Date   

locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

David Moore
 

I agree that most add-ons should stay separate addons, because it is so easy to manually add them through the add-ons site.

With Add-on updater, we have the best of two worlds.

People can install as many add-ons as they want, and update them through the add-on updater, and it is so easy to manage the addons you have installed through the manage add-ons in the tools menu!

I personally do not care if NVDA core stays as it is, and all other features come in the form of addons that are put on the add-ons web site.

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 6:28 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda featuresproposal and wider discussion

 

Hi

 

if we go down that track which ones should become part of NVDA?

 

I think also when people come from other screen readers some of those functions are part of that screen reader and they expect it to be the same for nvda.

 

But i also notice at times the new user tries to do the short cuts the same as there old screen reader instead of learning nvdas ones.

 

Quite a few of the old add ons were before the add on website went up to house them all in the one area which makes a lot of sense.

The people who made them probably have moved on or may be doing other projects or at that time just wanted that extra functionality in that program.

So they may never be updated or allowed to by law depending on how it was done.

 

some of the add ons have been put into NVDA I guess you would call them core ones.

 

 

a add on yes i would like some one to work on is a graphics labeler in NVDA. the more i use my android phone there are some programs that need labeling so we can use them properly. at times you contact the person making the software and they will label those buttons but at other times you never hear back from them. it is a catch 22 problem.

Other wise you uninstall the program and look for another which is labled correctly etc.

 

Another add on I think that jumps you to the notification area down near the clock a lot of people are not ware there are windows commands to do the same thing. Maybe not bring them up in a list but i still have more control doing it the windows way.

Does this one need to be part of NVDA? if i want it i can get the add on.

 

The add ons have to meet a certain criteria to go up on the add on website let alone been put into nvda.

Should the VLC add on become part of NVDA i do not think so but knowing there is a add on i can install for it is good.

 

So back to the catch 22 problem.

 

People also have to remember that NVDA has not been around as long as some others. At least NVDA can benefit any one who needs a screen reader at no extra cost on top of there computer unless they donate to this worthy project.

 

But they from what i hear from others in the adaptive field say they have been catching up very quickly with other screen readers that have been around longer.

Plus NVDA can benefit many more than just the visually impaired and blind it also is useful with dyslexics etc.

 

NVACCESS  does not have the budget like some and the man poer.

 

we just have to be greatful there are people in our community who have the knowledge to make add ons and to provide patches etc into NVDA.

And what they do is using there time and knowledge to do it. Are they been payed? I do not think so unless it was some thing like the remote add on but most if not all are made and donated for free to help out the project.

 

So which add ons should NVDA use? that is the million dollar question I would leave that up to NVACCESS or the people in the know of what is been used the most. I guess when you download a add on it might tell them how many people might use a certain add on that benefit the most.

 

The weather plus add on is great but part of nvda? know as we have seen when things have broken with where they get the information from.

 

I guess all our needs are different.

 

Gene nz

 

 

 

All some people need to do is look around NVDA and see what there is. People who say they do not know about the nvda add on website must of not been in the add on manager in nvda and looked around. Unless they have removed it not there is a get add ons button that takes the person to the add on website to get ones they might want to use.

 

I am happy doing it this way.

 

The add on updater add on is great once you have installed the add ons and for them to update to the latest version of it.

 

Make it part of NVDA yes but also does not bother me if it is a add on as long as i know where to get them from.

 

 

On 29/04/2019 9:37 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

Yes agreed,   it does no harm and I use it on some web sites that play music and I need to hear the screen reader no leave it as it is!

On 28/04/2019 13:57, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

Cheers,

Vlad.



--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
 
Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which location (or locations) are nearest to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa).
To find out which software is installed on the APNK network please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/software To find out how to use NVDA on APNK computers please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/nvda
 

To find out which software is available on the Christchurch City Library network, and how to start the NVDA screen reader, please go to the following links. Software available  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faq/computers/#faq_5884  How to start the NVDA screen reader on Christchurch City Library computers  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faqs/what-screen-reader-software-is-available/
 
To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


 


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


if we go down that track which ones should become part of NVDA?


I think also when people come from other screen readers some of those functions are part of that screen reader and they expect it to be the same for nvda.


But i also notice at times the new user tries to do the short cuts the same as there old screen reader instead of learning nvdas ones.


Quite a few of the old add ons were before the add on website went up to house them all in the one area which makes a lot of sense.

The people who made them probably have moved on or may be doing other projects or at that time just wanted that extra functionality in that program.

So they may never be updated or allowed to by law depending on how it was done.


some of the add ons have been put into NVDA I guess you would call them core ones.



a add on yes i would like some one to work on is a graphics labeler in NVDA. the more i use my android phone there are some programs that need labeling so we can use them properly. at times you contact the person making the software and they will label those buttons but at other times you never hear back from them. it is a catch 22 problem.

