Date   

Re: Problems With NVDA

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Jean,

 

Wow, I’m surprised Open Book worked well in 512MB.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 08 February 2019 21:54
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems With NVDA

 

I'm saying from personal experience that I had an XP machine that ran well on 512mb.  Maybe if I had run memory intensive programs, and had programs working in the background, it might not have but for browsing, streaming, e-mail, Openbook, and other typical uses, it ran well.  It was faster than my XP machines with more memory; maybe the chip had more caching. 

 

My point is not to argue just to argue, but I don't want those who are running 32bit Windows to assume that performance problems are caused by memory. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, February 08, 2019 2:14 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems With NVDA

 

Xp would run on 1gb, but it didn't run well.  windows 7 plus won't run well on 2gb.  I have 4 in my windows 8.1 machine, and most of the time it behaves ok, but at times when I have things going on in the background while doing other things, even that bogs down.

XP can certainly run on 512MB, Heck, I ran it on 256MB at times, though it's not recommended.  My personal experience is that windows is not happy with less than 4GB once you get out of the XP stage.

On 2/8/2019 2:40 PM, Gene wrote:

Are you basing these comments on personal experience of running 32bit Windows with 2GB?  That is 1Gb over the Microsoft minimum.  I don't agree with your assessment.  I had a Windows XP machine with only 512MB of RAM and it ran well.  I have a 32GB Windows 7 laptop with 4GB of RAM.  It runs well. 


 

Sent: Friday, February 08, 2019 12:50 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems With NVDA

 

Sure it is, if you don't multitask, (have multiple programs open at once), leave programs open for hours at a time, and reboot regularly (meaning every day or two), and don't run programs like microsoft office which has some memory leaks that tend to eat memory the longer they're left open.  For some values of normal usage, yes, 2GB is fine, but for the rest of us, 2GB barely qualifies as enough to run windows os by itself.  Tablets are different, since they have a (slightly) different version of windows that optimizes memory usage, but normal windows, under normal usage patterns, it will not be happy with only 2GB of ram, because it will have to swap a lot, and that will slow things down.  There's a reason computers seem to appear so much faster when upgraded from 2 to 4GB of ram in every single case I've seen, and it's because memory swapping doesn't have to occur nearly as often, and that makes the system much faster overall.  Sure, you can get along with 2GB of ram, but it's like driving a bicycle to get around as opposed to a motorcycle.  Sure, the bicycle will work, but the motorcycle is considerably faster, and can do things the bicycle can't.  Same thing with 2 vs. 4 GB of ram on windows.

Don't fool yourself, there's a reason windows states 2GB as a minimum, it's just that, the minimum required to run the os.  That doesn't mean the os will run optimally or even perform adequately, just that it will run.

On 2/8/2019 5:54 AM, Gene wrote:

That is not true.  2GB is fine for 32bit versions of Windows. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 10:27 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems With NVDA

 

umm, you're confusing ram and storage.  An SD card won't give you more
ram, that will only provide more external storage.  swapping SD cards
allows you to copy more files to those cards, but does nothing for your
RAM, which is where programs run.  2GB is poretty low for any version of
windows, except if you're using a tablet, there's not much you can do
about it. If you're on a pc, it's (usually) easy to upgrade the ram in
the computer, providing you have empty slots or the ram you have isn't
maxed out.  Most machines can only take a limited amount of ram, and you
need to know what that limit is before trying to upgrade the machine.
However, though I don't know for sure, it sounds to me like you're
talking about a tablet, in which case, the ram isn't upgradable.

On 2/7/2019 7:05 PM, Ibrahim Ajayi wrote:
> Hello again:
> I thank all those who found time to respond to my issue.
> Brian, My GBRam is a low grid.  It is just 2GB.  But even with that I
> don't have this problem with JAWS.  But as I said yesterday, chrome
> appears to be reasonably fine with the screen reader, although firefox
> and internet explorer are almost unusable.
> I am thinking of increasing my GB ram with an SDCard.
> Regards.
> Ibrahim.
>
> On 2/7/19, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <bglists@...> wrote:
>> Well I'd not go that far but it is faster on lower spec machines,
>> certainly.
>>   Brian
>>
>> bglists@...
>> Sent via blueyonder.
>> Please address personal E-mail to:-
>> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>> in the display name field.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
>> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 8:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems With NVDA
>>
>>
>> Use Chrome, it is better than either Firefox or Internet Explorer.
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ibrahim Ajayi
>> Sent: 07 February 2019 00:07
>> To: nvda@groups.io
>> Subject: [nvda] Problems With NVDA
>>
>> Hello:
>> I am having problems with my NVDA screen reader.
>> The screen reader is just too slow when I am browsing the internet.
>> When I am doing some other work like word processing or reading documents
>> off line, it is not slow.
>> This problem has nothing to do with the websites, as I don't have this slow
>>
>> problems online with JAWS.  I use a demo copy of JAWS.
>> Secondly, when I visit a website, or even some times when I launch a web
>> browser like internet explorer or firefox, I hear "internet explorer
>> unknown" or "firefox unknown" and the screen goes quiet, and when I press
>> the arrow down key, that is what I keep hearing.  Some times, when I am on a
>>
>> site, or trying to open a site, the screen reader crashes, and disables the
>>
>> computer itself.  I just have to shut it down, and then restart it all over
>>
>> again.
>> Does anyone understand the problem I am having with my NVDA screen reader?
>> I use windows7 32 bit on a laptop.
>> I have the latest update of the screen reader.
>> Hope to read a helpful response.
>> I am Ibrahim.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>



Re: NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Brian,

 

I’m guessing that Office 2010 only uses the document object model, and not UIA to expose its information.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 08 February 2019 18:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

 

I am running Win10, Version 1809, Home, 64-bit and just tested with Word 2010 and Word 2016.

Narrator will not read document text in Word 2010, but will read it in Word 2016.  This is really not surprising, as Microsoft is not going to try to reach into the wayback machine to ensure infinite backward compatibility between Narrator, which came on the scene with Windows 8, and versions of Office that far predate that OS.

