Date   

Re: Golden Cursor question

JM Casey
 

I really don’t know why abbreviation-expanding is a voice synthesizer specific thing, but for some reason, it is, or at least, that’s been my experience. I’m using JAWS with Eloquence at this precise moment and I think it leaves most of them alone, but Vocalizer expands everything, sometimes with weird and very undesirable results.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Travis Siegel
Sent: February 21, 2019 11:39 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

It's always been my opinion that it's a screen reader's job to read the screen, it's my job to interpret what the screen reader tells me is there.  That means, if there's a graphic, the screen reader should tell me it's there, if there's an icon, the screen reader should tell me it's there.  The screen reader should read exactly what's there, and nothing else.  I can't tell you how many hours of productivity time I've lost from stupid little things like my screen reader telling me something was on the screen, when it wasn't actually there.  For example, the voiceover screen reader (and I think NVDA does as well) says volume, regardless of whether the entire word is there or not.  You know, sometimes, vol by itself does not mean volume.  This is of course a minor example of the screen reader saying something that isn't there, but you get the idea.  If the screen says v o l, then the screen reader should say v o l, not volume.  I understand that most folks do not agree with me on this, but it irks the hell out of me when screen readers say things that aren't there, especially when trying to find sorted file lists, One time I had magazine issues that were named differently from the publisher, depending on what year it was published.  I spent a good 10 minutes once trying to figure out why volume 2 issue 1 was out of order, and it turns out the reason was because the screen reader was reading vol as volume, but the publisher didn't spell out volume, only put the 3 letters vol, which changed the sorting order of that particular issue, since the rest of them had volume actually spelled out.  Odd, but there it is.  That was 10 minutes that didn't need to be wasted, because if the screen reader had just read what was on the screen, it would have been immediately apparent what the problem was, and it could have been easily corrected.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I say I've lost hours of productivity due to stupid little things that the screen reader read that didn't exist.

Although I reported it, and it (eventually) got fixed, at one point, when beta testing voiceover on the mac, the screen reader said the dinosaur Stegosaurus as Saint Ego Soars.  Again, a case of not reading what's on the screen, and one that should not have even occurred based on pronunciation rules built in to the screen reader, but these are the kinds of things that happen when your screen readers try to interpret things for you.  I don't like it, and I think it's a waste of time.  It wastes the user's time, and it wastes the developer's time, because they have to put in all the rules that create the speaking rules.  Just leave it alone, and let the damned thing read what's present, let me interpret what it all means.

On 2/20/2019 7:44 AM, Gene wrote:

That's two different questions.  changing the format may be a problem at times, when dealing with sighted people as you say.  but the solution isn't to have the screen-reader not do what it does.  the solution is to teach blind people to find what they are looking for on the page without being reliant on sighted people's instructions.  for example, if the sighted person tells the person that add to cart is in the middle of the page, a little up from the center, an efficient way for a blind person to find it is to disregard the description.  Go to the top of the page and use the screen-reader's find command to search for add to cart or for cart or whatever you want that is expected to find the thing efficiently if the search can be done efficiently.

 

I may find it interesting when a wwell-intentioned sighted person tells me where he/she sees something on the screen.  I don't use the description to find the item.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I disagree.  Changing the layout is interpreting of course it is.  It’s saying well here’s the info, in the format we think is right, not in the visual format.

 

Whether you like it or not, that is interpreting and becomes sometimes, a problem when interacting with sighted people.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 20 February 2019 10:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Changing the layout isn't interpreting.  Interpreting is when you do something like describe something in the screen-reader's own words.  But this doesn't change what is read.  It is changing the layout to make reading logical for blind people.  There is nothing wrong with this.  it has been done with great success since MSAA was introduced in the late Nineties for reading web pages efficiently.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 2:57 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Of course they are interpreting.  It reads the screen, but UIA changes the perceived layout of the screen.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What you are complaining about isn't screen interpreting.  it is a decision about what information is included and how you can move through it.  You may disagree with such decisions, but they aren't screen interpreting. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 12:30 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

OK, incorrect in so much that you can move the mouse, but only by routing it.

 

Window-Eyes could not only move by clip, but by graphic as well, this is really powerful.

 

If you told me to click on the third graphic from the top left on the screen, only Window-Eyes would allow me to do this.

 

Whatever happened to screen reading, as opposed to screen interpreting?  Don’t even get me started.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 16:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I know that Window-eyes and JAWS have ways of moving the mouse such as by pixels and in the case of Window-eyes, in some other way that I don't recall now, sort of by structure.  I remembered the term while reviewing my message.  it is by clip, as Window-eyes called it.  But both also allow for moving the mouse around the screen as you do in NVDA.  The difference is that in NVDA, you move the review position, then route the mouse to where you stop the review navigator. 

 

In JAWS, you could move the mouse to the word click.  In NVDA, you would move the review navigator to the word click, then route the mouse.  the mouse ends up in the same place.  I'm simply saying that your statement that the mouse can't be moved from the keyboard in NVDA is factually, not a matter of opinion, not correct.  I am not disagreeing that JAWS and
Window-eyes allow for different, more precise movements.  I'm also not arguing that the Golden Cursor add-on is necessary in NVDA to move the mouse in finer and more varied ways.  But your statement is factually incorrect. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 9:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi Jean,

 

But again, although you answered my question, it just proves to me that I couldn’t find what I wanted, because it is not there, that is moving the mouse using the keyboard.  This is there, if you download Golden Cursor, but I’ve had this in Window-Eyes for years, so I couldn’t imagine managing without it now.  It even exists in JAWS.  Even mouse search doesn’t currently exist in NVDA, so to me, this isn’t screen reading at its best at the moment.  That’s only to me, remember, just one guy who is an advanced screen reader user, and in that respect, as I’ve always said, NVDA, isn’t there yet.  I wish it would be.

 

Another example of this problem is the Izotope plug in installer.  NVDA doesn’t see the screen at all, nothing is read, so you have to OCR it.  When I install with JAWS, it sees the screen, and I can move the mouse to the Next button, but I can’t click it by tabbing nor object naving to it, because NVDA simply doesn’t see the screen, unless I OCR it.  JAWS sees it out of the box.  This is why I still maintain that video hooking is a necessary evil.

 

I know now that many programs use UIA now, so it’s less important, but the ability to manipulate the mouse via the keyboard, is still much needed when using custom apps.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 17:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

In the following response, I shall give desktop layout commands.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know those commands for what we are discussing.

 

There aren't specifically mouse movement keys such as in JAWS.  Read the review section of the manual or the relevant parts.  5.5 is a relevant section.  I'm not sure if there are any others.  You will see such commands as num[pad 9, move to next line, numpad 8, read current line, numpad 7 move to and read previous line.  These are review keys and don't affect the application, they review the screen.  I'm talking about what they do in screen review mode.  They have similar functions when in object navigation but they apply to the object that has focus.

 

To move the mouse to the review position, use the command numpad insert numpad slash.  To left click the mouse, use numpad slash. To right click, use numpad Times, which I believe is also the asterisk.  It's immediately to the right of numpad slash.  

 

If you can't find how to do something in NVDA, it is not good methodology or procedure to assume that it can't be done.  Asking here may provide information about how to do it or of an add-on that does.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 4:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hello Jean,

 

So what are the mouse movement keys via the keyboard then?  I’m sorry I can’t find them.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 08:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

You can move the mouse with the keyboard now.  You can't move it as precisely.  I don't have an opinion about whether the Golden Cursor features should be incorporated into the source code.  But your implication that the mouse can't be moved without the Golden Cursor is not correct.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 2:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Jean,

 

I think the whole Golden Cursor thing should be in NVDA to be honest.  The ability to move the mouse using the keyboard has been in screen readers, since the invention of Windows.

 

Supernova has it, System Access has it, JAWS has it, Window-Eyes was best at it, and so on.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

The search feature should, I think, be in NVDA, not in the Golden Cursor. This is important funcionality and is too important to depend on a user downloading an add-on to have it available.

 

Gene 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

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Re: CTRL-C doesn't work for copying text when NVDA is on

 

While it's very handy to be able to cut a ton of text to the clipboard, and I have on occasion, the idea of having multi-page document length clipboard contents read back from the clipboard would be maddening.

I agree with Chris Mullins that if one is planning to work with really large blocks of text it makes a lot more sense to open either Notepad instances, if formatting need not be preserved, just text, or Word (or whatever word processor you use) instances if there's formatting that must be preserved.   It not only allows for skimming but jumping from beginning of a large chunk to the end, very quickly, to ensure you have what you thought you had.  If you've got to do this for several non-contiguous chunks it also makes it easier to get them all, check them all, then move on to pasting them in elsewhere, knowing you have exactly what you want.

Tools to task, and all that . . .
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A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

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Re: CTRL-C doesn't work for copying text when NVDA is on

Chris Mullins
 

Hi
When you have a large amount of text on the clipboard, if it could speak it back to you , it will only relay it serially, which means you have to listen to it from the beginning each time. Why not open a scratch notepad file, paste in the clipboard contents, then you can at least skim through wat is there before you paste into your target document. Remember, pasting does not remove the clipboard contents.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of zahra
Sent: 21 February 2019 17:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CTRL-C doesn't work for copying text when NVDA is on

unfortunately nvda does not announce the content which i copied if its
more than 1000 or 1024 characters.

On 2/21/19, Roger Stewart <paganus2@...> wrote:
This is already built into nvda. Just use nvda key plus C and if there
is actually anything copied into the clipboard, it will be spoken.
Roger











On 2/21/2019 2:58 AM, zahra wrote:
hi gene.
is there any solution that i can set nvda to read clipboard regardless
of is the text is long or not?
i believe nvda cant read more than 1000 or 1024 characters, but i wish
to have a solution that nvda can reads anything in the clipboard, even
i want to select and copy a large book with hundreds of pages.
in this case, i can simply overcome the problem of not supporting
sayAll in libreoffice.
i can copy and peist my document in firefox or there is one option in
libreoffice that i can temporarily open my document and read in
firefox which has supporting for sayAll, but i need openning two
programs at the same time, one libreoffice and one another program,
firefox, which cause more system usage and power consumpsion.
thanks for any of your help, God bless you!

On 2/20/19, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
The way to do it is to incorporate the add-on that announces this into
the
source of the program or modify it and place it in source. or if
desired,
though it is probably redeveloping the weel, developing the ability
independently in the screen-reader. A lot of users will never know
about
the add-on.

The designers and developers refuse to do so, last I knew, because of
the
claim, incorrect, that the announcement of when text is copied, cut, or
pasted, cannot be reliably known for screen-readers. I have stated
before,
from years of use with JAWS and I know that System Access does as well,
that
this can be accurately done. The add-on, is usually accurate as well.
I'm
not sure if it is every single time but I have never or almost never seen
an
error after something like eight months or more of regular use.

Perhaps others verifying this would finally convince developers that
this
can be accurately done. This is an important ability and should be
added
yesterday..
From: Jackie
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 11:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CTRL-C doesn't work for copying text when NVDA is on


Well, weirdly enough, it does do this in Firefox, but not in Word,
Notepad, etc. They really should make that consistent, & they should
make it suchvvv that announcement could be toggled on/off as desired.

On 2/20/19, marcio via Groups.Io <marcinhorj21@...>
wrote:
I can confirm that, at least without an add-on to do it, NVDA doesn't
announce anything when we perform such operations (cut, copy, paste
etc.).
What did you do to have these announcements?

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/firirinfonfon>

Em 20/02/2019 14:13, Jackie escreveu:
It does announce "copy to clipboard".

On 2/20/19, Roger Stewart <paganus2@...> wrote:
I've been using NVDA since 2012 and never had this problem. However,
NVDA will not announce anything like "copied to clipboard" so you
might
not think anything has happened, but it does still work normally.
When
you paste the text, you'll find it all worked.
Roger











On 2/20/2019 10:54 AM, Ryan Boudwin wrote:
Hey everyone,

I recently swapped from JAWS to NVDA because it seems to work better
for me for certain web applications that I use for work.

However, whenever NVDA is running I have noticed that CTRL-C no
longer
works for copying text to the clipboard.

Has anyone else ever had this problem? Is there a command I need to
bind to a different keystroke to make the normal copy functionality
work again? It works normally whenever NVDA is not running.

Best regards,

Ryan Boudwin




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Re: Golden Cursor question

 

On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 12:32 PM, Steve Nutt wrote:
Neither JAWS nor NVDA really let the sighted person know where the focus is at any given moment.  So screen readers are really interpreters.
Neither does (or did, I can't recall right now if JAWS has changed this) by default.   The first thing I do if I'm working with someone using NVDA is to have them install the Focus Highlight add-on, which is absolutely fabulous in terms of not only keeping the screen and virtual cursor locations in sync, but letting you know what state NVDA is in for the object it currently has focus on (and I don't mean object navigation here - I mean appropriate to the thing it has got focus on).