Other wise you uninstall the program and look for another which is labled correctly etc.


Another add on I think that jumps you to the notification area down near the clock a lot of people are not ware there are windows commands to do the same thing. Maybe not bring them up in a list but i still have more control doing it the windows way.

Does this one need to be part of NVDA? if i want it i can get the add on.


The add ons have to meet a certain criteria to go up on the add on website let alone been put into nvda.

Should the VLC add on become part of NVDA i do not think so but knowing there is a add on i can install for it is good.


So back to the catch 22 problem.


People also have to remember that NVDA has not been around as long as some others. At least NVDA can benefit any one who needs a screen reader at no extra cost on top of there computer unless they donate to this worthy project.


But they from what i hear from others in the adaptive field say they have been catching up very quickly with other screen readers that have been around longer.

Plus NVDA can benefit many more than just the visually impaired and blind it also is useful with dyslexics etc.


NVACCESS  does not have the budget like some and the man poer.


we just have to be greatful there are people in our community who have the knowledge to make add ons and to provide patches etc into NVDA.

And what they do is using there time and knowledge to do it. Are they been payed? I do not think so unless it was some thing like the remote add on but most if not all are made and donated for free to help out the project.


So which add ons should NVDA use? that is the million dollar question I would leave that up to NVACCESS or the people in the know of what is been used the most. I guess when you download a add on it might tell them how many people might use a certain add on that benefit the most.


The weather plus add on is great but part of nvda? know as we have seen when things have broken with where they get the information from.


I guess all our needs are different.


Gene nz




All some people need to do is look around NVDA and see what there is. People who say they do not know about the nvda add on website must of not been in the add on manager in nvda and looked around. Unless they have removed it not there is a get add ons button that takes the person to the add on website to get ones they might want to use.


I am happy doing it this way.


The add on updater add on is great once you have installed the add ons and for them to update to the latest version of it.


Make it part of NVDA yes but also does not bother me if it is a add on as long as i know where to get them from.



On 29/04/2019 9:37 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes agreed,   it does no harm and I use it on some web sites that play music and I need to hear the screen reader no leave it as it is!

On 28/04/2019 13:57, Vlad Dragomir wrote:
Hello,

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

Cheers,

Vlad.





--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
 
Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which location (or locations) are nearest to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa).
To find out which software is installed on the APNK network please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/software To find out how to use NVDA on APNK computers please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/nvda
 

To find out which software is available on the Christchurch City Library network, and how to start the NVDA screen reader, please go to the following links. Software available  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faq/computers/#faq_5884  How to start the NVDA screen reader on Christchurch City Library computers  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faqs/what-screen-reader-software-is-available/
 
To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

David Moore
 

Yes!

I use audio ducking on the fly all the time with NVDA!

When I am on a web site with media, I just press the key command to turn it on, and then I turn it back off when I am done listening to the streaming or other audio.

I love audio ducking, and I use it with other screen readers as well.

I would absolutely not want that to go in NVDA!

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 5:37 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda featuresproposal and wider discussion

 

Yes agreed,   it does no harm and I use it on some web sites that play

music and I need to hear the screen reader no leave it as it is!

 

On 28/04/2019 13:57, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

> Hello,

>

> Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be

> indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would

> include Screen Curtain among those.

>

> On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking

> function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube 

> or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader

> without having to close everything else.

>

> Let’s see what other opinions come up!

>

> Cheers,

>

> Vlad.

>

>

 

 

 


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Shaun Oliver
 

if I remember correctly, wasn't NVDA remote brought about because we didn't have a jaws tandum like feature? something I have to say, has really been a godsend when I've had to utilise it.

On 29/04/2019 07:11, erik burggraaf wrote:
I would agree with you 100%, but I think that the fact that nvda is freely accessible to everyone somewhat mitigates the drawbacks of a proprietary system.

things have come a long way in the last few years. Now for example, you can use zoom to send the audio from one computer to another remotely for training and tech support purposes.  I don't know about iPhone, but at least if you have an Android device, you can remotely access your nvda enabled computer using an Android app that plays on nvda remote.

Gone are the days of Jaws tandem, and window Wise remote.


On April 28, 2019 5:16:09 PM "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:

Hmmm before we role remote into nvda, we need to have the list of
servers we can use.

To be honest, remote shouldn't be just for nvda, it should be a stand
alone program that can be used by us and not just in nvda and we should
be able  to have servers we can use and also the ability to create
secured servers ourself similar to teamtalk client and server packages
but thats only what I think of course.



On 29/04/2019 5:42 AM, Lenron wrote:
remote should totally be rolled into NVDA.

