It's F3 to find again, not control-f, and shift-f3 to find backwards, (again, not control-f), but honestly, if you folks have trouble with control-f, then by all means, ignore it, but you can't go around telling people that the screen reader approach is the only approach for screen reader users, because that's just spreading misinformation.  I almost never use the screen reader find command, I always (99 times out of 100) use the control-f, and it works for me, and it works for all sighted folks, and as far as I'm concerned, that means it works regardless of whether you want to use it or not is immaterial, it's still a valid way to find things, and it should not be taught that the screen reader find is the only method when that is clearly not the case.

Using control f with NVDA is by far one of the worst things anyone without sight can possibly do.

I truly do not understand how this benefits you, or anyone else, as a screen reader user.

I might as well not even bother with it. Sometimes my cursor focus doesn't stay on the relevant item, let alone the actual word I'm looking for. Pressing enter gives you 0 indication you've actually reached an item. Pressing escape (about 2 times out of 10) will focus the NVDA cursor on said item. At best, you might get to see the sentence where the word is if it's a long string of text.  Then, pressing control f once again to find next or previous item is just a futile exercise in patience.

To each their own. Pressing NVDA plus control plus f is a far cleaner, quicker, more efficient, and smarter way to do things.

On 2019-02-26 12:31 p.m., Brian Vogel wrote:

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 01:26 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

I just verified with multiple sighted folks, and each and every one of them uses control-f when they want to find text.

So do I.   What earthly relevance does this have?!!

I can see the highlight move from instance to instance of the string being searched for.   I can know, by sight, exactly where I am on the page.  None of this is relevant to someone using a screen reader.

Dead silence during a search is a horrible, horrible idea as far as I'm concerned.  You clearly differ, and that's fine.  It won't change my position.  I'm not going to encourage a screen reader user to use a technique I know will be problematic from the outset because they can't see.

As I've said a million times:  Tool to task  (which means appropriate tool for the person using it in the circumstance they're using it.  I could use a teaspoon to dig a ditch, but why on earth would I?!)
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 01:37 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I don't mind the silene as I am yelled at if nothingn on that page is found in regard to the string I typed.

Which is fine if you know exactly what to expect.   For anyone who already uses the technique, is comfortable with it, and may be teaching someone else - in which case they'll be teaching the technique completely and noting its pitfalls - more power to you.

This isn't saying that no one can or should use a technique they prefer.   But, you have to be complete about what that technique is.  I would have discovered the NVDA speaks part after hitting Escape ages ago had that been included.   Even though it works, it's also completely counterintuitive as Escape (just as Control) alone will typically shut a screen reader up.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

I have my configuration set to delete trash when I exit the program.  I tstill get asked to compact the trash periodically, especially if I've been deleting a lot of messages, as happens quite often, but I just ignore the message, and continue working.  The next time I start thunderbird, the process starts all over again. I do compact the trash occasionally when I'm not doing anything, because I find that if I'm trying to read messages, and I allow it to compact messages, it tends to put me somewhere else in the message list, and it's a hassle to get back where I was.  For the most part though, I don't bother with the compacting messages more than once a day or so.  It's going to delete my trash when I exit anyhow, so I don't really care if the trash folder gets fragmented.

Using control f with NVDA is by far one of the worst things anyone without sight can possibly do.

I truly do not understand how this benefits you, or anyone else, as a screen reader user.

I might as well not even bother with it. Sometimes my cursor focus doesn't stay on the relevant item, let alone the actual word I'm looking for. Pressing enter gives you 0 indication you've actually reached an item. Pressing escape (about 2 times out of 10) will focus the NVDA cursor on said item. At best, you might get to see the sentence where the word is if it's a long string of text.  Then, pressing control f once again to find next or previous item is just a futile exercise in patience.

To each their own. Pressing NVDA plus control plus f is a far cleaner, quicker, more efficient, and smarter way to do things.

Yes. Configuring this is also accessible from the new Settings app, but you can still change the setting through the classic control panel as well.

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 12:15 PM, Monte Single wrote:

Is win 10 similar?

Not just similar, but the same.  Even if you use Settings as your entry point and drill down, at this juncture you're eventually thrown into the Control Panel Power Options dialog.  It's just faster to go there directly.