JAWS added a similar feature, and I've used it, but it is not quite as sophisticated as the Focus Highlight add-on of NVDA.

As far as I'm concerned, this sort of feature should be configurable but the default configuration should be ON.   I have never noticed any difference in responsiveness when it is activated, and if an individual ever anticipates having a sighted assistant for any purpose having the screen and the screen reader track each other is absolutely, positively vital.
 
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Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Golden Cursor question

Sarah k Alawami
 

Agreed. Looks like him and his snarky comments are back. I do interact with the sighted almost daily so yeah. I agree with you travis.

On 21 Feb 2019, at 9:33, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi Travis,

 

I don’t think Jean either interacts with sighted people and computers, or he doesn’t know what interpreting means.  One of the two.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Travis Siegel
Sent: 21 February 2019 17:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What are you talking about in saying my comments aren't precise?

I said exactly what I meant, if that isn't precise enough for you, then go bother someone else with trivial matters.  If you can't get enough context from my comments to make intelligent responses, then don't respond, simple as that.

On 2/21/2019 11:44 AM, Gene wrote:

Expanding abbreviations is the problem of the synthesizer, not the screen-reader.  And what do you mean by your other comments?  they are not precise nor do they take context into account.  Do you use all punctuation all the time?  Do you want to hear every punctuation mark announced?  I doubt it.  Right there, you are violating your first statement of what a screen-reader should do. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 10:38 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

It's always been my opinion that it's a screen reader's job to read the screen, it's my job to interpret what the screen reader tells me is there.  That means, if there's a graphic, the screen reader should tell me it's there, if there's an icon, the screen reader should tell me it's there.  The screen reader should read exactly what's there, and nothing else.  I can't tell you how many hours of productivity time I've lost from stupid little things like my screen reader telling me something was on the screen, when it wasn't actually there.  For example, the voiceover screen reader (and I think NVDA does as well) says volume, regardless of whether the entire word is there or not.  You know, sometimes, vol by itself does not mean volume.  This is of course a minor example of the screen reader saying something that isn't there, but you get the idea.  If the screen says v o l, then the screen reader should say v o l, not volume.  I understand that most folks do not agree with me on this, but it irks the hell out of me when screen readers say things that aren't there, especially when trying to find sorted file lists, One time I had magazine issues that were named differently from the publisher, depending on what year it was published.  I spent a good 10 minutes once trying to figure out why volume 2 issue 1 was out of order, and it turns out the reason was because the screen reader was reading vol as volume, but the publisher didn't spell out volume, only put the 3 letters vol, which changed the sorting order of that particular issue, since the rest of them had volume actually spelled out.  Odd, but there it is.  That was 10 minutes that didn't need to be wasted, because if the screen reader had just read what was on the screen, it would have been immediately apparent what the problem was, and it could have been easily corrected.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I say I've lost hours of productivity due to stupid little things that the screen reader read that didn't exist.

Although I reported it, and it (eventually) got fixed, at one point, when beta testing voiceover on the mac, the screen reader said the dinosaur Stegosaurus as Saint Ego Soars.  Again, a case of not reading what's on the screen, and one that should not have even occurred based on pronunciation rules built in to the screen reader, but these are the kinds of things that happen when your screen readers try to interpret things for you.  I don't like it, and I think it's a waste of time.  It wastes the user's time, and it wastes the developer's time, because they have to put in all the rules that create the speaking rules.  Just leave it alone, and let the damned thing read what's present, let me interpret what it all means.

On 2/20/2019 7:44 AM, Gene wrote:

That's two different questions.  changing the format may be a problem at times, when dealing with sighted people as you say.  but the solution isn't to have the screen-reader not do what it does.  the solution is to teach blind people to find what they are looking for on the page without being reliant on sighted people's instructions.  for example, if the sighted person tells the person that add to cart is in the middle of the page, a little up from the center, an efficient way for a blind person to find it is to disregard the description.  Go to the top of the page and use the screen-reader's find command to search for add to cart or for cart or whatever you want that is expected to find the thing efficiently if the search can be done efficiently.

 

I may find it interesting when a wwell-intentioned sighted person tells me where he/she sees something on the screen.  I don't use the description to find the item.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I disagree.  Changing the layout is interpreting of course it is.  It’s saying well here’s the info, in the format we think is right, not in the visual format.

 

Whether you like it or not, that is interpreting and becomes sometimes, a problem when interacting with sighted people.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 20 February 2019 10:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Changing the layout isn't interpreting.  Interpreting is when you do something like describe something in the screen-reader's own words.  But this doesn't change what is read.  It is changing the layout to make reading logical for blind people.  There is nothing wrong with this.  it has been done with great success since MSAA was introduced in the late Nineties for reading web pages efficiently.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 2:57 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Of course they are interpreting.  It reads the screen, but UIA changes the perceived layout of the screen.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What you are complaining about isn't screen interpreting.  it is a decision about what information is included and how you can move through it.  You may disagree with such decisions, but they aren't screen interpreting. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 12:30 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

OK, incorrect in so much that you can move the mouse, but only by routing it.

 

Window-Eyes could not only move by clip, but by graphic as well, this is really powerful.

 

If you told me to click on the third graphic from the top left on the screen, only Window-Eyes would allow me to do this.

 

Whatever happened to screen reading, as opposed to screen interpreting?  Don’t even get me started.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 16:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I know that Window-eyes and JAWS have ways of moving the mouse such as by pixels and in the case of Window-eyes, in some other way that I don't recall now, sort of by structure.  I remembered the term while reviewing my message.  it is by clip, as Window-eyes called it.  But both also allow for moving the mouse around the screen as you do in NVDA.  The difference is that in NVDA, you move the review position, then route the mouse to where you stop the review navigator. 

 

In JAWS, you could move the mouse to the word click.  In NVDA, you would move the review navigator to the word click, then route the mouse.  the mouse ends up in the same place.  I'm simply saying that your statement that the mouse can't be moved from the keyboard in NVDA is factually, not a matter of opinion, not correct.  I am not disagreeing that JAWS and
Window-eyes allow for different, more precise movements.  I'm also not arguing that the Golden Cursor add-on is necessary in NVDA to move the mouse in finer and more varied ways.  But your statement is factually incorrect. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 9:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi Jean,

 

But again, although you answered my question, it just proves to me that I couldn’t find what I wanted, because it is not there, that is moving the mouse using the keyboard.  This is there, if you download Golden Cursor, but I’ve had this in Window-Eyes for years, so I couldn’t imagine managing without it now.  It even exists in JAWS.  Even mouse search doesn’t currently exist in NVDA, so to me, this isn’t screen reading at its best at the moment.  That’s only to me, remember, just one guy who is an advanced screen reader user, and in that respect, as I’ve always said, NVDA, isn’t there yet.  I wish it would be.

 

Another example of this problem is the Izotope plug in installer.  NVDA doesn’t see the screen at all, nothing is read, so you have to OCR it.  When I install with JAWS, it sees the screen, and I can move the mouse to the Next button, but I can’t click it by tabbing nor object naving to it, because NVDA simply doesn’t see the screen, unless I OCR it.  JAWS sees it out of the box.  This is why I still maintain that video hooking is a necessary evil.

 

I know now that many programs use UIA now, so it’s less important, but the ability to manipulate the mouse via the keyboard, is still much needed when using custom apps.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 17:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

In the following response, I shall give desktop layout commands.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know those commands for what we are discussing.

 

There aren't specifically mouse movement keys such as in JAWS.  Read the review section of the manual or the relevant parts.  5.5 is a relevant section.  I'm not sure if there are any others.  You will see such commands as num[pad 9, move to next line, numpad 8, read current line, numpad 7 move to and read previous line.  These are review keys and don't affect the application, they review the screen.  I'm talking about what they do in screen review mode.  They have similar functions when in object navigation but they apply to the object that has focus.

 

To move the mouse to the review position, use the command numpad insert numpad slash.  To left click the mouse, use numpad slash. To right click, use numpad Times, which I believe is also the asterisk.  It's immediately to the right of numpad slash.  

 

If you can't find how to do something in NVDA, it is not good methodology or procedure to assume that it can't be done.  Asking here may provide information about how to do it or of an add-on that does.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 4:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hello Jean,

 

So what are the mouse movement keys via the keyboard then?  I’m sorry I can’t find them.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 08:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

You can move the mouse with the keyboard now.  You can't move it as precisely.  I don't have an opinion about whether the Golden Cursor features should be incorporated into the source code.  But your implication that the mouse can't be moved without the Golden Cursor is not correct.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 2:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Jean,

 

I think the whole Golden Cursor thing should be in NVDA to be honest.  The ability to move the mouse using the keyboard has been in screen readers, since the invention of Windows.

 

Supernova has it, System Access has it, JAWS has it, Window-Eyes was best at it, and so on.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

The search feature should, I think, be in NVDA, not in the Golden Cursor. This is important funcionality and is too important to depend on a user downloading an add-on to have it available.

 

Gene 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

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Re: Golden Cursor question

Gene
 

I won't get into a debate with you about the meaning of interpretation or interpreter.  those who may have more credibility with you may wish to comment.  it isn't the main point in the first place. 
 
I have no objection to a screen-reader showing a sighted person where the virtual cursor is, but I consider that a teaching aid, not a practical way to wortk with sighted people. 
 
If I'm talking with a sighted person and they tell me that something is on the right of the screen, I find that interesting but useless.  I use the find command to find whatever it is.  Even if a screen-reader shows the sighted person where the virtual cursor is, that doesn't mean the sighted person will be able to tell you how to find it.  you have to use the techniques you use when you browse yourself.  the find command is one of the most underused and best commands to do this in situations such as we are talking about.  if a sighted person tells you that add to card is halfway down the page, the efficient way for a blind person to find it is not to use that information.  The efficient way is to start at the top of the page and use the find command.
 
Also, it just occurred to me that Brian has spoken often of how things increasingly don't look like what the technical structure is.  So, if someone tells me that add to cart is a button, and it isn't, if I use the b command and don't find it, that's another example of where the find command is the best way to find whatever it is.  If you know the words you are searching for accurately, it doesn't matter what a sighted person tells you it is.
 
If I'm looking for a link to something like local listings and a sighted person tells me that it is on the left side of the screen, a third of the way down, I then know it is probably in the large block of links a blind person sees at the top of the page.  But that doesn't help me find it efficiently.  Searching for the words local listings does.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

Hi Travis,

 

I don’t think Jean either interacts with sighted people and computers, or he doesn’t know what interpreting means.  One of the two.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Travis Siegel
Sent: 21 February 2019 17:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What are you talking about in saying my comments aren't precise?

I said exactly what I meant, if that isn't precise enough for you, then go bother someone else with trivial matters.  If you can't get enough context from my comments to make intelligent responses, then don't respond, simple as that.

On 2/21/2019 11:44 AM, Gene wrote:

Expanding abbreviations is the problem of the synthesizer, not the screen-reader.  And what do you mean by your other comments?  they are not precise nor do they take context into account.  Do you use all punctuation all the time?  Do you want to hear every punctuation mark announced?  I doubt it.  Right there, you are violating your first statement of what a screen-reader should do. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 10:38 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

It's always been my opinion that it's a screen reader's job to read the screen, it's my job to interpret what the screen reader tells me is there.  That means, if there's a graphic, the screen reader should tell me it's there, if there's an icon, the screen reader should tell me it's there.  The screen reader should read exactly what's there, and nothing else.  I can't tell you how many hours of productivity time I've lost from stupid little things like my screen reader telling me something was on the screen, when it wasn't actually there.  For example, the voiceover screen reader (and I think NVDA does as well) says volume, regardless of whether the entire word is there or not.  You know, sometimes, vol by itself does not mean volume.  This is of course a minor example of the screen reader saying something that isn't there, but you get the idea.  If the screen says v o l, then the screen reader should say v o l, not volume.  I understand that most folks do not agree with me on this, but it irks the hell out of me when screen readers say things that aren't there, especially when trying to find sorted file lists, One time I had magazine issues that were named differently from the publisher, depending on what year it was published.  I spent a good 10 minutes once trying to figure out why volume 2 issue 1 was out of order, and it turns out the reason was because the screen reader was reading vol as volume, but the publisher didn't spell out volume, only put the 3 letters vol, which changed the sorting order of that particular issue, since the rest of them had volume actually spelled out.  Odd, but there it is.  That was 10 minutes that didn't need to be wasted, because if the screen reader had just read what was on the screen, it would have been immediately apparent what the problem was, and it could have been easily corrected.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I say I've lost hours of productivity due to stupid little things that the screen reader read that didn't exist.

Although I reported it, and it (eventually) got fixed, at one point, when beta testing voiceover on the mac, the screen reader said the dinosaur Stegosaurus as Saint Ego Soars.  Again, a case of not reading what's on the screen, and one that should not have even occurred based on pronunciation rules built in to the screen reader, but these are the kinds of things that happen when your screen readers try to interpret things for you.  I don't like it, and I think it's a waste of time.  It wastes the user's time, and it wastes the developer's time, because they have to put in all the rules that create the speaking rules.  Just leave it alone, and let the damned thing read what's present, let me interpret what it all means.

