Date   

Re: trouble closing NVDA

Lou Kolb <loukolb@...>
 

Quentin,

I won't be working again until Saturday, but I'll have a look at the
log then and send it to you, as well. Many thanks. Lou

On 2/4/19, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
Sorry Lou, I should have specified that :)

If you have NVDA running, you can open the log either from NVDA's tools
menu (NVDA+n, then T, the ENTER to view log, or by pressing NVDA+F1). You
can also find it in the %temp% directory (both the current nvda.log and the
previous nvda-old.log files are kept). More info on log files is at :
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/wiki/LogFilesAndCrashDumps

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 10:55 AM Lou Kolb <loukolb@...> wrote:

Thanks, all, for the very helpful information. I'll certainly try
those line commands. I should mention that I generally use Jaws as my
primary screen reader, mainly because I've used it for nearly 20
years. But I find I'm using NVDA more often now, especially in
situations where I don't want to get tangled in their licensing. In
fact, I do find that NVDA works better in some cases
Quentin, where do I find the NVDA log? Lou.

On 2/4/19, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
You can also quit NVDA with another comand-line switch - again press
WINDOWS+R, then type:

nvda -q

and press ENTER. I would be interested in trying to work out what is
causing the problem in any case.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 9:36 AM Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...>
wrote:

As a workaround, you can kill NVDA by typing this command:

taskkill /f /im NVDA.exe

In Administrator command prompt.


On 2/4/2019 11:23 AM, Lou Kolb wrote:
I'm using NVDA on 2 computers, a Windows 10 laptop at home and a
Windows 10 desktop at work. At home, I have no problems. At work,
however, NVDA will not close properly. I hit insert+q and I get the
Windows error sound and then the startup sound for NVDA and it
continues to run. The only way I've found to close it is to restart
the computer. It's a shared machine, so I don't have NVDA set to
start
on boot-up. Has anyone else experienced this? Is there any known fix
for it? Thanks. Lou




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess




Re: trouble closing NVDA

Gene
 

This proboem may suggest a new setting that might be a good idea to add to NVDA.  While this problem is rare, it is rather inconvenient.  Therefore, I would suggest a setting to toggle automatically restarting NVDA after a crash off or on. 
 
there may be an add-on causing this problem but at some point, someone will probably have such a problem with nothing that can be done.  What appears to be happening is that NVDA is crashing, then automatically restarting.
 

Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2019 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] trouble closing NVDA

You can also quit NVDA with another comand-line switch - again press WINDOWS+R, then type:

nvda -q

and press ENTER.  I would be interested in trying to work out what is causing the problem in any case.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 9:36 AM Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...> wrote:
As a workaround, you can kill NVDA by typing this command:

taskkill /f /im NVDA.exe

In Administrator command prompt.


On 2/4/2019 11:23 AM, Lou Kolb wrote:
> I'm using NVDA on 2 computers, a Windows 10 laptop at home and a
> Windows 10 desktop at work. At home, I have no problems. At work,
> however, NVDA will not close properly. I hit insert+q and I get the
> Windows error sound and then the startup sound for NVDA and it
> continues to run. The only way I've found to close it is to restart
> the computer. It's a shared machine, so I don't have NVDA set to start
> on boot-up. Has anyone else experienced this? Is there any known fix
> for it? Thanks. Lou
>
>
>





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: trouble closing NVDA

Quentin Christensen
 

Sorry Lou, I should have specified that :)

If you have NVDA running, you can open the log either from NVDA's tools menu (NVDA+n, then T, the ENTER to view log, or by pressing NVDA+F1).  You can also find it in the %temp% directory (both the current nvda.log and the previous nvda-old.log files are kept).  More info on log files is at : https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/wiki/LogFilesAndCrashDumps

Regards

Quentin.


On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 10:55 AM Lou Kolb <loukolb@...> wrote:
Thanks, all, for the very helpful information. I'll certainly try
those line commands. I should mention that I generally use Jaws as my
primary screen reader, mainly because I've used it for nearly 20
years. But I find I'm using NVDA more often now, especially in
situations where I don't want to get tangled in their licensing. In
fact, I do find that NVDA works better in some cases
Quentin, where do I find the NVDA log? Lou.

On 2/4/19, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
> You can also quit NVDA with another comand-line switch - again press
> WINDOWS+R, then type:
>
> nvda -q
>
> and press ENTER.  I would be interested in trying to work out what is
> causing the problem in any case.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Quentin.
>
> On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 9:36 AM Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...> wrote:
>
>> As a workaround, you can kill NVDA by typing this command:
>>
>> taskkill /f /im NVDA.exe
>>
>> In Administrator command prompt.
>>
>>
>> On 2/4/2019 11:23 AM, Lou Kolb wrote:
>> > I'm using NVDA on 2 computers, a Windows 10 laptop at home and a
>> > Windows 10 desktop at work. At home, I have no problems. At work,
>> > however, NVDA will not close properly. I hit insert+q and I get the
>> > Windows error sound and then the startup sound for NVDA and it
>> > continues to run. The only way I've found to close it is to restart
>> > the computer. It's a shared machine, so I don't have NVDA set to start
>> > on boot-up. Has anyone else experienced this? Is there any known fix
>> > for it? Thanks. Lou
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
> Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Meandering NVDA Miscellany (including that it's alive and well)

Tony Malykh
 

Hi Joseph,

Thanks for the explanation.Just out of curiosity, you compiled NVDAHelper with SSE optimization flags, right? Did you check that the compiler actually generated some SSE2 code? I'm asking because long time ago I have actually written some SSE2 assembly code for matrix multiplication, that's why I was surprised to see it here - I can't imagine NVDAHelper trying to multiply much stuff.

