30 or 40 minutes then you have to reboot the computer.



the default voice for a windows 10 machine now is windows one core voices but below that is E speak voices. You can also buy synth packages for nvda or use free ones.



The FAQ link that has been provided by a couple of users will give you a run down of some of the differences between jaws and nvda.



You do not have to buy upgrades and again if people can they can donate to the project no matter how small it is it all counts.

They update or do a release 4 times a year so the fixes are pretty quick to be fixed.



The best thing to do is take it for a test drive.







Gene nz



On 23/12/2018 2:50 PM, Maria Reyes wrote:

How different is NVDA than Jaws? what are some differences?

Maria

blindteky@... <mailto:blindteky@...>

Want to talk all about blind technology?

Join the tech4theblind group: tech4theblind+subscribe@groups.io <mailto:tech4theblind+subscribe@groups.io>

Have an Apple product? Join the Apple411 group to discuss the iPhone, iPad, and Mac. From experienced to new users.

Apple411+subscribe@groups.io <mailto:Apple411+subscribe@groups.io>

On Dec 22, 2018, at 2:48 PM, Rui Fontes <rui.fontes@...> wrote:

Rui

No indeed, and it has mostly been the case with windows over the years, as it always has used what it calls virtual memory, ie hard disc space.
I only use hard drives for backups and storage of non time critical stuff. anything you want now has to be on ssd.

Indeed there is one very fast old computer with a normal drive here, anan ancient dell laptop on xp. It has however got a small drive and hence not a lot of stuff on it.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tyler Wood" <tcwood12@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2018 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm using my keyboard

What world is that in? lol. Unless you're referring to the surface pro 6, then it is about on parr with other laptops with solid state storage.


I mean, unless you want to go with a 1 tb spinning hard drive and in 2018, that's a hard sell.


I was using a computer recently that had a core i7-7820HQ (that's a quad core processor with 8 threads). It had a mechanical 1 terabyte hard drive, and it was made last year.


Browsing the web was so much slower than on a machine with a solid state drive. It shouldn't be - after all the web browser was already loaded - but it was truly painful. Restarting was just about as painful, to. Even comparing this to a cheap windows device with a solid state drive - even EMMC storage - and I truthfully can't recommend a mechanical hard drive these days. And I'm not even getting into general performance. Moving around the screen was painfully slow. Opening apps took far longer than a machine with a hard drive, even 4 or 5 years ago, used to. I'm not sure if it was the screen reader making performance that much worse, but it was similar to using a computer, back in the day, that had 256 mb of ram and ran windows xp. Browsing the web, while doable, was probably my biggest issue.


So, yes, while the surface go is relatively expensive when you increase the storage space, it comes with the benefit of having a solid state drive. In todays day and age, we think windows 10 is very light on resources. It most assuredly is not.

On 2018-12-22 4:29 p.m., Shaun Everiss wrote:

Yeah and I was seriously going to buy one at one point.

Not anymore, they cost more than standard laptops to get one with a lot of space.



On 12/23/2018 10:33 AM, molly the blind tech lover wrote:

It sucks that these surface devices have these issues.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2018 3:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm using my
keyboard

Oh there will be...

1. Press and hold the power button until the screen turns off (about 10
seconds), then release the power button.
2. Press and release the power button to turn your Surface back on. You
should see the Microsoft logo.
If that doesn't work, use this shutdown process to make sure your Surface
completely turns off. Here's how:
Press and hold down the power button until your Surface restarts and you see
the Windows logo screen (this takes about 20 seconds), then release the
power button.
Surface Book, Surface Pro 4, Surface Pro 3, Surface Pro 2, and Surface Pro
1. Press and hold the power button for a full 10 seconds, until the screen
turns off, then release the power button.
Note
On some Surface models, the screen may immediately turn off when pressing
the power button. If this happens, continue to hold for the full 10 seconds
and then release.
2. Press and release the power button to turn your Surface back on. You
should see the Surface logo.
If that doesn't work, use this two-button shutdown process to make sure your
Surface completely turns off. Here's how:
1. Press and hold the power button on your Surface for 30 seconds and then
release it.
2.
Press and hold the volume-up button and the power button at the same time
for at least 15 seconds and then release both.
The screen may flash the Surface logo, but continue holding the buttons down
for at least 15 seconds.
3. After you release the buttons, wait 10 seconds.
4. Press and release the power button to turn your Surface back on. You
should see the Surface logo.
Surface 3, Surface 2, and Surface RT
1. Press and hold the power button for a full 10 seconds, until the screen
turns off, then release the power button.
Note
On some Surface models, the screen may immediately turn off when pressing
the power button. If this happens, continue to hold for the full 10 seconds
and then release.
2. Press and release the power button to turn your Surface back on. You
should see the Surface logo.
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "molly the blind tech lover" <brainardmolly@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2018 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm using my
keyboard


There is no way to manually force this Microsoft surface tablet to shut
down. I guess I'll have to go to the Microsoft store. Maybe they can fix it.