On 2/20/2019 7:44 AM, Gene wrote:

That's two different questions.  changing the format may be a problem at times, when dealing with sighted people as you say.  but the solution isn't to have the screen-reader not do what it does.  the solution is to teach blind people to find what they are looking for on the page without being reliant on sighted people's instructions.  for example, if the sighted person tells the person that add to cart is in the middle of the page, a little up from the center, an efficient way for a blind person to find it is to disregard the description.  Go to the top of the page and use the screen-reader's find command to search for add to cart or for cart or whatever you want that is expected to find the thing efficiently if the search can be done efficiently.

 

I may find it interesting when a wwell-intentioned sighted person tells me where he/she sees something on the screen.  I don't use the description to find the item.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I disagree.  Changing the layout is interpreting of course it is.  It’s saying well here’s the info, in the format we think is right, not in the visual format.

 

Whether you like it or not, that is interpreting and becomes sometimes, a problem when interacting with sighted people.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 20 February 2019 10:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Changing the layout isn't interpreting.  Interpreting is when you do something like describe something in the screen-reader's own words.  But this doesn't change what is read.  It is changing the layout to make reading logical for blind people.  There is nothing wrong with this.  it has been done with great success since MSAA was introduced in the late Nineties for reading web pages efficiently.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 2:57 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Of course they are interpreting.  It reads the screen, but UIA changes the perceived layout of the screen.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What you are complaining about isn't screen interpreting.  it is a decision about what information is included and how you can move through it.  You may disagree with such decisions, but they aren't screen interpreting. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 12:30 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

OK, incorrect in so much that you can move the mouse, but only by routing it.

 

Window-Eyes could not only move by clip, but by graphic as well, this is really powerful.

 

If you told me to click on the third graphic from the top left on the screen, only Window-Eyes would allow me to do this.

 

Whatever happened to screen reading, as opposed to screen interpreting?  Don’t even get me started.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 16:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I know that Window-eyes and JAWS have ways of moving the mouse such as by pixels and in the case of Window-eyes, in some other way that I don't recall now, sort of by structure.  I remembered the term while reviewing my message.  it is by clip, as Window-eyes called it.  But both also allow for moving the mouse around the screen as you do in NVDA.  The difference is that in NVDA, you move the review position, then route the mouse to where you stop the review navigator. 

 

In JAWS, you could move the mouse to the word click.  In NVDA, you would move the review navigator to the word click, then route the mouse.  the mouse ends up in the same place.  I'm simply saying that your statement that the mouse can't be moved from the keyboard in NVDA is factually, not a matter of opinion, not correct.  I am not disagreeing that JAWS and
Window-eyes allow for different, more precise movements.  I'm also not arguing that the Golden Cursor add-on is necessary in NVDA to move the mouse in finer and more varied ways.  But your statement is factually incorrect. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 9:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi Jean,

 

But again, although you answered my question, it just proves to me that I couldn’t find what I wanted, because it is not there, that is moving the mouse using the keyboard.  This is there, if you download Golden Cursor, but I’ve had this in Window-Eyes for years, so I couldn’t imagine managing without it now.  It even exists in JAWS.  Even mouse search doesn’t currently exist in NVDA, so to me, this isn’t screen reading at its best at the moment.  That’s only to me, remember, just one guy who is an advanced screen reader user, and in that respect, as I’ve always said, NVDA, isn’t there yet.  I wish it would be.

 

Another example of this problem is the Izotope plug in installer.  NVDA doesn’t see the screen at all, nothing is read, so you have to OCR it.  When I install with JAWS, it sees the screen, and I can move the mouse to the Next button, but I can’t click it by tabbing nor object naving to it, because NVDA simply doesn’t see the screen, unless I OCR it.  JAWS sees it out of the box.  This is why I still maintain that video hooking is a necessary evil.

 

I know now that many programs use UIA now, so it’s less important, but the ability to manipulate the mouse via the keyboard, is still much needed when using custom apps.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 17:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

In the following response, I shall give desktop layout commands.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know those commands for what we are discussing.

 

There aren't specifically mouse movement keys such as in JAWS.  Read the review section of the manual or the relevant parts.  5.5 is a relevant section.  I'm not sure if there are any others.  You will see such commands as num[pad 9, move to next line, numpad 8, read current line, numpad 7 move to and read previous line.  These are review keys and don't affect the application, they review the screen.  I'm talking about what they do in screen review mode.  They have similar functions when in object navigation but they apply to the object that has focus.

 

To move the mouse to the review position, use the command numpad insert numpad slash.  To left click the mouse, use numpad slash. To right click, use numpad Times, which I believe is also the asterisk.  It's immediately to the right of numpad slash.  

 

If you can't find how to do something in NVDA, it is not good methodology or procedure to assume that it can't be done.  Asking here may provide information about how to do it or of an add-on that does.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 4:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hello Jean,

 

So what are the mouse movement keys via the keyboard then?  I’m sorry I can’t find them.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 08:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

You can move the mouse with the keyboard now.  You can't move it as precisely.  I don't have an opinion about whether the Golden Cursor features should be incorporated into the source code.  But your implication that the mouse can't be moved without the Golden Cursor is not correct.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 2:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Jean,

 

I think the whole Golden Cursor thing should be in NVDA to be honest.  The ability to move the mouse using the keyboard has been in screen readers, since the invention of Windows.

 

Supernova has it, System Access has it, JAWS has it, Window-Eyes was best at it, and so on.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

The search feature should, I think, be in NVDA, not in the Golden Cursor. This is important funcionality and is too important to depend on a user downloading an add-on to have it available.

 

Gene 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

--

Computer Room Services

77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

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Re: NVDA and sounds

Tony Malykh
 

I have it in my plans to write such an add-on. However, it requires
the new speech framework from NVDA, which has been in development for
a long time, and I don't know when it's going to be released - I need
to ping NVDA devs.
I think this is a very good idea to have such a functionality, and
it'snot just for fun. For example, one major use case for it is to
replace punctuation marks with sounds. I am reading and writing
programming code all day long and I have to listen to tongue twisters
of left paren right bracket left brace all day long - I expect if they
are replaced with very distinct chimes beeps and bangs - that would
significantly increase my productivity.
Another use case is to replace frequently used words, such as "blank",
"has attachment", "no next paragraph" with sounds as well.
As for Jaws, I remember playing with their feature and I came to
conclusion that it was poorly implemented. They don't synchronize
speech with sounds, and so the sounds may play at a random time. For
example if you replace a period with a ding, it may sound in the
beginning of the sentence, not in the end, which would be useless to
me. Correct me if I'm wrong and things have improved in Jaws. And as
usual, this is not to start a screenreader war, just trying to have an
objective comparison of features.
--Tony

On 2/13/19, Chris Shook <chris0309@...> wrote:
Queck question.
JAWS had a way to link sounds with words using the Dictionary manager.
Is there an addon for NVDA that can do the same thing?




Re: Golden Cursor question

Gene
 

I'm sorry you can't discuss intelligent comments and objections in a civil manner.  What is your definition of interpretation?  You said the screen-reader should read what is on screen.  You said you want to hear every graphic.  you complained about abbreviation expansions which are the fault of the synthesizer and not the screen-reader in the first place.  You neglected to comment, in your ill tempered answer, on whether you consider setting your punctuation levels so you don't hear all punctuation as asking the screen-reader to interpret.  And don't tell me this objection is trivial.  I'm trying to get you to define your terms.  I'm pointing out by using your own logic and statements that if folllowed to their logical conclusion, you get ridiculous results.  That means you have to define your terms and qualify your statements to avoid this.  I'm asking you at what point interpretation, as you define it is acceptable and at what point it isn't.  I don't want to hear every graphic in a program such as an e-mail program that may display a graphic to the left of every message in the message list.  I don't want to use screen review to find something in a program and hear ten graphics announced as graphic before the text I'm looking for on a line and ten graphics spoken after.  I want the option to have graphics announced or not.  I've had this sort of thing happen so don't tell me I'm being trivial.  As far as I know, there is no such option in NVDA.  This isn't trivial. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

What are you talking about in saying my comments aren't precise?

I said exactly what I meant, if that isn't precise enough for you, then go bother someone else with trivial matters.  If you can't get enough context from my comments to make intelligent responses, then don't respond, simple as that.

On 2/21/2019 11:44 AM, Gene wrote:
Expanding abbreviations is the problem of the synthesizer, not the screen-reader.  And what do you mean by your other comments?  they are not precise nor do they take context into account.  Do you use all punctuation all the time?  Do you want to hear every punctuation mark announced?  I doubt it.  Right there, you are violating your first statement of what a screen-reader should do. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

It's always been my opinion that it's a screen reader's job to read the screen, it's my job to interpret what the screen reader tells me is there.  That means, if there's a graphic, the screen reader should tell me it's there, if there's an icon, the screen reader should tell me it's there.  The screen reader should read exactly what's there, and nothing else.  I can't tell you how many hours of productivity time I've lost from stupid little things like my screen reader telling me something was on the screen, when it wasn't actually there.  For example, the voiceover screen reader (and I think NVDA does as well) says volume, regardless of whether the entire word is there or not.  You know, sometimes, vol by itself does not mean volume.  This is of course a minor example of the screen reader saying something that isn't there, but you get the idea.  If the screen says v o l, then the screen reader should say v o l, not volume.  I understand that most folks do not agree with me on this, but it irks the hell out of me when screen readers say things that aren't there, especially when trying to find sorted file lists, One time I had magazine issues that were named differently from the publisher, depending on what year it was published.  I spent a good 10 minutes once trying to figure out why volume 2 issue 1 was out of order, and it turns out the reason was because the screen reader was reading vol as volume, but the publisher didn't spell out volume, only put the 3 letters vol, which changed the sorting order of that particular issue, since the rest of them had volume actually spelled out.  Odd, but there it is.  That was 10 minutes that didn't need to be wasted, because if the screen reader had just read what was on the screen, it would have been immediately apparent what the problem was, and it could have been easily corrected.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I say I've lost hours of productivity due to stupid little things that the screen reader read that didn't exist.

Although I reported it, and it (eventually) got fixed, at one point, when beta testing voiceover on the mac, the screen reader said the dinosaur Stegosaurus as Saint Ego Soars.  Again, a case of not reading what's on the screen, and one that should not have even occurred based on pronunciation rules built in to the screen reader, but these are the kinds of things that happen when your screen readers try to interpret things for you.  I don't like it, and I think it's a waste of time.  It wastes the user's time, and it wastes the developer's time, because they have to put in all the rules that create the speaking rules.  Just leave it alone, and let the damned thing read what's present, let me interpret what it all means.

On 2/20/2019 7:44 AM, Gene wrote:
That's two different questions.  changing the format may be a problem at times, when dealing with sighted people as you say.  but the solution isn't to have the screen-reader not do what it does.  the solution is to teach blind people to find what they are looking for on the page without being reliant on sighted people's instructions.  for example, if the sighted person tells the person that add to cart is in the middle of the page, a little up from the center, an efficient way for a blind person to find it is to disregard the description.  Go to the top of the page and use the screen-reader's find command to search for add to cart or for cart or whatever you want that is expected to find the thing efficiently if the search can be done efficiently.
 
I may find it interesting when a wwell-intentioned sighted person tells me where he/she sees something on the screen.  I don't use the description to find the item.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

I disagree.  Changing the layout is interpreting of course it is.  It’s saying well here’s the info, in the format we think is right, not in the visual format.

 

Whether you like it or not, that is interpreting and becomes sometimes, a problem when interacting with sighted people.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 20 February 2019 10:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Changing the layout isn't interpreting.  Interpreting is when you do something like describe something in the screen-reader's own words.  But this doesn't change what is read.  It is changing the layout to make reading logical for blind people.  There is nothing wrong with this.  it has been done with great success since MSAA was introduced in the late Nineties for reading web pages efficiently.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 2:57 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Of course they are interpreting.  It reads the screen, but UIA changes the perceived layout of the screen.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What you are complaining about isn't screen interpreting.  it is a decision about what information is included and how you can move through it.  You may disagree with such decisions, but they aren't screen interpreting. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 12:30 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

OK, incorrect in so much that you can move the mouse, but only by routing it.

 

Window-Eyes could not only move by clip, but by graphic as well, this is really powerful.

 

If you told me to click on the third graphic from the top left on the screen, only Window-Eyes would allow me to do this.

 

Whatever happened to screen reading, as opposed to screen interpreting?  Don’t even get me started.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 16:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I know that Window-eyes and JAWS have ways of moving the mouse such as by pixels and in the case of Window-eyes, in some other way that I don't recall now, sort of by structure.  I remembered the term while reviewing my message.  it is by clip, as Window-eyes called it.  But both also allow for moving the mouse around the screen as you do in NVDA.  The difference is that in NVDA, you move the review position, then route the mouse to where you stop the review navigator. 