If someone has Word 2013 it would be interesting to know whether Narrator works with it.  This was the first version of Word that has a "look and feel" that's very similar to that in use today.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

Steve Nutt
 

Yes, but not Outlook, can you?  If so, I’d love to hear it.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ron Canazzi
Sent: 08 February 2019 15:54
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

Hi Steve,

 

Using Thunderbird with the Mozilla add on, you can indeed suppress column headers.

 

On 2/8/2019 7:29 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Jean,

 

If you are using a screen reader to do your job, the last thing you want is to have extra keystrokes just for reading Email.

 

There is this thing called efficiency, and JAWS has it more than NVDA at the moment for me.

 

When NVDA starts really addressing efficiency in terms of Outlook and stuff like that, then it’s worth looking at again.

 

For example, in NVDA, you can’t supress what columns are read in an Email, such as replied, attached, unread, etc, in JAWS you can.  This means you can remove some you don’t want and make the listening experience much nicer.  For example, I remove the Importance flag, because I don’t often get messages that say Importance High, but you can’t get rid of that with NVDA.

 

This is just another area where JAWS is much more efficient than NVDA.  If you are just writing the odd Email at home and don’t use it for work, this is OK, but when the rubber hits the road, JAWS has several efficiencies built in, regarding verbosity and such, that NVDA doesn’t accomplish for me.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 08 February 2019 11:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

I'd use the one that is free and performs very well.  There is such a thing as being fanatically demanding, expecting a screen-reader to do everything perfectly.  I've seen others engage in this sort of fanaticism.  Because screen-readers are what they are, and because Windows and Windows programs are what they are, there are times when you get better performance and eliminate annoyances by maing very minor adaptations to help your screen-reader do its job efficiently.  I am not saying you are fanatical, I don't know your general approach.  But I've seen people go through needless inconvenience and unsuccessful attempts to solve very minor behaviors like this instead of adapting a solution that may take a quarter second per message. 

 

And here is an example of a problem both the other screen-reader, I assume you are referring to JAWS, and NVDA both have.  If you do a search on a web page, you hear a lot of extraneous text.  Read current line as soon as the screen-reader starts to speak eliminates this extra verbiage and may save half a second or a second or more, when hearing the results of a search.

 

With the e-mail program I use, Windows Live Mail, and as I recall, with Outlook Express in the old days, NVDA would read extraneous information when I returned to the message list after reading a message.  It says things like inbox, Windows Live mail Outlook Express message list.  I can eliminate all this by simply using read current line.  How much time does one command take?  a quarter of a second?  It's automatic if you do it for not too long a time. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Friday, February 08, 2019 5:02 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

Yes, but if I don’t need to perform that extra keystroke with every single Email I open with another screen reader, which am I going to use?

 

All the best

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 07 February 2019 15:44
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

It is only one more command.  I use it regularly and it takes almost no time and effort because it becomes automatic.  it takes more time and is certainly more annoying to hear the subject read again and I believe some e-mail programs may read other extraneous information. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 9:17 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

Too many keystrokes.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 07 February 2019 12:53
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

You can cause JAWS to read the message body and not read all that extraneous information by getting in the habit of issuing read to end after opening a message.  You may have to experiment to see if you have to wait at all before issuing the command.  If you get in the habit of doing this, it becomes automatic and you can do this very quickly.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 5:33 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

Hi
I have Outlook 2007 and after pressing enter on a message in the folder
list, NVDA reads the text in the subject box not the whole line, then it
announces the message format, then the control type i.e "Dialog, Message
document, multi-line", then it reads the first line of the message body.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: 6 February 2019 15:09
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

Hi,

I'm using Outlook 2016, and it does indeed read the subject line.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Monte Single
Sent: 06 February 2019 13:03
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

No.  When I open  your message, nvda reads the body of the message, it does
not read the subject line.  Yes, I am using outlook 2013.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: February-06-19 6:50 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

Hi,

That's really nothing to do with the differences between JAWS and NVDA,
performing with the same programs.

NVDA is a lot more responsive using Outlook, but it is not very good at
reading the unread messages in the folder tree.

It also insists on reading the subject line again when you open a message,
though I believe you can kill this by making a profile and turning off
object descriptions.

JAWS is more intuitive, just turn off reading message headers in outlook
verbosity.

This is why I say that JAWS is much more intuitive, you have to dive into
some techie detail to figure out some of NVDA's settings.  There is also no
search for settings in NVDA, I'd like to see this kind of thing, JAWS does
it so well.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 06 February 2019 11:41
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

Jaws seems unable any more to read some of the flags on Outlook Express and
live mail.OK discontinued software but many  still use them like myself with
the former. Its only Microsoft who seem to not want to develop whatwas a
very capable  email and newsgroup  program and chose to use the awfully
limited  windows 10 mail instead or force everyone down the full outlook
route.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA


> Hi,
>
> In Windows 10, it still has a hook loaded, but I think that's what
> gives it the advantage.
>
> You can also run a portable version of JAWS without the hook though.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's
> Mail list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: 05 February 2019 18:33
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA
>
> OK we will just use a 1 ton weight instead hanging from a crane
> then...grin I do agree that although the screen and other navigation
> modes are powerful, the issue is the way to use them for those not
> interested in understanding objects children and all of that layered
> stuff. Flat review only seems to be utilising half of the power, but
> since I am not sure what Jaws actually is doing behind the scenes,
> given they probably harvest similar data, I'll leave it at that.
> I do notice though that even today, Jaws has a video interceptor
> loaded in windows 7.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 5:03 PM
> Subject: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA
>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> With all this talk about 64-bit NVDA would be a lot better, I have to
>> say that NVDA, using CodeFactory's Eloquence add-on, is more
>> responsive for me now than JAWS.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, another piece of good news, my Windows settings in Control
>> Panel in Windows 10 is now accessible with NVDA, whereas for ages, it
>> wouldn't speak any of that window.  I realise it was limited to a few
>> configurations, but it sure was annoying at the time.  I also realise
>> that these problems are borne of problems with UIA, rather than
>> problems with NVDA.
>>
>>
>>
>> In short, although I have, and will continue to, use JAWS for a while
>> yet,
>
>> I
>> think that NVDA is coming on in leaps and bounds.
>>
>>
>>
>> But there are one or two very silly things about NVDA.  For example,
>> it won't read how many messages are unread in a folder, when you
>> Control+Y in Outlook.  This is seriously annoying to me and one
>> reason I couldn't use it full time.  It is visually there, and JAWS
>> reads it, so in my view, by now, NVDA should read it too.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, flat review and object nav is not as intuitive as the JAWS cursor.
>> You can't just do a screen find, and click on it.  We really need an
>> equivalent to Hotspot Clicker in NVDA as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> I keep coming back to this, because I want NVDA to be the go-to
>> screen reader for everyone, but I think JAWS still has a little more
>> polish than NVDA.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just one guy's opinion, don't shoot me.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Computer Room Services
>>
>> 77 Exeter Close
>>
>> Stevenage
>>
>> Hertfordshire
>>
>> SG1 4PW
>>
>> Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>
>> Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>
>> Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>
>> Email:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>>
>> Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
















