Date   

Re: Punctuation/Symbol pronunciation

Jackie
 

Brian, you queried:
"In any case, my main concern at the moment is if one has a series of
symbols that compose a word, but those symbols are not letters, and
you want to be certain that these symbols are always spoken each and
every time they're encountered, what does one set the level to in
order to ensure that.  They'd never be passed to the synth since it's
the symbol name (replacement text) that will need to be spoken."

I think this would be a better place for a dictionary entry rather
than using the symbol pronunciation list. Just my $.02, & likely worth
precisely what you paid for it.

I hope I've helped you after inadvertently sending you on a snipe
hunt. Good luck w/your project.

On 3/17/19, Jackie McBride <abletec@gmail.com> wrote:
Brian, maybe this analogy will help. I'm going to use the analogy of
access controls. Because WordPress is what I'm most familiar with, I'm
going to use its levels, ie, administrator, editor, author,
subscriber. Clearly, the administrator is like the 700lb
gorrilla--where does he sit in your living room? Anywhere he wants!
The editor can do everything an admin can except install software &
update the site. An author can do whatever s/he wants w/his/her own
posts, but no one else's, & a subscriber can read & comment.

If you're looking at a symbol in the symbol pronunciation list, & it's
set to level none, then it will always be read, no matter NVDA's
punctuation setting. It's like the administrator. If a symbol is set
to some, it's like the editor. If the user has the punctuation level
set to none, it won't be read, but if it's set to some or higher, then
it will be. Most is like the author, ie, if a symbol is set to "most"
or "all" in the pronunciation list, then it will be read when the
punctuation level is set to "most" or "all". If the symbol is set to
all, then it will only be read if NVDA punctuation is set to all. It's
least privileged, as it were, rather like a WordPress subscriber.

Programmatically, using a pseudocode, it might look something like:
if symbol-encountered
{
check-symbol-pronunciation-list
if symbol-says-none #we don't even have to think about it
{
read-symbol
break
}
if symbol-says-some && NVDA-punctuation >= some
{
read-symbol
break
}
if symbol-says-most && NVDA-punctuation >= most
{
read-symbol
break
}
if symbol-says-all && NVDA-punctuation == all
{
read-symbol
break
}
}

Does that help any?

On 3/17/19, Andre Fisher <andrefisher729@gmail.com> wrote:
In that case, you'd set the symbol level to none, and to never send the
symbol to the synthesizer.

Level 1: None (only those symbols that are deemed highly essential will
be
reported.
Level 2: Some: Some additional symbols will be reported. All emoji fall
in
this category. Therefore, to not hear them, set it to none.
Level 3: Most: This is the default for JAWS screen reader, things like
dashes, parentheses, brackets, quotes etc. will now be spoken.
Level 4: All: All symbols will be reported. This includes the commas,
periods, question marks and exclamation points.
Level 5: Character: These symbols will only be reported when moving by
character.




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Re: Punctuation/Symbol pronunciation

Jackie
 

Brian, maybe this analogy will help. I'm going to use the analogy of
access controls. Because WordPress is what I'm most familiar with, I'm
going to use its levels, ie, administrator, editor, author,
subscriber. Clearly, the administrator is like the 700lb
gorrilla--where does he sit in your living room? Anywhere he wants!
The editor can do everything an admin can except install software &
update the site. An author can do whatever s/he wants w/his/her own
posts, but no one else's, & a subscriber can read & comment.

If you're looking at a symbol in the symbol pronunciation list, & it's
set to level none, then it will always be read, no matter NVDA's
punctuation setting. It's like the administrator. If a symbol is set
to some, it's like the editor. If the user has the punctuation level
set to none, it won't be read, but if it's set to some or higher, then
it will be. Most is like the author, ie, if a symbol is set to "most"
or "all" in the pronunciation list, then it will be read when the
punctuation level is set to "most" or "all". If the symbol is set to
all, then it will only be read if NVDA punctuation is set to all. It's
least privileged, as it were, rather like a WordPress subscriber.

