While am currently sticking to open office calc when it comes to working
with things like .xls/.xlsx spreadhseet files, partly since libre office
seemed not to cooperate so nicely with NVDA, just wanted to ask if there
are any specific reasons/methods/means that some of you guys would
recommend one or the other, or another free alternative?


TIA

Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"...resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

Jean,

I think the whole Golden Cursor thing should be in NVDA to be honest.  The ability to move the mouse using the keyboard has been in screen readers, since the invention of Windows.

Supernova has it, System Access has it, JAWS has it, Window-Eyes was best at it, and so on.

All the best

Steve

Hi,

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

All the best

Steve

--

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Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: steve@...

Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk

How many systems did you try this on? You have no basis to assume UIA is
the problem. One person, telling you about a problem they have means
nothing. the person may be making errors, or there may be some other
problem. I have never, on all the lists I'm on, in all the time since
Windows 7 and Windows 10- have been out, heard the complaint you are making,
that there is a general behavior that causes incorrect items to be opened.

Try the following:
Open the start menu.
Type date and time
and wait a moment.
Read the current line. Is it what you are looking for? If so, press
enter.
If not, down arrow until you find what you want. Press enter.

Usually, in Windows 7, when you are looking for something and you know what
you are looking for, opening Control Panel is unnecessary.

And we don't know if Control Panel is set up properly on your machine to
work as you expect with first letter navigation.

Try the procedure I gave and see what happens. We don't know why you are
having the problem. Turning off a part of Windows isn't the proper way to
find out what the problem is and it won't solve it if it is caused by
something else such as not having Control panel set properly to do what you
want.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: zahra
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 1:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA


no, i am sure that i never experienced such problems on xp.
even someone with windows ten, asked me that i want to open something
and when i opened my desire, i observed openning another item.
for example: when openning skype, she observes that firefox opens for her!
if i turn off uia, can i use windows 7 without any slowness or
openning undesired item?
yes, i tested openning items of control panel, when i use first letter
of my desired item, sometimes i can easily open anything that i wish
and sometimes i recieved undesired behaviour like the time which i
want to open date and time which i explaned.

On 2/17/19, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:

Your second problem is not a general probem. you are approaching Windows
7
with a bias against it that it can't be as good as XP, probably
significantly inferior so you assume that every problem is the fault of
Windows 7. It could be a problem with the specific system being used. I
explained how to stop the slower echo when you move through a list of
files.
Windows 7 wouldn't be as popular as it is among blind users if it had a
lot
of problems. it is a mistake to disable a feature to avoid certain
problems
when the results will be unknown other problems, without properly
evaluating
Windows 7 and asking here about problems you encounter. If you really
evaluate Windows 7 and ask about problems here, you may still want to
turn
off UIA, but you have no basis at this time to have an informed opinion.
Did you try opening time and date more than once? One malfunction, if
that
is what it was, doesn't tell us anything. Odd behaviors happen from time
to
time. If it happened in XP, you wouldn't conclude anything because you
aren't biased against it.

\Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: zahra
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 12:35 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA


hi gene.
yes, one of the problems is slowness of nvda in file explorer and i
wish that when i navigate between items, i recieve feedback without
any pause!
but i heard from someone that the problems of newer windows versions
are because of uia and i decided to turn it off completely to use
windows 7 like windows xp without any slowness!
but slowness was not only problem for me.
when i wanted to open one item in control panel, i observed openning
undesired item.
for example: i went to the control panel to set the clock or calendar
of my system.
i pressed d and nvda told: date and time.
when i pressed enter to open it, nvda told action center security
instead of date and times and its options.
i dont have any of these issues on xp and got this result that msaa is
the best version of accessibility and made me hating uia.

On 2/16/19, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:

Before you pursue the matter further, what benefit do you think you will
get? And you don't know what benefits you will lose. I haven't seen
any
disadvantages that amount to anything in Windows 7. I get a little
slower
echoing of titles when I move up or down in the files list in Windows
Explorer or the desktop. My solution is to hold control as I move.
When
I
get to something I want to open, I release control, down arrow once, up
arrow once to the item, then press enter. Holding control while moving
keeps files from being selected as you move to them. That solves the
slow
echo problem.

