Date   

Re: Using PCloud with NVDA

David Moore
 

Hi!

pCloud works great on my Android phone as well.

Talk Back accesses it very well.

It is much easier to use pCloud on any phone than with a PC.

David Moore

 

                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kliph via Groups.Io
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 2:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using PCloud with NVDA

 

Really, I use pCloud everyday on my mac and phone, and it gives me no issues what so ever.

 

Sent from Kliph’s  iPadPro


On Feb 16, 2019, at 12:35 PM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

Wow I have not used PCloud in years. I quit when they made some changes in the app that made it a bare to use, and they didn't get accessibility on the mac even after I showed them perhaps 15 screen caps of what was going on showing them what a screen reader was and pointing them to documentation. IN short, I am not sure really if those of us on windows can relly help.

On 16 Feb 2019, at 9:28, Rich DeSteno wrote:

Is anyone using PCloud with NVDA?  I want to know the best way to save and delete files in PCloud with NVDA.

--
Rich De Steno

 


Re: Some mouse navigation questions

 

Hi,

Two such places exist: The devlearning subgroup (about to get into the next set of lessons in NVDA development), and the official NVDA development list where geeky stuff gets discussed from time to time. Eventually I’ll be asking members of devlearning subgroup to either join the NVDA development list and/or the add-ons list depending on what they wish to do.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 1:52 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

Hi Joseph!

I really like your tech answers, because I am a techy.

Would it be possible to have a list or certain threads where we can talk even more tech.

I would really like to learn more about scripts, functions, and more in NVDA and in JAWS.

Maybe we could have a chat group, where we could talk about these things. That would really be great!

I have always been able to take the complex and make it simple, thus being a tutor.

However, I really enjoy talking to other math, science, and technology people, so we can speak the language.

I hope we can come to a compromise where we can talk tech somewhere, and help people on the main lists with simple answers, and make it easy for the general population to understand!

We techies just need a space to talk our stuff LOL!

Have a great one, guys!

David Moore

 

                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 2:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

I couldn't have said it better myself because I don't understand a word.  (grin)

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Rui Fontes

Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 9:46 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

People, excuse the use of portuguese...

Márcio, tal como nós temos as notas de 1 a 5, sendo 5 o melhor, nos
Estados Unidos as notas são de A a F, sendo A o melhor e F o pior...