It may eventually disappear, but I think that will be a long time coming.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 01:26 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

I just verified with multiple sighted folks, and each and every one of them uses control-f when they want to find text.

So do I.   What earthly relevance does this have?!!

I can see the highlight move from instance to instance of the string being searched for.   I can know, by sight, exactly where I am on the page.  None of this is relevant to someone using a screen reader.

Dead silence during a search is a horrible, horrible idea as far as I'm concerned.  You clearly differ, and that's fine.  It won't change my position.  I'm not going to encourage a screen reader user to use a technique I know will be problematic from the outset because they can't see.

As I've said a million times:  Tool to task  (which means appropriate tool for the person using it in the circumstance they're using it.  I could use a teaspoon to dig a ditch, but why on earth would I?!)
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

I just verified with multiple sighted folks, and each and every one of them uses control-f when they want to find text.  Most of them don't even bother with the mouse, because control-f is the find command, so they hit the key combo instead of navigating through the menus to get to the find command.  So, feel free to use your screen reader only find command if that's what you want to do, but don't tell people that's the only to do things because you're a screen reader user, the standard windows key of control-f works and it works for everyone, screen reader user or not.

Out of curiosity, I just did another test.  I went into forms mode and used control f to search.  I pressed escape after using control f and went back into browse mode.  If you do that, you are on what you searched for.  But that is not how searching in NVDA is intended to be used.  You are intended to stay in browse mode and search using the commands I gave in my last message. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 5:38 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Differences between using the NVDA and the browser commands search on a webpage

I wasn't going to respond to your last message because I hoped that someone who speaks with the authority of a developer would respond.  They still may.  I wouldn't have continued to answer when it became clear that you wouldn't believe what I said if we were not on the list.  But this is an NVDA list with users who range from beginner to advanced.  I shall therefore quote from the manual.  Maybe you will think the manual writers know what they are talking about if you insist that I don't.

 

I tried using control f during the debate to make absolutely sure it doesn't work in browse mode.  It doesn't.  I wasn't moved to the result I was looking for. 

 

From the manual:

Find
NVDA+control+f
Pops up a dialog in which you can type some text to find in the current document
Find next
NVDA+f3
Finds the next occurrence of the text in the document that you previously searched for
Find previous
NVDA+shift+f3
Finds the previous occurrence of the text in the document you previously searched for

 

If control f could be used, don't you think it would have been stated in the manual and would be the command given?  Why give a command different from the general one used in Windows and Windows programs and a command that requires that an extra key be pressed when simply control f can be used. 

 

Gene

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 01:13 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

I open a web page, hit control-F, type in what I'm looking for, press enter, then press escape,

You do realize, Travis, that you omitted that last part about pressing Escape until this very post.  And that's the pivotal trick to getting the method you use to work.

It is also, to me, a very kludgey way to get the same result that every screen reader gives you using its built-in search, and with no more key presses.  Having to press the modifier key as part of the search, rather than Escape after the search, is a heck of a lot more natural to me when working with a screen reader.

But, it's clear now that there is a technique that can be made to work if one chooses to use a straight browser search:  hitting Escape.    I still find the dead silence while I'm looking for something, particularly when that something repeats, particularly unhelpful.  I have been known, on rare occasions, to tell someone something like, "find the fifth occurrence of supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" on the page.  I find that most of them find it much easier when they can hear occurrences one through four as they search through.

To each his or her own.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

Why would you go into forms mode?

I don't change modes at all.  I open a web page, hit control-F, type in what I'm looking for, press enter, then press escape, and poof, my cursor is sitting on the text I just searched for.  F3 repeats the search, and shift-F3 repeats the search (only backwards), and this works in just abut every windows program there is, except obiously those where it wouldn't make sense for it to do so.

I don't understand your insistance that I'm the only one having this result, if it works for me, it should work for anyone.  In fact, I know it works for everyone, included sighted folks, because that's exactly the same way they search for things, only they use the mouse to click on find instead of using the control-F key.