If you want to turn it off because you have heard this or that
complaint,
such complaints may not be general problems. you shouldn't have
preconceptions based on such poor, perhaps meaningless, in terms of
generalization, evidence. And, as I said, you don't know what benefits
you
may not get by turning it off.

Don't let your XP bias lead you toward jumping to conclucions about
Windows
7. It is a popular version of Windows among blind users.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: zahra
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 11:54 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA


hi.
thanks for replying me.
how can i modify configuration file?
i wish to turn off uia in windows 7 if one day i can access a system
with windows 7 and just use msaa on windows 7 like windows xp!
i someday tried windows 7 and i was unsatisfied of uia and wish to
have msaa forever.

On 2/16/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,
You can sort of do this (modifying the configuration file), though I
can't
guarantee if that will resolve all sorts of problems you may encounter
as
a
result. For instance, although certain Windows Explorer features may
become
more "usable", it may not solve some problems you might be having.
Also, on a personal note, I wouldn't really count on going back to
Windows
XP days, or for that matter, use that as a justification for turning
off
an
accessibility API. As noted by at least two resident screen reader
trainers
(Gene and Brian), for all practical purposes, it would be wise to move
on
from XP if trying to perform certain productivity and web browsing
tasks
(XP
was a massive target of a ransomware in 2017). Thus, personally, the
request
to consider turning off UIA in favor of MSAA just because of appearance
of
stability under XP is hereby denied (sorry; I do know it will come as
not
the answer you are looking for, but there's nothing I and other NVDA
developers can do now).
Cheers,
Joseph


-----Original Message---


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of zahra
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 8:34 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA

hi joseph.
i have a question about uia.
can you please teach me how to disable uia in windows 7 if one day i
decided
to use windows 7 or use a computer of someone who uses windows 7?
i wish to disable uia in windows 7 and configure nvda to use msaa on
windows
7 as nvda uses msaa on windows xp.
i really need this change and i am waiting for your help, God bless
you!

On 2/16/19, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

At least to answer Robert’s question through this one: no, it won’t be
enabled by default, as NVDA developers and some testers found bugs and
regressions with UIA on.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Devin
Prater
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 5:17 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Using Office Products with UIA



I agree, this makes reading even complex word documents as quick as
reading a mere Notepad window, making Word actually enjoyable to use.
I hope that all other Office programs start using this too.


Devin Pratersent from Gmail.





On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 6:17 AM Robert Kingett <kingettr@gmail.com
<mailto:kingettr@gmail.com> > wrote:

If this will become a much wanted method of interacting with word, and
since Microsoft will continue making better support, shouldn't this be
on by default after1901?

--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali

--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali

--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali

--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali

I still don’t like it, however much you try to justify dictionary hacks.  Eventually you exclude loads of words, then it becomes more work.

All the best

Steve

That’s more hard work though, as well as concentrating on the text itself for mistakes, I’d say.

All the best

Steve

But how would they know the word was missing, if the synth didn’t utter anything?

All the best

Steve

Hi Jean,

What happens then if you come across the word graphic in a document?  Does it just get missed out?  That would make it awkward for proofing.  I don’t like using dictionaries as a cludge if I’m honest.

All the best

Steve

Amen!

You sure cannot do that much with the mouse with JAWS.

I said that by the way about the Golden Cursor doing much more than the mouse feature in JAWS, and it is just a fact if one would read the documentation for Golden Cursor!

David Moore

                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 02:58 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

Well, it can come in really, really handy for being able to activate unlabeled controls, repeatedly, in programs one might not otherwise be able to access.

I've helped someone who really needed to be able to use a program that was, for all intents and purpose, completely inaccessible get through it for their intended purposes just because they could do the equivalent of "point and click" on the controls once we'd worked together to locate them on a fully maximized window for that program.  Admittedly, my sight was necessary for the setup phase, but it made it possible to use this antique thing they had to be able to use as they only needed to be able to activate two controls (and I don't recall the details at this point).

There are different kinds of accessibility, and while this certainly isn't complete in any meaningful sense it certainly is functional within the context.  I've recommended programs that are not 100% accessible but where the function of focus is because it's only that function I intend the client to use it for, and the program is particularly good at it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 17 February 2019 23:14
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] column titles in Excel

I generally find the easiest thing to do is to actually assign formal row and/or column titles as part of the spreadsheet itself.