 

In JAWS, you could move the mouse to the word click.  In NVDA, you would move the review navigator to the word click, then route the mouse.  the mouse ends up in the same place.  I'm simply saying that your statement that the mouse can't be moved from the keyboard in NVDA is factually, not a matter of opinion, not correct.  I am not disagreeing that JAWS and
Window-eyes allow for different, more precise movements.  I'm also not arguing that the Golden Cursor add-on is necessary in NVDA to move the mouse in finer and more varied ways.  But your statement is factually incorrect. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 9:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi Jean,

 

But again, although you answered my question, it just proves to me that I couldn’t find what I wanted, because it is not there, that is moving the mouse using the keyboard.  This is there, if you download Golden Cursor, but I’ve had this in Window-Eyes for years, so I couldn’t imagine managing without it now.  It even exists in JAWS.  Even mouse search doesn’t currently exist in NVDA, so to me, this isn’t screen reading at its best at the moment.  That’s only to me, remember, just one guy who is an advanced screen reader user, and in that respect, as I’ve always said, NVDA, isn’t there yet.  I wish it would be.

 

Another example of this problem is the Izotope plug in installer.  NVDA doesn’t see the screen at all, nothing is read, so you have to OCR it.  When I install with JAWS, it sees the screen, and I can move the mouse to the Next button, but I can’t click it by tabbing nor object naving to it, because NVDA simply doesn’t see the screen, unless I OCR it.  JAWS sees it out of the box.  This is why I still maintain that video hooking is a necessary evil.

 

I know now that many programs use UIA now, so it’s less important, but the ability to manipulate the mouse via the keyboard, is still much needed when using custom apps.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 17:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

In the following response, I shall give desktop layout commands.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know those commands for what we are discussing.

 

There aren't specifically mouse movement keys such as in JAWS.  Read the review section of the manual or the relevant parts.  5.5 is a relevant section.  I'm not sure if there are any others.  You will see such commands as num[pad 9, move to next line, numpad 8, read current line, numpad 7 move to and read previous line.  These are review keys and don't affect the application, they review the screen.  I'm talking about what they do in screen review mode.  They have similar functions when in object navigation but they apply to the object that has focus.

 

To move the mouse to the review position, use the command numpad insert numpad slash.  To left click the mouse, use numpad slash. To right click, use numpad Times, which I believe is also the asterisk.  It's immediately to the right of numpad slash.  

 

If you can't find how to do something in NVDA, it is not good methodology or procedure to assume that it can't be done.  Asking here may provide information about how to do it or of an add-on that does.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 4:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hello Jean,

 

So what are the mouse movement keys via the keyboard then?  I’m sorry I can’t find them.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 08:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

You can move the mouse with the keyboard now.  You can't move it as precisely.  I don't have an opinion about whether the Golden Cursor features should be incorporated into the source code.  But your implication that the mouse can't be moved without the Golden Cursor is not correct.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 2:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Jean,

 

I think the whole Golden Cursor thing should be in NVDA to be honest.  The ability to move the mouse using the keyboard has been in screen readers, since the invention of Windows.

 

Supernova has it, System Access has it, JAWS has it, Window-Eyes was best at it, and so on.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

The search feature should, I think, be in NVDA, not in the Golden Cursor. This is important funcionality and is too important to depend on a user downloading an add-on to have it available.

 

Gene 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

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Re: About accessable book reading apps

James AUSTIN
 

Thanks Travis

Perhaps you could write me off list please? I would like some advice about reading on Linux please? 

Best
Thanks
James


On 21 Feb 2019, at 17:48, Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...> wrote:

Baen.com is the publisher where I've been buying/reading books since 1999.  Somewhere around the 2005 timeframe, they implemented a program that allows access to their entire collection for print impaired folks, and I got in to that when it became available, but I'd already spent more than 800 bucks buying books from them before that happened, because of their you bought it, you own it policy.  Quite the breath of fresh air from most publishers who treat everyone like a crook even before you've bought anything from them.  They mainly deal in science fiction titles, which is my favorite genre, but they do have authors that write in other genres as well.

Smashwords.com is another place I purchase drm free books, and I always download the epub format, because that allows me to unzip the books and use them in my web browser.

And, just to keep it on topic, NVDA works just fine with all publishers/formats mentioned in this message.

On 2/21/2019 12:25 PM, James AUSTIN wrote:
Hi  Travis

What company do you use? 

Thanks
James


On 21 Feb 2019, at 16:49, Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...> wrote:

the kindle app is accessible both on windows and IOS.  I do use it (quite a lot), though I don't really like it all that much, because there's no way to backup your books, and if something happens to the amazon service, or the kindle app becomes inaccessible, you're out of luck.  I much prefer to download my books and keep them on my hd, so I can back up the books to any service of my choice.  I have one company I've been getting books from for almost 20 years, and each and every one of their books are in plain html format (they have other formats, I choose the html format because it's easiest for me), and I have never once lost a book from them, even though ZI've changed computers several times, and even had severe computer crashes, and you want to know why? because I have the capability of storing my books elsewhere such as cloud storage, external drives and the like.  And I never have to worry that I won't have access to my books anymore if they go out of business, or if they can't sell particular books any longer (as happens regularly with kindle), because I already have them, and they're saved in various places, and I can always go get another copy of my books when something happens.  Amazon, kobo, audible and others don't allow this, which is why I don't like using them.

However, for the moment, kindle works fairly well, and I have the kindle unlimited service, so I read several books a month from the kindle unlimited selections, and enjoy it very much, but even the books I purchase on kindle, I know are eventually going to be inaccessible in one way or another, it's just a matter of time.  I've already lost 5 or 6 books I bought on amazon, because I couldn't back them up, and they are no longer available for download on the kindle app.

It stinks, but what can you do.

On 2/20/2019 9:52 AM, UMIT ERDEM Yigitoglu wrote:
Hello,
I know that the subject is off topic for this group, but I don't know any mailing group that it would be suitable for and I thought that discussing book reading won't hurt us. if I crowd your inbox I'm sorry. 
first of all, just to satisfy my curiosity, how do you read or listen your books usually (e.g, which platform, what programs or apps, what kind of format in) and why?
for myself:
I usually get my books from Bookshare.org and read them with apple books Because it is very easy to use and acsessible. 
Secondly, I like Apple books very much. it is pretty easy to use. However, it is very anoying not to be able to sencronize it with my computor or other divices. I would much prefer having a library that I can reach from everywhere. Adobe digital edditions seems promising at first but IOS app doesn't work with voiceover at all and it has some important accessibility issues in windows with NVDA wich I can tolerate if I could have used it in my phone effectively. do you have any recommendations for a free or cheap app that I can use in at least windows and IOS with singronisation? highlighting text and bookmarking is very important for me too.
I am really sorry about this long post but I think discussing this issue will be a stimulating discussion and is important.
Best regards
 

Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: About accessable book reading apps

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

Baen.com is the publisher where I've been buying/reading books since 1999.  Somewhere around the 2005 timeframe, they implemented a program that allows access to their entire collection for print impaired folks, and I got in to that when it became available, but I'd already spent more than 800 bucks buying books from them before that happened, because of their you bought it, you own it policy.  Quite the breath of fresh air from most publishers who treat everyone like a crook even before you've bought anything from them.  They mainly deal in science fiction titles, which is my favorite genre, but they do have authors that write in other genres as well.

Smashwords.com is another place I purchase drm free books, and I always download the epub format, because that allows me to unzip the books and use them in my web browser.

And, just to keep it on topic, NVDA works just fine with all publishers/formats mentioned in this message.

On 2/21/2019 12:25 PM, James AUSTIN wrote:

Hi  Travis

What company do you use? 

Thanks
James


On 21 Feb 2019, at 16:49, Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...> wrote:

the kindle app is accessible both on windows and IOS.  I do use it (quite a lot), though I don't really like it all that much, because there's no way to backup your books, and if something happens to the amazon service, or the kindle app becomes inaccessible, you're out of luck.  I much prefer to download my books and keep them on my hd, so I can back up the books to any service of my choice.  I have one company I've been getting books from for almost 20 years, and each and every one of their books are in plain html format (they have other formats, I choose the html format because it's easiest for me), and I have never once lost a book from them, even though ZI've changed computers several times, and even had severe computer crashes, and you want to know why? because I have the capability of storing my books elsewhere such as cloud storage, external drives and the like.  And I never have to worry that I won't have access to my books anymore if they go out of business, or if they can't sell particular books any longer (as happens regularly with kindle), because I already have them, and they're saved in various places, and I can always go get another copy of my books when something happens.  Amazon, kobo, audible and others don't allow this, which is why I don't like using them.

However, for the moment, kindle works fairly well, and I have the kindle unlimited service, so I read several books a month from the kindle unlimited selections, and enjoy it very much, but even the books I purchase on kindle, I know are eventually going to be inaccessible in one way or another, it's just a matter of time.  I've already lost 5 or 6 books I bought on amazon, because I couldn't back them up, and they are no longer available for download on the kindle app.

It stinks, but what can you do.

On 2/20/2019 9:52 AM, UMIT ERDEM Yigitoglu wrote:
Hello,
I know that the subject is off topic for this group, but I don't know any mailing group that it would be suitable for and I thought that discussing book reading won't hurt us. if I crowd your inbox I'm sorry. 
first of all, just to satisfy my curiosity, how do you read or listen your books usually (e.g, which platform, what programs or apps, what kind of format in) and why?
for myself:
I usually get my books from Bookshare.org and read them with apple books Because it is very easy to use and acsessible. 
Secondly, I like Apple books very much. it is pretty easy to use. However, it is very anoying not to be able to sencronize it with my computor or other divices. I would much prefer having a library that I can reach from everywhere. Adobe digital edditions seems promising at first but IOS app doesn't work with voiceover at all and it has some important accessibility issues in windows with NVDA wich I can tolerate if I could have used it in my phone effectively. do you have any recommendations for a free or cheap app that I can use in at least windows and IOS with singronisation? highlighting text and bookmarking is very important for me too.
I am really sorry about this long post but I think discussing this issue will be a stimulating discussion and is important.
Best regards
 

Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: Golden Cursor question

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Travis,

 

I don’t think Jean either interacts with sighted people and computers, or he doesn’t know what interpreting means.  One of the two.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Travis Siegel
Sent: 21 February 2019 17:26
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What are you talking about in saying my comments aren't precise?

I said exactly what I meant, if that isn't precise enough for you, then go bother someone else with trivial matters.  If you can't get enough context from my comments to make intelligent responses, then don't respond, simple as that.

On 2/21/2019 11:44 AM, Gene wrote:

Expanding abbreviations is the problem of the synthesizer, not the screen-reader.  And what do you mean by your other comments?  they are not precise nor do they take context into account.  Do you use all punctuation all the time?  Do you want to hear every punctuation mark announced?  I doubt it.  Right there, you are violating your first statement of what a screen-reader should do. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 10:38 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

It's always been my opinion that it's a screen reader's job to read the screen, it's my job to interpret what the screen reader tells me is there.  That means, if there's a graphic, the screen reader should tell me it's there, if there's an icon, the screen reader should tell me it's there.  The screen reader should read exactly what's there, and nothing else.  I can't tell you how many hours of productivity time I've lost from stupid little things like my screen reader telling me something was on the screen, when it wasn't actually there.  For example, the voiceover screen reader (and I think NVDA does as well) says volume, regardless of whether the entire word is there or not.  You know, sometimes, vol by itself does not mean volume.  This is of course a minor example of the screen reader saying something that isn't there, but you get the idea.  If the screen says v o l, then the screen reader should say v o l, not volume.  I understand that most folks do not agree with me on this, but it irks the hell out of me when screen readers say things that aren't there, especially when trying to find sorted file lists, One time I had magazine issues that were named differently from the publisher, depending on what year it was published.  I spent a good 10 minutes once trying to figure out why volume 2 issue 1 was out of order, and it turns out the reason was because the screen reader was reading vol as volume, but the publisher didn't spell out volume, only put the 3 letters vol, which changed the sorting order of that particular issue, since the rest of them had volume actually spelled out.  Odd, but there it is.  That was 10 minutes that didn't need to be wasted, because if the screen reader had just read what was on the screen, it would have been immediately apparent what the problem was, and it could have been easily corrected.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I say I've lost hours of productivity due to stupid little things that the screen reader read that didn't exist.

Although I reported it, and it (eventually) got fixed, at one point, when beta testing voiceover on the mac, the screen reader said the dinosaur Stegosaurus as Saint Ego Soars.  Again, a case of not reading what's on the screen, and one that should not have even occurred based on pronunciation rules built in to the screen reader, but these are the kinds of things that happen when your screen readers try to interpret things for you.  I don't like it, and I think it's a waste of time.  It wastes the user's time, and it wastes the developer's time, because they have to put in all the rules that create the speaking rules.  Just leave it alone, and let the damned thing read what's present, let me interpret what it all means.