Rui


Às 08:29 de 16/02/2019, marcio via Groups.Io escreveu:
> Guys I know I'm gonna be too stupid asking something like that and that
> hasn't anything to do with the matter now.
> However, please, what it means "to get an F" in Joseph Lee's message?
> Just gave it a google and found nothing, so...
>
> Cheers,
> Marcio
> Follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/firirinfonfon>
>
> Em 16/02/2019 04:41, Shaun Everiss escreveu:
>>
>> You know, explaining what we do depends on what we know.
>>
>> As a computer geek I find it natural to go flat tack and explain
>> things in technical terms, sometimes I forget to translate back to
>> normal understandable language and find it hard to do so at times.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16/02/2019 6:51 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Ah, I think I see where this is going.
>>>
>>> So if I’m getting this right, I got an F in explaining the whole
>>> thing. This is good news, as it is a validation of a long-standing
>>> issue I had in regards to NVDA’s own documentation set: needs major
>>> overhaul (one of the reasons for creating my audio tutorials in the
>>> first place), and the approach we as developers take to explain how
>>> things work isn’t working. As a person who is serious about
>>> documentation, I take it as a personal failure.
>>>
>>> How about this analogy: think of gestures as roads you take to arrive
>>> at a certain location. Suppose you wish to go from point A to point
>>> B. You can either walk, drive, or fly. It doesn’t matter how you do
>>> it as long as you get to your destination. In the same way, when
>>> doing a command, it doesn’t matter how you do it – either from the
>>> keyboard, a touch gesture, and what not, as long as you get something
>>> from NVDA. Adding, removing, or reassigning gestures (or commands)
>>> can be akin to adding new roads, getting around an obstruction, or
>>> closing off the airspace around the route.
>>>
>>> The things listed in Input Gestures dialog can be thought of as follows:
>>>
>>>   * Categories: all sorts of things you can do with NVDA, categorized
>>>     into different types of tasks.
>>>   * Command descriptions: what NVDA can do, or in case of the analogy
>>>     above, your destination.
>>>   * Gesture (or command) itself: ways of performing that command, or
>>>     using the analogy above, modes of travel.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> *From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Mary
>>> Otten
>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 15, 2019 9:34 PM
>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
>>>
>>> Hi Joseph,
>>> You are probably right that this should be a separate thread.
>>> However, I just want to point out that your whole explanation about
>>> JawsScripps etc. is he relevant to the average user who does not
>>> really care about programming, scripting, etc. The average user wants
>>> to use the screen reader and is not interested in all the stuff that
>>> you talked about in your last message. So when you design an
>>> interface, you need to have the average user in mind. That is the
>>> person who wants to do a task with the computer, not the geek, not
>>> the techie, and not the programmer.  Do you honestly think that the
>>> hundreds of millions of computer users throughout the world, that is
>>> the cited users, would be using computers if they had to deal with
>>> this crap? The answer is no. That’s why they invented the graphic
>>> user interface. It’s easy for sighted people. What blind programmers
>>> and others who want to make screen readers need to do is make the
>>> screen reader interface as friendly as possible for the average
>>> non-techie person.
>>> and that means using plain language where ever possible, even if it
>>> isn’t nice and elegant.g
>>>
>>> Mary
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 15, 2019, at 9:28 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...
>>> <mailto:joseph.lee22590@...>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Hi,
>>>
>>>     I think we should devote a separate thread for it, but to give
>>>     you a short answer:
>>>
>>>     Those of you coming from JAWS scripting world might be familiar
>>>     with the terms “script” and “function”. They are essentially the
>>>     same: both perform something which can be called upon from other
>>>     places. The crucial difference is how it is invoked: a script is
>>>     a function with a piece of input attached.
>>>
>>>     In the same way, NVDA code can define functions (they are really
>>>     Python functions). Just like JAWS scripts, the one difference
>>>     between a function and a script is how you invoke it: you need a
>>>     piece of input to invoke a script (basically a specially tagged
>>>     function), which can call other functions, run other scripts, and
>>>     even kill NVDA (if you want, but don’t try that at home). As long
>>>     as any kind of command is assigned to a script (keyboard command,
>>>     a touchscreen gesture, a braille display hardware button, etc.),
>>>     NVDA will let you perform something. This is why you can assign
>>>     touch commands to keyboard commands and vice versa, because NVDA
>>>     do let you assign (technically called “binding”) all sorts of
>>>     input mechanism for a command (for instance, just as you can use
>>>     keyboard to perform object navigation routines, a set of touch
>>>     swipes has been defined to perform object navigation; in fact,
>>>     these commands call the same routine).
>>>
>>>     Cheers,
>>>
>>>     Joseph
>>>
>>>     *From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>     <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>>>     *Mary Otten
>>>     *Sent:* Friday, February 15, 2019 9:16 PM
>>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
>>>
>>>     Good idea. There is probably some programming thing that gets in
>>>     the way. I hope not though, because it makes very much sense.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     On Feb 15, 2019, at 9:14 PM, Richard Wells <richwels@...
>>>     <mailto:richwels@...>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Why couldn't they be in different preference categories?
>>>         Braille for Braille, Keyboard for Keyboard, Gestures for
>>>         Touch screens and Voice control for Voice control?
>>>
>>>         On 2/15/2019 6:38 PM, Gene wrote:
>>>
>>>             The problem is, what should this array of ways of input
>>>             be called?  Maybe input commands, which would cover
>>>             everything.  This is just one more example of the decline
>>>             of English.  Apps and applications, two different things,
>>>             are used increasingly interchangeably. the language in
>>>             general is becoming less precise and accurate and this is
>>>             just one area.
>>>
>>>             Gene
>>>
>>>             ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>>             *From:*Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@...>
>>>
>>>             *Sent:*Friday, February 15, 2019 6:15 PM
>>>
>>>             *To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>
>>>             *Subject:*Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
>>>
>>>             On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 07:06 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>>
>>>                 Input gestures are more abstract
>>>
>>>             Which is precisely the problem.  Callin something that is
>>>             intimately familiar to the typical end user, and when
>>>             it's currently the only method (regardless of keyboard
>>>             being used), something "more abstract" is not the way to go.
>>>
>>>             The folks at NV Access are far from the only software
>>>             developers to go this route.   Almost every time it's the
>>>             route taken it makes things more opaque to the target
>>>             demographic, which is why it should be avoided in the
>>>             first place.
>>>
>>>             --
>>>
>>>             Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
>>>
>>>             /*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in
>>>             ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.*/
>>>
>>>                       ~ Saul Bellow, /To Jerusalem and Back/
>>>
>
>

 


Re: Some mouse navigation questions

David Moore
 

Hi Joseph!

I really like your tech answers, because I am a techy.

Would it be possible to have a list or certain threads where we can talk even more tech.

I would really like to learn more about scripts, functions, and more in NVDA and in JAWS.

Maybe we could have a chat group, where we could talk about these things. That would really be great!

I have always been able to take the complex and make it simple, thus being a tutor.

However, I really enjoy talking to other math, science, and technology people, so we can speak the language.

I hope we can come to a compromise where we can talk tech somewhere, and help people on the main lists with simple answers, and make it easy for the general population to understand!

We techies just need a space to talk our stuff LOL!

Have a great one, guys!

David Moore

 

                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 2:08 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

I couldn't have said it better myself because I don't understand a word.  (grin)

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Rui Fontes

Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 9:46 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

People, excuse the use of portuguese...

Márcio, tal como nós temos as notas de 1 a 5, sendo 5 o melhor, nos
Estados Unidos as notas são de A a F, sendo A o melhor e F o pior...