Programmatically, using a pseudocode, it might look something like:
if symbol-encountered
{
check-symbol-pronunciation-list
if symbol-says-none #we don't even have to think about it
{
read-symbol
break
}
if symbol-says-some && NVDA-punctuation >= some
{
read-symbol
break
}
if symbol-says-most && NVDA-punctuation >= most
{
read-symbol
break
}
if symbol-says-all && NVDA-punctuation == all
{
read-symbol
break
}
}

Does that help any?

On 3/17/19, Andre Fisher <andrefisher729@gmail.com> wrote:
In that case, you'd set the symbol level to none, and to never send the
symbol to the synthesizer.

Level 1: None (only those symbols that are deemed highly essential will be
reported.
Level 2: Some: Some additional symbols will be reported. All emoji fall in
this category. Therefore, to not hear them, set it to none.
Level 3: Most: This is the default for JAWS screen reader, things like
dashes, parentheses, brackets, quotes etc. will now be spoken.
Level 4: All: All symbols will be reported. This includes the commas,
periods, question marks and exclamation points.
Level 5: Character: These symbols will only be reported when moving by
character.



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Re: Punctuation/Symbol pronunciation

Andre Fisher
 

In that case, you'd set the symbol level to none, and to never send the symbol to the synthesizer.

Level 1: None (only those symbols that are deemed highly essential will be reported.
Level 2: Some: Some additional symbols will be reported. All emoji fall in this category. Therefore, to not hear them, set it to none.
Level 3: Most: This is the default for JAWS screen reader, things like dashes, parentheses, brackets, quotes etc. will now be spoken.
Level 4: All: All symbols will be reported. This includes the commas, periods, question marks and exclamation points.
Level 5: Character: These symbols will only be reported when moving by character.


Re: Punctuation/Symbol pronunciation

 

I need to step away from this for the evening.  I have a history as a programmer and I still cannot comprehend in which orders these levels ensure that something is said versus when it isn't.

Based on Tony's description these seem to be "skip speaking the item levels," with none meaning always spoken, while what I'm getting from your description is the opposite.

It would be so much easier for me if these were numbers rather than English descriptions.   At least then the hierarchy order would be clear.

In any case, my main concern at the moment is if one has a series of symbols that compose a word, but those symbols are not letters, and you want to be certain that these symbols are always spoken each and every time they're encountered, what does one set the level to in order to ensure that.  They'd never be passed to the synth since it's the symbol name (replacement text) that will need to be spoken.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Punctuation/Symbol pronunciation

Andre Fisher
 

Brian,

It's as simple as this. Take none, some, most, all and even character as levels on a ladder, with none being the lowest level. Now, let's say that we have the dash (-) sign. By default, this symbol is on the most level. So, it stands on the third level of the ladder. If I set my NVDA to speak punctuations on that level and any level above, it will speak that symbol. If I set NVDA to none or some, it won't. The level symbols that are pronounced is preset by NVDA, but you can customize these levels, and other features of symbols, such as the name, and if the symbol should be affected by the synthesizer. In the previous example, the dash (-) symbol is set to most, but to never be affected by the synthesizer. I set the dash so that it is always affected, so a pause sometimes occurs when it is encountered.

So, none, some, most, all and character are NVDA created preset levels, with symbols placed on each step or category.


Re: how do I silence?

Andre Fisher
 

This can be done using the Configuration Profiles. Press Control+P, press Alt+N for New, Tab to current application (name), then press enter and close the dialog. Then, make your changes to the settings while still in the application, then save the configuration with NVDA+Control+C. That's it.


Re: Thunderbird with NVDA

Robert Logue
 

Thanks Gene and Rosemary.

Those tips really worked. 


Bob


On 2019-03-17 6:50 p.m., Gene wrote:
If you change to reading mail either as text or as simple HTML, that will probably stop those notices. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2019 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird with NVDA

Yes. I use read to end a lot. Especially when opening a message from the list: Or, when Thunderbird bugs me about unloaded images and stops automatic reading.

  I just wanted an easier way to suppress all those titles and notifications. 


Thanks Rosemarie. Opening messages in a new tab works.  Changes my workflow a bit but I can handle it.


Cheers.