On 2/20/2019 7:44 AM, Gene wrote:

That's two different questions.  changing the format may be a problem at times, when dealing with sighted people as you say.  but the solution isn't to have the screen-reader not do what it does.  the solution is to teach blind people to find what they are looking for on the page without being reliant on sighted people's instructions.  for example, if the sighted person tells the person that add to cart is in the middle of the page, a little up from the center, an efficient way for a blind person to find it is to disregard the description.  Go to the top of the page and use the screen-reader's find command to search for add to cart or for cart or whatever you want that is expected to find the thing efficiently if the search can be done efficiently.

 

I may find it interesting when a wwell-intentioned sighted person tells me where he/she sees something on the screen.  I don't use the description to find the item.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I disagree.  Changing the layout is interpreting of course it is.  It’s saying well here’s the info, in the format we think is right, not in the visual format.

 

Whether you like it or not, that is interpreting and becomes sometimes, a problem when interacting with sighted people.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 20 February 2019 10:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Changing the layout isn't interpreting.  Interpreting is when you do something like describe something in the screen-reader's own words.  But this doesn't change what is read.  It is changing the layout to make reading logical for blind people.  There is nothing wrong with this.  it has been done with great success since MSAA was introduced in the late Nineties for reading web pages efficiently.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 2:57 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Of course they are interpreting.  It reads the screen, but UIA changes the perceived layout of the screen.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What you are complaining about isn't screen interpreting.  it is a decision about what information is included and how you can move through it.  You may disagree with such decisions, but they aren't screen interpreting. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 12:30 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

OK, incorrect in so much that you can move the mouse, but only by routing it.

 

Window-Eyes could not only move by clip, but by graphic as well, this is really powerful.

 

If you told me to click on the third graphic from the top left on the screen, only Window-Eyes would allow me to do this.

 

Whatever happened to screen reading, as opposed to screen interpreting?  Don’t even get me started.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 16:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I know that Window-eyes and JAWS have ways of moving the mouse such as by pixels and in the case of Window-eyes, in some other way that I don't recall now, sort of by structure.  I remembered the term while reviewing my message.  it is by clip, as Window-eyes called it.  But both also allow for moving the mouse around the screen as you do in NVDA.  The difference is that in NVDA, you move the review position, then route the mouse to where you stop the review navigator. 

 

In JAWS, you could move the mouse to the word click.  In NVDA, you would move the review navigator to the word click, then route the mouse.  the mouse ends up in the same place.  I'm simply saying that your statement that the mouse can't be moved from the keyboard in NVDA is factually, not a matter of opinion, not correct.  I am not disagreeing that JAWS and
Window-eyes allow for different, more precise movements.  I'm also not arguing that the Golden Cursor add-on is necessary in NVDA to move the mouse in finer and more varied ways.  But your statement is factually incorrect. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 9:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi Jean,

 

But again, although you answered my question, it just proves to me that I couldn’t find what I wanted, because it is not there, that is moving the mouse using the keyboard.  This is there, if you download Golden Cursor, but I’ve had this in Window-Eyes for years, so I couldn’t imagine managing without it now.  It even exists in JAWS.  Even mouse search doesn’t currently exist in NVDA, so to me, this isn’t screen reading at its best at the moment.  That’s only to me, remember, just one guy who is an advanced screen reader user, and in that respect, as I’ve always said, NVDA, isn’t there yet.  I wish it would be.

 

Another example of this problem is the Izotope plug in installer.  NVDA doesn’t see the screen at all, nothing is read, so you have to OCR it.  When I install with JAWS, it sees the screen, and I can move the mouse to the Next button, but I can’t click it by tabbing nor object naving to it, because NVDA simply doesn’t see the screen, unless I OCR it.  JAWS sees it out of the box.  This is why I still maintain that video hooking is a necessary evil.

 

I know now that many programs use UIA now, so it’s less important, but the ability to manipulate the mouse via the keyboard, is still much needed when using custom apps.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 17:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

In the following response, I shall give desktop layout commands.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know those commands for what we are discussing.

 

There aren't specifically mouse movement keys such as in JAWS.  Read the review section of the manual or the relevant parts.  5.5 is a relevant section.  I'm not sure if there are any others.  You will see such commands as num[pad 9, move to next line, numpad 8, read current line, numpad 7 move to and read previous line.  These are review keys and don't affect the application, they review the screen.  I'm talking about what they do in screen review mode.  They have similar functions when in object navigation but they apply to the object that has focus.

 

To move the mouse to the review position, use the command numpad insert numpad slash.  To left click the mouse, use numpad slash. To right click, use numpad Times, which I believe is also the asterisk.  It's immediately to the right of numpad slash.  

 

If you can't find how to do something in NVDA, it is not good methodology or procedure to assume that it can't be done.  Asking here may provide information about how to do it or of an add-on that does.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 4:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hello Jean,

 

So what are the mouse movement keys via the keyboard then?  I’m sorry I can’t find them.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 08:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

You can move the mouse with the keyboard now.  You can't move it as precisely.  I don't have an opinion about whether the Golden Cursor features should be incorporated into the source code.  But your implication that the mouse can't be moved without the Golden Cursor is not correct.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 2:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Jean,

 

I think the whole Golden Cursor thing should be in NVDA to be honest.  The ability to move the mouse using the keyboard has been in screen readers, since the invention of Windows.

 

Supernova has it, System Access has it, JAWS has it, Window-Eyes was best at it, and so on.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

The search feature should, I think, be in NVDA, not in the Golden Cursor. This is important funcionality and is too important to depend on a user downloading an add-on to have it available.

 

Gene 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

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77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

Mob: +44(0)7956-334938

Fax: +44(0)1438-759589

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Re: Golden Cursor question

Steve Nutt
 

Hi Travis,

 

I totally agree with you.  UIA causes screen readers to interpret more than they used to as well.

 

For example, NVDA will read the whole details of a file in File Explorer, even if it is not on the screen.

 

The other one that really gets me is web browsing with a sighted person.  Maybe Brian Vogel can comment on this, but I hate it when I’m asking my assistant about something on the web, and my screen reader is focused somewhere else entirely.

 

Neither JAWS nor NVDA really let the sighted person know where the focus is at any given moment.  So screen readers are really interpreters.

 

NVDA has a great feature in this regard though, where you can turn it on to read the screen layout, but the sighted person still doesn’t always know where it is focused.

 

All the best


Steve

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Travis Siegel
Sent: 21 February 2019 16:39
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

It's always been my opinion that it's a screen reader's job to read the screen, it's my job to interpret what the screen reader tells me is there.  That means, if there's a graphic, the screen reader should tell me it's there, if there's an icon, the screen reader should tell me it's there.  The screen reader should read exactly what's there, and nothing else.  I can't tell you how many hours of productivity time I've lost from stupid little things like my screen reader telling me something was on the screen, when it wasn't actually there.  For example, the voiceover screen reader (and I think NVDA does as well) says volume, regardless of whether the entire word is there or not.  You know, sometimes, vol by itself does not mean volume.  This is of course a minor example of the screen reader saying something that isn't there, but you get the idea.  If the screen says v o l, then the screen reader should say v o l, not volume.  I understand that most folks do not agree with me on this, but it irks the hell out of me when screen readers say things that aren't there, especially when trying to find sorted file lists, One time I had magazine issues that were named differently from the publisher, depending on what year it was published.  I spent a good 10 minutes once trying to figure out why volume 2 issue 1 was out of order, and it turns out the reason was because the screen reader was reading vol as volume, but the publisher didn't spell out volume, only put the 3 letters vol, which changed the sorting order of that particular issue, since the rest of them had volume actually spelled out.  Odd, but there it is.  That was 10 minutes that didn't need to be wasted, because if the screen reader had just read what was on the screen, it would have been immediately apparent what the problem was, and it could have been easily corrected.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I say I've lost hours of productivity due to stupid little things that the screen reader read that didn't exist.

Although I reported it, and it (eventually) got fixed, at one point, when beta testing voiceover on the mac, the screen reader said the dinosaur Stegosaurus as Saint Ego Soars.  Again, a case of not reading what's on the screen, and one that should not have even occurred based on pronunciation rules built in to the screen reader, but these are the kinds of things that happen when your screen readers try to interpret things for you.  I don't like it, and I think it's a waste of time.  It wastes the user's time, and it wastes the developer's time, because they have to put in all the rules that create the speaking rules.  Just leave it alone, and let the damned thing read what's present, let me interpret what it all means.

On 2/20/2019 7:44 AM, Gene wrote:

That's two different questions.  changing the format may be a problem at times, when dealing with sighted people as you say.  but the solution isn't to have the screen-reader not do what it does.  the solution is to teach blind people to find what they are looking for on the page without being reliant on sighted people's instructions.  for example, if the sighted person tells the person that add to cart is in the middle of the page, a little up from the center, an efficient way for a blind person to find it is to disregard the description.  Go to the top of the page and use the screen-reader's find command to search for add to cart or for cart or whatever you want that is expected to find the thing efficiently if the search can be done efficiently.

 

I may find it interesting when a wwell-intentioned sighted person tells me where he/she sees something on the screen.  I don't use the description to find the item.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I disagree.  Changing the layout is interpreting of course it is.  It’s saying well here’s the info, in the format we think is right, not in the visual format.

 

Whether you like it or not, that is interpreting and becomes sometimes, a problem when interacting with sighted people.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 20 February 2019 10:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Changing the layout isn't interpreting.  Interpreting is when you do something like describe something in the screen-reader's own words.  But this doesn't change what is read.  It is changing the layout to make reading logical for blind people.  There is nothing wrong with this.  it has been done with great success since MSAA was introduced in the late Nineties for reading web pages efficiently.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 2:57 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Of course they are interpreting.  It reads the screen, but UIA changes the perceived layout of the screen.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What you are complaining about isn't screen interpreting.  it is a decision about what information is included and how you can move through it.  You may disagree with such decisions, but they aren't screen interpreting. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 12:30 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

OK, incorrect in so much that you can move the mouse, but only by routing it.

 

Window-Eyes could not only move by clip, but by graphic as well, this is really powerful.

 

If you told me to click on the third graphic from the top left on the screen, only Window-Eyes would allow me to do this.

 

Whatever happened to screen reading, as opposed to screen interpreting?  Don’t even get me started.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 16:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I know that Window-eyes and JAWS have ways of moving the mouse such as by pixels and in the case of Window-eyes, in some other way that I don't recall now, sort of by structure.  I remembered the term while reviewing my message.  it is by clip, as Window-eyes called it.  But both also allow for moving the mouse around the screen as you do in NVDA.  The difference is that in NVDA, you move the review position, then route the mouse to where you stop the review navigator. 

 

In JAWS, you could move the mouse to the word click.  In NVDA, you would move the review navigator to the word click, then route the mouse.  the mouse ends up in the same place.  I'm simply saying that your statement that the mouse can't be moved from the keyboard in NVDA is factually, not a matter of opinion, not correct.  I am not disagreeing that JAWS and
Window-eyes allow for different, more precise movements.  I'm also not arguing that the Golden Cursor add-on is necessary in NVDA to move the mouse in finer and more varied ways.  But your statement is factually incorrect. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 9:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi Jean,

 

But again, although you answered my question, it just proves to me that I couldn’t find what I wanted, because it is not there, that is moving the mouse using the keyboard.  This is there, if you download Golden Cursor, but I’ve had this in Window-Eyes for years, so I couldn’t imagine managing without it now.  It even exists in JAWS.  Even mouse search doesn’t currently exist in NVDA, so to me, this isn’t screen reading at its best at the moment.  That’s only to me, remember, just one guy who is an advanced screen reader user, and in that respect, as I’ve always said, NVDA, isn’t there yet.  I wish it would be.

 

Another example of this problem is the Izotope plug in installer.  NVDA doesn’t see the screen at all, nothing is read, so you have to OCR it.  When I install with JAWS, it sees the screen, and I can move the mouse to the Next button, but I can’t click it by tabbing nor object naving to it, because NVDA simply doesn’t see the screen, unless I OCR it.  JAWS sees it out of the box.  This is why I still maintain that video hooking is a necessary evil.

 

I know now that many programs use UIA now, so it’s less important, but the ability to manipulate the mouse via the keyboard, is still much needed when using custom apps.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 17:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

In the following response, I shall give desktop layout commands.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know those commands for what we are discussing.

 

There aren't specifically mouse movement keys such as in JAWS.  Read the review section of the manual or the relevant parts.  5.5 is a relevant section.  I'm not sure if there are any others.  You will see such commands as num[pad 9, move to next line, numpad 8, read current line, numpad 7 move to and read previous line.  These are review keys and don't affect the application, they review the screen.  I'm talking about what they do in screen review mode.  They have similar functions when in object navigation but they apply to the object that has focus.