Rui


Às 08:29 de 16/02/2019, marcio via Groups.Io escreveu:
> Guys I know I'm gonna be too stupid asking something like that and that
> hasn't anything to do with the matter now.
> However, please, what it means "to get an F" in Joseph Lee's message?
> Just gave it a google and found nothing, so...
>
> Cheers,
> Marcio
> Follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/firirinfonfon>
>
> Em 16/02/2019 04:41, Shaun Everiss escreveu:
>>
>> You know, explaining what we do depends on what we know.
>>
>> As a computer geek I find it natural to go flat tack and explain
>> things in technical terms, sometimes I forget to translate back to
>> normal understandable language and find it hard to do so at times.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16/02/2019 6:51 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Ah, I think I see where this is going.
>>>
>>> So if I’m getting this right, I got an F in explaining the whole
>>> thing. This is good news, as it is a validation of a long-standing
>>> issue I had in regards to NVDA’s own documentation set: needs major
>>> overhaul (one of the reasons for creating my audio tutorials in the
>>> first place), and the approach we as developers take to explain how
>>> things work isn’t working. As a person who is serious about
>>> documentation, I take it as a personal failure.
>>>
>>> How about this analogy: think of gestures as roads you take to arrive
>>> at a certain location. Suppose you wish to go from point A to point
>>> B. You can either walk, drive, or fly. It doesn’t matter how you do
>>> it as long as you get to your destination. In the same way, when
>>> doing a command, it doesn’t matter how you do it – either from the
>>> keyboard, a touch gesture, and what not, as long as you get something
>>> from NVDA. Adding, removing, or reassigning gestures (or commands)
>>> can be akin to adding new roads, getting around an obstruction, or
>>> closing off the airspace around the route.
>>>
>>> The things listed in Input Gestures dialog can be thought of as follows:
>>>
>>>   * Categories: all sorts of things you can do with NVDA, categorized
>>>     into different types of tasks.
>>>   * Command descriptions: what NVDA can do, or in case of the analogy
>>>     above, your destination.
>>>   * Gesture (or command) itself: ways of performing that command, or
>>>     using the analogy above, modes of travel.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> *From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Mary
>>> Otten
>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 15, 2019 9:34 PM
>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
>>>
>>> Hi Joseph,
>>> You are probably right that this should be a separate thread.
>>> However, I just want to point out that your whole explanation about
>>> JawsScripps etc. is he relevant to the average user who does not
>>> really care about programming, scripting, etc. The average user wants
>>> to use the screen reader and is not interested in all the stuff that
>>> you talked about in your last message. So when you design an
>>> interface, you need to have the average user in mind. That is the
>>> person who wants to do a task with the computer, not the geek, not
>>> the techie, and not the programmer.  Do you honestly think that the
>>> hundreds of millions of computer users throughout the world, that is
>>> the cited users, would be using computers if they had to deal with
>>> this crap? The answer is no. That’s why they invented the graphic
>>> user interface. It’s easy for sighted people. What blind programmers
>>> and others who want to make screen readers need to do is make the
>>> screen reader interface as friendly as possible for the average
>>> non-techie person.
>>> and that means using plain language where ever possible, even if it
>>> isn’t nice and elegant.g
>>>
>>> Mary
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 15, 2019, at 9:28 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...
>>> <mailto:joseph.lee22590@...>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Hi,
>>>
>>>     I think we should devote a separate thread for it, but to give
>>>     you a short answer:
>>>
>>>     Those of you coming from JAWS scripting world might be familiar
>>>     with the terms “script” and “function”. They are essentially the
>>>     same: both perform something which can be called upon from other
>>>     places. The crucial difference is how it is invoked: a script is
>>>     a function with a piece of input attached.
>>>
>>>     In the same way, NVDA code can define functions (they are really
>>>     Python functions). Just like JAWS scripts, the one difference
>>>     between a function and a script is how you invoke it: you need a
>>>     piece of input to invoke a script (basically a specially tagged
>>>     function), which can call other functions, run other scripts, and
>>>     even kill NVDA (if you want, but don’t try that at home). As long
>>>     as any kind of command is assigned to a script (keyboard command,
>>>     a touchscreen gesture, a braille display hardware button, etc.),
>>>     NVDA will let you perform something. This is why you can assign
>>>     touch commands to keyboard commands and vice versa, because NVDA
>>>     do let you assign (technically called “binding”) all sorts of
>>>     input mechanism for a command (for instance, just as you can use
>>>     keyboard to perform object navigation routines, a set of touch
>>>     swipes has been defined to perform object navigation; in fact,
>>>     these commands call the same routine).
>>>
>>>     Cheers,
>>>
>>>     Joseph
>>>
>>>     *From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>     <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>>>     *Mary Otten
>>>     *Sent:* Friday, February 15, 2019 9:16 PM
>>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
>>>
>>>     Good idea. There is probably some programming thing that gets in
>>>     the way. I hope not though, because it makes very much sense.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     On Feb 15, 2019, at 9:14 PM, Richard Wells <richwels@...
>>>     <mailto:richwels@...>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Why couldn't they be in different preference categories?
>>>         Braille for Braille, Keyboard for Keyboard, Gestures for
>>>         Touch screens and Voice control for Voice control?
>>>
>>>         On 2/15/2019 6:38 PM, Gene wrote:
>>>
>>>             The problem is, what should this array of ways of input
>>>             be called?  Maybe input commands, which would cover
>>>             everything.  This is just one more example of the decline
>>>             of English.  Apps and applications, two different things,
>>>             are used increasingly interchangeably. the language in
>>>             general is becoming less precise and accurate and this is
>>>             just one area.
>>>
>>>             Gene
>>>
>>>             ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>>             *From:*Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@...>
>>>
>>>             *Sent:*Friday, February 15, 2019 6:15 PM
>>>
>>>             *To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>
>>>             *Subject:*Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
>>>
>>>             On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 07:06 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>>
>>>                 Input gestures are more abstract
>>>
>>>             Which is precisely the problem.  Callin something that is
>>>             intimately familiar to the typical end user, and when
>>>             it's currently the only method (regardless of keyboard
>>>             being used), something "more abstract" is not the way to go.
>>>
>>>             The folks at NV Access are far from the only software
>>>             developers to go this route.   Almost every time it's the
>>>             route taken it makes things more opaque to the target
>>>             demographic, which is why it should be avoided in the
>>>             first place.
>>>
>>>             --
>>>
>>>             Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
>>>
>>>             /*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in
>>>             ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.*/
>>>
>>>                       ~ Saul Bellow, /To Jerusalem and Back/
>>>
>
>

 


Re: NVDA and outlook, discussion about columns in message list

 

Tony,

           You're quite welcome.   To be perfectly honest, your reaction to Outlook conversation view is far from the only one that I've seen expressing the same sentiments.  Every time I see it my first desire is to reach out and throttle the person making it.