Bob




On 2019-03-16 10:27 a.m., Gene wrote:
You can use the read to end command.  I saw someone propose another solution but I don't know how well it works.  it is changing whether messages open in a new tab or window or whatever the choice is.  You can see if changing it works.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2019 10:45 AM
Subject: [nvda] Thunderbird with NVDA

I have the latest Thunderbird.


Is there a way to suppress reading the title of message when it opens? 
NVDA and Jaws both read the title as much as 3 times when I open a
message from the list.

I think one time is because the message pain is opening.  Then the next
is the screen reader saying the title of the window. Then saying the
title of the document.  This gets very old fast.  I have automatic
document reading on.


Please point me in to documentation that might help.





Re: how do I silence?

Howard Traxler <howard@...>
 

Curtus, I think you mean beeping for the progress bar?  You can use NVDA key plus U to make a temporary change.  Whether it stays changed, I don't know.


Howard

On 3/17/2019 7:53 PM, Curtis Delzer wrote:
There are windows when I wish the wonderful NVDA beeps not to happen, while continuing them in others. How do I do this?


Re: how do I silence?

 

You can easily do just this using profiles.

It's a bit of a technical explanation, so I'll leave it up to others help you on this.

Hopefuly they will comment. I just can't do it right now, though if nobody does I will later on.


Cheers,
Marcio AKA Starboy
Follow or add me on Facebook

Em 17/03/2019 21:53, Curtis Delzer escreveu:

There are windows when I wish the wonderful NVDA beeps not to happen, while continuing them in others. How do I do this?


Re: Thunderbird with NVDA

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Gene,

 

Yes, that’s correct. Setting thunderbird to simple HTML or plain text will stop those notices.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2019 5:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird with NVDA

 

If you change to reading mail either as text or as simple HTML, that will probably stop those notices. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2019 6:49 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird with NVDA

 

Yes. I use read to end a lot. Especially when opening a message from the list: Or, when Thunderbird bugs me about unloaded images and stops automatic reading.

  I just wanted an easier way to suppress all those titles and notifications. 

 

Thanks Rosemarie. Opening messages in a new tab works.  Changes my workflow a bit but I can handle it.

 

Cheers.

 

Bob

 

 

 

On 2019-03-16 10:27 a.m., Gene wrote:

You can use the read to end command.  I saw someone propose another solution but I don't know how well it works.  it is changing whether messages open in a new tab or window or whatever the choice is.  You can see if changing it works.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2019 10:45 AM

Subject: [nvda] Thunderbird with NVDA

 

I have the latest Thunderbird.


Is there a way to suppress reading the title of message when it opens? 
NVDA and Jaws both read the title as much as 3 times when I open a
message from the list.

I think one time is because the message pain is opening.  Then the next
is the screen reader saying the title of the window. Then saying the
title of the document.  This gets very old fast.  I have automatic
document reading on.


Please point me in to documentation that might help.



 


Re: skim mode

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Monty,

 

I don’t know about all documents but I know if you hit up-arrow, the entire message is read out in thunderbird. Skim mode is a keyboard setting. You hit NVDAkey control K to get to the keyboard settings. Then you tab to the checkbox that says “skim mode” and hit the space bar to check it.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Monte Single
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2019 5:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] skim mode

 

In a recent Thunderbird message from RoseMarie, she mentioned :skim mode:  while reading posts.

What is skim mode  and does it work in all text documents?

Thanks,

Monte

 


how do I silence?

Curtis Delzer
 

There are windows when I wish the wonderful NVDA beeps not to happen, while continuing them in others. How do I do this?

--


Curtis Delzer
HS
W B 6 H E F
Rialto, CA


skim mode

Monte Single
 

In a recent Thunderbird message from RoseMarie, she mentioned :skim mode:  while reading posts.

What is skim mode  and does it work in all text documents?

Thanks,

Monte


Re: Thunderbird with NVDA

Gene
 

If you change to reading mail either as text or as simple HTML, that will probably stop those notices. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2019 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird with NVDA

Yes. I use read to end a lot. Especially when opening a message from the list: Or, when Thunderbird bugs me about unloaded images and stops automatic reading.

