Date   

Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Adriani Botez
 

In my view we should use such analogies for some functions  also in userguide. This would make the life much easier for beginners.

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

 

Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von marcio via Groups.Io
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 22:09
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

What a brilliant analogy! Thanks for this. Even I was needing something like that to understand better how it works itself.

Em 23/12/2018 19:06, Travis Siegel escreveu:

For those who have used a mac and their screen reader voice over, you'll find object navigation very similar to how the mac presents objects.  A screen is made up of objects, and interacting with said objects gets you more detailed views of what's going on.  Each level is independent of the other levels, and each level has different information in it.  The simplest way to describe this is by using shelves analogy.  When you first open the book hself, you are presented with a series of shelves from top to bottom.  The top shelf may have paperbacks, the second shelf may have hardbacks, and so on.  Selecting the first shelf then allows you to select what kind of book you want to read, fantasy, scifi, romance, and so on. Once you interact with the particular genre you want, then you can select a title to read, and after selecting that title, then you can see the contents of the book, which itself may be broken up into chapters, and those chapters into paragraphs, which inturn are broken up into sentences, and so on.  You get the idea.  Object navigation is nothing more than a method of breaking up the screen into contituent parts, so that you can get to information faster, (once you know how things are organized).

On Sun, 23 Dec 2018, Joseph Lee wrote:


Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

    My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I
    struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
    often does.











 


Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

What a brilliant analogy! Thanks for this. Even I was needing something like that to understand better how it works itself.
Em 23/12/2018 19:06, Travis Siegel escreveu:

For those who have used a mac and their screen reader voice over, you'll find object navigation very similar to how the mac presents objects.  A screen is made up of objects, and interacting with said objects gets you more detailed views of what's going on.  Each level is independent of the other levels, and each level has different information in it.  The simplest way to describe this is by using shelves analogy.  When you first open the book hself, you are presented with a series of shelves from top to bottom.  The top shelf may have paperbacks, the second shelf may have hardbacks, and so on.  Selecting the first shelf then allows you to select what kind of book you want to read, fantasy, scifi, romance, and so on. Once you interact with the particular genre you want, then you can select a title to read, and after selecting that title, then you can see the contents of the book, which itself may be broken up into chapters, and those chapters into paragraphs, which inturn are broken up into sentences, and so on.  You get the idea.  Object navigation is nothing more than a method of breaking up the screen into contituent parts, so that you can get to information faster, (once you know how things are organized).

On Sun, 23 Dec 2018, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

    My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I
    struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
    often does.
















Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Adriani Botez
 

Very good analogy, thank you for that.

Best
Adriani



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Travis Siegel
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 22:06
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

For those who have used a mac and their screen reader voice over, you'll find object navigation very similar to how the mac presents objects. A screen is made up of objects, and interacting with said objects gets you more detailed views of what's going on. Each level is independent of the other levels, and each level has different information in it. The simplest way to describe this is by using shelves analogy. When you first open the book hself, you are presented with a series of shelves from top to bottom. The top shelf may have paperbacks, the second shelf may have hardbacks, and so on. Selecting the first shelf then allows you to select what kind of book you want to read, fantasy, scifi, romance, and so on.
Once you interact with the particular genre you want, then you can select a title to read, and after selecting that title, then you can see the contents of the book, which itself may be broken up into chapters, and those chapters into paragraphs, which inturn are broken up into sentences, and so on. You get the idea. Object navigation is nothing more than a method of breaking up the screen into contituent parts, so that you can get to information faster, (once you know how things are organized).

On Sun, 23 Dec 2018, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice
Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of
*David Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the
Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls
within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And,
while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact
is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to
explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't
see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how
to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.









Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

molly the blind tech lover
 

Hi.

Thanks.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of marcio via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 3:49 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

OBJPad, I guess.
Download it from Here.

Em 23/12/2018 18:31, molly the blind tech lover escreveu:

Hi.
Which add on are you referring to? I'd like to install it and try it.
Thanks.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 1:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor
 
Hi,
 
well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.
 
In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.
 
 
Best
Adriani
 
 
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor
 
Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph
 
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor
 
Hey Joseph,
 
maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.
 
Best
Adriani
 
 
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor
 
Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph
 
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor
 
Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time.  Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal
 
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor
 
Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph
 
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor
 
I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.
 
On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
 
If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion 
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.
 
Cheers,
 
Joseph
 
*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David 
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... 
JAWS cursor
 
Ann,
 
I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I 
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I 
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a 
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard 
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.
 