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tyler Spivey
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 7:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm using my
keyboard

Don't be too discouraged, breaking things is quite normal.

If this is a tablet with a separate keyboard, maybe Bluetooth was turned
off, the batteries died or the keyboard was turned off. Tab should at least
do something, or pressing any other key should interrupt NVDA from speaking.
If nothing happens even after reboot, we can figure it out from there.

Here's how to power off your tablet.
1. Try pressing the power button. If that doesn't start the process, maybe
things aren't set up to work that way, or something is preventing it from
working.
2. The next thing to try would be a hard power off. This depends on the
machine, but generally holding power for at least 5 seconds will do it.
This doesn't give Windows a chance to shut down properly and save your work,
so I generally only do this if I can't easily shut it down any other way.
After that, just power it on normally.

On 12/21/2018 4:19 PM, molly the blind tech lover wrote:

Hey guys, Molly here again.

I don't know what happened but all of a sudden my keyboard on my
tablet doesn't seem to work with nvda. I press a key, like the windows
key, and nvda is completely silent. It is silent when I press any key
on the keyboard. The only way nvda talks is if I use the mouse.

I don't know what I did, but I am so stupid. I am just too dumb to
ever be a good nvda user. Is there a way to force the machine to
restart? I am feeling completely incompetent.

Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.

Hi,
If you're coming from JAWS to NVDA, object navigation may sound
similar to touch cursor from JAWS. In fact, they are really the same.
You can't navigate freely via JAWS cursor, or in terms of NVDA, a
combination of review cursor and screen review in more recent apps.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ann Byrne
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.

Yes, Windows uses virtual memory when there isn't enough RAM, actual physical memory to store information.  Using virtual memory is only a fallback to keep things running when RAM is full and it significantly slows down the computer.  But the majority of users have more than enough physical memory, (RAM) that they never use virtual memory, unless they are using memory intensive programs, which the majority of users don't use, or unless there is some problem such as the computer being seriously infected and malware is taking up a good deal of memory. 

 

What do you mean anything you want has to be on SSD.  Strange, I've been using physical drives and still do and I don't feel any need for an SSD.  Maybe programs might open almost instantly instead of take a second or two.  Maybe my computer would boot up very quickly.  That is no advantage to me.  I use sleep or standby or whatever my versions of windows call it when I want to have the computer almost completely off.  I can wake from sleep in two or three seconds.  I only boot my computers about once a week or ten days so that instability doesn't occur from not rebooting over too long a time.  Some people may have to do so every two or three days but my impression is that a week is enough for a lot of people, maybe a little longer. 

 

Maybe web pages would load faster but they load plenty fast now and I am not on such a tight schedule that two seconds versus half a second matters.  The surface, if this report represents the  general performance of the Surface models, indicates that they are unreasonably slow.  The Surface, in that case, doesn't represent reasonably fast computers with physical hard drives.  If I buy a computer with an SSD, fine.  But I'm not going to spend money and take time to replace my current drives for what I consider to be no meaningful advantage for how I use the computer.

 

If I were doing something where disk access could really slow down the task, like a lot of file conversions and I did these sorts of tasks often, SSD might really save some time.  But for a lot of people, the time saved isn't worth worrying about if things like using sleep are done.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io

Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 4:44 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm using my keyboard

No indeed, and it has mostly been the case with windows over the years, as
it always has used what it calls virtual memory, ie hard disc space.
 I only use hard drives for backups and storage of non time critical stuff.
anything you want now has to be on ssd.

Indeed there is one very fast old computer with a normal drive here, anan
ancient dell laptop on xp. It has however got a small drive and hence not a
lot of stuff on it.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tyler Wood" <tcwood12@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2018 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm using my
keyboard