As for multi-processing - it makes perfect sense to do it to communicate with processes running in different architectures. But Enes was originally talking about multi-threading. I'm quite aware of green threads in Python. And yeah, I spent countless hours looking into NVDA internals too.

--Tony


On 2/4/2019 3:48 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Regarding SSE build I produced a few years ago: it is gone now, but my reason for producing it then was to test the theory that SSE builds are faster (I got mixed responses).

In theory, use of SSE (specifically SSE2 and later) will improve performance to some degree, provided that NVDA tells processors to perform the same operation on multiple bits of data. It won’t help Python, but in C++ portion, it may work. At the moment Visual Studio compiler will generate SSE/SSE2 instructions if given a chance, although it won’t benefit Python portion of NVDA nor snapshots (useful for stable releases).

As for multithreading, multiprocessing and such: yes, NVDA will use two processes (one if you are running 32-bit Windows): the main NVDA executable (really a Python interpreter), and an architecture-specific helper executable (if you asked me last week, I would have said “a helper executable”; things have changed now, especially thanks to ARM64 support). A 32-bit program can talk to other 32-bit programs without problems; but it gets a bit complicated when talking to 64-bit programs, especially when the host machine can’t understand what NVDA is talking about – for this reason, when running NVDA on Windows 10 for ARM, you’ll need to talk to an additional intermediary: x86 emulator.

As for multithreading: you can “emulate” multithreading environment in Python; I did say “emulate” because although Python will let you run individual threads for a little bit, it is still a single-threaded interpreter unless you run your Python code inside separate Python interpreters (the overhead of doing it is operating system specific, and in Windows world, more resources must be spent on process management than thread management).

Let me know if you all have any additional questions about machine-level internals of NVDA (a tip for those wishing to optimize NVDA add-ons: just don’t do it unless you are willing to get into deeper internals, as doing so will involve hours of analysis and effort; I myself won’t optimize my own add-ons unless disassembled Python bytecode says it can benefit from it).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 3:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?

 

Not much point to argue with you, but:
1. Mike said 64-bit build is needed to work with 64-bit java. That's the only real argument. Performance may improve ever so slightly, or it might stay the same, or I've even seen cases when programs run slower in 64-bit mode due to higher memory consumption. In either case judging by my own experience it's not a big deal.
2.
> joseph wrote a version of nvda with SSE2,
Show me.
3. You're confused between multi-threading and multi-processing. If you want to do multi-processing - that would require some kind of communications between processes. And worst of all - I don't see why NVDA would need multiple processes and how it would benefit from it.
In any case, trying to convince people on the Internet is a really stupid idea, so I'll probably stop here.
--Tony

On 2/4/2019 2:43 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:

I was not trying to spread panic.  Your asertions about 64 bit and SSE2 as well as multithreading are false. NVDA devs accknowledge that they do not know for  sure that switching to pure 64 bit won't improve performance, that is why they list it as a possible project that can be undertaken in google summer of code.Also, nvda does not use multithreading, in that all functions of nvda run in a single process, with the exception of the helper. Moreover, when joseph wrote a version of nvda with SSE2, people reported that it had a massive performance increase.

On 2/4/2019 10:09 PM, Tony Malykh wrote:

enes
You are one of those people who're trying to spread the panic, aren't you?
As for 64 bit, this is not the first time on this mailing list that you're complaining about. The truth is that there is no need to switch to 64-bit as it is not likely to increase performance or support of other software. So please stop using 64-bit support as the reason for imminent decline of NVDA. NVDA devs are not going to work on this just because you want it.
In another thread on this mailing list you also mentioned that NVDA should use SSE and multithreading. That's another ridiculous statement of yours. SSE is for floating point computations and therefore it's not applicable to NVDA. Multithreading is already being used in NVDA.
So, stop complaining. and stop spreading panic.

--Tony

 

On 2/4/2019 12:55 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:

hi,

I will comment on this. While NVDA isn't dieing, development has certainly slowed down considerably since Jamy left the project. NVDA is falling behind jaws in adopting some newer introduced technologies, e.g, 64 bit, UIA support for office, which jaws has implemented completely for all office apps etc. Therefore the concern which was also expressed on the dev list is certainly understandable.

On 2/4/2019 8:52 PM, David Moore wrote:

This is just one issue showing that you cannot believe everything you hear.

Especially on computer groups and lists, there is a lot of fake roomers!

Fake news is getting very dangerous in every area of our lives!

We must research what we hear, and consider the source!

David Moore

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Marco Oros
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 12:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?

 

Thank You Joseph Lee, for Your answer.

 

I was also worried. There was also some alarmed message between people,

who speachs Czech and Slovak, but It was unnecessary alarm.