A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's 
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a 
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't 
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object 
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain 
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in 
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know 
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat 
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may 
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard 
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, 
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next 
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen 
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.
 
David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist 
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>
 
On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:
 
    My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I
    struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
    often does.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 


Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

For those who have used a mac and their screen reader voice over, you'll find object navigation very similar to how the mac presents objects. A screen is made up of objects, and interacting with said objects gets you more detailed views of what's going on. Each level is independent of the other levels, and each level has different information in it. The simplest way to describe this is by using shelves analogy. When you first open the book hself, you are presented with a series of shelves from top to bottom. The top shelf may have paperbacks, the second shelf may have hardbacks, and so on. Selecting the first shelf then allows you to select what kind of book you want to read, fantasy, scifi, romance, and so on. Once you interact with the particular genre you want, then you can select a title to read, and after selecting that title, then you can see the contents of the book, which itself may be broken up into chapters, and those chapters into paragraphs, which inturn are broken up into sentences, and so on. You get the idea. Object navigation is nothing more than a method of breaking up the screen into contituent parts, so that you can get to information faster, (once you know how things are organized).

On Sun, 23 Dec 2018, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.








Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

Thanks for sharing. I'll give it a look!
Em 23/12/2018 18:26, David Goldfield escreveu:

Hi, Marcio.

Here's a captured version of the Microtalk.com home page from the Internet Archive. The actual content begins at the first level 1 heading.

https://web.archive.org/web/19981201045558/http://www.microtalk.com:80/

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 12/23/2018 2:46 PM, marcio via Groups.Io wrote:
I have never heard about ASAP. How it was like? Some place to find something on this even to satisfy my curiosity for old tech things? Lol

Em 23/12/2018 14:50, David Goldfield escreveu:

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0. At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation. However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:
My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.







Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

OBJPad, I guess.
Download it from Here.
Em 23/12/2018 18:31, molly the blind tech lover escreveu:

Hi.
Which add on are you referring to? I'd like to install it and try it.
Thanks.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 1:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,

well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.

In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time.  Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion 
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David 
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... 
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I 
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I 
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a 
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard 
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's 
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a 
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't 
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object 
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain 
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in 
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know 
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat 
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may 
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard 
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, 
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next 
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen 
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist 
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

    My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I
    struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
    often does.


































Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

Brice Mijares
 

When it comes to tutorials, I prefer listening to an audible one as I can follow along on my PC.


Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Adriani Botez
 

This is called Objpad and can be downloaded here:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/objPad.en.html


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von molly the blind tech lover
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 21:32
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi.
Which add on are you referring to? I'd like to install it and try it.
Thanks.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 1:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,

well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.

In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.




Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

molly the blind tech lover
 

Hi.
Which add on are you referring to? I'd like to install it and try it.
Thanks.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 1:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,

well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.

In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.




Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Gene
 

Some introductory explanation may be in order but I think that not a lot should be done at first.  I think that giving concrete examples, opening Notepad, for example, and showing how if you move up you will land in something like the untitled Notepad Window and farther up will put you in Windows somewhere such as on the desktop is far more easy to understand.  Or in a program like an e-mail program, show how as you move up, you land on more general parts of the program moving up from the message list and eventually leave the program to be somewhere in Windows. 
 
I never found verbal explanations beyond those explaining what objects are and that there are higher and lower categories of objects to be of much use when learning object navigation.  The way I learned, after learning the keystrokes used, was to experiment in various ways.  In notepad, for example, a document is all one object.  If I move by object, I don't remember where I ended up, moving left and right but if I move up, I leave the document and am in the untitled Notepad window.  That is closer to not being in the program and I believe that is considered a higher object in the tree.  The point is that I think that guided experimentation, telling the student to open a specific program, then issue a specific command and explain what the student has done and where he/she is, is far more useful.  That is how I learned, by experimenting with different commands, seeing where I was, and using that information to understand how I was moving when I would move by object.  All the verbal explanation didn't help me enough to bother with except for enough introductory explanation to understand what an object is, and how I can move deeper into a program or less into a program and actually move out of a program. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
> Hi,
>
> If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
> of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joseph
>
> *From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
> Goldfield
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
> JAWS cursor
>
> Ann,
>
> I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
> first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
> At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
> had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
> while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
> arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.
>
> A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
> method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
> window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
> want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
> navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
> program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
> Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
> that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
> However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
> review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
> not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
> review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
> and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
> current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
> character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
> reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.
>
> David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
> WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>
>
> On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:
>
>     My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I
>     struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
>     often does.
>
>
>
>






Merry Christmas

Ján Kulik
 

Hi everione, happy merry Christmas 2018


Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

David Goldfield
 

Hi, Marcio.