           Outlook is an incredibly mature product, and probably is the best-supported by screen readers in general.  Most of the time issues are not with Outlook, but with ignorance about how to use it (whether that's getting it to do something you want it to do or stop doing something you don't want it to do).  I didn't even know about the CTRL+Arrow keys and discovered it in response to the questions raised here.  I generally figure that, when it comes to Windows based programs of the age and stature that Outlook has achieved, that there's almost always some keystroke sequence to do virtually anything whether I happen to know what it is or not.  I experimented to find this one, and I also experimented to discover the two-level expansion.  I found that the latter is well documented after having discovered it myself.

             I get, more than you might think, the kind of frustration you had expressed.  But what my years "in the biz" have taught me is that there's generally a solution I don't know about when it seems obvious that a lot of people other than myself would probably be screaming if there weren't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Some mouse navigation questions

Gene
 

I couldn't have said it better myself because I don't understand a word.  (grin)
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Rui Fontes
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

People, excuse the use of portuguese...

Márcio, tal como nós temos as notas de 1 a 5, sendo 5 o melhor, nos
Estados Unidos as notas são de A a F, sendo A o melhor e F o pior...

Rui


Às 08:29 de 16/02/2019, marcio via Groups.Io escreveu:
> Guys I know I'm gonna be too stupid asking something like that and that
> hasn't anything to do with the matter now.
> However, please, what it means "to get an F" in Joseph Lee's message?
> Just gave it a google and found nothing, so...
>
> Cheers,
> Marcio
> Follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/firirinfonfon>
>
> Em 16/02/2019 04:41, Shaun Everiss escreveu:
>>
>> You know, explaining what we do depends on what we know.
>>
>> As a computer geek I find it natural to go flat tack and explain
>> things in technical terms, sometimes I forget to translate back to
>> normal understandable language and find it hard to do so at times.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16/02/2019 6:51 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Ah, I think I see where this is going.
>>>
>>> So if I’m getting this right, I got an F in explaining the whole
>>> thing. This is good news, as it is a validation of a long-standing
>>> issue I had in regards to NVDA’s own documentation set: needs major
>>> overhaul (one of the reasons for creating my audio tutorials in the
>>> first place), and the approach we as developers take to explain how
>>> things work isn’t working. As a person who is serious about
>>> documentation, I take it as a personal failure.
>>>
>>> How about this analogy: think of gestures as roads you take to arrive
>>> at a certain location. Suppose you wish to go from point A to point
>>> B. You can either walk, drive, or fly. It doesn’t matter how you do
>>> it as long as you get to your destination. In the same way, when
>>> doing a command, it doesn’t matter how you do it – either from the
>>> keyboard, a touch gesture, and what not, as long as you get something
>>> from NVDA. Adding, removing, or reassigning gestures (or commands)
>>> can be akin to adding new roads, getting around an obstruction, or
>>> closing off the airspace around the route.
>>>
>>> The things listed in Input Gestures dialog can be thought of as follows:
>>>
>>>   * Categories: all sorts of things you can do with NVDA, categorized
>>>     into different types of tasks.
>>>   * Command descriptions: what NVDA can do, or in case of the analogy
>>>     above, your destination.
>>>   * Gesture (or command) itself: ways of performing that command, or
>>>     using the analogy above, modes of travel.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Joseph
>>>
>>> *From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Mary
>>> Otten
>>> *Sent:* Friday, February 15, 2019 9:34 PM
>>> *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
>>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
>>>
>>> Hi Joseph,
>>> You are probably right that this should be a separate thread.
>>> However, I just want to point out that your whole explanation about
>>> JawsScripps etc. is he relevant to the average user who does not
>>> really care about programming, scripting, etc. The average user wants
>>> to use the screen reader and is not interested in all the stuff that
>>> you talked about in your last message. So when you design an
>>> interface, you need to have the average user in mind. That is the
>>> person who wants to do a task with the computer, not the geek, not
>>> the techie, and not the programmer.  Do you honestly think that the
>>> hundreds of millions of computer users throughout the world, that is
>>> the cited users, would be using computers if they had to deal with
>>> this crap? The answer is no. That’s why they invented the graphic
>>> user interface. It’s easy for sighted people. What blind programmers
>>> and others who want to make screen readers need to do is make the
>>> screen reader interface as friendly as possible for the average
>>> non-techie person.
>>> and that means using plain language where ever possible, even if it
>>> isn’t nice and elegant.g
>>>
>>> Mary
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 15, 2019, at 9:28 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...
>>> <mailto:joseph.lee22590@...>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Hi,
>>>
>>>     I think we should devote a separate thread for it, but to give
>>>     you a short answer:
>>>
>>>     Those of you coming from JAWS scripting world might be familiar
>>>     with the terms “script” and “function”. They are essentially the
>>>     same: both perform something which can be called upon from other
>>>     places. The crucial difference is how it is invoked: a script is
>>>     a function with a piece of input attached.
>>>
>>>     In the same way, NVDA code can define functions (they are really
>>>     Python functions). Just like JAWS scripts, the one difference
>>>     between a function and a script is how you invoke it: you need a
>>>     piece of input to invoke a script (basically a specially tagged
>>>     function), which can call other functions, run other scripts, and
>>>     even kill NVDA (if you want, but don’t try that at home). As long
>>>     as any kind of command is assigned to a script (keyboard command,
>>>     a touchscreen gesture, a braille display hardware button, etc.),
>>>     NVDA will let you perform something. This is why you can assign
>>>     touch commands to keyboard commands and vice versa, because NVDA
>>>     do let you assign (technically called “binding”) all sorts of
>>>     input mechanism for a command (for instance, just as you can use
>>>     keyboard to perform object navigation routines, a set of touch
>>>     swipes has been defined to perform object navigation; in fact,
>>>     these commands call the same routine).
>>>
>>>     Cheers,
>>>
>>>     Joseph
>>>
>>>     *From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>     <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
>>>     *Mary Otten
>>>     *Sent:* Friday, February 15, 2019 9:16 PM
>>>     *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>     *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
>>>
>>>     Good idea. There is probably some programming thing that gets in
>>>     the way. I hope not though, because it makes very much sense.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     On Feb 15, 2019, at 9:14 PM, Richard Wells <richwels@...
>>>     <mailto:richwels@...>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Why couldn't they be in different preference categories?
>>>         Braille for Braille, Keyboard for Keyboard, Gestures for
>>>         Touch screens and Voice control for Voice control?
>>>
>>>         On 2/15/2019 6:38 PM, Gene wrote:
>>>
>>>             The problem is, what should this array of ways of input
>>>             be called?  Maybe input commands, which would cover
>>>             everything.  This is just one more example of the decline
>>>             of English.  Apps and applications, two different things,
>>>             are used increasingly interchangeably. the language in
>>>             general is becoming less precise and accurate and this is
>>>             just one area.
>>>
>>>             Gene
>>>
>>>             ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>>             *From:*Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@...>
>>>
>>>             *Sent:*Friday, February 15, 2019 6:15 PM
>>>
>>>             *To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>>>
>>>             *Subject:*Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions
>>>
>>>             On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 07:06 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
>>>
>>>                 Input gestures are more abstract
>>>
>>>             Which is precisely the problem.  Callin something that is
>>>             intimately familiar to the typical end user, and when
>>>             it's currently the only method (regardless of keyboard
>>>             being used), something "more abstract" is not the way to go.
>>>
>>>             The folks at NV Access are far from the only software
>>>             developers to go this route.   Almost every time it's the
>>>             route taken it makes things more opaque to the target
>>>             demographic, which is why it should be avoided in the
>>>             first place.
>>>
>>>             --
>>>
>>>             Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
>>>
>>>             /*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in
>>>             ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.*/
>>>
>>>                       ~ Saul Bellow, /To Jerusalem and Back/
>>>
>
>