-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Felix,

I think it's just Jean's way of defending NVDA's deficiencies, which are certainly there.

All screen readers have some deficiencies, whether we like it or not, but it seems talking about them gets people upset.

All the best

Steve

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Felix G.
Sent: 08 February 2019 15:07
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

Hi,
strictly in terms of time, the differences may seem insignificant.
However, repeatedly having to filter out redundant information is exhausting for the brain. Repeatedly having to type additional commands puts additional strain on the fingers. Last but definitely not least, in terms of accumulated stress, perceived inefficiency is much more significant than actual objective inefficiency. Tell someone repeatedly for a couple of days that he looks a bit pale, and his immune system suffers. Make someone repeatedly feel inefficient at what she is doing, and her sense of self-worth decreases. There is such a thing as a delightful user experience, and when we fail to strive for it in the absence of objective utility, people will hate our solutions.
Best,
Felix

Am Fr., 8. Feb. 2019 um 15:41 Uhr schrieb Gene <gsasner@...>:

One quarter of one second means that when reading e-mail, you lose one second every four e-mails read. That means that if you read twenty e-mails, you lose 5 seconds. You would have to read 120 e-mails to lose one minute and you could make up that time by setting your speech just a bit faster, hardly noticeable. And we don't kno if that time is actually being lost. By waiting for the screen-reader to start reading on its own, the responsiveness may be slower than if you issue a command to start reading. You may not be losing any time and when you get down to one quarter of a second, if indeed the time is being lost in the first place, you are talking about meaningless differences.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2019 6:29 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

Jean,



If you are using a screen reader to do your job, the last thing you want is to have extra keystrokes just for reading Email.



There is this thing called efficiency, and JAWS has it more than NVDA at the moment for me.



When NVDA starts really addressing efficiency in terms of Outlook and stuff like that, then it’s worth looking at again.



For example, in NVDA, you can’t supress what columns are read in an Email, such as replied, attached, unread, etc, in JAWS you can. This means you can remove some you don’t want and make the listening experience much nicer. For example, I remove the Importance flag, because I don’t often get messages that say Importance High, but you can’t get rid of that with NVDA.



This is just another area where JAWS is much more efficient than NVDA. If you are just writing the odd Email at home and don’t use it for work, this is OK, but when the rubber hits the road, JAWS has several efficiencies built in, regarding verbosity and such, that NVDA doesn’t accomplish for me.



All the best


Steve



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 08 February 2019 11:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA



I'd use the one that is free and performs very well. There is such a thing as being fanatically demanding, expecting a screen-reader to do everything perfectly. I've seen others engage in this sort of fanaticism. Because screen-readers are what they are, and because Windows and Windows programs are what they are, there are times when you get better performance and eliminate annoyances by maing very minor adaptations to help your screen-reader do its job efficiently. I am not saying you are fanatical, I don't know your general approach. But I've seen people go through needless inconvenience and unsuccessful attempts to solve very minor behaviors like this instead of adapting a solution that may take a quarter second per message.



And here is an example of a problem both the other screen-reader, I assume you are referring to JAWS, and NVDA both have. If you do a search on a web page, you hear a lot of extraneous text. Read current line as soon as the screen-reader starts to speak eliminates this extra verbiage and may save half a second or a second or more, when hearing the results of a search.



With the e-mail program I use, Windows Live Mail, and as I recall, with Outlook Express in the old days, NVDA would read extraneous information when I returned to the message list after reading a message. It says things like inbox, Windows Live mail Outlook Express message list. I can eliminate all this by simply using read current line. How much time does one command take? a quarter of a second? It's automatic if you do it for not too long a time.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Friday, February 08, 2019 5:02 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA



Yes, but if I don’t need to perform that extra keystroke with every single Email I open with another screen reader, which am I going to use?



All the best

Steve



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 07 February 2019 15:44
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA



It is only one more command. I use it regularly and it takes almost no time and effort because it becomes automatic. it takes more time and is certainly more annoying to hear the subject read again and I believe some e-mail programs may read other extraneous information.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 9:17 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA



Too many keystrokes.



All the best


Steve



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 07 February 2019 12:53
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA



You can cause JAWS to read the message body and not read all that extraneous information by getting in the habit of issuing read to end after opening a message. You may have to experiment to see if you have to wait at all before issuing the command. If you get in the habit of doing this, it becomes automatic and you can do this very quickly.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Chris Mullins

Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 5:33 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA



Hi
I have Outlook 2007 and after pressing enter on a message in the
folder list, NVDA reads the text in the subject box not the whole
line, then it announces the message format, then the control type i.e
"Dialog, Message document, multi-line", then it reads the first line of the message body.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Steve Nutt
Sent: 6 February 2019 15:09
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

Hi,

I'm using Outlook 2016, and it does indeed read the subject line.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Monte
Single
Sent: 06 February 2019 13:03
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

No. When I open your message, nvda reads the body of the message, it
does not read the subject line. Yes, I am using outlook 2013.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Steve Nutt
Sent: February-06-19 6:50 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

Hi,

That's really nothing to do with the differences between JAWS and
NVDA, performing with the same programs.

NVDA is a lot more responsive using Outlook, but it is not very good
at reading the unread messages in the folder tree.