On 4/28/19, Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> wrote:
I knew about the page, but I’ve never seen an Outlook add-on, neither there
before nor discussed on list. This is great, and if it helps with the
control+. (Period) in speaking the next message automatically that it lands
on, then Outlook may become my email client of choice on Windows, if using
it because even better than using Gmail.

On Apr 28, 2019, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 09:56 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
Wait, there's an addon for Outlook?
When I see things like this my jaw drops?   The official NVDA Add-Ons
Page, whose address has been posted hundreds of times, is:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html.
<https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html>

Each add-on is presented, by title, as a link on the page. If you, any
you, who've been an NVDA user and participant on any NVDA related
list/forum for a long time have never bothered to go there and do a
cruise-through of the links to see what's what you have no one to blame
but yourselves.

I'm not about to give the actual link in this case, but the fact that
there is an add-on named Outlook Extended answers that question.

[The above may not apply to Devin if that comment was in jest, but it
certainly applies to any member who's been on this list for at least a
month.  Go look, and if you need to activate an add-on title to get a
further description of its function, well . . . ]
--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
            ~ Edward Abbey










locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

I would agree with you 100%, but I think that the fact that nvda is freely accessible to everyone somewhat mitigates the drawbacks of a proprietary system.

things have come a long way in the last few years. Now for example, you can use zoom to send the audio from one computer to another remotely for training and tech support purposes. I don't know about iPhone, but at least if you have an Android device, you can remotely access your nvda enabled computer using an Android app that plays on nvda remote.

Gone are the days of Jaws tandem, and window Wise remote.

On April 28, 2019 5:16:09 PM "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com> wrote:

Hmmm before we role remote into nvda, we need to have the list of
servers we can use.

To be honest, remote shouldn't be just for nvda, it should be a stand
alone program that can be used by us and not just in nvda and we should
be able  to have servers we can use and also the ability to create
secured servers ourself similar to teamtalk client and server packages
but thats only what I think of course.



On 29/04/2019 5:42 AM, Lenron wrote:
remote should totally be rolled into NVDA.

On 4/28/19, Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> wrote:
I knew about the page, but I’ve never seen an Outlook add-on, neither there
before nor discussed on list. This is great, and if it helps with the
control+. (Period) in speaking the next message automatically that it lands
on, then Outlook may become my email client of choice on Windows, if using
it because even better than using Gmail.

On Apr 28, 2019, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 09:56 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
Wait, there's an addon for Outlook?
When I see things like this my jaw drops? The official NVDA Add-Ons
Page, whose address has been posted hundreds of times, is:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html.
<https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html>

Each add-on is presented, by title, as a link on the page. If you, any
you, who've been an NVDA user and participant on any NVDA related
list/forum for a long time have never bothered to go there and do a
cruise-through of the links to see what's what you have no one to blame
but yourselves.

I'm not about to give the actual link in this case, but the fact that
there is an add-on named Outlook Extended answers that question.

[The above may not apply to Devin if that comment was in jest, but it
certainly applies to any member who's been on this list for at least a
month. Go look, and if you need to activate an add-on title to get a
further description of its function, well . . . ]
--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
~ Edward Abbey





locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Kevin Cussick
 

Yes agreed, it does no harm and I use it on some web sites that play music and I need to hear the screen reader no leave it as it is!

On 28/04/2019 13:57, Vlad Dragomir wrote:
Hello,
Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.
On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.
Let’s see what other opinions come up!
Cheers,
Vlad.


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

I guess jean that was what I was sort of saying in a round about way.

Maybe I didn't do a good job of it.



On 29/04/2019 9:13 AM, Gene wrote:
I didn't say all add-ons should be integrated.  I think there are certain very popular or important ones that should be integrated or installed with the program. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Jean, thats pardon my english, a piss poor way to view it.

If this is the case maybe we should put the addons repo in a more prominant position and other things, its allready on the manage addons page, maybe the welcome screen, maybe as a tip at startup for first time users, maybe if you think its needed well.

Nvda can run just as well without addons in most cases.

In fact on slower systems I use, I have had to run it with no addons but essential ones like the win10 apps addon.

I do think, that certain addons should come preinstalled or at least be installed after install like addon updater and win10apps if using win10 for example and addon updater is a must.

But no user needs every addon.

Most of my addons are program support addons for example.

I have a few features that I like and thats it.

Others have synths, others have different configurations.

Out of all the addons, I could go with just program supports and to be honest if I had to I could go without most addons at all with exception of win10 apps, addon updater, calibre, dropbox, if interpritors, vlc, goldwave, teamtalk and winamp.

Those are what I use others may have different things to use.

I have used nvda without addons for ages before I used it with and sure I know about addons a lot more and use a lot more but don't use everything as an addon.