Re: Using PCloud with NVDA

Kliph <kliphnsharrie.sr@...>
 

Really, I use pCloud everyday on my mac and phone, and it gives me no issues what so ever.


Sent from Kliph’s  iPadPro

On Feb 16, 2019, at 12:35 PM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

Wow I have not used PCloud in years. I quit when they made some changes in the app that made it a bare to use, and they didn't get accessibility on the mac even after I showed them perhaps 15 screen caps of what was going on showing them what a screen reader was and pointing them to documentation. IN short, I am not sure really if those of us on windows can relly help.

On 16 Feb 2019, at 9:28, Rich DeSteno wrote:

Is anyone using PCloud with NVDA?  I want to know the best way to save and delete files in PCloud with NVDA.

--
Rich De Steno



Re: NVDA and outlook, discussion about columns in message list

Tony Malykh
 

Brian,

I take my words back about threaded view being unusable. Control+Arrows is indeed what I was looking for - thanks a lot for this suggestion.

--Tony


On 2/14/2019 6:28 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Tony,

          Use CTRL+DOWN/UP arrow to traverse through the message/conversation list if you do not wish to have conversations auto-expand as you're breezing through the message list.   

           If you're using conversation view, the read/unread for a conversation is in regard to the conversation taken as a whole.  If all messages within a conversation are read then the conversation is read.  If any single one or more messages within a conversation are unread, the conversation is considered unread.  As I don't have an unread conversation available at this moment, I can't play with one, but I seem to recall that focus will go to the first unread message in the conversation automatically when it expands, but I could be mistaken about that.  I believe there's a keyboard shortcut for moving to the next/previous read/unread messages, but I'll be darned if I can find it at the moment.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Using PCloud with NVDA

Sarah k Alawami
 

Wow I have not used PCloud in years. I quit when they made some changes in the app that made it a bare to use, and they didn't get accessibility on the mac even after I showed them perhaps 15 screen caps of what was going on showing them what a screen reader was and pointing them to documentation. IN short, I am not sure really if those of us on windows can relly help.

On 16 Feb 2019, at 9:28, Rich DeSteno wrote:

Is anyone using PCloud with NVDA?  I want to know the best way to save and delete files in PCloud with NVDA.

--
Rich De Steno



Re: Some mouse navigation questions

Sarah k Alawami
 

In the us we have a grade scale of a, b, c, d, and f.

A: 100 to 90
b: 89 to 80.
c: 79 to 70
:d: 69 to 60:
f: 50 and below, to 0.

F is a failing grade in the schools here, and when we evaluate ourselves often times we give ourselves failing grades, I do all the time when I evaluate my game play for a tournament, a document I've written, a tech manual I wrote etc.

On 16 Feb 2019, at 0:29, marcio via Groups.Io wrote:

Guys I know I'm gonna be too stupid asking something like that and that hasn't anything to do with the matter now.
However, please, what it means "to get an F" in Joseph Lee's message?
Just gave it a google and found nothing, so...

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter

Em 16/02/2019 04:41, Shaun Everiss escreveu:

You know, explaining what we do depends on what we know.

As a computer geek I find it natural to go flat tack and explain things in technical terms, sometimes I forget to translate back to normal understandable language and find it hard to do so at times.



On 16/02/2019 6:51 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Ah, I think I see where this is going.