Out of curiosity, I just did another test.  I went into forms mode and used control f to search.  I pressed escape after using control f and went back into browse mode.  If you do that, you are on what you searched for.  But that is not how searching in NVDA is intended to be used.  You are intended to stay in browse mode and search using the commands I gave in my last message. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Gene

Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 5:38 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Differences between using the NVDA and the browser commands search on a webpage

I wasn't going to respond to your last message because I hoped that someone who speaks with the authority of a developer would respond.  They still may.  I wouldn't have continued to answer when it became clear that you wouldn't believe what I said if we were not on the list.  But this is an NVDA list with users who range from beginner to advanced.  I shall therefore quote from the manual.  Maybe you will think the manual writers know what they are talking about if you insist that I don't.

 

I tried using control f during the debate to make absolutely sure it doesn't work in browse mode.  It doesn't.  I wasn't moved to the result I was looking for. 

 

From the manual:

Find
NVDA+control+f
Pops up a dialog in which you can type some text to find in the current document
Find next
NVDA+f3
Finds the next occurrence of the text in the document that you previously searched for
Find previous
NVDA+shift+f3
Finds the previous occurrence of the text in the document you previously searched for

 

If control f could be used, don't you think it would have been stated in the manual and would be the command given?  Why give a command different from the general one used in Windows and Windows programs and a command that requires that an extra key be pressed when simply control f can be used. 

 

Gene

I'm not sure what you'd exect to happen, when you do a find, it's supposed to take you to the location of the found text.  That's exactly what the control-F does, and that's exactly what I'd expect it to do.  Why would I expect it to begin reading from that point, I didn't ask it to read, I asked it to find, and it does that.  If you want to read from where it puts you, use the read commands, and guess what? It starts reading, just like you'd expect.

Maybe it's my unix herritage, but when I put in a command, I expect it to do just what it's supposed to do , and nothing else.  If I tell it to find something, it's because I want to find something, not because I want to read from that found spot to the end of the document, or from the start to where the text was found, the purpose of the find command is to find text, and it does that task very well, and that' all it does, because that's all it's supposed to do.  I don't understand why you would want the command to do something else in addition to finding the text in question.  What's the point?? Especially if I'm looking for that text, because I know it's a link I want to click on, I sure don't want the screen reader to pick up and start reading down to the end of the document, I want it to find the text, and put me on it, and let me decide what to do next, whether that's click on the link, read the next line, or read to end of document, that's up to me, not the find command. It'd be kind of silly to expect anything else.

On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 10:51 PM, Travis Siegel wrote:

Control-F (which is the standard windows find function), works in browse mode.

I truly am not certain what you mean by "works."   If by that you mean finds the search string, sure.  If you also means gives any meaningful feedback when it does so or starts reading from the instance its sitting on if you start reading, then no.

I get silence, dead silence, using Chrome find in Chrome in browse mode and I've tried it on the Commands Quick Reference page and https://nirsoft.net/ since it's very text intensive.  Also just tried it on https://www.experts-exchange.com/articles/33470/Improve-website-response-times-easily-with-DNS-Settings.html with the same result.

I get nothing but dead silence as the search string is found, and found, and found and cannot make NVDA read from where the browser find has landed.

By contrast, if I use the NVDA find every time I land on the search string it's announced (along with a bit of text around it) and, if I commence reading, it goes from there and takes off.

Please tell me what I'm doing wrong.  I certainly wouldn't tell any of my students that there is an equivalence in behavior between browser find and NVDA find on every webpage on which I've done a comparison.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

hi.
the last i remember google maps was accessible with talkback. i'll check on my phone and get back to you 😍

but you can disable the driver in jaws

i tryed to disable it and it worked annyway

Den 2019-02-26 kl. 18:18, skrev Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io:

Relating to the issue with thunderbird and compacting this piece from help support might help.

How can I configure compaction?

In the Tools | Options | Advanced | Network & Disk Space menu, you can:

• disable automatic compaction (which is not recommended because your folders won't be regularly cleaned of deleted messages)
• change the compaction threshold (for instance if you deal with a large volume of messages, you may use a larger threshold)

This is a message ideally suited to the blindphones group.

Send a message to:  blindphones+help@groups.io
and you'll receive back a group description along with all the subscribe/unsubscribe and other addresses commonly used for group interaction.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 

This happens to me as well.

--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762