 

To move the mouse to the review position, use the command numpad insert numpad slash.  To left click the mouse, use numpad slash. To right click, use numpad Times, which I believe is also the asterisk.  It's immediately to the right of numpad slash.  

 

If you can't find how to do something in NVDA, it is not good methodology or procedure to assume that it can't be done.  Asking here may provide information about how to do it or of an add-on that does.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 4:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hello Jean,

 

So what are the mouse movement keys via the keyboard then?  I’m sorry I can’t find them.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 08:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

You can move the mouse with the keyboard now.  You can't move it as precisely.  I don't have an opinion about whether the Golden Cursor features should be incorporated into the source code.  But your implication that the mouse can't be moved without the Golden Cursor is not correct.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 2:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Jean,

 

I think the whole Golden Cursor thing should be in NVDA to be honest.  The ability to move the mouse using the keyboard has been in screen readers, since the invention of Windows.

 

Supernova has it, System Access has it, JAWS has it, Window-Eyes was best at it, and so on.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

The search feature should, I think, be in NVDA, not in the Golden Cursor. This is important funcionality and is too important to depend on a user downloading an add-on to have it available.

 

Gene 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

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Re: Golden Cursor question

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

What are you talking about in saying my comments aren't precise?

I said exactly what I meant, if that isn't precise enough for you, then go bother someone else with trivial matters.  If you can't get enough context from my comments to make intelligent responses, then don't respond, simple as that.

On 2/21/2019 11:44 AM, Gene wrote:

Expanding abbreviations is the problem of the synthesizer, not the screen-reader.  And what do you mean by your other comments?  they are not precise nor do they take context into account.  Do you use all punctuation all the time?  Do you want to hear every punctuation mark announced?  I doubt it.  Right there, you are violating your first statement of what a screen-reader should do. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

It's always been my opinion that it's a screen reader's job to read the screen, it's my job to interpret what the screen reader tells me is there.  That means, if there's a graphic, the screen reader should tell me it's there, if there's an icon, the screen reader should tell me it's there.  The screen reader should read exactly what's there, and nothing else.  I can't tell you how many hours of productivity time I've lost from stupid little things like my screen reader telling me something was on the screen, when it wasn't actually there.  For example, the voiceover screen reader (and I think NVDA does as well) says volume, regardless of whether the entire word is there or not.  You know, sometimes, vol by itself does not mean volume.  This is of course a minor example of the screen reader saying something that isn't there, but you get the idea.  If the screen says v o l, then the screen reader should say v o l, not volume.  I understand that most folks do not agree with me on this, but it irks the hell out of me when screen readers say things that aren't there, especially when trying to find sorted file lists, One time I had magazine issues that were named differently from the publisher, depending on what year it was published.  I spent a good 10 minutes once trying to figure out why volume 2 issue 1 was out of order, and it turns out the reason was because the screen reader was reading vol as volume, but the publisher didn't spell out volume, only put the 3 letters vol, which changed the sorting order of that particular issue, since the rest of them had volume actually spelled out.  Odd, but there it is.  That was 10 minutes that didn't need to be wasted, because if the screen reader had just read what was on the screen, it would have been immediately apparent what the problem was, and it could have been easily corrected.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I say I've lost hours of productivity due to stupid little things that the screen reader read that didn't exist.

Although I reported it, and it (eventually) got fixed, at one point, when beta testing voiceover on the mac, the screen reader said the dinosaur Stegosaurus as Saint Ego Soars.  Again, a case of not reading what's on the screen, and one that should not have even occurred based on pronunciation rules built in to the screen reader, but these are the kinds of things that happen when your screen readers try to interpret things for you.  I don't like it, and I think it's a waste of time.  It wastes the user's time, and it wastes the developer's time, because they have to put in all the rules that create the speaking rules.  Just leave it alone, and let the damned thing read what's present, let me interpret what it all means.

On 2/20/2019 7:44 AM, Gene wrote:
That's two different questions.  changing the format may be a problem at times, when dealing with sighted people as you say.  but the solution isn't to have the screen-reader not do what it does.  the solution is to teach blind people to find what they are looking for on the page without being reliant on sighted people's instructions.  for example, if the sighted person tells the person that add to cart is in the middle of the page, a little up from the center, an efficient way for a blind person to find it is to disregard the description.  Go to the top of the page and use the screen-reader's find command to search for add to cart or for cart or whatever you want that is expected to find the thing efficiently if the search can be done efficiently.
 
I may find it interesting when a wwell-intentioned sighted person tells me where he/she sees something on the screen.  I don't use the description to find the item.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

I disagree.  Changing the layout is interpreting of course it is.  It’s saying well here’s the info, in the format we think is right, not in the visual format.

 

Whether you like it or not, that is interpreting and becomes sometimes, a problem when interacting with sighted people.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 20 February 2019 10:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Changing the layout isn't interpreting.  Interpreting is when you do something like describe something in the screen-reader's own words.  But this doesn't change what is read.  It is changing the layout to make reading logical for blind people.  There is nothing wrong with this.  it has been done with great success since MSAA was introduced in the late Nineties for reading web pages efficiently.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 2:57 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Of course they are interpreting.  It reads the screen, but UIA changes the perceived layout of the screen.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What you are complaining about isn't screen interpreting.  it is a decision about what information is included and how you can move through it.  You may disagree with such decisions, but they aren't screen interpreting. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 12:30 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

OK, incorrect in so much that you can move the mouse, but only by routing it.

 

Window-Eyes could not only move by clip, but by graphic as well, this is really powerful.

 

If you told me to click on the third graphic from the top left on the screen, only Window-Eyes would allow me to do this.

 

Whatever happened to screen reading, as opposed to screen interpreting?  Don’t even get me started.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 16:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I know that Window-eyes and JAWS have ways of moving the mouse such as by pixels and in the case of Window-eyes, in some other way that I don't recall now, sort of by structure.  I remembered the term while reviewing my message.  it is by clip, as Window-eyes called it.  But both also allow for moving the mouse around the screen as you do in NVDA.  The difference is that in NVDA, you move the review position, then route the mouse to where you stop the review navigator. 

 

In JAWS, you could move the mouse to the word click.  In NVDA, you would move the review navigator to the word click, then route the mouse.  the mouse ends up in the same place.  I'm simply saying that your statement that the mouse can't be moved from the keyboard in NVDA is factually, not a matter of opinion, not correct.  I am not disagreeing that JAWS and
Window-eyes allow for different, more precise movements.  I'm also not arguing that the Golden Cursor add-on is necessary in NVDA to move the mouse in finer and more varied ways.  But your statement is factually incorrect. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 9:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi Jean,

 

But again, although you answered my question, it just proves to me that I couldn’t find what I wanted, because it is not there, that is moving the mouse using the keyboard.  This is there, if you download Golden Cursor, but I’ve had this in Window-Eyes for years, so I couldn’t imagine managing without it now.  It even exists in JAWS.  Even mouse search doesn’t currently exist in NVDA, so to me, this isn’t screen reading at its best at the moment.  That’s only to me, remember, just one guy who is an advanced screen reader user, and in that respect, as I’ve always said, NVDA, isn’t there yet.  I wish it would be.

 

Another example of this problem is the Izotope plug in installer.  NVDA doesn’t see the screen at all, nothing is read, so you have to OCR it.  When I install with JAWS, it sees the screen, and I can move the mouse to the Next button, but I can’t click it by tabbing nor object naving to it, because NVDA simply doesn’t see the screen, unless I OCR it.  JAWS sees it out of the box.  This is why I still maintain that video hooking is a necessary evil.

 

I know now that many programs use UIA now, so it’s less important, but the ability to manipulate the mouse via the keyboard, is still much needed when using custom apps.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 17:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

In the following response, I shall give desktop layout commands.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know those commands for what we are discussing.

 

There aren't specifically mouse movement keys such as in JAWS.  Read the review section of the manual or the relevant parts.  5.5 is a relevant section.  I'm not sure if there are any others.  You will see such commands as num[pad 9, move to next line, numpad 8, read current line, numpad 7 move to and read previous line.  These are review keys and don't affect the application, they review the screen.  I'm talking about what they do in screen review mode.  They have similar functions when in object navigation but they apply to the object that has focus.

 

To move the mouse to the review position, use the command numpad insert numpad slash.  To left click the mouse, use numpad slash. To right click, use numpad Times, which I believe is also the asterisk.  It's immediately to the right of numpad slash.  

 

If you can't find how to do something in NVDA, it is not good methodology or procedure to assume that it can't be done.  Asking here may provide information about how to do it or of an add-on that does.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 4:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hello Jean,

 

So what are the mouse movement keys via the keyboard then?  I’m sorry I can’t find them.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 08:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

You can move the mouse with the keyboard now.  You can't move it as precisely.  I don't have an opinion about whether the Golden Cursor features should be incorporated into the source code.  But your implication that the mouse can't be moved without the Golden Cursor is not correct.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 2:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Jean,

 

I think the whole Golden Cursor thing should be in NVDA to be honest.  The ability to move the mouse using the keyboard has been in screen readers, since the invention of Windows.

 

Supernova has it, System Access has it, JAWS has it, Window-Eyes was best at it, and so on.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

The search feature should, I think, be in NVDA, not in the Golden Cursor. This is important funcionality and is too important to depend on a user downloading an add-on to have it available.

 

Gene 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

--

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77 Exeter Close

Stevenage

Hertfordshire

SG1 4PW

Tel: +44(0)1438-742286

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Re: About accessable book reading apps

James AUSTIN
 

Hi  Travis

What company do you use? 

Thanks
James


On 21 Feb 2019, at 16:49, Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...> wrote:

the kindle app is accessible both on windows and IOS.  I do use it (quite a lot), though I don't really like it all that much, because there's no way to backup your books, and if something happens to the amazon service, or the kindle app becomes inaccessible, you're out of luck.  I much prefer to download my books and keep them on my hd, so I can back up the books to any service of my choice.  I have one company I've been getting books from for almost 20 years, and each and every one of their books are in plain html format (they have other formats, I choose the html format because it's easiest for me), and I have never once lost a book from them, even though ZI've changed computers several times, and even had severe computer crashes, and you want to know why? because I have the capability of storing my books elsewhere such as cloud storage, external drives and the like.  And I never have to worry that I won't have access to my books anymore if they go out of business, or if they can't sell particular books any longer (as happens regularly with kindle), because I already have them, and they're saved in various places, and I can always go get another copy of my books when something happens.  Amazon, kobo, audible and others don't allow this, which is why I don't like using them.

However, for the moment, kindle works fairly well, and I have the kindle unlimited service, so I read several books a month from the kindle unlimited selections, and enjoy it very much, but even the books I purchase on kindle, I know are eventually going to be inaccessible in one way or another, it's just a matter of time.  I've already lost 5 or 6 books I bought on amazon, because I couldn't back them up, and they are no longer available for download on the kindle app.

It stinks, but what can you do.

On 2/20/2019 9:52 AM, UMIT ERDEM Yigitoglu wrote:
Hello,
I know that the subject is off topic for this group, but I don't know any mailing group that it would be suitable for and I thought that discussing book reading won't hurt us. if I crowd your inbox I'm sorry. 
first of all, just to satisfy my curiosity, how do you read or listen your books usually (e.g, which platform, what programs or apps, what kind of format in) and why?
for myself:
I usually get my books from Bookshare.org and read them with apple books Because it is very easy to use and acsessible. 
Secondly, I like Apple books very much. it is pretty easy to use. However, it is very anoying not to be able to sencronize it with my computor or other divices. I would much prefer having a library that I can reach from everywhere. Adobe digital edditions seems promising at first but IOS app doesn't work with voiceover at all and it has some important accessibility issues in windows with NVDA wich I can tolerate if I could have used it in my phone effectively. do you have any recommendations for a free or cheap app that I can use in at least windows and IOS with singronisation? highlighting text and bookmarking is very important for me too.
I am really sorry about this long post but I think discussing this issue will be a stimulating discussion and is important.
Best regards
 

Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: CTRL-C doesn't work for copying text when NVDA is on

 

unfortunately nvda does not announce the content which i copied if its
more than 1000 or 1024 characters.

On 2/21/19, Roger Stewart <paganus2@...> wrote:
This is already built into nvda. Just use nvda key plus C and if there
is actually anything copied into the clipboard, it will be spoken.
Roger











On 2/21/2019 2:58 AM, zahra wrote:
hi gene.
is there any solution that i can set nvda to read clipboard regardless
of is the text is long or not?
i believe nvda cant read more than 1000 or 1024 characters, but i wish
to have a solution that nvda can reads anything in the clipboard, even
i want to select and copy a large book with hundreds of pages.
in this case, i can simply overcome the problem of not supporting
sayAll in libreoffice.
i can copy and peist my document in firefox or there is one option in
libreoffice that i can temporarily open my document and read in
firefox which has supporting for sayAll, but i need openning two
programs at the same time, one libreoffice and one another program,
firefox, which cause more system usage and power consumpsion.
thanks for any of your help, God bless you!