 

 

 

 


Re: trouble closing NVDA

Lou Kolb <loukolb@...>
 

Thanks, all, for the very helpful information. I'll certainly try
those line commands. I should mention that I generally use Jaws as my
primary screen reader, mainly because I've used it for nearly 20
years. But I find I'm using NVDA more often now, especially in
situations where I don't want to get tangled in their licensing. In
fact, I do find that NVDA works better in some cases
Quentin, where do I find the NVDA log? Lou.

On 2/4/19, Quentin Christensen <quentin@...> wrote:
You can also quit NVDA with another comand-line switch - again press
WINDOWS+R, then type:

nvda -q

and press ENTER. I would be interested in trying to work out what is
causing the problem in any case.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 9:36 AM Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...> wrote:

As a workaround, you can kill NVDA by typing this command:

taskkill /f /im NVDA.exe

In Administrator command prompt.


On 2/4/2019 11:23 AM, Lou Kolb wrote:
I'm using NVDA on 2 computers, a Windows 10 laptop at home and a
Windows 10 desktop at work. At home, I have no problems. At work,
however, NVDA will not close properly. I hit insert+q and I get the
Windows error sound and then the startup sound for NVDA and it
continues to run. The only way I've found to close it is to restart
the computer. It's a shared machine, so I don't have NVDA set to start
on boot-up. Has anyone else experienced this? Is there any known fix
for it? Thanks. Lou




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess




Re: Meandering NVDA Miscellany (including that it's alive and well)

enes sarıbaş
 

you have a very condescending tone.

1. so you are basicly saying that not working with 64 bit java isn't a big deal? I can asure you that it most certainly is for many people who use java based applications.

2.  I don't have the link to Joseph's build, however it was talked about on this list in 2017. You should ask joseph, or find it in the archives.

3.

  Multi process would be benefitial in improving security, utilizing multiple cores of a CPU, as well as improving stability, as when one part of the screen reader crashes, it doesn't take it all with it. This is why microsoft isolated the svchost.exe processes in win10.

I know it's pointless to argue with you, so I won't waiste anymore of my time. Suffice it to say, that NVDA has recently observed performance hits in win10, notably file explorer and task manager, which does not exist in comertial readers such as jaws. Moreover, the bug in command prompt where the output is spelled out has existed ever since I can remember, and is one of the most annoying bugs in NVDA, which could easily be solved as no other screen reader experiences this.

On 2/4/2019 11:09 PM, Tony Malykh wrote:

Not much point to argue with you, but:
1. Mike said 64-bit build is needed to work with 64-bit java. That's the only real argument. Performance may improve ever so slightly, or it might stay the same, or I've even seen cases when programs run slower in 64-bit mode due to higher memory consumption. In either case judging by my own experience it's not a big deal.
2.
> joseph wrote a version of nvda with SSE2,
Show me.
3. You're confused between multi-threading and multi-processing. If you want to do multi-processing - that would require some kind of communications between processes. And worst of all - I don't see why NVDA would need multiple processes and how it would benefit from it.
In any case, trying to convince people on the Internet is a really stupid idea, so I'll probably stop here.
--Tony

On 2/4/2019 2:43 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:

I was not trying to spread panic.  Your asertions about 64 bit and SSE2 as well as multithreading are false. NVDA devs accknowledge that they do not know for  sure that switching to pure 64 bit won't improve performance, that is why they list it as a possible project that can be undertaken in google summer of code.Also, nvda does not use multithreading, in that all functions of nvda run in a single process, with the exception of the helper. Moreover, when joseph wrote a version of nvda with SSE2, people reported that it had a massive performance increase.

On 2/4/2019 10:09 PM, Tony Malykh wrote:

enes
You are one of those people who're trying to spread the panic, aren't you?
As for 64 bit, this is not the first time on this mailing list that you're complaining about. The truth is that there is no need to switch to 64-bit as it is not likely to increase performance or support of other software. So please stop using 64-bit support as the reason for imminent decline of NVDA. NVDA devs are not going to work on this just because you want it.
In another thread on this mailing list you also mentioned that NVDA should use SSE and multithreading. That's another ridiculous statement of yours. SSE is for floating point computations and therefore it's not applicable to NVDA. Multithreading is already being used in NVDA.
So, stop complaining. and stop spreading panic.

--Tony


On 2/4/2019 12:55 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:

hi,

I will comment on this. While NVDA isn't dieing, development has certainly slowed down considerably since Jamy left the project. NVDA is falling behind jaws in adopting some newer introduced technologies, e.g, 64 bit, UIA support for office, which jaws has implemented completely for all office apps etc. Therefore the concern which was also expressed on the dev list is certainly understandable.

On 2/4/2019 8:52 PM, David Moore wrote:

This is just one issue showing that you cannot believe everything you hear.

Especially on computer groups and lists, there is a lot of fake roomers!

Fake news is getting very dangerous in every area of our lives!

We must research what we hear, and consider the source!

David Moore

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Marco Oros
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 12:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?

 

Thank You Joseph Lee, for Your answer.

 

I was also worried. There was also some alarmed message between people,

who speachs Czech and Slovak, but It was unnecessary alarm.