Here's a captured version of the Microtalk.com home page from the Internet Archive. The actual content begins at the first level 1 heading.

https://web.archive.org/web/19981201045558/http://www.microtalk.com:80/

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com

On 12/23/2018 2:46 PM, marcio via Groups.Io wrote:
I have never heard about ASAP. How it was like? Some place to find something on this even to satisfy my curiosity for old tech things? Lol

Em 23/12/2018 14:50, David Goldfield escreveu:

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0. At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation. However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:
My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.






Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

Gene
 

Again, the JAWS cursor comparison is outdated and misleading.  JAWS has a touch cursor that does what object navigation does.
 
Something that hasn't been commented on at all is web navigation.  Keys such as b, move by button, h, move by heading, n, skip blocks of links and other such keys are either identical or just about identical.  So browsing in JAWS or NVDA will be almost the same.  While this is not a difference, I mentioned it in case anyone might wonder about it.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

Ah, I definitely should have mentioned using the numeric keypad in my previous message outlining some of the major differences. JAWS users might initially have some struggles in how NVDA uses the numeric keypad but NVDA's object navigation can sometimes access certain windows which cannot be accessed using the JAWS cursor.

.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 12/23/2018 12:20 PM, David Goldfield wrote:

Hi, Maria.

I'll try to outline what I see are some of the key differences between the two screen readers. Both have their respective pros and cons and, as I use both, I will try to be as objective as I can in compiling this list. I will say up front that this is probably not an exhaustive or complete list but items which immediately come to mind.



Advantages of NVDA Over JAWS

1. NVDA is free of cost. This not only means that no money is required to use the software but it also means that NVDA users don't need to worry about software maintenance agreements. As long as you're using a fairly modern version of Windows you can be sure that you can always run the latest NVDA version. It also means you never have to worry about being in a trial mode where NVDA will eventually stop functioning

2. NVDA is open source. This has several advantages such as more transparency, being open to community contributions and even allowing the community to take the existing source code and modify it, creating their own screen reader as long as certain terms of the license are met.

3. To my knowledge, NVDA is likely available in more languages and comes with a synthesizer capable of speaking many of these languages. This means that NVDA is capable of being used by people around the world without them first needing to acquire NVDA in their language.

4. NVDA is more of a community effort, written by its users as well as for its users. This means that, potentially, users have more to say about its development.

5. The program's actual size is much smaller, making the download much faster. This means that downloading future updates can, depending on the speed of your Internet connection, take just a few seconds.

6. Along with that, the actual installation of NVDA is lightning fast.

7. NVDA can be run portably off of a USB drive or SD card, without the need to install it onto the host computer. Nearly all features are available using the portable version.

8. NVDA's various program settings are located from within one easy to use menu, as opposed to several different dialogs as well as a menu.

9. One of my personal favorite unique NVDA features is the ability for NVDA to optionally generate ascending tones to indicate the progress indicator for tasks such as copying a file from one location to another, downloading a file in Firefox or Internet Explorer, installing a program, etc. I honestly never understood why JAWS has never implemented such a feature. JAWS is now able to do this if you use the third-party Leasey add-on but this is a program which must be purchased in order for this feature to be available.

10. Along with option 9, NVDA can also report background progress tones, a feature that I really like. As an example, this means that I can have a Windows update download and install in the background while I'm composing a document and I can still hear the ascending progress tones, hear the percentages announced verbally or both.

11. This may be subjective but I feel that NVDA's user documentation has a slightly simpler writing style. The documentation which is supplied with JAWS is both accurate and extensive but it is not written well from the perspective of a new user. I used to train people in how to use computers and screen readers and I find that I was sometimes needing to translate some of the help text supplied with JAWS. Writing manuals and help materials is as much of an art than it is a science.

12. NVDA allows users to submit bug reports and feature requests in a special repository. This has some definite advantages. It shows you the progress of your report and you will know whether and how it's being addressed, as will other users. It also means that you can search the repository for other issues to see whether they have already been reported as well as the status of those issues.


David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 12/22/2018 8:50 PM, Maria Reyes wrote:
How different is NVDA than Jaws? what are some differences? 

Maria
Want to talk all about blind technology? 
Join the tech4theblind group: tech4theblind+subscribe@groups.io
Have an Apple product? Join the Apple411 group to discuss the iPhone, iPad, and Mac. From experienced to new users. 


Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

Sky Mundell
 

Sadly that is the case indeed.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

 

I doubt most people use written documentation much provided with either program.  JAWS has training material in the form of tutorials and so does NVDA.  I don't know if either is superior or in what ways.  But I wouldn't let the written documentation be a factor in determining which screen-reader to use.  They both have extensive written documentation which, as I said, I doubt most users use much.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:20 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

 

Hi, Maria.

I'll try to outline what I see are some of the key differences between the two screen readers. Both have their respective pros and cons and, as I use both, I will try to be as objective as I can in compiling this list. I will say up front that this is probably not an exhaustive or complete list but items which immediately come to mind.

 

 

Advantages of NVDA Over JAWS

1. NVDA is free of cost. This not only means that no money is required to use the software but it also means that NVDA users don't need to worry about software maintenance agreements. As long as you're using a fairly modern version of Windows you can be sure that you can always run the latest NVDA version. It also means you never have to worry about being in a trial mode where NVDA will eventually stop functioning

2. NVDA is open source. This has several advantages such as more transparency, being open to community contributions and even allowing the community to take the existing source code and modify it, creating their own screen reader as long as certain terms of the license are met.

3. To my knowledge, NVDA is likely available in more languages and comes with a synthesizer capable of speaking many of these languages. This means that NVDA is capable of being used by people around the world without them first needing to acquire NVDA in their language.

4. NVDA is more of a community effort, written by its users as well as for its users. This means that, potentially, users have more to say about its development.

5. The program's actual size is much smaller, making the download much faster. This means that downloading future updates can, depending on the speed of your Internet connection, take just a few seconds.

6. Along with that, the actual installation of NVDA is lightning fast.

7. NVDA can be run portably off of a USB drive or SD card, without the need to install it onto the host computer. Nearly all features are available using the portable version.

8. NVDA's various program settings are located from within one easy to use menu, as opposed to several different dialogs as well as a menu.

9. One of my personal favorite unique NVDA features is the ability for NVDA to optionally generate ascending tones to indicate the progress indicator for tasks such as copying a file from one location to another, downloading a file in Firefox or Internet Explorer, installing a program, etc. I honestly never understood why JAWS has never implemented such a feature. JAWS is now able to do this if you use the third-party Leasey add-on but this is a program which must be purchased in order for this feature to be available.

10. Along with option 9, NVDA can also report background progress tones, a feature that I really like. As an example, this means that I can have a Windows update download and install in the background while I'm composing a document and I can still hear the ascending progress tones, hear the percentages announced verbally or both.

11. This may be subjective but I feel that NVDA's user documentation has a slightly simpler writing style. The documentation which is supplied with JAWS is both accurate and extensive but it is not written well from the perspective of a new user. I used to train people in how to use computers and screen readers and I find that I was sometimes needing to translate some of the help text supplied with JAWS. Writing manuals and help materials is as much of an art than it is a science.

12. NVDA allows users to submit bug reports and feature requests in a special repository. This has some definite advantages. It shows you the progress of your report and you will know whether and how it's being addressed, as will other users. It also means that you can search the repository for other issues to see whether they have already been reported as well as the status of those issues.

 

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com

On 12/22/2018 8:50 PM, Maria Reyes wrote:

How different is NVDA than Jaws? what are some differences? 

Maria

Want to talk all about blind technology? 

Join the tech4theblind group: tech4theblind+subscribe@groups.io

Have an Apple product? Join the Apple411 group to discuss the iPhone, iPad, and Mac. From experienced to new users. 


Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

Gene
 

I doubt most people use written documentation much provided with either program.  JAWS has training material in the form of tutorials and so does NVDA.  I don't know if either is superior or in what ways.  But I wouldn't let the written documentation be a factor in determining which screen-reader to use.  They both have extensive written documentation which, as I said, I doubt most users use much.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws?

Hi, Maria.

I'll try to outline what I see are some of the key differences between the two screen readers. Both have their respective pros and cons and, as I use both, I will try to be as objective as I can in compiling this list. I will say up front that this is probably not an exhaustive or complete list but items which immediately come to mind.



Advantages of NVDA Over JAWS

1. NVDA is free of cost. This not only means that no money is required to use the software but it also means that NVDA users don't need to worry about software maintenance agreements. As long as you're using a fairly modern version of Windows you can be sure that you can always run the latest NVDA version. It also means you never have to worry about being in a trial mode where NVDA will eventually stop functioning

2. NVDA is open source. This has several advantages such as more transparency, being open to community contributions and even allowing the community to take the existing source code and modify it, creating their own screen reader as long as certain terms of the license are met.

