Date   

Re: NVDACon 2019 - community survey

Adriani Botez
 

Dear all,

 

note that the survey will end on Thursday next week at latest. Please don’t forget to complete it.

 

For the translators: please spread it in your user lists and in your countries to give as many people as possible the chance to obtain for their favorite weekend.

 

Thanks and best regards

Adriani

 

 

 

Von: adriani.botez@... <adriani.botez@...>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. April 2019 18:14
An: nvda@nvda.groups.io; nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io; nvda-translations@groups.io; intl@NVDACon.groups.io
Cc: info@...; 'James Teh' <jamie@...>; 'Daniel Mayr' <info@...>; 'Pawolleck, Sascha, Landratsamt-Altoetting' <Sascha.Pawolleck@...>
Betreff: NVDACon 2019 - community survey

 

Dear all,

 

as we are preparing this year’s NVDACon, our goal this year is to engage the community in the preparation process more than before. For this purpose we have created a small survey which should reveal an optimal date for the conference, convenient for most of us.

 

In case you intend to participate at the conference, please complete this survey by chosing the weekend or weekends in august which are most convenient for you. You can choose more than one option. The conference will take place during the weekend which has been chosen by most people.

 

Please take two minutes and access the survey at

https://doodle.com/poll/sd5ubgyrbhibm5bw

 

To complete the survey, please don’t use firefox because the survey is not completely accessible in that browser.

 

Feel free to distribute this survey throughout your networks, so we reach as many people as possible.

 

We are lloking forward to having you on this year’s NVDACon!

 

 

Best regards

 

 

Adriani Botez

Cochair of NVDACon

NVDA Comunity Conference (NVDACon)

Website: https://www.nvdacon.org/

Email: info@...

Teamtalk server: tt://nvdacon.org/?tcpport=10333&udpport=10333

 

 


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Devin Prater
 

This will all be a little more manageable when the Addons site can “interface” with NVDA to allow showing a list of installable admins, from which a user can simply choose from and install. I know, this will take a lot of time. After that’s done, though, in the “welcome to NVDA” dialog, there can be mention of this functionality.

On Apr 28, 2019, at 2:46 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 03:31 PM, Shaun Oliver wrote:
Joseph's points are what I would consider bloatware.
Then you and I have a very different definition of bloatware.  Software bloat or Feature bloat/creep, sure.   Though I can find definitions of bloatware that make it synonymous with software bloat/feature creep, most do not.  Bloatware is a class of its own and is generally considered to be PUPs where the initial P can be lopped off and that are supplied by your OEM or installed as part of the loathsome practice of bundling.

And, when it comes to feature bloat, one man's bloat is another man's godsend.  I don't find, in general, that software developers sit around trying to come up with new features for their own sake.  In good development shops they're driven by user requests and in many bad shops by marketing/management demanding something "new and shiny" whether there is any existing need or demand for it.

Over time computer users have to upgrade hardware, and not only to keep up with software, but that's a big part of it.  Now that it's incredibly cheap (relatively speaking) to get new hardware that can handle virtually anything you typical user who web browses, e-mails, uses an office suite, plus a few other low demand programs the time is never coming for de-bloating of feature bloat, because in almost all cases what's bloat to you is gold to me or vice versa when you have a big enough user pool.

I'm bowing out now, though, as this conversation is getting really meta-NVDA, at least from my perspective, rather than being about how to use it in any way. 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

           ~ Edward Abbey

 
 


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 03:31 PM, Shaun Oliver wrote:
Joseph's points are what I would consider bloatware.
Then you and I have a very different definition of bloatware.  Software bloat or Feature bloat/creep, sure.   Though I can find definitions of bloatware that make it synonymous with software bloat/feature creep, most do not.  Bloatware is a class of its own and is generally considered to be PUPs where the initial P can be lopped off and that are supplied by your OEM or installed as part of the loathsome practice of bundling.

And, when it comes to feature bloat, one man's bloat is another man's godsend.  I don't find, in general, that software developers sit around trying to come up with new features for their own sake.  In good development shops they're driven by user requests and in many bad shops by marketing/management demanding something "new and shiny" whether there is any existing need or demand for it.

Over time computer users have to upgrade hardware, and not only to keep up with software, but that's a big part of it.  Now that it's incredibly cheap (relatively speaking) to get new hardware that can handle virtually anything you typical user who web browses, e-mails, uses an office suite, plus a few other low demand programs the time is never coming for de-bloating of feature bloat, because in almost all cases what's bloat to you is gold to me or vice versa when you have a big enough user pool.

I'm bowing out now, though, as this conversation is getting really meta-NVDA, at least from my perspective, rather than being about how to use it in any way. 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

           ~ Edward Abbey

 

 


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Devin Prater
 

I think the sentiment in regarding the installed application of JAWS, FS Reader, the training materials, the drivers, OCR, and any Vocalizer voices added on.

On Apr 28, 2019, at 2:40 PM, Lenron <lenron93@...> wrote:

I was about to say even the installer for Jaws is only a couple
hundred mb. I have my own reasons for not liking it so much these
days. Part of that is the stupid video driver thing doesn't seem to
like my pc so much.