 

 

 

 


Re: Meandering NVDA Miscellany (including that it's alive and well)

 

Hi,

Regarding SSE build I produced a few years ago: it is gone now, but my reason for producing it then was to test the theory that SSE builds are faster (I got mixed responses).

In theory, use of SSE (specifically SSE2 and later) will improve performance to some degree, provided that NVDA tells processors to perform the same operation on multiple bits of data. It won’t help Python, but in C++ portion, it may work. At the moment Visual Studio compiler will generate SSE/SSE2 instructions if given a chance, although it won’t benefit Python portion of NVDA nor snapshots (useful for stable releases).

As for multithreading, multiprocessing and such: yes, NVDA will use two processes (one if you are running 32-bit Windows): the main NVDA executable (really a Python interpreter), and an architecture-specific helper executable (if you asked me last week, I would have said “a helper executable”; things have changed now, especially thanks to ARM64 support). A 32-bit program can talk to other 32-bit programs without problems; but it gets a bit complicated when talking to 64-bit programs, especially when the host machine can’t understand what NVDA is talking about – for this reason, when running NVDA on Windows 10 for ARM, you’ll need to talk to an additional intermediary: x86 emulator.

As for multithreading: you can “emulate” multithreading environment in Python; I did say “emulate” because although Python will let you run individual threads for a little bit, it is still a single-threaded interpreter unless you run your Python code inside separate Python interpreters (the overhead of doing it is operating system specific, and in Windows world, more resources must be spent on process management than thread management).

Let me know if you all have any additional questions about machine-level internals of NVDA (a tip for those wishing to optimize NVDA add-ons: just don’t do it unless you are willing to get into deeper internals, as doing so will involve hours of analysis and effort; I myself won’t optimize my own add-ons unless disassembled Python bytecode says it can benefit from it).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Malykh
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 3:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?

 

Not much point to argue with you, but:
1. Mike said 64-bit build is needed to work with 64-bit java. That's the only real argument. Performance may improve ever so slightly, or it might stay the same, or I've even seen cases when programs run slower in 64-bit mode due to higher memory consumption. In either case judging by my own experience it's not a big deal.
2.
> joseph wrote a version of nvda with SSE2,
Show me.
3. You're confused between multi-threading and multi-processing. If you want to do multi-processing - that would require some kind of communications between processes. And worst of all - I don't see why NVDA would need multiple processes and how it would benefit from it.
In any case, trying to convince people on the Internet is a really stupid idea, so I'll probably stop here.
--Tony

On 2/4/2019 2:43 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:

I was not trying to spread panic.  Your asertions about 64 bit and SSE2 as well as multithreading are false. NVDA devs accknowledge that they do not know for  sure that switching to pure 64 bit won't improve performance, that is why they list it as a possible project that can be undertaken in google summer of code.Also, nvda does not use multithreading, in that all functions of nvda run in a single process, with the exception of the helper. Moreover, when joseph wrote a version of nvda with SSE2, people reported that it had a massive performance increase.

On 2/4/2019 10:09 PM, Tony Malykh wrote:

enes
You are one of those people who're trying to spread the panic, aren't you?
As for 64 bit, this is not the first time on this mailing list that you're complaining about. The truth is that there is no need to switch to 64-bit as it is not likely to increase performance or support of other software. So please stop using 64-bit support as the reason for imminent decline of NVDA. NVDA devs are not going to work on this just because you want it.
In another thread on this mailing list you also mentioned that NVDA should use SSE and multithreading. That's another ridiculous statement of yours. SSE is for floating point computations and therefore it's not applicable to NVDA. Multithreading is already being used in NVDA.
So, stop complaining. and stop spreading panic.

--Tony

 

On 2/4/2019 12:55 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:

hi,

I will comment on this. While NVDA isn't dieing, development has certainly slowed down considerably since Jamy left the project. NVDA is falling behind jaws in adopting some newer introduced technologies, e.g, 64 bit, UIA support for office, which jaws has implemented completely for all office apps etc. Therefore the concern which was also expressed on the dev list is certainly understandable.

On 2/4/2019 8:52 PM, David Moore wrote:

This is just one issue showing that you cannot believe everything you hear.

Especially on computer groups and lists, there is a lot of fake roomers!

Fake news is getting very dangerous in every area of our lives!

We must research what we hear, and consider the source!

David Moore

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Marco Oros
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 12:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?

 

Thank You Joseph Lee, for Your answer.

 

I was also worried. There was also some alarmed message between people,

who speachs Czech and Slovak, but It was unnecessary alarm.

 

 

 

 


Re: trouble closing NVDA

Quentin Christensen
 

You can also quit NVDA with another comand-line switch - again press WINDOWS+R, then type:

nvda -q

and press ENTER.  I would be interested in trying to work out what is causing the problem in any case.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 9:36 AM Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@...> wrote:
As a workaround, you can kill NVDA by typing this command:

taskkill /f /im NVDA.exe

In Administrator command prompt.