  I just wanted an easier way to suppress all those titles and notifications. 


Thanks Rosemarie. Opening messages in a new tab works.  Changes my workflow a bit but I can handle it.


Cheers.


Bob




On 2019-03-16 10:27 a.m., Gene wrote:
You can use the read to end command.  I saw someone propose another solution but I don't know how well it works.  it is changing whether messages open in a new tab or window or whatever the choice is.  You can see if changing it works.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2019 10:45 AM
Subject: [nvda] Thunderbird with NVDA

I have the latest Thunderbird.


Is there a way to suppress reading the title of message when it opens? 
NVDA and Jaws both read the title as much as 3 times when I open a
message from the list.

I think one time is because the message pain is opening.  Then the next
is the screen reader saying the title of the window. Then saying the
title of the document.  This gets very old fast.  I have automatic
document reading on.


Please point me in to documentation that might help.





Re: Punctuation/Symbol pronunciation

Gene
 

Let's say you want period to be spoken at the none level and you don't want any other punctuation spoken at that level.  You set period for none.  You have now tailored punctuation so that period and nothing else will be spoken at the none level.  So you can tailor exactly what is spoken at what level.  A mark set to none will be spoken at none and in all other levels.  A punctuation mark that is set to most will be spoken at most and all, etc.
 
Gene

----- Original message -----
From: Jackie
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2019 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Punctuation/Symbol pronunciation

Actually, Brian, it's just the symbols themselves. None & all are
pretty obvious, I suspect. The "some" level reads commonly needed
symbols, ie, @, #, %, &, *, +, < >, etc. These are symbols which, if
not read, could cause the text to not make sense. This is NVDA's
default setting.

"Most" steps it up a bit, reading things like ;, -, (, ), :, ~, `, but
not commonly used sentence-ending symbols, like ., ?, , & !. Those are
read at the "all" level.

On 3/17/19, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
> Jackie,
>
>          Actually, no, at least it doesn't make any sense to me.   Those
> level values are associated with each and every individual punctuation or
> symbol.
>
>          For instance, if someone had a dollar sign symbol, what is the
> difference if this is paired with each of the levels (none being pretty
> obvious if it means, as I suspect and Andre described, ignore it and never
> pronounce it).
>
>          The levels do not seem to be defining behavior for a given symbol
> relative to any other symbol, but for the symbol itself based on some sort
> of context determined by its placement in the text.  I just can't fathom
> how.
>
> --
>
> Brian *-* Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
>
> *A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for
> illusion is deep.*
>
>           ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back
>
>
>
>


--
Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
wp4newbs-request@... with 'subscribe' in the Subject field OR by
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Re: Punctuation/Symbol pronunciation

Tony Malykh
 

Brian,
Let me try to describe it in other words.
We have 4 punctuation verbosity settings that can be cycled through using NVDA+P. They are None, Some, Most and All. All is clear - just read all punctuation signs. But for many people that's too much punctuation. So we want to make some of the "not so important" punctuation signs to be ignored by speech synthesizer. There comes "Most" setting.  How do we decide which punctuation signs are to be ignored when the setting is set to most? The ones that are marked "All" in the punctuation dialog. And the ones that will be still pronounced are the ones that are marked with "Most" and above ("All", "None")
Same thing for the next verbosity level "Some". Only the characters marked "Some" and above ("All") will be pronounced.
I assume in some cases you want to ignore all punctuation, so you set punctuation verbosity to "None". In this case only the characters marked with level "None" will be reported, such as fractions, which are  arguably should never be skipped over.

Hope this explanation helps.
--Tony

On 3/17/2019 5:04 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Jackie,

          Unless I see a technical document describing the interactions I will never understand this.   For the vulgur fractions, for instance, things like the one-third or five-eighths symbols these are all noted as level "none" and have nothing for the preservation level (though I get that if it's none you wouldn't likely pass it to the synth, so I presume the default absent a value is never).    I don't understand how a recipe that uses the one-third symbol, which is not uncommon before the word cup, would ever read correctly.    The one-third symbol in symbols.dic, is given a replacement value of one-third, but a level of none.