It also insists on reading the subject line again when you open a
message, though I believe you can kill this by making a profile and
turning off object descriptions.

JAWS is more intuitive, just turn off reading message headers in
outlook verbosity.

This is why I say that JAWS is much more intuitive, you have to dive
into some techie detail to figure out some of NVDA's settings. There
is also no search for settings in NVDA, I'd like to see this kind of
thing, JAWS does it so well.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 06 February 2019 11:41
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

Jaws seems unable any more to read some of the flags on Outlook
Express and live mail.OK discontinued software but many still use
them like myself with the former. Its only Microsoft who seem to not
want to develop whatwas a very capable email and newsgroup program
and chose to use the awfully limited windows 10 mail instead or force
everyone down the full outlook route.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA


Hi,

In Windows 10, it still has a hook loaded, but I think that's what
gives it the advantage.

You can also run a portable version of JAWS without the hook though.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's
Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 05 February 2019 18:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

OK we will just use a 1 ton weight instead hanging from a crane
then...grin I do agree that although the screen and other navigation
modes are powerful, the issue is the way to use them for those not
interested in understanding objects children and all of that layered
stuff. Flat review only seems to be utilising half of the power, but
since I am not sure what Jaws actually is doing behind the scenes,
given they probably harvest similar data, I'll leave it at that.
I do notice though that even today, Jaws has a video interceptor
loaded in windows 7.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 5:03 PM
Subject: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA


Hi all,



With all this talk about 64-bit NVDA would be a lot better, I have
to say that NVDA, using CodeFactory's Eloquence add-on, is more
responsive for me now than JAWS.



Also, another piece of good news, my Windows settings in Control
Panel in Windows 10 is now accessible with NVDA, whereas for ages,
it wouldn't speak any of that window. I realise it was limited to
a few configurations, but it sure was annoying at the time. I also
realise that these problems are borne of problems with UIA, rather
than problems with NVDA.



In short, although I have, and will continue to, use JAWS for a
while yet,
I
think that NVDA is coming on in leaps and bounds.



But there are one or two very silly things about NVDA. For
example, it won't read how many messages are unread in a folder,
when you
Control+Y in Outlook. This is seriously annoying to me and one
reason I couldn't use it full time. It is visually there, and JAWS
reads it, so in my view, by now, NVDA should read it too.



Also, flat review and object nav is not as intuitive as the JAWS cursor.
You can't just do a screen find, and click on it. We really need
an equivalent to Hotspot Clicker in NVDA as well.



I keep coming back to this, because I want NVDA to be the go-to
screen reader for everyone, but I think JAWS still has a little
more polish than NVDA.



Just one guy's opinion, don't shoot me.



All the best


Steve



--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: <mailto:steve@...> steve@...

Web: <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk






























Re: NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

Steve Nutt
 

Hi,

I haven't tried yet, but wouldn't scan mode read it, Caps Lock and Space,
then use the arrows?

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of molly the blind
tech lover
Sent: 08 February 2019 14:54
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

Hi.
To read a Microsoft word document with Narrator I think you have to press
caps lock plus R. That will start reading from the Narrator cursor.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Shook
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 9:18 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

Actually, it's narrator. I'm having trouble reading a Microsoft word
document. I can see the title bar and the items around it, but I'm having
trouble interacting with the text. b


Re: OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

Steve Nutt
 

With respect, that was the biggest load of rubbish I’ve ever read in my life.  You have to wait for the message to entirely load before you can interrupt it, so if you have to stop by pressing control, then rpress NVDA and Down, just to read it, it all takes time.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 08 February 2019 14:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

One quarter of one second means that when reading e-mail, you lose one second every four e-mails read.  That means that if you read twenty e-mails, you lose 5 seconds.  You would have to read 120 e-mails to lose one minute and you could make up that time by setting your speech just a bit faster, hardly noticeable.  And we don't kno if that time is actually being lost.  By waiting for the screen-reader to start reading on its own, the responsiveness may be slower than if you issue a command to start reading.  You may not be losing any time and when you get down to one quarter of a second, if indeed the time is being lost in the first place, you are talking about meaningless differences. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Friday, February 08, 2019 6:29 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

Jean,

 

If you are using a screen reader to do your job, the last thing you want is to have extra keystrokes just for reading Email.

 

There is this thing called efficiency, and JAWS has it more than NVDA at the moment for me.

 

When NVDA starts really addressing efficiency in terms of Outlook and stuff like that, then it’s worth looking at again.

 

For example, in NVDA, you can’t supress what columns are read in an Email, such as replied, attached, unread, etc, in JAWS you can.  This means you can remove some you don’t want and make the listening experience much nicer.  For example, I remove the Importance flag, because I don’t often get messages that say Importance High, but you can’t get rid of that with NVDA.

 

This is just another area where JAWS is much more efficient than NVDA.  If you are just writing the odd Email at home and don’t use it for work, this is OK, but when the rubber hits the road, JAWS has several efficiencies built in, regarding verbosity and such, that NVDA doesn’t accomplish for me.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 08 February 2019 11:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

I'd use the one that is free and performs very well.  There is such a thing as being fanatically demanding, expecting a screen-reader to do everything perfectly.  I've seen others engage in this sort of fanaticism.  Because screen-readers are what they are, and because Windows and Windows programs are what they are, there are times when you get better performance and eliminate annoyances by maing very minor adaptations to help your screen-reader do its job efficiently.  I am not saying you are fanatical, I don't know your general approach.  But I've seen people go through needless inconvenience and unsuccessful attempts to solve very minor behaviors like this instead of adapting a solution that may take a quarter second per message. 

 

And here is an example of a problem both the other screen-reader, I assume you are referring to JAWS, and NVDA both have.  If you do a search on a web page, you hear a lot of extraneous text.  Read current line as soon as the screen-reader starts to speak eliminates this extra verbiage and may save half a second or a second or more, when hearing the results of a search.