On 2/20/19, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
The way to do it is to incorporate the add-on that announces this into
the
source of the program or modify it and place it in source. or if
desired,
though it is probably redeveloping the weel, developing the ability
independently in the screen-reader. A lot of users will never know
about
the add-on.

The designers and developers refuse to do so, last I knew, because of
the
claim, incorrect, that the announcement of when text is copied, cut, or
pasted, cannot be reliably known for screen-readers. I have stated
before,
from years of use with JAWS and I know that System Access does as well,
that
this can be accurately done. The add-on, is usually accurate as well.
I'm
not sure if it is every single time but I have never or almost never seen
an
error after something like eight months or more of regular use.

Perhaps others verifying this would finally convince developers that
this
can be accurately done. This is an important ability and should be
added
yesterday..
From: Jackie
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 11:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CTRL-C doesn't work for copying text when NVDA is on


Well, weirdly enough, it does do this in Firefox, but not in Word,
Notepad, etc. They really should make that consistent, & they should
make it suchvvv that announcement could be toggled on/off as desired.

On 2/20/19, marcio via Groups.Io <marcinhorj21@...>
wrote:
I can confirm that, at least without an add-on to do it, NVDA doesn't
announce anything when we perform such operations (cut, copy, paste
etc.).
What did you do to have these announcements?

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/firirinfonfon>

Em 20/02/2019 14:13, Jackie escreveu:
It does announce "copy to clipboard".

On 2/20/19, Roger Stewart <paganus2@...> wrote:
I've been using NVDA since 2012 and never had this problem. However,
NVDA will not announce anything like "copied to clipboard" so you
might
not think anything has happened, but it does still work normally.
When
you paste the text, you'll find it all worked.
Roger











On 2/20/2019 10:54 AM, Ryan Boudwin wrote:
Hey everyone,

I recently swapped from JAWS to NVDA because it seems to work better
for me for certain web applications that I use for work.

However, whenever NVDA is running I have noticed that CTRL-C no
longer
works for copying text to the clipboard.

Has anyone else ever had this problem? Is there a command I need to
bind to a different keystroke to make the normal copy functionality
work again? It works normally whenever NVDA is not running.

Best regards,

Ryan Boudwin




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Re: CTRL-C doesn't work for copying text when NVDA is on

Roger Stewart
 

This is already built into nvda. Just use nvda key plus C and if there is actually anything copied into the clipboard, it will be spoken.
Roger

On 2/21/2019 2:58 AM, zahra wrote:
hi gene.
is there any solution that i can set nvda to read clipboard regardless
of is the text is long or not?
i believe nvda cant read more than 1000 or 1024 characters, but i wish
to have a solution that nvda can reads anything in the clipboard, even
i want to select and copy a large book with hundreds of pages.
in this case, i can simply overcome the problem of not supporting
sayAll in libreoffice.
i can copy and peist my document in firefox or there is one option in
libreoffice that i can temporarily open my document and read in
firefox which has supporting for sayAll, but i need openning two
programs at the same time, one libreoffice and one another program,
firefox, which cause more system usage and power consumpsion.
thanks for any of your help, God bless you!

On 2/20/19, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
The way to do it is to incorporate the add-on that announces this into the
source of the program or modify it and place it in source. or if desired,
though it is probably redeveloping the weel, developing the ability
independently in the screen-reader. A lot of users will never know about
the add-on.

The designers and developers refuse to do so, last I knew, because of the
claim, incorrect, that the announcement of when text is copied, cut, or
pasted, cannot be reliably known for screen-readers. I have stated before,
from years of use with JAWS and I know that System Access does as well, that
this can be accurately done. The add-on, is usually accurate as well. I'm
not sure if it is every single time but I have never or almost never seen an
error after something like eight months or more of regular use.

Perhaps others verifying this would finally convince developers that this
can be accurately done. This is an important ability and should be added
yesterday..
From: Jackie
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 11:37 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] CTRL-C doesn't work for copying text when NVDA is on


Well, weirdly enough, it does do this in Firefox, but not in Word,
Notepad, etc. They really should make that consistent, & they should
make it suchvvv that announcement could be toggled on/off as desired.

On 2/20/19, marcio via Groups.Io <marcinhorj21@...>
wrote:
I can confirm that, at least without an add-on to do it, NVDA doesn't
announce anything when we perform such operations (cut, copy, paste
etc.).
What did you do to have these announcements?

Cheers,
Marcio
Follow me on Twitter <https://twitter.com/firirinfonfon>

Em 20/02/2019 14:13, Jackie escreveu:
It does announce "copy to clipboard".

On 2/20/19, Roger Stewart <paganus2@...> wrote:
I've been using NVDA since 2012 and never had this problem. However,
NVDA will not announce anything like "copied to clipboard" so you might
not think anything has happened, but it does still work normally. When
you paste the text, you'll find it all worked.
Roger











On 2/20/2019 10:54 AM, Ryan Boudwin wrote:
Hey everyone,

I recently swapped from JAWS to NVDA because it seems to work better
for me for certain web applications that I use for work.

However, whenever NVDA is running I have noticed that CTRL-C no longer
works for copying text to the clipboard.

Has anyone else ever had this problem? Is there a command I need to
bind to a different keystroke to make the normal copy functionality
work again? It works normally whenever NVDA is not running.

Best regards,

Ryan Boudwin




--
Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
wp4newbs-request@... with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
visiting the list page at http://www.freelists.org/list/wp4newbs
& check out my sites at www.brighter-vision.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com






Re: About accessable book reading apps

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

the kindle app is accessible both on windows and IOS.  I do use it (quite a lot), though I don't really like it all that much, because there's no way to backup your books, and if something happens to the amazon service, or the kindle app becomes inaccessible, you're out of luck.  I much prefer to download my books and keep them on my hd, so I can back up the books to any service of my choice.  I have one company I've been getting books from for almost 20 years, and each and every one of their books are in plain html format (they have other formats, I choose the html format because it's easiest for me), and I have never once lost a book from them, even though ZI've changed computers several times, and even had severe computer crashes, and you want to know why? because I have the capability of storing my books elsewhere such as cloud storage, external drives and the like.  And I never have to worry that I won't have access to my books anymore if they go out of business, or if they can't sell particular books any longer (as happens regularly with kindle), because I already have them, and they're saved in various places, and I can always go get another copy of my books when something happens.  Amazon, kobo, audible and others don't allow this, which is why I don't like using them.

However, for the moment, kindle works fairly well, and I have the kindle unlimited service, so I read several books a month from the kindle unlimited selections, and enjoy it very much, but even the books I purchase on kindle, I know are eventually going to be inaccessible in one way or another, it's just a matter of time.  I've already lost 5 or 6 books I bought on amazon, because I couldn't back them up, and they are no longer available for download on the kindle app.

It stinks, but what can you do.

On 2/20/2019 9:52 AM, UMIT ERDEM Yigitoglu wrote:
Hello,
I know that the subject is off topic for this group, but I don't know any mailing group that it would be suitable for and I thought that discussing book reading won't hurt us. if I crowd your inbox I'm sorry. 
first of all, just to satisfy my curiosity, how do you read or listen your books usually (e.g, which platform, what programs or apps, what kind of format in) and why?
for myself:
I usually get my books from Bookshare.org and read them with apple books Because it is very easy to use and acsessible. 
Secondly, I like Apple books very much. it is pretty easy to use. However, it is very anoying not to be able to sencronize it with my computor or other divices. I would much prefer having a library that I can reach from everywhere. Adobe digital edditions seems promising at first but IOS app doesn't work with voiceover at all and it has some important accessibility issues in windows with NVDA wich I can tolerate if I could have used it in my phone effectively. do you have any recommendations for a free or cheap app that I can use in at least windows and IOS with singronisation? highlighting text and bookmarking is very important for me too.
I am really sorry about this long post but I think discussing this issue will be a stimulating discussion and is important.
Best regards
 

Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: Golden Cursor question

Gene
 

Expanding abbreviations is the problem of the synthesizer, not the screen-reader.  And what do you mean by your other comments?  they are not precise nor do they take context into account.  Do you use all punctuation all the time?  Do you want to hear every punctuation mark announced?  I doubt it.  Right there, you are violating your first statement of what a screen-reader should do. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

It's always been my opinion that it's a screen reader's job to read the screen, it's my job to interpret what the screen reader tells me is there.  That means, if there's a graphic, the screen reader should tell me it's there, if there's an icon, the screen reader should tell me it's there.  The screen reader should read exactly what's there, and nothing else.  I can't tell you how many hours of productivity time I've lost from stupid little things like my screen reader telling me something was on the screen, when it wasn't actually there.  For example, the voiceover screen reader (and I think NVDA does as well) says volume, regardless of whether the entire word is there or not.  You know, sometimes, vol by itself does not mean volume.  This is of course a minor example of the screen reader saying something that isn't there, but you get the idea.  If the screen says v o l, then the screen reader should say v o l, not volume.  I understand that most folks do not agree with me on this, but it irks the hell out of me when screen readers say things that aren't there, especially when trying to find sorted file lists, One time I had magazine issues that were named differently from the publisher, depending on what year it was published.  I spent a good 10 minutes once trying to figure out why volume 2 issue 1 was out of order, and it turns out the reason was because the screen reader was reading vol as volume, but the publisher didn't spell out volume, only put the 3 letters vol, which changed the sorting order of that particular issue, since the rest of them had volume actually spelled out.  Odd, but there it is.  That was 10 minutes that didn't need to be wasted, because if the screen reader had just read what was on the screen, it would have been immediately apparent what the problem was, and it could have been easily corrected.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I say I've lost hours of productivity due to stupid little things that the screen reader read that didn't exist.

Although I reported it, and it (eventually) got fixed, at one point, when beta testing voiceover on the mac, the screen reader said the dinosaur Stegosaurus as Saint Ego Soars.  Again, a case of not reading what's on the screen, and one that should not have even occurred based on pronunciation rules built in to the screen reader, but these are the kinds of things that happen when your screen readers try to interpret things for you.  I don't like it, and I think it's a waste of time.  It wastes the user's time, and it wastes the developer's time, because they have to put in all the rules that create the speaking rules.  Just leave it alone, and let the damned thing read what's present, let me interpret what it all means.

On 2/20/2019 7:44 AM, Gene wrote:
That's two different questions.  changing the format may be a problem at times, when dealing with sighted people as you say.  but the solution isn't to have the screen-reader not do what it does.  the solution is to teach blind people to find what they are looking for on the page without being reliant on sighted people's instructions.  for example, if the sighted person tells the person that add to cart is in the middle of the page, a little up from the center, an efficient way for a blind person to find it is to disregard the description.  Go to the top of the page and use the screen-reader's find command to search for add to cart or for cart or whatever you want that is expected to find the thing efficiently if the search can be done efficiently.
 
I may find it interesting when a wwell-intentioned sighted person tells me where he/she sees something on the screen.  I don't use the description to find the item.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

I disagree.  Changing the layout is interpreting of course it is.  It’s saying well here’s the info, in the format we think is right, not in the visual format.

 

Whether you like it or not, that is interpreting and becomes sometimes, a problem when interacting with sighted people.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 20 February 2019 10:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Changing the layout isn't interpreting.  Interpreting is when you do something like describe something in the screen-reader's own words.  But this doesn't change what is read.  It is changing the layout to make reading logical for blind people.  There is nothing wrong with this.  it has been done with great success since MSAA was introduced in the late Nineties for reading web pages efficiently.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 2:57 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Of course they are interpreting.  It reads the screen, but UIA changes the perceived layout of the screen.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What you are complaining about isn't screen interpreting.  it is a decision about what information is included and how you can move through it.  You may disagree with such decisions, but they aren't screen interpreting. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 12:30 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

OK, incorrect in so much that you can move the mouse, but only by routing it.

 

Window-Eyes could not only move by clip, but by graphic as well, this is really powerful.

 

If you told me to click on the third graphic from the top left on the screen, only Window-Eyes would allow me to do this.

 

Whatever happened to screen reading, as opposed to screen interpreting?  Don’t even get me started.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 16:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I know that Window-eyes and JAWS have ways of moving the mouse such as by pixels and in the case of Window-eyes, in some other way that I don't recall now, sort of by structure.  I remembered the term while reviewing my message.  it is by clip, as Window-eyes called it.  But both also allow for moving the mouse around the screen as you do in NVDA.  The difference is that in NVDA, you move the review position, then route the mouse to where you stop the review navigator. 