On 2/4/2019 11:23 AM, Lou Kolb wrote:
> I'm using NVDA on 2 computers, a Windows 10 laptop at home and a
> Windows 10 desktop at work. At home, I have no problems. At work,
> however, NVDA will not close properly. I hit insert+q and I get the
> Windows error sound and then the startup sound for NVDA and it
> continues to run. The only way I've found to close it is to restart
> the computer. It's a shared machine, so I don't have NVDA set to start
> on boot-up. Has anyone else experienced this? Is there any known fix
> for it? Thanks. Lou
>
>
>





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: Meandering NVDA Miscellany (including that it's alive and well)

Tony Malykh
 

Not much point to argue with you, but:
1. Mike said 64-bit build is needed to work with 64-bit java. That's the only real argument. Performance may improve ever so slightly, or it might stay the same, or I've even seen cases when programs run slower in 64-bit mode due to higher memory consumption. In either case judging by my own experience it's not a big deal.
2.
> joseph wrote a version of nvda with SSE2,
Show me.
3. You're confused between multi-threading and multi-processing. If you want to do multi-processing - that would require some kind of communications between processes. And worst of all - I don't see why NVDA would need multiple processes and how it would benefit from it.
In any case, trying to convince people on the Internet is a really stupid idea, so I'll probably stop here.
--Tony

On 2/4/2019 2:43 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:

I was not trying to spread panic.  Your asertions about 64 bit and SSE2 as well as multithreading are false. NVDA devs accknowledge that they do not know for  sure that switching to pure 64 bit won't improve performance, that is why they list it as a possible project that can be undertaken in google summer of code.Also, nvda does not use multithreading, in that all functions of nvda run in a single process, with the exception of the helper. Moreover, when joseph wrote a version of nvda with SSE2, people reported that it had a massive performance increase.

On 2/4/2019 10:09 PM, Tony Malykh wrote:

enes
You are one of those people who're trying to spread the panic, aren't you?
As for 64 bit, this is not the first time on this mailing list that you're complaining about. The truth is that there is no need to switch to 64-bit as it is not likely to increase performance or support of other software. So please stop using 64-bit support as the reason for imminent decline of NVDA. NVDA devs are not going to work on this just because you want it.
In another thread on this mailing list you also mentioned that NVDA should use SSE and multithreading. That's another ridiculous statement of yours. SSE is for floating point computations and therefore it's not applicable to NVDA. Multithreading is already being used in NVDA.
So, stop complaining. and stop spreading panic.

--Tony


On 2/4/2019 12:55 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:

hi,

I will comment on this. While NVDA isn't dieing, development has certainly slowed down considerably since Jamy left the project. NVDA is falling behind jaws in adopting some newer introduced technologies, e.g, 64 bit, UIA support for office, which jaws has implemented completely for all office apps etc. Therefore the concern which was also expressed on the dev list is certainly understandable.

On 2/4/2019 8:52 PM, David Moore wrote:

This is just one issue showing that you cannot believe everything you hear.

Especially on computer groups and lists, there is a lot of fake roomers!

Fake news is getting very dangerous in every area of our lives!

We must research what we hear, and consider the source!

David Moore

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Marco Oros
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 12:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?

 

Thank You Joseph Lee, for Your answer.

 

I was also worried. There was also some alarmed message between people,

who speachs Czech and Slovak, but It was unnecessary alarm.

 

 

 

 


Re: win 10 safe mode

Ervin, Glenn
 

I’m in on this late, and I have not gone back to follow the thread, but I was of the understanding that audio is already available in safe mode in windows 10.

In windows 7, I have the registry patch enabled.

Glenn

 

 

Glenn Ervin  Orientation Counselor II

Norfolk Nebraska

402 370 3436

Cell: 402 992 0325

Welcome | NCBVI

 


Re: Meandering NVDA Miscellany (including that it's alive and well)

enes sarıbaş
 

I was not trying to spread panic.  Your asertions about 64 bit and SSE2 as well as multithreading are false. NVDA devs accknowledge that they do not know for  sure that switching to pure 64 bit won't improve performance, that is why they list it as a possible project that can be undertaken in google summer of code.Also, nvda does not use multithreading, in that all functions of nvda run in a single process, with the exception of the helper. Moreover, when joseph wrote a version of nvda with SSE2, people reported that it had a massive performance increase.

On 2/4/2019 10:09 PM, Tony Malykh wrote:

enes
You are one of those people who're trying to spread the panic, aren't you?
As for 64 bit, this is not the first time on this mailing list that you're complaining about. The truth is that there is no need to switch to 64-bit as it is not likely to increase performance or support of other software. So please stop using 64-bit support as the reason for imminent decline of NVDA. NVDA devs are not going to work on this just because you want it.
In another thread on this mailing list you also mentioned that NVDA should use SSE and multithreading. That's another ridiculous statement of yours. SSE is for floating point computations and therefore it's not applicable to NVDA. Multithreading is already being used in NVDA.
So, stop complaining. and stop spreading panic.

--Tony


On 2/4/2019 12:55 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:

hi,

I will comment on this. While NVDA isn't dieing, development has certainly slowed down considerably since Jamy left the project. NVDA is falling behind jaws in adopting some newer introduced technologies, e.g, 64 bit, UIA support for office, which jaws has implemented completely for all office apps etc. Therefore the concern which was also expressed on the dev list is certainly understandable.

On 2/4/2019 8:52 PM, David Moore wrote:

This is just one issue showing that you cannot believe everything you hear.

Especially on computer groups and lists, there is a lot of fake roomers!

Fake news is getting very dangerous in every area of our lives!