 

With the e-mail program I use, Windows Live Mail, and as I recall, with Outlook Express in the old days, NVDA would read extraneous information when I returned to the message list after reading a message.  It says things like inbox, Windows Live mail Outlook Express message list.  I can eliminate all this by simply using read current line.  How much time does one command take?  a quarter of a second?  It's automatic if you do it for not too long a time. 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Friday, February 08, 2019 5:02 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

Yes, but if I don’t need to perform that extra keystroke with every single Email I open with another screen reader, which am I going to use?

 

All the best

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 07 February 2019 15:44
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

It is only one more command.  I use it regularly and it takes almost no time and effort because it becomes automatic.  it takes more time and is certainly more annoying to hear the subject read again and I believe some e-mail programs may read other extraneous information. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 9:17 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

Too many keystrokes.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 07 February 2019 12:53
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

You can cause JAWS to read the message body and not read all that extraneous information by getting in the habit of issuing read to end after opening a message.  You may have to experiment to see if you have to wait at all before issuing the command.  If you get in the habit of doing this, it becomes automatic and you can do this very quickly.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 5:33 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

 

Hi
I have Outlook 2007 and after pressing enter on a message in the folder
list, NVDA reads the text in the subject box not the whole line, then it
announces the message format, then the control type i.e "Dialog, Message
document, multi-line", then it reads the first line of the message body.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: 6 February 2019 15:09
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

Hi,

I'm using Outlook 2016, and it does indeed read the subject line.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Monte Single
Sent: 06 February 2019 13:03
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

No.  When I open  your message, nvda reads the body of the message, it does
not read the subject line.  Yes, I am using outlook 2013.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Steve
Nutt
Sent: February-06-19 6:50 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

Hi,

That's really nothing to do with the differences between JAWS and NVDA,
performing with the same programs.

NVDA is a lot more responsive using Outlook, but it is not very good at
reading the unread messages in the folder tree.

It also insists on reading the subject line again when you open a message,
though I believe you can kill this by making a profile and turning off
object descriptions.

JAWS is more intuitive, just turn off reading message headers in outlook
verbosity.

This is why I say that JAWS is much more intuitive, you have to dive into
some techie detail to figure out some of NVDA's settings.  There is also no
search for settings in NVDA, I'd like to see this kind of thing, JAWS does
it so well.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 06 February 2019 11:41
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA

Jaws seems unable any more to read some of the flags on Outlook Express and
live mail.OK discontinued software but many  still use them like myself with
the former. Its only Microsoft who seem to not want to develop whatwas a
very capable  email and newsgroup  program and chose to use the awfully
limited  windows 10 mail instead or force everyone down the full outlook
route.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA


> Hi,
>
> In Windows 10, it still has a hook loaded, but I think that's what
> gives it the advantage.
>
> You can also run a portable version of JAWS without the hook though.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's
> Mail list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: 05 February 2019 18:33
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA
>
> OK we will just use a 1 ton weight instead hanging from a crane
> then...grin I do agree that although the screen and other navigation
> modes are powerful, the issue is the way to use them for those not
> interested in understanding objects children and all of that layered
> stuff. Flat review only seems to be utilising half of the power, but
> since I am not sure what Jaws actually is doing behind the scenes,
> given they probably harvest similar data, I'll leave it at that.
> I do notice though that even today, Jaws has a video interceptor
> loaded in windows 7.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 5:03 PM
> Subject: [nvda] OK died in the wool JAWS user using NVDA
>
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> With all this talk about 64-bit NVDA would be a lot better, I have to
>> say that NVDA, using CodeFactory's Eloquence add-on, is more
>> responsive for me now than JAWS.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, another piece of good news, my Windows settings in Control
>> Panel in Windows 10 is now accessible with NVDA, whereas for ages, it
>> wouldn't speak any of that window.  I realise it was limited to a few
>> configurations, but it sure was annoying at the time.  I also realise
>> that these problems are borne of problems with UIA, rather than
>> problems with NVDA.
>>
>>
>>
>> In short, although I have, and will continue to, use JAWS for a while
>> yet,
>
>> I
>> think that NVDA is coming on in leaps and bounds.
>>
>>
>>
>> But there are one or two very silly things about NVDA.  For example,
>> it won't read how many messages are unread in a folder, when you
>> Control+Y in Outlook.  This is seriously annoying to me and one
>> reason I couldn't use it full time.  It is visually there, and JAWS
>> reads it, so in my view, by now, NVDA should read it too.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, flat review and object nav is not as intuitive as the JAWS cursor.
>> You can't just do a screen find, and click on it.  We really need an
>> equivalent to Hotspot Clicker in NVDA as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> I keep coming back to this, because I want NVDA to be the go-to
>> screen reader for everyone, but I think JAWS still has a little more
>> polish than NVDA.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just one guy's opinion, don't shoot me.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Computer Room Services
>>
>> 77 Exeter Close
>>
>> Stevenage
>>
>> Hertfordshire
>>
>> SG1 4PW
>>
>> Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>
>> Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>
>> Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>
>> Email:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>>
>> Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

















Re: NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

molly the blind tech lover
 

I’m using the windowsOneCore  voices as well. My NVDA has an Australian accent but I am not sure which voice it is. It’s female, though. I like it. Sounds relatively human.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2019 11:01 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

 

On Sat, Feb 9, 2019 at 06:09 AM, molly the blind tech lover wrote:

You might like to try the new Microsoft voices. They're pretty good.

Agreed.  I particularly like the OneCore voices you get if you install additional languages (all English dialects, in my case).  They sound virtually human.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

 

On Sat, Feb 9, 2019 at 06:09 AM, molly the blind tech lover wrote:
You might like to try the new Microsoft voices. They're pretty good.
Agreed.  I particularly like the OneCore voices you get if you install additional languages (all English dialects, in my case).  They sound virtually human.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

Gene
 

I don't know if Outlook Express was the issue.  We don't know how other people had their e-mail programs set.  Or I sahould say I don't; I don't know if you know.  When you say they got infected, did they just open an e-mail or open an attachment?  Do you read mail as plain text or HTML? 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2019 4:06 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

Indeed the pesky launching of Edge is a little annoying in windows 10.
 However, I had to laugh the other day when a dodgy email  came in to a lot
of us at the tn. most people are sighted and either used webmail or Tbird.
Many of them got infected by some kind of  pop up windows were advertising
code. I did not. I am using the old Outlook Express. I thought this a little
amusing. Certainly Superantispyware removed the  thing for them but it just
goes to show that  its being careful more than outdated programs that is
often the key for keeping the computer clean.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2019 1:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet
Explorer


On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 08:16 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

>
> So why does the Cortana voice inquiry launch Internet Explorer by default
> after a Windows install?