So if I’m getting this right, I got an F in explaining the whole thing. This is good news, as it is a validation of a long-standing issue I had in regards to NVDA’s own documentation set: needs major overhaul (one of the reasons for creating my audio tutorials in the first place), and the approach we as developers take to explain how things work isn’t working. As a person who is serious about documentation, I take it as a personal failure.

How about this analogy: think of gestures as roads you take to arrive at a certain location. Suppose you wish to go from point A to point B. You can either walk, drive, or fly. It doesn’t matter how you do it as long as you get to your destination. In the same way, when doing a command, it doesn’t matter how you do it – either from the keyboard, a touch gesture, and what not, as long as you get something from NVDA. Adding, removing, or reassigning gestures (or commands) can be akin to adding new roads, getting around an obstruction, or closing off the airspace around the route.

The things listed in Input Gestures dialog can be thought of as follows:

  • Categories: all sorts of things you can do with NVDA, categorized into different types of tasks.
  • Command descriptions: what NVDA can do, or in case of the analogy above, your destination.
  • Gesture (or command) itself: ways of performing that command, or using the analogy above, modes of travel.

 

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 9:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

Hi Joseph,
You are probably right that this should be a separate thread. However, I just want to point out that your whole explanation about JawsScripps etc. is he relevant to the average user who does not really care about programming, scripting, etc. The average user wants to use the screen reader and is not interested in all the stuff that you talked about in your last message. So when you design an interface, you need to have the average user in mind. That is the person who wants to do a task with the computer, not the geek, not the techie, and not the programmer.  Do you honestly think that the hundreds of millions of computer users throughout the world, that is the cited users, would be using computers if they had to deal with this crap? The answer is no. That’s why they invented the graphic user interface. It’s easy for sighted people. What blind programmers and others who want to make screen readers need to do is make the screen reader interface as friendly as possible for the average non-techie person.
and that means using plain language where ever possible, even if it isn’t nice and elegant.g

Mary

 


On Feb 15, 2019, at 9:28 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:

Hi,

I think we should devote a separate thread for it, but to give you a short answer:

Those of you coming from JAWS scripting world might be familiar with the terms “script” and “function”. They are essentially the same: both perform something which can be called upon from other places. The crucial difference is how it is invoked: a script is a function with a piece of input attached.

In the same way, NVDA code can define functions (they are really Python functions). Just like JAWS scripts, the one difference between a function and a script is how you invoke it: you need a piece of input to invoke a script (basically a specially tagged function), which can call other functions, run other scripts, and even kill NVDA (if you want, but don’t try that at home). As long as any kind of command is assigned to a script (keyboard command, a touchscreen gesture, a braille display hardware button, etc.), NVDA will let you perform something. This is why you can assign touch commands to keyboard commands and vice versa, because NVDA do let you assign (technically called “binding”) all sorts of input mechanism for a command (for instance, just as you can use keyboard to perform object navigation routines, a set of touch swipes has been defined to perform object navigation; in fact, these commands call the same routine).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 9:16 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

Good idea. There is probably some programming thing that gets in the way. I hope not though, because it makes very much sense.



On Feb 15, 2019, at 9:14 PM, Richard Wells <richwels@...> wrote:

Why couldn't they be in different preference categories? Braille for Braille, Keyboard for Keyboard, Gestures for Touch screens and Voice control for Voice control?

On 2/15/2019 6:38 PM, Gene wrote:

The problem is, what should this array of ways of input be called?  Maybe input commands, which would cover everything.  This is just one more example of the decline of English.  Apps and applications, two different things, are used increasingly interchangeably.  the language in general is becoming less precise and accurate and this is just one area.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian Vogel

Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 6:15 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

 

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 07:06 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Input gestures are more abstract

Which is precisely the problem.  Callin something that is intimately familiar to the typical end user, and when it's currently the only method (regardless of keyboard being used), something "more abstract" is not the way to go. 

The folks at NV Access are far from the only software developers to go this route.   Almost every time it's the route taken it makes things more opaque to the target demographic, which is why it should be avoided in the first place.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 



Re: Accessibility tips on this website would be appreciated

greg@...
 

Thank you Shaun.  Just to clarify a bit.  This project is done in HTML5, but there are still bunches of old computers out there that have older graphics cards that are not capable of viewing WebGL content in HTML5.....so this program also has the ability to automatically detect if the flash version is needed.  The flash version is only a "fallback" that is provided as a courtesy for end users with older computers.
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com

Greg@...

865-774-9755


Re: Accessibility tips on this website would be appreciated

greg@...
 

Brian,

Thank you for "cutting to the chase" on my inquiry!  The development platform that I am using is designed to optimize spinning panoramic imagery that provides better context compared to still imagery.....because it allows the viewer to see what is above, behind, below and all around the initial focal point of the image.  What makes the program so appealing to me as a sighted person is that it allows the incorporation of other supporting content....like video and still imagery to be accessed from within the panoramic image.  This requires that a transition element like a button....or several buttons be accessible within the spinning panoramic image.  For right now, there seems to be no easy way to make the transition to these buttons with a screen reader.  So, I have inferred that a good first step in making panoramic projects more screen reader friendly would be to find a way to use key strokes to move from panorama to panorama....where the best description possible tor each panorama is be provided with an alt tag or tooltip.  In the project link that I originally posted http://www.photographyoptions.net/images/degraynew/tour.html I can use the up and down arrows to move through a combobox this lists the different campgrounds and recreation areas, but when I hit the enter key to select one of those areas, I cannot figure out how to use a keystroke to move through the 15 or so individual thumbnail images representing all of the panoramas that I am showing in each of 10 campground / day use areas.  It would then be useful to use a keystroke to find your way back to the combobox menu....so that you could skip around more quickly and find what you are looking for.  In this particular project...In many of the campgrounds, there are specific campsites designed for accessibility located right next to the shower houses that are also designed for accessibility.  I think that this information might be sought by camping enthusiasts on this forum.