We must research what we hear, and consider the source!

David Moore

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Marco Oros
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 12:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?

 

Thank You Joseph Lee, for Your answer.

 

I was also worried. There was also some alarmed message between people,

who speachs Czech and Slovak, but It was unnecessary alarm.

 

 

 

 


Re: trouble closing NVDA

Tony Malykh
 

As a workaround, you can kill NVDA by typing this command:

taskkill /f /im NVDA.exe

In Administrator command prompt.

On 2/4/2019 11:23 AM, Lou Kolb wrote:
I'm using NVDA on 2 computers, a Windows 10 laptop at home and a
Windows 10 desktop at work. At home, I have no problems. At work,
however, NVDA will not close properly. I hit insert+q and I get the
Windows error sound and then the startup sound for NVDA and it
continues to run. The only way I've found to close it is to restart
the computer. It's a shared machine, so I don't have NVDA set to start
on boot-up. Has anyone else experienced this? Is there any known fix
for it? Thanks. Lou


Re: trouble closing NVDA

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Lou,

I haven't seen this, but I would be interested to see a copy of your NVDA log if you could send it to me please.

One thing to check is are you running any add-ons, and if so, are they up to date?  If you update any add-ons, and / or restart NVDA with add-ons disabled, it would be interested to see if it still happens.

Since the exit screen isn't working, you can restart NVDA without add-ons by pressing WINDOWS+R to open the run dialog, then copy or type the following in to it and press ENTER:

nvda -rm --disable-addons 

Kind regards

Quentin. 


On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 8:45 AM Lou Kolb <loukolb@...> wrote:
I'm using NVDA on 2 computers, a Windows 10 laptop at home and a
Windows 10 desktop at work. At home, I have no problems. At work,
however, NVDA will not close properly. I hit insert+q and I get the
Windows error sound and then the startup sound for NVDA and it
continues to run. The only way I've found to close it is to restart
the computer. It's a shared machine, so I don't have NVDA set to start
on boot-up. Has anyone else experienced this? Is there any known fix
for it? Thanks. Lou





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: trouble closing NVDA

Gene
 

Are you using any add-ons?  Also, you don't have to shut down the computer to unload NVDA.  I don't use Windows 10 so someone else can tell you how to use the task manager to stop the program.  Using the task manager is something you should know regardless of whether you have this problem.  it is necessary, at times, to use it to shut down programs that have frozen or can't be shut down properly for some reason.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Lou Kolb
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2019 1:23 PM
Subject: [nvda] trouble closing NVDA

I'm using NVDA on 2 computers, a Windows 10 laptop at home and a
Windows 10 desktop at work. At home, I have no problems. At work,
however, NVDA will not close properly. I hit insert+q and I get the
Windows error sound and then the startup sound for NVDA and it
continues to run. The only way I've found to close it is to restart
the computer. It's a shared machine, so I don't have NVDA set to start
on boot-up. Has anyone else experienced this? Is there any known fix
for it? Thanks. Lou



Re: Is there an explanation for this strange NVDA behaviour?

Quentin Christensen
 

It does indeed sound as Brian describes, when running on battery, the computer is being throttled to conserve power.  I know this was a big issue in the early days of Windows 10 - I don't know whether it's got better, or whether it's just that all the people in the group it affected worked around it?  In any case, the workaround was to go into your power settings and set it for high performance rather than balanced on any of the conservative settings.

Regards

Quentin.

On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 8:27 AM Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
Sounds to me like the processor or some part of the system is slow on
batteries. I have noticed that they do tend to throttle  processors to
conserve battery  life. If you recall even Apple did this on their hardware,
but did not tell anyone.
 How old is the laptop and what sort of spec?

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christo de Klerk" <christodeklerk@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2019 3:48 PM
Subject: [nvda] Is there an explanation for this strange NVDA behaviour?


> Hello especially to NVDA developers
>
>
>
>
> I have encountered the very strange behaviour I will describe below and
> wonder if there is an explanation or fix for it. This is what happens:
>
>
>
>
> I have noticed this only in Edge. When my laptop runs on its battery and I
> do a read to end in Edge, NVDA will read for a few minutes, maybe two or
> three minutes, then stops reading. When I move my arrow keys, I notice
> that the cursor position is far behind the point where NVDA stopped
> reading. When my laptop runs off the mains, this does not happen at all.
> NVDA reads continuously for however long I want it to read and the cursor
> keeps up with the reading position. I hope this makes sense, because it is
> quite bizarre to me.
>
>
>
>
> Kind regards
>
> Christo
>
>
>
>







--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Official NVDA Training modules and expert certification now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 


Re: python

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


A few people on the list gave books etc you can learn from. Some are free and some are paid.


I put them into a doc file just in case people wanted it.


They are below if i come across others I will add to the list.




Learning Python books and courses

 

 

 

 

 

Learn python the hard way https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/

 

A python hands on tutorial http://anh.cs.luc.edu/python/hands-on/3.1/handsonHtml/index.html

 

Python for Everybody: Exploring Data Using Python 3 https://open.umn.edu/opentextbooks/textbooks/336

 

 

And some online courses,

 

These are free, but if you want a certificate of completion, you can pay for it if you pass the course.