> What world is that in? lol. Unless you're referring to the surface pro 6,
> then it is about on parr with other laptops with solid state storage.
>
>
> I mean, unless you want to go with a 1 tb spinning hard drive and in 2018,
> that's a hard sell.
>
>
> I was using a computer recently that had a core i7-7820HQ (that's a quad
> core processor with 8 threads). It had a mechanical 1 terabyte hard drive,
> and it was made last year.
>
>
> Browsing the web was so much slower than on a machine with a solid state
> drive. It shouldn't be - after all the web browser was already loaded -
> but it was truly painful. Restarting was just about as painful, to. Even
> comparing this to a cheap windows device with a solid state drive - even
> EMMC storage - and I truthfully can't recommend a mechanical hard drive
> these days. And I'm not even getting into general performance. Moving
> around the screen was painfully slow. Opening apps took far longer than a
> machine with a hard drive, even 4 or 5 years ago, used to. I'm not sure if
> it was the screen reader making performance that much worse, but it was
> similar to using a computer, back in the day, that had 256 mb of ram and
> ran windows xp. Browsing the web, while doable, was probably my biggest
> issue.
>
>
> So, yes, while the surface go is relatively expensive when you increase
> the storage space, it comes with the benefit of having a solid state
> drive. In todays day and age, we think windows 10 is very light on
> resources. It most assuredly is not.
>
> On 2018-12-22 4:29 p.m., Shaun Everiss wrote:
>> Yeah and I was seriously going to buy one at one point.
>>
>> Not anymore, they cost more than standard laptops to get one with a lot
>> of space.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/23/2018 10:33 AM, molly the blind tech lover wrote:
>>> It sucks that these surface devices have these issues.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's
>>> Mail
>>> list account via Groups.Io
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2018 3:53 AM
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm using
>>> my
>>> keyboard
>>>
>>> Oh there will be...
>>>
>>> 1. Press and hold the power button until the screen turns off (about 10
>>> seconds), then release the power button.
>>> 2. Press and release the power button to turn your Surface back on. You
>>> should see the Microsoft logo.
>>> If that doesn't work, use this shutdown process to make sure your
>>> Surface
>>> completely turns off. Here's how:
>>> Press and hold down the power button until your Surface restarts and you
>>> see
>>> the Windows logo screen (this takes about 20 seconds), then release the
>>> power button.
>>> Surface Book, Surface Pro 4, Surface Pro 3, Surface Pro 2, and Surface
>>> Pro
>>> 1. Press and hold the power button for a full 10 seconds, until the
>>> screen
>>> turns off, then release the power button.
>>> Note
>>> On some Surface models, the screen may immediately turn off when
>>> pressing
>>> the power button. If this happens, continue to hold for the full 10
>>> seconds
>>> and then release.
>>> 2. Press and release the power button to turn your Surface back on. You
>>> should see the Surface logo.
>>> If that doesn't work, use this two-button shutdown process to make sure
>>> your
>>> Surface completely turns off. Here's how:
>>> 1. Press and hold the power button on your Surface for 30 seconds and
>>> then
>>> release it.
>>> 2.
>>> Press and hold the volume-up button and the power button at the same
>>> time
>>> for at least 15 seconds and then release both.
>>> The screen may flash the Surface logo, but continue holding the buttons
>>> down
>>> for at least 15 seconds.
>>> 3. After you release the buttons, wait 10 seconds.
>>> 4. Press and release the power button to turn your Surface back on. You
>>> should see the Surface logo.
>>> Surface 3, Surface 2, and Surface RT
>>> 1. Press and hold the power button for a full 10 seconds, until the
>>> screen
>>> turns off, then release the power button.
>>> Note
>>> On some Surface models, the screen may immediately turn off when
>>> pressing
>>> the power button. If this happens, continue to hold for the full 10
>>> seconds
>>> and then release.
>>> 2. Press and release the power button to turn your Surface back on. You
>>> should see the Surface logo.
>>> bglists@...
>>> Sent via blueyonder.
>>> Please address personal E-mail to:-
>>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>>> in the display name field.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "molly the blind tech lover" <brainardmolly@...>
>>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2018 1:06 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm using
>>> my
>>> keyboard
>>>
>>>
>>> There is no way to manually force this Microsoft surface tablet to shut
>>> down. I guess I'll have to go to the Microsoft store. Maybe they can fix
>>> it.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tyler
>>> Spivey
>>> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 7:39 PM
>>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [nvda] fore some reason nvda isn't talking when I'm using
>>> my
>>> keyboard
>>>
>>> Don't be too discouraged, breaking things is quite normal.
>>>
>>> If this is a tablet with a separate keyboard, maybe Bluetooth was turned
>>> off, the batteries died or the keyboard was turned off. Tab should at
>>> least
>>> do something, or pressing any other key should interrupt NVDA from
>>> speaking.
>>> If nothing happens even after reboot, we can figure it out from there.
>>>
>>> Here's how to power off your tablet.
>>> 1. Try pressing the power button. If that doesn't start the process,
>>> maybe
>>> things aren't set up to work that way, or something is preventing it
>>> from
>>> working.
>>> 2. The next thing to try would be a hard power off. This depends on the
>>> machine, but generally holding power for at least 5 seconds will do it.
>>> This doesn't give Windows a chance to shut down properly and save your
>>> work,
>>> so I generally only do this if I can't easily shut it down any other
>>> way.
>>> After that, just power it on normally.
>>>
>>> On 12/21/2018 4:19 PM, molly the blind tech lover wrote:
>>>> Hey guys, Molly here again.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what happened but all of a sudden my keyboard on my
>>>> tablet doesn't seem to work with nvda. I press a key, like the windows
>>>> key, and nvda is completely silent. It is silent when I press any key
>>>> on the keyboard. The only way nvda talks is if I use the mouse.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what I did, but I am so stupid. I am just too dumb to
>>>> ever be a good nvda user. Is there a way to force the machine to
>>>> restart? I am feeling completely incompetent.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Hi, Maria.