It hasn't in my observation since Microsoft did the forced plural marriage
between Cortana, Edge, & Bing in 2016.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for
illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back







Re: NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

molly the blind tech lover
 

You might like to try the new Microsoft voices. They're pretty good.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of zahra
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2019 6:00 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

microsoft sam!
its the worst and most terrible voice that i heard in my life!
i really hate it and never can tolerate it.

On 2/9/19, molly the blind tech lover <brainardmolly@...> wrote:
Didn’t Microsoft sam sound kind of garbled? Like he was hard to understand.




From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k
Alawami
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2019 12:44 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator



Windows 2000 had sam. I remember using it on someone's very old
computer in 2004. I think it was baught in 98? I wouldn't know as I
was not around then at this person's house.



On 8 Feb 2019, at 18:09, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

What voice did windows 2000 have for narrator? I jumped from XP to
windows 7 and that system had Microsoft Anna.







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 3:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator



all windows from xp had narator.

But to be honest, narator on anything before 10 wasn't much good,
aparently windows 2000 had narator and aparently it was usable then but who knows.



On 9/02/2019 9:06 AM, molly the blind tech lover wrote:

Do you guys know if Windows 7 had Narrator? I had a windows 7 machine
but I can’t recall if it had Narrator.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brad
Snyder
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 2:38 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator



The “Wayback Machine”, eh? Love it.


- Brad -






On Feb 8, 2019, at 12:25, Brian Vogel <@britechguy
<mailto:@britechguy> > wrote:



I am running Win10, Version 1809, Home, 64-bit and just tested with
Word
2010 and Word 2016.

Narrator will not read document text in Word 2010, but will read it in
Word 2016. This is really not surprising, as Microsoft is not going
to try to reach into the wayback machine to ensure infinite backward
compatibility between Narrator, which came on the scene with Windows
8, and versions of Office that far predate that OS.

If someone has Word 2013 it would be interesting to know whether
Narrator works with it. This was the first version of Word that has a
"look and feel" that's very similar to that in use today.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the
need for illusion is deep.

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back













--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


Re: NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

Ian Blackburn
 

Yes and before that there were hardware synthesises One of the worst was called votrax
Regards Ian

On 9 Feb 2019, at 6:59 pm, zahra <nasrinkhaksar3@...> wrote:

microsoft sam!
its the worst and most terrible voice that i heard in my life!
i really hate it and never can tolerate it.

On 2/9/19, molly the blind tech lover <brainardmolly@...> wrote:
Didn’t Microsoft sam sound kind of garbled? Like he was hard to understand.




From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k
Alawami
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2019 12:44 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator



Windows 2000 had sam. I remember using it on someone's very old computer in
2004. I think it was baught in 98? I wouldn't know as I was not around then
at this person's house.



On 8 Feb 2019, at 18:09, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

What voice did windows 2000 have for narrator? I jumped from XP to windows 7
and that system had Microsoft Anna.







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 3:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator



all windows from xp had narator.

But to be honest, narator on anything before 10 wasn't much good, aparently
windows 2000 had narator and aparently it was usable then but who knows.



On 9/02/2019 9:06 AM, molly the blind tech lover wrote:

Do you guys know if Windows 7 had Narrator? I had a windows 7 machine but I
can’t recall if it had Narrator.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brad Snyder
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 2:38 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator



The “Wayback Machine”, eh? Love it.


- Brad -






On Feb 8, 2019, at 12:25, Brian Vogel <@britechguy
<mailto:@britechguy> > wrote:



I am running Win10, Version 1809, Home, 64-bit and just tested with Word
2010 and Word 2016.

Narrator will not read document text in Word 2010, but will read it in Word
2016. This is really not surprising, as Microsoft is not going to try to
reach into the wayback machine to ensure infinite backward compatibility
between Narrator, which came on the scene with Windows 8, and versions of
Office that far predate that OS.

If someone has Word 2013 it would be interesting to know whether Narrator
works with it. This was the first version of Word that has a "look and
feel" that's very similar to that in use today.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for
illusion is deep.

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back













--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


Re: NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

 

microsoft sam!
its the worst and most terrible voice that i heard in my life!
i really hate it and never can tolerate it.

On 2/9/19, molly the blind tech lover <brainardmolly@...> wrote:
Didn’t Microsoft sam sound kind of garbled? Like he was hard to understand.




From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k
Alawami
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2019 12:44 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator



Windows 2000 had sam. I remember using it on someone's very old computer in
2004. I think it was baught in 98? I wouldn't know as I was not around then
at this person's house.



On 8 Feb 2019, at 18:09, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:

What voice did windows 2000 have for narrator? I jumped from XP to windows 7
and that system had Microsoft Anna.







From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 3:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator



all windows from xp had narator.

But to be honest, narator on anything before 10 wasn't much good, aparently
windows 2000 had narator and aparently it was usable then but who knows.



On 9/02/2019 9:06 AM, molly the blind tech lover wrote:

Do you guys know if Windows 7 had Narrator? I had a windows 7 machine but I
can’t recall if it had Narrator.



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brad Snyder
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 2:38 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator



The “Wayback Machine”, eh? Love it.


- Brad -






On Feb 8, 2019, at 12:25, Brian Vogel <@britechguy
<mailto:@britechguy> > wrote:



I am running Win10, Version 1809, Home, 64-bit and just tested with Word
2010 and Word 2016.

Narrator will not read document text in Word 2010, but will read it in Word
2016. This is really not surprising, as Microsoft is not going to try to
reach into the wayback machine to ensure infinite backward compatibility
between Narrator, which came on the scene with Windows 8, and versions of
Office that far predate that OS.

If someone has Word 2013 it would be interesting to know whether Narrator
works with it. This was the first version of Word that has a "look and
feel" that's very similar to that in use today.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for
illusion is deep.