 

 

Introduction to Python for Data Science https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-python-for-data-science

 

Python for data science https://www.edx.org/course/python-for-data-science-1

 

Introduction to Python: Absolute Beginner https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-python-absolute-beginner-2

 

Introduction to Python: Fundamentals https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-python-fundamentals-2

 

Principles of Machine Learning: Python Edition https://www.edx.org/course/principles-of-machine-learning-python-edition

 

Computing in Python I: Fundamentals and Procedural Programming https://www.edx.org/course/computing-in-python-i-fundamentals-and-procedural-programming-2

 

Computing in Python II: Control Structures https://www.edx.org/course/computing-in-python-ii-control-structures-2

 

Computing in Python III: Data Structures https://www.edx.org/course/computing-in-python-iii-data-structures-2

 

Computing in Python IV: Objects & Algorithms https://www.edx.org/course/computing-in-python-iv-objects-algorithms-2

 

Visualizing Data with Python https://www.edx.org/course/data-visualization-with-python

 

Advanced Algorithmics and Graph Theory with Python https://www.edx.org/course/advanced-algorithmics-and-graph-theory-with-python

 

Analyzing Data with Python https://www.edx.org/course/data-analysis-with-python

 

Deep Learning with Python and PyTorch https://www.edx.org/course/deep-learning-with-python-and-pytorch

 

Python Basics for Data Science https://www.edx.org/course/python-basics-for-data-science

 

Machine Learning with Python: A Practical Introduction https://www.edx.org/course/machine-learning-with-python-for-edx

 

Using Python for Research https://www.edx.org/course/using-python-for-research

 

Introduction to Python: Creating Scalable, Robust, Interactive Code https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-python-creating-scalable-robust-interactive-code

 

Programming with Python for Data Science https://www.edx.org/course/programming-with-python-for-data-science

 

Introduction to Programming Using Python https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-programming-using-python

 

CS For All: Introduction to Computer Science and Python Programming https://www.edx.org/course/cs-all-introduction-computer-science-harveymuddx-cs005x-0

 

 

These are all pay courses, but if you are careful, you can buy bundles that have multiple courses in them.

 

 

Stone river elearning has 32 python courses at: https://stoneriverelearning.com/courses/category/Python

 

 

skillwise has several python courses, some of which are listed below.

 

Python Programming Bootcamp 2.0 https://www.skillwise.com/sales/python-programming-bootcamp-2-2

 

Python 3 Bootcamp Bundle https://www.skillwise.com/sales/python-bootcamp-2017-python-3

 

Machine Learning with Python Course and E-Book Bundle https://www.skillwise.com/sales/the-python-machine-learning-online-course-and-book-bundle

 

Deep Learning: Convolutional Neural Networks in Python https://www.skillwise.com/sales/deep-learning-convolutional-neural-networks-in-python

 

The Python Power Coder BONUS Bundle https://www.skillwise.com/sales/the-python-power-coder-bonus-bundle

 

Become a Professional Python Programmer https://www.skillwise.com/sales/become-a-professional-python-programmer

 

Python Tutorial: Python 100% Hands-On - Learn by Coding https://www.skillwise.com/sales/python-tutorial-python-100-hands-on-learn-by-coding

 

Pay What You Want: The Python Master Class Bundle https://www.skillwise.com/sales/pwyw-the-python-master-class-bundle

 

 

And, finally, educba.com also has python courses such as:

 

Become a Python Developer

 

Artificial Intelligence with python

python 3.5 Training

The Ultimate python Programming - Novice to Ninja

Practical Projects of python Programming

python:01 - python Fundamentals

Data Science with python

python for Beginners

Machine Learning using python

 

Now, I know the educba classes are expensive if bought separately, but if you hang out on stacksocial.com or even skillwise.com ( at times) you can purchase whole groups of training all at once.  I got a deal for all of stone river Elearning for $59, then for $99 I got the whole collection of educba classes.  (the next day, I saw it for $49) *grumble*), so if you're patient, and if you really want to learn, there's no reason why you can't learn anything you like.  This is just talking about python classes and books, but this works for just about any topic.

 

stackskills.com also has several python courses, and I got access to 1100 plus courses (all it/technology related for $19 again, from stacksocial.com

 

 

 

https://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/

 

 

Here's A Byte of Python.

 

 

https://python.swaroopch.com/

 

 

Here's Think Python.

 

 

http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkpython/html/index.html

 

 

Here's one on programming games.

 

 

http://inventwithpython.com/

 

 

Finally, here's a link somebody posted a while back to stuff Joseph

wrote up.

 

 

 

On 5/02/2019 9:31 AM, Kerryn Gunness via Groups.Io wrote:
hi group
do you have any tutorial or book on absolute basic course on python for beginners?
thanks



--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
 
Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which location (or locations) are nearest to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa).
To find out which software is installed on the APNK network please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/software To find out how to use NVDA on APNK computers please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/nvda
 

To find out which software is available on the Christchurch City Library network, and how to start the NVDA screen reader, please go to the following links. Software available  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faq/computers/#faq_5884  How to start the NVDA screen reader on Christchurch City Library computers  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faqs/what-screen-reader-software-is-available/
 
To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: Meandering NVDA Miscellany (including that it's alive and well)

Kevin Cussick
 

How ever, is there any plans to replace Jamey?