          By the way, and I don't think I introduced this error, the five-eighths symbol has a replacement value of five eighths, but there is no tab after the S in eighths and it runs straight into the word none that follows it.  All others have that tab after the replacement value.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back

 

 


Re: Learning page number in MS Word

Monte Single
 

I have not tried numbering  pages in a m s word doc recently.  As I recall,  if there was a doc without page numbers,  you first had to select the text you want  page numbered, insert page breaks and then insert page numbers.

Page numbers were not added, by default, as the document was created. 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of enes saribas
Sent: March-17-19 4:09 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Learning page number in MS Word

 

I was told by sighted that normally page number does not exist in word documents, and that you are required to add them.

On 3/17/2019 6:05 PM, Abbie Taylor wrote:

Press NVDA plus End to read the status bar. NVDA will not only tell you what page you're on but read other information about the document. Hope that helps.
--
Abbie Johnson Taylor, Author
http://www.abbiejohnsontaylor.com
http://abbiescorner.wordpress.com
abbietaylor945@...


Re: Thunderbird with NVDA

Robert Logue
 

Thanks Gene.  I try to be sure the message pain (f8( is not open

Bob


On 2019-03-16 7:39 p.m., Gene wrote:
I'm not sure how you are reading mail.  Is the view pane opened?  If it is, pressing tab may be taking you from the message list to the view pane and the message is being read there.       
 
Gene.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2019 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird with NVDA

I am using it now, the subject does not repeat, and using tabs seems to read the entire message using NVDA I press delete to go to the next message, etc.

Curtis Delzer 
HS
W B 6 H E F
Rialto, CA

On 3/16/2019 9:27 AM, Gene wrote:
You can use the read to end command.  I saw someone propose another solution but I don't know how well it works.  it is changing whether messages open in a new tab or window or whatever the choice is.  You can see if changing it works.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2019 10:45 AM
Subject: [nvda] Thunderbird with NVDA

I have the latest Thunderbird.


Is there a way to suppress reading the title of message when it opens? 
NVDA and Jaws both read the title as much as 3 times when I open a
message from the list.

I think one time is because the message pain is opening.  Then the next
is the screen reader saying the title of the window. Then saying the
title of the document.  This gets very old fast.  I have automatic
document reading on.


Please point me in to documentation that might help.





Re: Thunderbird with NVDA

Robert Logue
 

Thanks. You know. I always seem to ignore that setting. Coming from Jaws, I should know that.


Bob


On 2019-03-16 10:28 a.m., Rosemarie Charring wrote:

Having the keyboard set to skim mode and pressing up-arrow on a message works too.

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Gene
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2019 9:26 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird with NVDA

 

You can use the read to end command.  I saw someone propose another solution but I don't know how well it works.  it is changing whether messages open in a new tab or window or whatever the choice is.  You can see if changing it works.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Robert Logue

Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2019 10:45 AM

Subject: [nvda] Thunderbird with NVDA

 

I have the latest Thunderbird.


Is there a way to suppress reading the title of message when it opens? 
NVDA and Jaws both read the title as much as 3 times when I open a
message from the list.

I think one time is because the message pain is opening.  Then the next
is the screen reader saying the title of the window. Then saying the
title of the document.  This gets very old fast.  I have automatic
document reading on.


Please point me in to documentation that might help.



 


Re: Punctuation/Symbol pronunciation

 

Jackie,

          Unless I see a technical document describing the interactions I will never understand this.   For the vulgur fractions, for instance, things like the one-third or five-eighths symbols these are all noted as level "none" and have nothing for the preservation level (though I get that if it's none you wouldn't likely pass it to the synth, so I presume the default absent a value is never).    I don't understand how a recipe that uses the one-third symbol, which is not uncommon before the word cup, would ever read correctly.    The one-third symbol in symbols.dic, is given a replacement value of one-third, but a level of none.

          By the way, and I don't think I introduced this error, the five-eighths symbol has a replacement value of five eighths, but there is no tab after the S in eighths and it runs straight into the word none that follows it.  All others have that tab after the replacement value.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.

          ~ Saul Bellow, To Jerusalem and Back