On 4/28/19, Shaun Oliver <blindman75@...> wrote:
which is the point I was making in my original post. Joseph's points are
what I would consider bloatware.

unnecessary memory usage, decreased performance, size of the core
executable program and I do not, by any means mean the installer, the
overall footprint on your pc and operating system. that's what I mean by
bloatware. it is all well and good to say that the size of the installer
doesn't or won't increase that much, but, you do nto run the installer
on a daily basis. if you do, then I'd have to question your operating
practises.


On 29/04/2019 04:34, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 02:58 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely
performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not.

Distilled to a bumper sticker: Software design and engineering is
hard! (and quite a few bits regarding how and why are not obvious to
those who haven't done it)

--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*/Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell./*

~ Edward Abbey




--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762



locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Lenron
 

I was about to say even the installer for Jaws is only a couple
hundred mb. I have my own reasons for not liking it so much these
days. Part of that is the stupid video driver thing doesn't seem to
like my pc so much.

On 4/28/19, Shaun Oliver <blindman75@...> wrote:
which is the point I was making in my original post. Joseph's points are
what I would consider bloatware.

unnecessary memory usage, decreased performance, size of the core
executable program and I do not, by any means mean the installer, the
overall footprint on your pc and operating system. that's what I mean by
bloatware. it is all well and good to say that the size of the installer
doesn't or won't increase that much, but, you do nto run the installer
on a daily basis. if you do, then I'd have to question your operating
practises.


On 29/04/2019 04:34, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 02:58 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely
performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not.

Distilled to a bumper sticker:  Software design and engineering is
hard!   (and quite a few bits regarding how and why are not obvious to
those who haven't done it)

--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763

*/Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell./*

~ Edward Abbey



--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762


Re: File Explorer and voicing file attributes

Chris Mullins
 

Jeff
You can read the date and size attributes in Details view by using right
arrow when positioned on a particular file. This pre-supposes you have
these attributes selected for display. The size data is not available on
folder entries but can be located by pressing alt+enter whilst positioned on
the folder in the file explorer list. Having them voiced automatically
would be too verbose IMO.

Cheers
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jeff
Samco
Sent: 28 April 2019 17:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] File Explorer and voicing file atrributes

My reference point is Window-Eyes since I converted from it to NVDA.
When in File Explorer and arrowing up and down a file list, WE
additionally announces things like file size, date of modification,
etc. I don't get that with NVDA. Is there an NVDA setting I can
change to correct this?

Thanks,
Jeff


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Shaun Oliver
 

which is the point I was making in my original post. Joseph's points are what I would consider bloatware.

unnecessary memory usage, decreased performance, size of the core executable program and I do not, by any means mean the installer, the overall footprint on your pc and operating system. that's what I mean by bloatware. it is all well and good to say that the size of the installer doesn't or won't increase that much, but, you do nto run the installer on a daily basis. if you do, then I'd have to question your operating practises.


On 29/04/2019 04:34, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 02:58 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not.
Distilled to a bumper sticker:  Software design and engineering is hard!   (and quite a few bits regarding how and why are not obvious to those who haven't done it)
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

           ~ Edward Abbey

 

 


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I understand that. But think about the effects of integrating add-ons into NVDA, especially those that are no longer maintained (or maintained for a while and no more), causes conflicts (including commands), known for causing performance issues without tweaking them, and so on.

There is a well-known quote within software engineering discipline that states, “programs spend 90 percent of their time in 10 percent of its codebase”. Imagine that 10 percent being consumed by add-ons, and I’m sure you’ll get the idea.

Another phrase states, “premature optimization is root of all evil”. In short, don’t tweak one’s code unless you know what you are getting yourself into. I had to learn this the hard way – it wasn’t until last year that I found that I can drastically improve performance of my add-ons if I used facilities provided by Windows API, NVDA itself, or a combination of both. In one instance, I observed up to 20 times speedup in one of my add-ons, and that was with an app module (optimizing add-ons, and for that matter, Python 2/3 code requires hours of dedication, including willingness to go beyond just reading source code; for this reason, whenever I set out to optimize my add-ons, I disassemble bytecode; for anyone tempted to just ship binary Python modules, I guarantee that at least one member of the add-ons community (including I) will disassemble pyc files).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

That's something I can't comment on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not. For every global plugin that gets integrated (or not), NVDA must loop through them to figure out what to do with a specific NVDA object. Different add-ons have different ways of dealing with events – some won’t pass on events to other subsystems.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.

 

If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.

 

If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

  • Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
  • Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
  • Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
  • Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
  • Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
  • Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Gene
 

That's something I can't comment on. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hi,

I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not. For every global plugin that gets integrated (or not), NVDA must loop through them to figure out what to do with a specific NVDA object. Different add-ons have different ways of dealing with events – some won’t pass on events to other subsystems.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.

 

If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.