See: Excel - Assigning a Title Row or Column (MS-Word Format)
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

Hi Brian,

So it looks like my ignorance was justified to some extent. I was so sure that threaded view was unusable because I did my own research on the Internet and didn't find any information about Control+Up/Down arrows. I actually don't remember finding any article about using Outlook with NVDA. This is a stark contrast with Thunderbird - NVAcces has an excellent tutorial on using Thunderbird with NVDA:

http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/accessible%20email%20client%20mozilla%20thunderbird.html

This tutorial also mentions something like "Thunderbird is the most accessible email client to work with NVDA". I don't mean to start email client war, I'm just saying that, because I was primed by this tutorial. And there is no alternative tutorial for NVDA+Outlook - or is there?

The only thing I found is an official accessibility guide for Outlook from Microsoft:

https://support.office.com/en-us/article/keyboard-shortcuts-for-navigating-mail-in-outlook-ca79fe45-80e5-47dd-b7a0-841d4711ed53

That mentiones Control+Up/Down shortcuts, but the function that they perform is called: "Select multiple non-adjacent messages". Who would've thought.

Anyway, it seems to me that there is some demand for a good tutorial on how to use NVDA with Outlook. Even though I still personally prefer Thunderbird at this point, it is always a good idea to have an alternative. Especially, it seems to me that Thunderbird development slows down these days (Mozilla no longer supports them and they are asking for donations more and more aggressively), and a couple of years down the road we might have to switch to Outlook as the only viable option.

--Tony

Tony,

           You're quite welcome.   To be perfectly honest, your reaction to Outlook conversation view is far from the only one that I've seen expressing the same sentiments.  Every time I see it my first desire is to reach out and throttle the person making it.

           Outlook is an incredibly mature product, and probably is the best-supported by screen readers in general.  Most of the time issues are not with Outlook, but with ignorance about how to use it (whether that's getting it to do something you want it to do or stop doing something you don't want it to do).  I didn't even know about the CTRL+Arrow keys and discovered it in response to the questions raised here.  I generally figure that, when it comes to Windows based programs of the age and stature that Outlook has achieved, that there's almost always some keystroke sequence to do virtually anything whether I happen to know what it is or not.  I experimented to find this one, and I also experimented to discover the two-level expansion.  I found that the latter is well documented after having discovered it myself.

             I get, more than you might think, the kind of frustration you had expressed.  But what my years "in the biz" have taught me is that there's generally a solution I don't know about when it seems obvious that a lot of people other than myself would probably be screaming if there weren't.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:25
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 02:58 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

Well, it can come in really, really handy for being able to activate unlabeled controls, repeatedly, in programs one might not otherwise be able to access.

I've helped someone who really needed to be able to use a program that was, for all intents and purpose, completely inaccessible get through it for their intended purposes just because they could do the equivalent of "point and click" on the controls once we'd worked together to locate them on a fully maximized window for that program.  Admittedly, my sight was necessary for the setup phase, but it made it possible to use this antique thing they had to be able to use as they only needed to be able to activate two controls (and I don't recall the details at this point).

There are different kinds of accessibility, and while this certainly isn't complete in any meaningful sense it certainly is functional within the context.  I've recommended programs that are not 100% accessible but where the function of focus is because it's only that function I intend the client to use it for, and the program is particularly good at it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

A lot of us get this from time to time. I have set up an iImap account so I can see the spam folder on my email providers servers. I then move spam to inbox when its appropriate and that then gets delivered to my pop3 service with the message sorting rules for my offline folders.
It seems to happen due to the way isps tend to  give scores to emails with regard to number coming from a source, sub line wording and repetition and listed on black list type servers sending the mail. You can often see the scores in the headers.
I would have thought they could avoid it by  not checking mail from a list, but I guess spammers would then spoof the headers to get to the final recipient. Sigh.
Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "marcio via Groups.Io" <marcinhorj21@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Just testing

Hi, the reason for this test is, I received an email just now telling me
that one my emails was marked as spam and I should try to subscribe
again after 7 days.
As it clearly was a mistake, I'm sending to the lists that I'm into test
emails to see if I keep on there.

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/firirinfonfon>

Em 17/02/2019 16:25, marcio via Groups.Io escreveu:

-- 

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/firirinfonfon>

Hi,

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

All the best

Steve

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

Email: steve@...

Web: http://www.comproom.co.uk