 

In JAWS, you could move the mouse to the word click.  In NVDA, you would move the review navigator to the word click, then route the mouse.  the mouse ends up in the same place.  I'm simply saying that your statement that the mouse can't be moved from the keyboard in NVDA is factually, not a matter of opinion, not correct.  I am not disagreeing that JAWS and
Window-eyes allow for different, more precise movements.  I'm also not arguing that the Golden Cursor add-on is necessary in NVDA to move the mouse in finer and more varied ways.  But your statement is factually incorrect. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 9:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi Jean,

 

But again, although you answered my question, it just proves to me that I couldn’t find what I wanted, because it is not there, that is moving the mouse using the keyboard.  This is there, if you download Golden Cursor, but I’ve had this in Window-Eyes for years, so I couldn’t imagine managing without it now.  It even exists in JAWS.  Even mouse search doesn’t currently exist in NVDA, so to me, this isn’t screen reading at its best at the moment.  That’s only to me, remember, just one guy who is an advanced screen reader user, and in that respect, as I’ve always said, NVDA, isn’t there yet.  I wish it would be.

 

Another example of this problem is the Izotope plug in installer.  NVDA doesn’t see the screen at all, nothing is read, so you have to OCR it.  When I install with JAWS, it sees the screen, and I can move the mouse to the Next button, but I can’t click it by tabbing nor object naving to it, because NVDA simply doesn’t see the screen, unless I OCR it.  JAWS sees it out of the box.  This is why I still maintain that video hooking is a necessary evil.

 

I know now that many programs use UIA now, so it’s less important, but the ability to manipulate the mouse via the keyboard, is still much needed when using custom apps.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 17:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

In the following response, I shall give desktop layout commands.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know those commands for what we are discussing.

 

There aren't specifically mouse movement keys such as in JAWS.  Read the review section of the manual or the relevant parts.  5.5 is a relevant section.  I'm not sure if there are any others.  You will see such commands as num[pad 9, move to next line, numpad 8, read current line, numpad 7 move to and read previous line.  These are review keys and don't affect the application, they review the screen.  I'm talking about what they do in screen review mode.  They have similar functions when in object navigation but they apply to the object that has focus.

 

To move the mouse to the review position, use the command numpad insert numpad slash.  To left click the mouse, use numpad slash. To right click, use numpad Times, which I believe is also the asterisk.  It's immediately to the right of numpad slash.  

 

If you can't find how to do something in NVDA, it is not good methodology or procedure to assume that it can't be done.  Asking here may provide information about how to do it or of an add-on that does.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 4:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hello Jean,

 

So what are the mouse movement keys via the keyboard then?  I’m sorry I can’t find them.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 08:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

You can move the mouse with the keyboard now.  You can't move it as precisely.  I don't have an opinion about whether the Golden Cursor features should be incorporated into the source code.  But your implication that the mouse can't be moved without the Golden Cursor is not correct.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 2:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Jean,

 

I think the whole Golden Cursor thing should be in NVDA to be honest.  The ability to move the mouse using the keyboard has been in screen readers, since the invention of Windows.

 

Supernova has it, System Access has it, JAWS has it, Window-Eyes was best at it, and so on.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

The search feature should, I think, be in NVDA, not in the Golden Cursor. This is important funcionality and is too important to depend on a user downloading an add-on to have it available.

 

Gene 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

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Re: Golden Cursor question

Travis Siegel <tsiegel@...>
 

It's always been my opinion that it's a screen reader's job to read the screen, it's my job to interpret what the screen reader tells me is there.  That means, if there's a graphic, the screen reader should tell me it's there, if there's an icon, the screen reader should tell me it's there.  The screen reader should read exactly what's there, and nothing else.  I can't tell you how many hours of productivity time I've lost from stupid little things like my screen reader telling me something was on the screen, when it wasn't actually there.  For example, the voiceover screen reader (and I think NVDA does as well) says volume, regardless of whether the entire word is there or not.  You know, sometimes, vol by itself does not mean volume.  This is of course a minor example of the screen reader saying something that isn't there, but you get the idea.  If the screen says v o l, then the screen reader should say v o l, not volume.  I understand that most folks do not agree with me on this, but it irks the hell out of me when screen readers say things that aren't there, especially when trying to find sorted file lists, One time I had magazine issues that were named differently from the publisher, depending on what year it was published.  I spent a good 10 minutes once trying to figure out why volume 2 issue 1 was out of order, and it turns out the reason was because the screen reader was reading vol as volume, but the publisher didn't spell out volume, only put the 3 letters vol, which changed the sorting order of that particular issue, since the rest of them had volume actually spelled out.  Odd, but there it is.  That was 10 minutes that didn't need to be wasted, because if the screen reader had just read what was on the screen, it would have been immediately apparent what the problem was, and it could have been easily corrected.

This is the kind of thing I mean when I say I've lost hours of productivity due to stupid little things that the screen reader read that didn't exist.

Although I reported it, and it (eventually) got fixed, at one point, when beta testing voiceover on the mac, the screen reader said the dinosaur Stegosaurus as Saint Ego Soars.  Again, a case of not reading what's on the screen, and one that should not have even occurred based on pronunciation rules built in to the screen reader, but these are the kinds of things that happen when your screen readers try to interpret things for you.  I don't like it, and I think it's a waste of time.  It wastes the user's time, and it wastes the developer's time, because they have to put in all the rules that create the speaking rules.  Just leave it alone, and let the damned thing read what's present, let me interpret what it all means.

On 2/20/2019 7:44 AM, Gene wrote:
That's two different questions.  changing the format may be a problem at times, when dealing with sighted people as you say.  but the solution isn't to have the screen-reader not do what it does.  the solution is to teach blind people to find what they are looking for on the page without being reliant on sighted people's instructions.  for example, if the sighted person tells the person that add to cart is in the middle of the page, a little up from the center, an efficient way for a blind person to find it is to disregard the description.  Go to the top of the page and use the screen-reader's find command to search for add to cart or for cart or whatever you want that is expected to find the thing efficiently if the search can be done efficiently.
 
I may find it interesting when a wwell-intentioned sighted person tells me where he/she sees something on the screen.  I don't use the description to find the item.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Nutt
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

I disagree.  Changing the layout is interpreting of course it is.  It’s saying well here’s the info, in the format we think is right, not in the visual format.

 

Whether you like it or not, that is interpreting and becomes sometimes, a problem when interacting with sighted people.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 20 February 2019 10:13
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Changing the layout isn't interpreting.  Interpreting is when you do something like describe something in the screen-reader's own words.  But this doesn't change what is read.  It is changing the layout to make reading logical for blind people.  There is nothing wrong with this.  it has been done with great success since MSAA was introduced in the late Nineties for reading web pages efficiently.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 2:57 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Of course they are interpreting.  It reads the screen, but UIA changes the perceived layout of the screen.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 18:38
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

What you are complaining about isn't screen interpreting.  it is a decision about what information is included and how you can move through it.  You may disagree with such decisions, but they aren't screen interpreting. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 12:30 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

OK, incorrect in so much that you can move the mouse, but only by routing it.

 

Window-Eyes could not only move by clip, but by graphic as well, this is really powerful.

 

If you told me to click on the third graphic from the top left on the screen, only Window-Eyes would allow me to do this.

 

Whatever happened to screen reading, as opposed to screen interpreting?  Don’t even get me started.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 19 February 2019 16:33
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

I know that Window-eyes and JAWS have ways of moving the mouse such as by pixels and in the case of Window-eyes, in some other way that I don't recall now, sort of by structure.  I remembered the term while reviewing my message.  it is by clip, as Window-eyes called it.  But both also allow for moving the mouse around the screen as you do in NVDA.  The difference is that in NVDA, you move the review position, then route the mouse to where you stop the review navigator. 

 

In JAWS, you could move the mouse to the word click.  In NVDA, you would move the review navigator to the word click, then route the mouse.  the mouse ends up in the same place.  I'm simply saying that your statement that the mouse can't be moved from the keyboard in NVDA is factually, not a matter of opinion, not correct.  I am not disagreeing that JAWS and
Window-eyes allow for different, more precise movements.  I'm also not arguing that the Golden Cursor add-on is necessary in NVDA to move the mouse in finer and more varied ways.  But your statement is factually incorrect. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2019 9:56 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi Jean,

 

But again, although you answered my question, it just proves to me that I couldn’t find what I wanted, because it is not there, that is moving the mouse using the keyboard.  This is there, if you download Golden Cursor, but I’ve had this in Window-Eyes for years, so I couldn’t imagine managing without it now.  It even exists in JAWS.  Even mouse search doesn’t currently exist in NVDA, so to me, this isn’t screen reading at its best at the moment.  That’s only to me, remember, just one guy who is an advanced screen reader user, and in that respect, as I’ve always said, NVDA, isn’t there yet.  I wish it would be.

 

Another example of this problem is the Izotope plug in installer.  NVDA doesn’t see the screen at all, nothing is read, so you have to OCR it.  When I install with JAWS, it sees the screen, and I can move the mouse to the Next button, but I can’t click it by tabbing nor object naving to it, because NVDA simply doesn’t see the screen, unless I OCR it.  JAWS sees it out of the box.  This is why I still maintain that video hooking is a necessary evil.

 

I know now that many programs use UIA now, so it’s less important, but the ability to manipulate the mouse via the keyboard, is still much needed when using custom apps.

 

All the best


Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 17:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

In the following response, I shall give desktop layout commands.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know those commands for what we are discussing.

 

There aren't specifically mouse movement keys such as in JAWS.  Read the review section of the manual or the relevant parts.  5.5 is a relevant section.  I'm not sure if there are any others.  You will see such commands as num[pad 9, move to next line, numpad 8, read current line, numpad 7 move to and read previous line.  These are review keys and don't affect the application, they review the screen.  I'm talking about what they do in screen review mode.  They have similar functions when in object navigation but they apply to the object that has focus.

 

To move the mouse to the review position, use the command numpad insert numpad slash.  To left click the mouse, use numpad slash. To right click, use numpad Times, which I believe is also the asterisk.  It's immediately to the right of numpad slash.  

 

If you can't find how to do something in NVDA, it is not good methodology or procedure to assume that it can't be done.  Asking here may provide information about how to do it or of an add-on that does.

 

Gene  

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 4:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hello Jean,

 

So what are the mouse movement keys via the keyboard then?  I’m sorry I can’t find them.

 

Thanks.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 18 February 2019 08:47
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

You can move the mouse with the keyboard now.  You can't move it as precisely.  I don't have an opinion about whether the Golden Cursor features should be incorporated into the source code.  But your implication that the mouse can't be moved without the Golden Cursor is not correct.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 2:27 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Jean,

 

I think the whole Golden Cursor thing should be in NVDA to be honest.  The ability to move the mouse using the keyboard has been in screen readers, since the invention of Windows.

 

Supernova has it, System Access has it, JAWS has it, Window-Eyes was best at it, and so on.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: 17 February 2019 20:08
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

The search feature should, I think, be in NVDA, not in the Golden Cursor. This is important funcionality and is too important to depend on a user downloading an add-on to have it available.

 

Gene 

----- Original Message -----

From: Steve Nutt

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: [nvda] Golden Cursor question

 

Hi,

 

In my efforts to find out if Golden Cursor is as good as the mouse with JAWS, I’d say not quite.  Let me explain.

 

I just downloaded it, and there seems to be no way to search for a string of text within GC and have the mouse land on that text, so you can just click it, without routing, saving positions, etc.

 

Could this possibly be added?  A Mouse Search in NVDA?  I use Search in JAWS cursor all the time, and it moves the mouse to where I want it.

 

Or am I really stupid and missing it?

 

Someone suggested that GC does more than the JAWS cursor, but I don’t really see that.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

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Re: About accessible book reading apps

ely.r@...
 

Morning,

I too read largely on my iPhone and iPad, including DAISY, Epub, TXT, HTML and PDF text not simple images. I have used Voice Dream reader for years. It is inexpensive and permits bookmarking, highlighting, creating annotations and copying and pasting from text one is reading. It provides and Add feature that can take the user directly to BookShare, ?The Gutenberg project, apps like Pocket, and is included in the “Share” list in Safari.

 

I only wish there were a comparable  app for Microsoft Windows.

Rick

 

I love the convenience  

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of UMIT ERDEM Yigitoglu
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2019 9:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] About accessable book reading apps

 

Hello,
I know that the subject is off topic for this group, but I don't know any mailing group that it would be suitable for and I thought that discussing book reading won't hurt us. if I crowd your inbox I'm sorry. 
first of all, just to satisfy my curiosity, how do you read or listen your books usually (e.g, which platform, what programs or apps, what kind of format in) and why?
for myself:
I usually get my books from Bookshare.org and read them with apple books Because it is very easy to use and acsessible. 
Secondly, I like Apple books very much. it is pretty easy to use. However, it is very anoying not to be able to sencronize it with my computor or other divices. I would much prefer having a library that I can reach from everywhere. Adobe digital edditions seems promising at first but IOS app doesn't work with voiceover at all and it has some important accessibility issues in windows with NVDA wich I can tolerate if I could have used it in my phone effectively. do you have any recommendations for a free or cheap app that I can use in at least windows and IOS with singronisation? highlighting text and bookmarking is very important for me too.
I am really sorry about this long post but I think discussing this issue will be a stimulating discussion and is important.
Best regards
 

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