 

If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

  • Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
  • Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
  • Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
  • Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
  • Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
  • Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 02:58 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not.
Distilled to a bumper sticker:  Software design and engineering is hard!   (and quite a few bits regarding how and why are not obvious to those who haven't done it)
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

           ~ Edward Abbey

 

 


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not. For every global plugin that gets integrated (or not), NVDA must loop through them to figure out what to do with a specific NVDA object. Different add-ons have different ways of dealing with events – some won’t pass on events to other subsystems.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.

 

If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.

 

If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

  • Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
  • Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
  • Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
  • Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
  • Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
  • Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Gene
 

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.
 
If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.
 
If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

  • Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
  • Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
  • Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
  • Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
  • Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
  • Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: File Explorer and voicing file attributes

 

in nvda preferences, object presentation, the first item is report tooltip.
press space on it to activate it and then press tab to okay.
this item unfortunately is not activated by default, and many users
dont know how they can informations about there files and folders.
hope that help, God bless you!

On 4/28/19, Jeff Samco <jsamco@...> wrote:
My reference point is Window-Eyes since I converted from it to NVDA.
When in File Explorer and arrowing up and down a file list, WE
additionally announces things like file size, date of modification,
etc. I don't get that with NVDA. Is there an NVDA setting I can
change to correct this?

Thanks,
Jeff




--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali


locked NVDA add on's RSS feed.

 
Edited

This RSS feed will show you new add ons published but it will not group
add ons by last updated. To check for updates, get the add on updater.

https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.rss

Add ons are posted manually to this list as well. Mods have not integrated the feed into this group, so subscribe to the feed above.


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Lenron
 

remote should totally be rolled into NVDA.

On 4/28/19, Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@...> wrote:
I knew about the page, but I’ve never seen an Outlook add-on, neither there
before nor discussed on list. This is great, and if it helps with the
control+. (Period) in speaking the next message automatically that it lands
on, then Outlook may become my email client of choice on Windows, if using
it because even better than using Gmail.

On Apr 28, 2019, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 09:56 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
Wait, there's an addon for Outlook?
When I see things like this my jaw drops? The official NVDA Add-Ons
Page, whose address has been posted hundreds of times, is:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html.
<https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html>

Each add-on is presented, by title, as a link on the page. If you, any
you, who've been an NVDA user and participant on any NVDA related
list/forum for a long time have never bothered to go there and do a
cruise-through of the links to see what's what you have no one to blame
but yourselves.

I'm not about to give the actual link in this case, but the fact that
there is an add-on named Outlook Extended answers that question.

[The above may not apply to Devin if that comment was in jest, but it
certainly applies to any member who's been on this list for at least a
month. Go look, and if you need to activate an add-on title to get a
further description of its function, well . . . ]
--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
~ Edward Abbey





--
Lenron Brown
Cell: 985-271-2832
Skype: ron.brown762


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 12:35 PM, Devin Prater wrote:
I knew about the page, but I’ve never seen an Outlook add-on, neither there before nor discussed on list.
I honestly can't say which specific add-ons I've seen discussed at length over time, but a great deal of them come up again and again.   Also, though it's not like it's weekly, new ones do get added with some regularity.

Any NVDA user had ought to make it a habit to do a quarterly quick visit to the NVDA Add-Ons Page and do a quick cruise through to see what may have appeared that wasn't there before.  (And that's even though some of these newly added/updated add-ons get discussed in this very list.   If you've put yourself on "no mail" when you're on vacation, and an announcement comes through, it's lost to you forever unless you are in the habit of doing a quick check of the NVDA Group Archive page to see what's happened in your absence.)

And for those looking for add-ons within a specific non-English language community, visiting the appropriate page(s) for same, which have been discussed recently.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

           ~ Edward Abbey

 

 


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

  • Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
  • Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
  • Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
  • Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
  • Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
  • Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Gene
 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.
 
I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.
 
Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.
 
It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.
 
Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hi Vlad,


I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.


As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.


...just my opinion.


On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Devin Prater
 

I knew about the page, but I’ve never seen an Outlook add-on, neither there before nor discussed on list. This is great, and if it helps with the control+. (Period) in speaking the next message automatically that it lands on, then Outlook may become my email client of choice on Windows, if using it because even better than using Gmail.

On Apr 28, 2019, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 09:56 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
Wait, there's an addon for Outlook?
When I see things like this my jaw drops?   The official NVDA Add-Ons Page, whose address has been posted hundreds of times, is:  https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html.

Each add-on is presented, by title, as a link on the page.   If you, any you, who've been an NVDA user and participant on any NVDA related list/forum for a long time have never bothered to go there and do a cruise-through of the links to see what's what you have no one to blame but yourselves.

I'm not about to give the actual link in this case, but the fact that there is an add-on named Outlook Extended answers that question.

[The above may not apply to Devin if that comment was in jest, but it certainly applies to any member who's been on this list for at least a month.  Go look, and if you need to activate an add-on title to get a further description of its function, well . . . ]
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

           ~ Edward Abbey

 
 


File Explorer and voicing file attributes

Jeff Samco
 

My reference point is Window-Eyes since I converted from it to NVDA. When in File Explorer and arrowing up and down a file list, WE additionally announces things like file size, date of modification, etc. I don't get that with NVDA. Is there an NVDA setting I can change to correct this?

Thanks,
Jeff