On 04/02/2019 21:37, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi,
Regarding development slowing down: perhaps because of number of commits. However, when we look at today’s master commits, we’re seeing increase in activity from third-party developers. The most promising example is basic support for Microsoft Management Console (MMC)/Disk Management/graphical view, which was not written by NV Access, but by a college student.
Cheers,
Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 12:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?
hi,
I will comment on this. While NVDA isn't dieing, development has certainly slowed down considerably since Jamy left the project. NVDA is falling behind jaws in adopting some newer introduced technologies, e.g, 64 bit, UIA support for office, which jaws has implemented completely for all office apps etc. Therefore the concern which was also expressed on the dev list is certainly understandable.
On 2/4/2019 8:52 PM, David Moore wrote:
This is just one issue showing that you cannot believe everything you hear.
Especially on computer groups and lists, there is a lot of fake roomers!
Fake news is getting very dangerous in every area of our lives!
We must research what we hear, and consider the source!
David Moore
David Moore
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Marco Oros <mailto:marco.oros93@...>
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 12:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?
Thank You Joseph Lee, for Your answer.
I was also worried. There was also some alarmed message between people,
who speachs Czech and Slovak, but It was unnecessary alarm.


Re: Meandering NVDA Miscellany (including that it's alive and well)

Tony Malykh
 

enes
You are one of those people who're trying to spread the panic, aren't you?
As for 64 bit, this is not the first time on this mailing list that you're complaining about. The truth is that there is no need to switch to 64-bit as it is not likely to increase performance or support of other software. So please stop using 64-bit support as the reason for imminent decline of NVDA. NVDA devs are not going to work on this just because you want it.
In another thread on this mailing list you also mentioned that NVDA should use SSE and multithreading. That's another ridiculous statement of yours. SSE is for floating point computations and therefore it's not applicable to NVDA. Multithreading is already being used in NVDA.
So, stop complaining. and stop spreading panic.

--Tony


On 2/4/2019 12:55 PM, enes sarıbaş wrote:

hi,

I will comment on this. While NVDA isn't dieing, development has certainly slowed down considerably since Jamy left the project. NVDA is falling behind jaws in adopting some newer introduced technologies, e.g, 64 bit, UIA support for office, which jaws has implemented completely for all office apps etc. Therefore the concern which was also expressed on the dev list is certainly understandable.

On 2/4/2019 8:52 PM, David Moore wrote:

This is just one issue showing that you cannot believe everything you hear.

Especially on computer groups and lists, there is a lot of fake roomers!

Fake news is getting very dangerous in every area of our lives!

We must research what we hear, and consider the source!

David Moore

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Marco Oros
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 12:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?

 

Thank You Joseph Lee, for Your answer.

 

I was also worried. There was also some alarmed message between people,

who speachs Czech and Slovak, but It was unnecessary alarm.

 

 

 

 


Re: Meandering NVDA Miscellany (including that it's alive and well)

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Amen, David. I'm so tired of fake news.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 12:53 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?

 

This is just one issue showing that you cannot believe everything you hear.

Especially on computer groups and lists, there is a lot of fake roomers!

Fake news is getting very dangerous in every area of our lives!

We must research what we hear, and consider the source!

David Moore

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Marco Oros
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 12:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?

 

Thank You Joseph Lee, for Your answer.

 

I was also worried. There was also some alarmed message between people,

who speachs Czech and Slovak, but It was unnecessary alarm.

 

 

 

 


Re: Donating was Re: [nvda] Is NVDA really dying? Can I do anything to help?

Kevin Cussick
 

Hi, agreed, this is what I have done now for some years.

On 04/02/2019 14:16, erik burggraaf wrote:
It's up to each person how and what they donate, but here is what really helped me.
I set things up so that a very small amount comes out every month and goes to envy access.  It's an amount that I don't miss.  in fact, I would have to go over my financial records to actually determine how much I've donated to nvda over the years.  Whatever the amount is, I'm sure nvda is worth far more to me than what I have actually paid.  it also seems to me that the amount would be far more than I could contribute in one two or even three lump sums.  If you set it up for a dollar a week, or a few dollars a month, the cumulative effect over time is amazing.  If hundreds or thousands or even tens of thousands of people set up these small amounts, just think of the possibilities.
another thing to consider is sustainability. When applying for certain grants, and declaring Financial, some organizations are checking to see how viable you have been overtime.  NV access probably gets lots of donations, but it would be difficult for a funding provider to determine the likelihood of future donations.  By tracking these subscription donations, a funding provider can get an idea of what might be donated in the future. Many grants and funding providers feel better about giving to a sustainable project.  Thus, setting up a small subscription amount has other benefits outside of the income generated for envy access.
Best,
Eeik
On February 3, 2019 2:02:23 AM "tapper via Groups.Io" <j.lancett@...> wrote:
NVDA is not going anywhere! If you care so much about it, If you are
able you should donate. Even if it's just $10 Projects don't come for
free. I am not having a dig at any one I have bin running NVDA for about
4 years now and only donated twice, but I do it when I can. In fact I am
going to do it rite now. NVDA $20 comming your way!
Thanks Tapper