Also, thank you for letting me know that Google seems not to have cracked this.  Using NVDA on Google maps, it looks and sounds to me like they have done a pretty good job at facilitating keystroke navigation to every part of their maps....except the imagery in "Photos" and "Streetview."  One of the problems for them is that they allow the general public to put imagery up in these places....and many times there are no captions provided.  My strategy right now is to find a way to enable keystroke navigation through each of the 150 or 200 panoramas that I have in each project, where the screen reader speaks the description.  The next step will be to find away to navigate with keystrokes within each panorama to find the additional content like video and stills that may be available there.

With all of this said.  If anyone out there has been able to reliably access all of the 150 panoramas in my project link and hear the tootips (they are repetitive at this point....only speaking the name of the recreation area,) I would appreciate learning the correct keystrokes to achieve that. 

Brian, thanks again for taking the time to clarify!

Cheers, Greg
 
--
Greg Hosler

www.photographyoptions.com

Greg@...

865-774-9755


Using PCloud with NVDA

Rich DeSteno
 

Is anyone using PCloud with NVDA?  I want to know the best way to save and delete files in PCloud with NVDA.

--
Rich De Steno


Re: say all failing with certain SAPI5 voices

Chris Shook
 

Daniel,
I've had the same issue. It happens the same with the eloquence and Vocalizer voices for NVDA.
Also, you might want to switch to eloquence soft ware when performing a spellcheck on a word document ad the Vocalizer voices only read the first letter of a misspelled word and the suggestions to fix it.


say all failing with certain SAPI5 voices

Daniel Wolak
 

Hi all,

I'm currently attempting to use the sapi5 voices (vocalizer as well as
eloquence) from codfactory sold by atguys. Whilst the only minor problem
with eloquence is certain artefacts with capital letter pitch changes,
every vocalizer voice I've tried to use fails when using say all after
reading several paragraphs. I'm just wondering if anyone's
experienced/found a solution to this?

Running windows10 1809 17763.316 64-bit pro, along with nvda 2018.4.1.


Thanks,


Daniel


System repair disk

Pascal Lambert <coccinelle86@...>
 

Hi,

Is there a way to force the creation of a system repair disk on a USB?

Thanks

Blessings

Pascal


Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Rui,

          What bothers me here, and it is not about you, but about those translators, is that it should be part and parcel of their jobs to obtain the necessary understanding about what it is that's being translated before they translate it.

           Taking the time to consult with the individual or entity requesting the translation at any point when it becomes clear that the material being translated is not adequately understood at a level necessary to do accurate translation is part and parcel of the job.

            I actually know of two here in the US who are screen reader users, but I don't think either "does" Portugese, though I could check if you'd like and put you in contact if desired.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Captcha solving services and NVDA

Mallard
 

It never ever worked for me...

Il 15/02/2019 18:43, Sarah k Alawami ha scritto:

I thought that service went away? I baught some credits but could never ge the add on to work again after last year. Is it back now? I miss that service.

On 15 Feb 2019, at 2:27, Mobeen Iqbal wrote:

Hi. The one I personally use with great success is Rumola, they're
very reasonably priced.

http://skipinput.com/

Very best wishes,

Mo.


Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

Rui Fontes
 

Yes, if I can find a professional translator specialized in assistive technology the result should be good, but at least in Portugal we do not have that...

Rui


Às 15:57 de 16/02/2019, Brian Vogel escreveu:

Rui,
         No criticism of you, but of the "professional" translators you used:  Attempts to do "literal translation" are about as unprofessional as you can get.
         The job of a professional translator, which you are showing yourself to be in this context, is to bring the concept, in as much fullness as possible, across languages.  That often involved very intentional choices to dump literal, word by word or even phrase by phrase translation.  The object is to convey shared understanding, and you're trying to do that admirably.
          Then again, to give professional translators who may be having difficulty here some credit, they're not tech geeks, either.  How would someone who has no idea of what "input gestures" is supposed to convey be able to accurately translate same conceptually?   In order to translate well you have to have some idea of the meaning, not just the written structure, of what it is you're translating.
--
Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
*/A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep./*
          ~ Saul Bellow, /To Jerusalem and Back/


Re: CLARITY OF TERMINOLOGY AND DOCUMENTATION

 

Rui,

         No criticism of you, but of the "professional" translators you used:  Attempts to do "literal translation" are about as unprofessional as you can get.

         The job of a professional translator, which you are showing yourself to be in this context, is to bring the concept, in as much fullness as possible, across languages.  That often involved very intentional choices to dump literal, word by word or even phrase by phrase translation.  The object is to convey shared understanding, and you're trying to do that admirably.

          Then again, to give professional translators who may be having difficulty here some credit, they're not tech geeks, either.  How would someone who has no idea of what "input gestures" is supposed to convey be able to accurately translate same conceptually?   In order to translate well you have to have some idea of the meaning, not just the written structure, of what it is you're translating.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Some mouse navigation questions

 

Oh, muito obrigado! Faz sentido :)
Oh, thanks! Makes sense.

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter

Em 16/02/2019 13:46, Rui Fontes escreveu:

People, excuse the use of portuguese...

Márcio, tal como nós temos as notas de 1 a 5, sendo 5 o melhor, nos Estados Unidos as notas são de A a F, sendo A o melhor e F o pior...