I'll try to outline what I see are some of the key differences between the two screen readers. Both have their respective pros and cons and, as I use both, I will try to be as objective as I can in compiling this list. I will say up front that this is probably not an exhaustive or complete list but items which immediately come to mind.

Advantages of NVDA Over JAWS

1. NVDA is free of cost. This not only means that no money is required to use the software but it also means that NVDA users don't need to worry about software maintenance agreements. As long as you're using a fairly modern version of Windows you can be sure that you can always run the latest NVDA version. It also means you never have to worry about being in a trial mode where NVDA will eventually stop functioning

2. NVDA is open source. This has several advantages such as more transparency, being open to community contributions and even allowing the community to take the existing source code and modify it, creating their own screen reader as long as certain terms of the license are met.

3. To my knowledge, NVDA is likely available in more languages and comes with a synthesizer capable of speaking many of these languages. This means that NVDA is capable of being used by people around the world without them first needing to acquire NVDA in their language.

4. NVDA is more of a community effort, written by its users as well as for its users. This means that, potentially, users have more to say about its development.

5. The program's actual size is much smaller, making the download much faster. This means that downloading future updates can, depending on the speed of your Internet connection, take just a few seconds.

6. Along with that, the actual installation of NVDA is lightning fast.

7. NVDA can be run portably off of a USB drive or SD card, without the need to install it onto the host computer. Nearly all features are available using the portable version.

8. NVDA's various program settings are located from within one easy to use menu, as opposed to several different dialogs as well as a menu.

9. One of my personal favorite unique NVDA features is the ability for NVDA to optionally generate ascending tones to indicate the progress indicator for tasks such as copying a file from one location to another, downloading a file in Firefox or Internet Explorer, installing a program, etc. I honestly never understood why JAWS has never implemented such a feature. JAWS is now able to do this if you use the third-party Leasey add-on but this is a program which must be purchased in order for this feature to be available.

10. Along with option 9, NVDA can also report background progress tones, a feature that I really like. As an example, this means that I can have a Windows update download and install in the background while I'm composing a document and I can still hear the ascending progress tones, hear the percentages announced verbally or both.

11. This may be subjective but I feel that NVDA's user documentation has a slightly simpler writing style. The documentation which is supplied with JAWS is both accurate and extensive but it is not written well from the perspective of a new user. I used to train people in how to use computers and screen readers and I find that I was sometimes needing to translate some of the help text supplied with JAWS. Writing manuals and help materials is as much of an art than it is a science.

12. NVDA allows users to submit bug reports and feature requests in a special repository. This has some definite advantages. It shows you the progress of your report and you will know whether and how it's being addressed, as will other users. It also means that you can search the repository for other issues to see whether they have already been reported as well as the status of those issues.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com

On 12/22/2018 8:50 PM, Maria Reyes wrote:

How different is NVDA than Jaws? what are some differences? 

Maria

blindteky@... 

Want to talk all about blind technology? 

Join the tech4theblind group: tech4theblind+subscribe@groups.io

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How different is NVDA than Jaws? what are some differences? 

Maria

blindteky@... 

Want to talk all about blind technology? 

Join the tech4theblind group: tech4theblind+subscribe@groups.io

Have an Apple product? Join the Apple411 group to discuss the iPhone, iPad, and Mac. From experienced to new users. 

Apple411+subscribe@groups.io

Hi,
If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.
Cheers,
Joseph
*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor
Ann,
I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0. At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.
A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation. However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.
David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>
On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:
My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.

Hi,
If you're coming from JAWS to NVDA, object navigation may sound similar to
touch cursor from JAWS. In fact, they are really the same.
You can't navigate freely via JAWS cursor, or in terms of NVDA, a
combination of review cursor and screen review in more recent apps.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ann Byrne
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:40 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS
cursor

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I struggle
to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.