3. To my knowledge, NVDA is likely available in more languages and comes with a synthesizer capable of speaking many of these languages. This means that NVDA is capable of being used by people around the world without them first needing to acquire NVDA in their language.

4. NVDA is more of a community effort, written by its users as well as for its users. This means that, potentially, users have more to say about its development.

5. The program's actual size is much smaller, making the download much faster. This means that downloading future updates can, depending on the speed of your Internet connection, take just a few seconds.

6. Along with that, the actual installation of NVDA is lightning fast.

7. NVDA can be run portably off of a USB drive or SD card, without the need to install it onto the host computer. Nearly all features are available using the portable version.

8. NVDA's various program settings are located from within one easy to use menu, as opposed to several different dialogs as well as a menu.

9. One of my personal favorite unique NVDA features is the ability for NVDA to optionally generate ascending tones to indicate the progress indicator for tasks such as copying a file from one location to another, downloading a file in Firefox or Internet Explorer, installing a program, etc. I honestly never understood why JAWS has never implemented such a feature. JAWS is now able to do this if you use the third-party Leasey add-on but this is a program which must be purchased in order for this feature to be available.

10. Along with option 9, NVDA can also report background progress tones, a feature that I really like. As an example, this means that I can have a Windows update download and install in the background while I'm composing a document and I can still hear the ascending progress tones, hear the percentages announced verbally or both.

11. This may be subjective but I feel that NVDA's user documentation has a slightly simpler writing style. The documentation which is supplied with JAWS is both accurate and extensive but it is not written well from the perspective of a new user. I used to train people in how to use computers and screen readers and I find that I was sometimes needing to translate some of the help text supplied with JAWS. Writing manuals and help materials is as much of an art than it is a science.

12. NVDA allows users to submit bug reports and feature requests in a special repository. This has some definite advantages. It shows you the progress of your report and you will know whether and how it's being addressed, as will other users. It also means that you can search the repository for other issues to see whether they have already been reported as well as the status of those issues.


David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 12/22/2018 8:50 PM, Maria Reyes wrote:
How different is NVDA than Jaws? what are some differences? 

Maria
Want to talk all about blind technology? 
Join the tech4theblind group: tech4theblind+subscribe@groups.io
Have an Apple product? Join the Apple411 group to discuss the iPhone, iPad, and Mac. From experienced to new users. 


Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

I have never heard about ASAP. How it was like? Some place to find something on this even to satisfy my curiosity for old tech things? Lol

Em 23/12/2018 14:50, David Goldfield escreveu:

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0. At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation. However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8 and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous, current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:
My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view.  I struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor often does.






Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Adriani Botez
 

For example I am using object navigation on wordpress where many combo boxes are not very accessible. For example in the widgets area.
Another example are different windows 10 apps or the dell power management tool.

But there are lots of third party apps where object navigation can be a real advantage.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 20:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I beg to differ somewhat:
1. Object hierarchy: without talking about that, object navigation won't make a lot of sense. This is because the commands defined in NVDA will refer to parents, children and so on, and one way to get a grasp of this is hierarchy (how interface elements are organized).
2. Splitting into multiple tutorials: I'd rather not at this point, as the aim is to talk about everything you need to know when it comes to using object navigation (this is the reason why I said I'll include concepts form the user guide along with experiences).

Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,

well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.

In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.




Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

 

Hi,
I will include several examples demonstrating what I'm writing about (one of them may talk about Windows release differences also).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 11:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

ok I see. Yes I agree to point 1 as well, but it depends how far in detail you explain that. Maybe it should be combined with a practical example aalong to which you explain the hierarchy in that specific case. Anyway, I think the efficiency of object navigation and its advantages should be a quintessence of the tutorial.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 20:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I beg to differ somewhat:
1. Object hierarchy: without talking about that, object navigation won't make a lot of sense. This is because the commands defined in NVDA will refer to parents, children and so on, and one way to get a grasp of this is hierarchy (how interface elements are organized).
2. Splitting into multiple tutorials: I'd rather not at this point, as the aim is to talk about everything you need to know when it comes to using object navigation (this is the reason why I said I'll include concepts form the user guide along with experiences).

Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,

well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.

In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.