Rui


Às 08:29 de 16/02/2019, marcio via Groups.Io escreveu:
Guys I know I'm gonna be too stupid asking something like that and that hasn't anything to do with the matter now.
However, please, what it means "to get an F" in Joseph Lee's message?
Just gave it a google and found nothing, so...

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/firirinfonfon>

Em 16/02/2019 04:41, Shaun Everiss escreveu:

You know, explaining what we do depends on what we know.

As a computer geek I find it natural to go flat tack and explain things in technical terms, sometimes I forget to translate back to normal understandable language and find it hard to do so at times.



On 16/02/2019 6:51 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Ah, I think I see where this is going.

So if I’m getting this right, I got an F in explaining the whole thing. This is good news, as it is a validation of a long-standing issue I had in regards to NVDA’s own documentation set: needs major overhaul (one of the reasons for creating my audio tutorials in the first place), and the approach we as developers take to explain how things work isn’t working. As a person who is serious about documentation, I take it as a personal failure.

How about this analogy: think of gestures as roads you take to arrive at a certain location. Suppose you wish to go from point A to point B. You can either walk, drive, or fly. It doesn’t matter how you do it as long as you get to your destination. In the same way, when doing a command, it doesn’t matter how you do it – either from the keyboard, a touch gesture, and what not, as long as you get something from NVDA. Adding, removing, or reassigning gestures (or commands) can be akin to adding new roads, getting around an obstruction, or closing off the airspace around the route.

The things listed in Input Gestures dialog can be thought of as follows:

  * Categories: all sorts of things you can do with NVDA, categorized
    into different types of tasks.
  * Command descriptions: what NVDA can do, or in case of the analogy
    above, your destination.
  * Gesture (or command) itself: ways of performing that command, or
    using the analogy above, modes of travel.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joseph

*From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Mary Otten
*Sent:* Friday, February 15, 2019 9:34 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

Hi Joseph,
You are probably right that this should be a separate thread. However, I just want to point out that your whole explanation about JawsScripps etc. is he relevant to the average user who does not really care about programming, scripting, etc. The average user wants to use the screen reader and is not interested in all the stuff that you talked about in your last message. So when you design an interface, you need to have the average user in mind. That is the person who wants to do a task with the computer, not the geek, not the techie, and not the programmer.  Do you honestly think that the hundreds of millions of computer users throughout the world, that is the cited users, would be using computers if they had to deal with this crap? The answer is no. That’s why they invented the graphic user interface. It’s easy for sighted people. What blind programmers and others who want to make screen readers need to do is make the screen reader interface as friendly as possible for the average non-techie person.
and that means using plain language where ever possible, even if it isn’t nice and elegant.g

Mary


On Feb 15, 2019, at 9:28 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@... <mailto:joseph.lee22590@...>> wrote:

    Hi,

    I think we should devote a separate thread for it, but to give
    you a short answer:

    Those of you coming from JAWS scripting world might be familiar
    with the terms “script” and “function”. They are essentially the
    same: both perform something which can be called upon from other
    places. The crucial difference is how it is invoked: a script is
    a function with a piece of input attached.

    In the same way, NVDA code can define functions (they are really
    Python functions). Just like JAWS scripts, the one difference
    between a function and a script is how you invoke it: you need a
    piece of input to invoke a script (basically a specially tagged
    function), which can call other functions, run other scripts, and
    even kill NVDA (if you want, but don’t try that at home). As long
    as any kind of command is assigned to a script (keyboard command,
    a touchscreen gesture, a braille display hardware button, etc.),
    NVDA will let you perform something. This is why you can assign
    touch commands to keyboard commands and vice versa, because NVDA
    do let you assign (technically called “binding”) all sorts of
    input mechanism for a command (for instance, just as you can use
    keyboard to perform object navigation routines, a set of touch
    swipes has been defined to perform object navigation; in fact,
    these commands call the same routine).

    Cheers,

    Joseph

    *From:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
    <nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of
    *Mary Otten
    *Sent:* Friday, February 15, 2019 9:16 PM
    *To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
    *Subject:* Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

    Good idea. There is probably some programming thing that gets in
    the way. I hope not though, because it makes very much sense.



    On Feb 15, 2019, at 9:14 PM, Richard Wells <richwels@...
    <mailto:richwels@...>> wrote:

        Why couldn't they be in different preference categories?
        Braille for Braille, Keyboard for Keyboard, Gestures for
        Touch screens and Voice control for Voice control?

        On 2/15/2019 6:38 PM, Gene wrote:

            The problem is, what should this array of ways of input
            be called?  Maybe input commands, which would cover
            everything.  This is just one more example of the decline
            of English.  Apps and applications, two different things,
            are used increasingly interchangeably. the language in
            general is becoming less precise and accurate and this is
            just one area.

            Gene

            ----- Original Message -----

            *From:*Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@...>

            *Sent:*Friday, February 15, 2019 6:15 PM

            *To:*nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

            *Subject:*Re: [nvda] Some mouse navigation questions

            On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 07:06 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

                Input gestures are more abstract

            Which is precisely the problem.  Callin something that is
            intimately familiar to the typical end user, and when
            it's currently the only method (regardless of keyboard
            being used), something "more abstract" is not the way to go.

            The folks at NV Access are far from the only software
            developers to go this route.   Almost every time it's the
            route taken it makes things more opaque to the target
            demographic, which is why it should be avoided in the
            first place.

            --
            Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

            /*A great deal of intelligence can be invested in
            ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.*/

                      ~ Saul Bellow, /To Jerusalem and Back/