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back












--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


Re: Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

molly the blind tech lover
 

I only use chrome on my phone. But on my laptop and tablet I use firefox 100% of the time.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Clare Page
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2019 5:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

Hi!
Firefox certainly works well with NVDA, I've used it 99.9% of the time for several years now: I switched to it when I had a faulty version of Internet Explorer, and haven't looked back. I haven't even opened IE for years: I have Google Chrome as a backup web browser, although I don't use it very much, but it's worked well with NVDA on the rare occasions I've used it. Good to still have a choice, even on Windows 7 which I still have, now that IE is dying!
Bye for now!
From Clare

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Clarissa Mitchell
Sent: samedi 9 février 2019 02:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

I hardly use IE anymore at all. For me, it's either Chrome or Firefox.
There were one or two site-specific functions I still had to use IE for because of one thing or another, but I'm going to find a way to access those sites with Chrome, which is my main browser. I'm still working on that. I haven't used IE as my main browser in ages. I don't understand why people are even still using that browser; it's outdated and, at least on my more recent computers, slow as a snail! To me, there's really not that much difference in using one of the other browsers, from a screen reader standpoint anyway. You can still use a lot of the same navigation commands. I don't know about Edge; I haven't used it much, but as far as I can tell, Chrome and Firefox work great with NVDA.

On 2/8/19, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
Article that came out today in The Telegraph newspaper in the UK:

Stop using Internet Explorer, warns Microsoft's own security
chief (
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/02/08/stop-using-internet-
explorer-warns-microsofts-security-chief/
)

If that doesn't convince people that the shelf life of IE is now
expired, nothing will.
--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the
need for illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back




Re: Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

Clare Page <clare.page@...>
 

Hi!
Firefox certainly works well with NVDA, I've used it 99.9% of the time for several years now: I switched to it when I had a faulty version of Internet Explorer, and haven't looked back. I haven't even opened IE for years: I have Google Chrome as a backup web browser, although I don't use it very much, but it's worked well with NVDA on the rare occasions I've used it. Good to still have a choice, even on Windows 7 which I still have, now that IE is dying!
Bye for now!
From Clare

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Clarissa Mitchell
Sent: samedi 9 février 2019 02:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

I hardly use IE anymore at all. For me, it's either Chrome or Firefox.
There were one or two site-specific functions I still had to use IE
for because of one thing or another, but I'm going to find a way to
access those sites with Chrome, which is my main browser. I'm still
working on that. I haven't used IE as my main browser in ages. I don't
understand why people are even still using that browser; it's outdated
and, at least on my more recent computers, slow as a snail! To me,
there's really not that much difference in using one of the other
browsers, from a screen reader standpoint anyway. You can still use a
lot of the same navigation commands. I don't know about Edge; I
haven't used it much, but as far as I can tell, Chrome and Firefox
work great with NVDA.

On 2/8/19, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
Article that came out today in The Telegraph newspaper in the UK:

Stop using Internet Explorer, warns Microsoft's own security chief
(
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/02/08/stop-using-internet-explorer-warns-microsofts-security-chief/
)

If that doesn't convince people that the shelf life of IE is now expired,
nothing will.
--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for
illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back




Re: Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

molly the blind tech lover
 

I use firefox to access my school’s website among other things. I’m pretty sure my school still uses internet explorer in some cases.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of marcio via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2019 5:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

 

Same here. Actually I do use Firefox way more than the other one, but I still have it, as from what I've seen some websites just seem to behave better using one and not the other.


Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter

Em 09/02/2019 07:56, molly the blind tech lover escreveu:

Well internet explorer was great while it lasted. I've been using Chrome and Firefox for two years now. 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kwork
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2019 12:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer
 
Actually mine launched Edge by default. Not sure why it launched IE for others.
 
Travis
 
On 2/8/2019 6:23 PM, Clarissa Mitchell wrote:
I hadn't thought of that.
 
 
On 2/8/19, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:
This is interesting.  So why does the Cortana voice inquiry launch 
Internet Explorer by default after a Windows install? Now I changed 
it since then, but how many people take the time to do so?
 
 
On 2/8/2019 6:50 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Article that came out today in /The Telegraph/ newspaper in the UK:
 
/Stop using Internet Explorer, warns Microsoft's own security chief 
<https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/02/08/stop-using-intern
et-explorer-warns-microsofts-security-chief/>/
 
If that doesn't convince people that the shelf life of IE is now 
expired, nothing will.
--
 
Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
 
*/A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the 
need for illusion is deep./*
 
           ~ Saul Bellow, /To Jerusalem and Back/
 
 
--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 


Re: Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

molly the blind tech lover
 

I find this article very interesting. It says Microsoft does not support new development of internet explorer. No surprise there.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2019 4:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

One interesting oddity I discovered lately on windows 7 was no matter when you opened the email some links in emails particularly from the British government seem to be hard wired to open the page in IE. I know this as they keep on prompting to make IE the default browser. I tend now to go to the address bar , grab the url from IE as its sluggish anyway, and launch waterfox and paste the address in there.

That seems to work very well.
Weird.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Clarissa Mitchell" <@musicgirl>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2019 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer


I hardly use IE anymore at all. For me, it's either Chrome or Firefox.
There were one or two site-specific functions I still had to use IE
for because of one thing or another, but I'm going to find a way to
access those sites with Chrome, which is my main browser. I'm still
working on that. I haven't used IE as my main browser in ages. I don't
understand why people are even still using that browser; it's outdated
and, at least on my more recent computers, slow as a snail! To me,
there's really not that much difference in using one of the other
browsers, from a screen reader standpoint anyway. You can still use a
lot of the same navigation commands. I don't know about Edge; I
haven't used it much, but as far as I can tell, Chrome and Firefox
work great with NVDA.