Re: How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Adriani Botez
 

Hey Joseph,

ok I see. Yes I agree to point 1 as well, but it depends how far in detail you explain that. Maybe it should be combined with a practical example aalong to which you explain the hierarchy in that specific case. Anyway, I think the efficiency of object navigation and its advantages should be a quintessence of the tutorial.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 20:20
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I beg to differ somewhat:
1. Object hierarchy: without talking about that, object navigation won't make a lot of sense. This is because the commands defined in NVDA will refer to parents, children and so on, and one way to get a grasp of this is hierarchy (how interface elements are organized).
2. Splitting into multiple tutorials: I'd rather not at this point, as the aim is to talk about everything you need to know when it comes to using object navigation (this is the reason why I said I'll include concepts form the user guide along with experiences).

Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,

well, the add-on simplifies object navigation for the normal user. I thought the tutorial was intended to address the normal users incl. beginners. But yes, an advanced user tutorial would ofcourse include also the principles of object hierarchy and the difference between simple and detailed object hierarchy. I don't know if this is understandable for beginners. We must bare in mind that object navigation principles can be very complex and in some cases could overwelm users. I would try to explain it as simple as possible without much developping details. Maybe two or three practical examples would bring more benefits for users than the theoretical principles behind it. But this is only my opinion.

In a second tutorial theoretical principles could be addressed, if people want it.


Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:46
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
I need evidence to suggest that ObjPad add-on makes object navigation much better. Besides, I think it would be helpful to get a high level overview of what object navigation is and how it works before talking about the add-on (what if some people do not wish to use the add-on).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hey Joseph,

maybe you consider doing the tutorial with objpad and structure it along that addon. I think for most users objpad makes object navigation much easier. The object navigation as it is now implemented in NVDA is actually too less user friendly. Especially if you have parent objects with lots of siplings as it is in a browser for example.

Best
Adriani


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Joseph Lee
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Dezember 2018 19:22
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
The tutorial I'll be writing will be based on concepts described in the user guide, along with what I've learned over the years as an NVDA user and developer.
Cheers,
Jsoeph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Pascal Lambert
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 10:11 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi Joseph,
I think a tutorial on object navigation would be helpful when you have time. Many on this list would appreciate it.
Have a merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to all.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 12:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

Hi,
In order to understand how object navigation works, it is helpful to get an overview of how things are laid out on screen. Effectively, when you use this mode, you're navigating in and out of various controls on screen (hierarchy, if you will).
I'll wait for more requests before writing a slightly more thorough tutorial on object navigation (I think I did this before, but can't remember quite well at the moment due to volume of changes since than and in the midst of preparing for Christmas festivities).
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brice Mijares
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 9:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ... JAWS cursor

I'd surely appreciate that. I too have a problem understanding Object navigation as I was a 18 year user of Window Eyes. Thank You.

On 12/23/2018 8:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,

If people want, I’m willing to “transcribe” object navigation portion
of my tutorial series or do a more thorough write up.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *David
Goldfield
*Sent:* Sunday, December 23, 2018 8:50 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] How different is NVDA different than Jaws? ...
JAWS cursor

Ann,

I can well relate to this struggle with object navigation. When I
first started using NVDA in 2009 I had been a user of JAWS since version 1.0.
At that time, object navigation was so confusing that I felt that I
had to turn my mind inside out just to get a grip on it and, for a
while, I pretty much ignored the capability. I just used the standard
arrow keys to navigate and was pretty content doing so.

A few things turned me around, however. First, understanding the Mac's
method of interacting with windows within windows or controls within a
window helped as the concepts, to me, were similar. And, while I don't
want to turn this into a JAWS vs NVDA debate, the fact is that object
navigation on the numeric keypad will allow you to explore certain
program windows that the JAWS cursor just doesn't see, especially in
Windows 10. When I was training new users in how to use NVDA I know
that some of them would never have been able to deal with object navigation.
However, pressing insert-7 (on the number pad) to put NVDA into flat
review mode may work for a lot of people, even though this mode may
not work for all windows. Within this mode and even in the standard
review mode the number pad commands may be more intuitive with 7, 8
and 9 for previous, current and next line, 4, 5 and 6 for previous,
current and next word and 1, 2 and 3 for previous, current and next
character. This feels very comfortable for me since ASAP, a screen
reader I used in the DOS days, used the same commands for its review capability.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist
WWW.David-Goldfield.Com <http://WWW.David-Goldfield.Com>

On 12/23/2018 11:40 AM, Ann Byrne wrote:

My most difficult issue with NVDA is understanding object view. I
struggle to move freely around the screen the way the JAWS cursor
often does.