On 2/8/19, Brian Vogel <@britechguy> wrote:
Article that came out today in The Telegraph newspaper in the UK:

Stop using Internet Explorer, warns Microsoft's own
security chief (
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/02/08/stop-using-internet
-explorer-warns-microsofts-security-chief/
)

If that doesn't convince people that the shelf life of IE is now
expired, nothing will.
--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the
need for illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back





Re: Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

molly the blind tech lover
 

That's why I never open emails that look suspicious.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2019 5:07 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

Indeed the pesky launching of Edge is a little annoying in windows 10.
However, I had to laugh the other day when a dodgy email came in to a lot of us at the tn. most people are sighted and either used webmail or Tbird.
Many of them got infected by some kind of pop up windows were advertising code. I did not. I am using the old Outlook Express. I thought this a little amusing. Certainly Superantispyware removed the thing for them but it just goes to show that its being careful more than outdated programs that is often the key for keeping the computer clean.

Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <@britechguy>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2019 1:45 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer


On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 08:16 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:


So why does the Cortana voice inquiry launch Internet Explorer by
default after a Windows install?
It hasn't in my observation since Microsoft did the forced plural marriage between Cortana, Edge, & Bing in 2016.

--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.*

~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back


Dropbox invisible window issue

Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

Hi, There is a new version of Dropbox around 66.x. On my windows 7 machine it starts with an invisible full screen window. Now I have another program a calendar reminder that also is designed to be full screen at start up within a week of the appointment.
The thing is that although the calendar iinfo is read, I was puzzled by not being able to minimize or close it as per usual. It then transpired that if I pressed enter on the winwow, instead of Calendar being in focus, it opened the drop box menu you would normally get in the tray instead.

I want to ask if anyone else has found this behaviour and if they have found a way to stop it. I do suspect that the invisible frame is yet another advert for paid services, but since I cannot read anything your guess is as good as mine. Obviously on can open the menu, then dismiss it and things then go back to normal. I'm loathe to hid the dropbox tray item as I used to do with the old intel one which had a similar odd behaviour, since I like to know what is going on in the folders.
Anyone?
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.


Re: Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

 

Same here. Actually I do use Firefox way more than the other one, but I still have it, as from what I've seen some websites just seem to behave better using one and not the other.

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter

Em 09/02/2019 07:56, molly the blind tech lover escreveu:

Well internet explorer was great while it lasted. I've been using Chrome and Firefox for two years now. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kwork
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2019 12:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Microsoft's Own Security Chief Says: STOP using Internet Explorer

Actually mine launched Edge by default. Not sure why it launched IE for others.

Travis

On 2/8/2019 6:23 PM, Clarissa Mitchell wrote:
I hadn't thought of that.


On 2/8/19, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:
This is interesting.  So why does the Cortana voice inquiry launch 
Internet Explorer by default after a Windows install? Now I changed 
it since then, but how many people take the time to do so?


On 2/8/2019 6:50 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Article that came out today in /The Telegraph/ newspaper in the UK:

/Stop using Internet Explorer, warns Microsoft's own security chief 
<https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/02/08/stop-using-intern
et-explorer-warns-microsofts-security-chief/>/

If that doesn't convince people that the shelf life of IE is now 
expired, nothing will.
--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*/A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the 
need for illusion is deep./*

           ~ Saul Bellow, /To Jerusalem and Back/


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"






.










Re: NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

molly the blind tech lover
 

I’ve noticed something about Jaws lately. When I turn it on it takes like a minute to load. I’ve also been getting a lot of error reports lately. What’s up with that?

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Shaun Everiss
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2019 1:05 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

 

To be honest, jaws is a screen reader.

Nvda is what narator should have been a basic screen reader with extra features.

Narator is well, people call it a screen reader.

Thats true if its an ms app, but it doesn't do everything, even nvda does more than that.

But this poster is right, narator carries such a stigma with it that when it finally gets good, its name carries a crappy past.

I would rely on narator for some stuff but its more limited than nvda.

The only reason nvda is better than jaws and others in most respects is because it uses the os for most of its access and not some interseptor.

I am unsure why the rest don't inovate but neither jaws or dolphin seem to be moving fast, or in the case of jaws like microsoft seem to be trying to reinvent themselves all the time with stuff that makes you shake your head.

For nvda what I can see as advantage is mainly the speed of development, and the fact if say I want a feature, I put it out there and see.

Sometimes it pays off, sometimes not, and if a user wants to experiment they can go here is this thing, does it work or is it crap.

And then its a hit, no strings.

Look at toolbars explorer.

I remember when it was an idea.

It caught on so quick.

Firstly it was an idea.

By the end of the day an item, 2 days, something that could be something.

A week later it was something, and a month or so later its a really good thing that is making a mark.

There is no high pricetag to get that extra module for no reason or extra licence to access another windows addition without any new features.

There is no lagging behind with things.

Everyone has advantages for and against but still.

 

 

On 9/02/2019 6:29 PM, Kwork wrote:

Narrator in Windows 7 was a joke. Not even worth talking about in my opinion. It could read its own introduction screen and not much more. LOL! Microsoft Anna was a decent enough text to speech voice, but she worked better in NVDA as a SAPI 5 voice rather than windows' joke of a screenreader they called Narrator.

Brian V is correct. The name of the Windows native screenreader should probably be changed. Otherwise we'll be educating people for years who remember the joke that first debuted, to the best of my knowledge, in Windows xp.

Travis

On 2/8/2019 1:42 PM, molly the blind tech lover wrote:

I’m assuming Narrator in windows 7 was in the settings app? I don’t think my machine even had a settings app.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of bob jutzi
Sent: Friday, February 8, 2019 3:30 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA, JAWS, compared to Narrator

 

Yes.  Windows 7 had Narrator.

 

On 2/8/2019 3:29 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 03:06 PM, molly the blind tech lover wrote:

Do you guys know if Windows 7 had Narrator? I had a windows 7 machine but I can’t recall if it had Narrator.

There's been a version of Narrator around for a very long time.  Prior to Windows 10 it really was a joke.

Microsoft started taking accessibility much more seriously starting with Windows 8, with lots of refining occurring after that (and still ongoing).  Even Narrator in Windows 10 prior to Version 1809 is not the same animal as Narrator now (with now being Version 1809).

Hence my reaction earlier about talking about things that have the same name, under different versions of Windows, being senseless.  Even talking pre-1809 and post-1809 Narrator in Windows 10 is, if not apples and oranges, is kumquats and oranges.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back