I

Still like my speech synths to be a universally accessible for all programs thing for example.

To be honest, if people have that much trouble thinking about addons, maybe we should call them plugins or even extentions like every other brouser manufacturer is calling them who knows.

I personally think we are doing enough but I guess we could do more.

We can only tell people where to get addons.

The only private addon I use is the japanese translater addon from blindaudiogames.com which is quite crappy and useless if you don't play certain games in a certain language and have an account with that site for example.

Which I do.

Its not a translater, just for a few games in japanese from certain authors in a certain situation.

Since nvda can have custom addons to, well.

As for letting people know about where they can get addons, depending on what they are doing, Usually and this is for software etc I use on other's system I tend to install everything they need, and or may need then keep it updated, now if the user wants to know they can ask me.

A lot really don't they just want it working.

Addons may be an exception to that rule I grant you that at least.

I havn't heard anyone saying that addons are not in a more prominant position.

Saying that, this does bring a small spin in my original discussion.

I know quite well bar the alegal repos full of pirated stuff that the nvda addons site is not the only repo for addons, in fact I do think nvda's addons and download sites should be mirrored in case we ever lost the main site or got it hacked or something.

And we should encourage more repos of addons maybe have on the addons site, github and other places for authors repos for those interested, maybe expand the pages with a list of addon devs, a bio about each, maybe even have all that under different pages as well as the addons themselves.

We should have the ability for nvda to download addons without people going to the site to initially get them, for example I have never needed to go to addons.mozilla.org to get addons though I can do it that way of course.



On 29/04/2019 1:40 AM, Gene wrote:
I think that perhaps the most important reason to add certain add-ons to the program itself is that a lot of NVDA users don't know, and won't know, that add-ons exist or where to get them. 
 
I'm very curious if anyone has any idea what percent of NVDA users use add--ons and knows where to get them and how to see what is available.  It may not be practical to do such a study but I'd be surprised if more than thirty or forty percent of NVDA users use add-ons.  And some of those users may use ones that instructors told them about or installed.  The user may not know where to get them or where to find out what is available.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

I can agree with that joseph.

I approached this from a middle class guy in a family home with a fast connection and yeah I know quite a few in new zealand not like that at all so can respect your points.

And I am sure that my argument is just what a general user sees that has quite a lot and not others.



On 29/04/2019 8:22 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

On one hand, it could satisfy some. However, when we think deeply, it is a form of exclusionary practice, another variation of comments from the post that started our discussion. It is exclusionary because for certain parts of the world, bandwidth means money, and file size is also something people need to factor into.

Also, when we do include add-ons into NVDA core, we need to think about something that wasn’t brought up throughout our discussion: accountability. It isn’t enough to know Python to code useful and effective add-ons; one must also show accountability too, because by producing add-ons, authors are saying that they are willing to take full responsibility for their actions until they are ready to pass it onto others. Why do I steer people to creating add-ons before working on NVDA core itself? Part of that is because new people will need to learn about accountability, and to serve as a way of socialization into this culture.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Given your comments and peoples' concerns over bloat, perhaps another approach would be better, perhaps far better.  This would allow for two versions of NVDA to be made available for each version.  A long time ago, Window-eyes didn't integrate add-ons.  It had the installer install them when the program was installed but they were still add-ons.  I don't mean that every add-on was installed that users developed.  I mean that certain add-ons were installed. 

 

an approach like that, where certain add-ons are installed in the version offered with add-ons and none in the version without and the user would choose.  That might satisfy everyone, at least as much as is possible.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 2:26 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I understand that. But think about the effects of integrating add-ons into NVDA, especially those that are no longer maintained (or maintained for a while and no more), causes conflicts (including commands), known for causing performance issues without tweaking them, and so on.

There is a well-known quote within software engineering discipline that states, “programs spend 90 percent of their time in 10 percent of its codebase”. Imagine that 10 percent being consumed by add-ons, and I’m sure you’ll get the idea.

Another phrase states, “premature optimization is root of all evil”. In short, don’t tweak one’s code unless you know what you are getting yourself into. I had to learn this the hard way – it wasn’t until last year that I found that I can drastically improve performance of my add-ons if I used facilities provided by Windows API, NVDA itself, or a combination of both. In one instance, I observed up to 20 times speedup in one of my add-ons, and that was with an app module (optimizing add-ons, and for that matter, Python 2/3 code requires hours of dedication, including willingness to go beyond just reading source code; for this reason, whenever I set out to optimize my add-ons, I disassemble bytecode; for anyone tempted to just ship binary Python modules, I guarantee that at least one member of the add-ons community (including I) will disassemble pyc files).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

That's something I can't comment on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not. For every global plugin that gets integrated (or not), NVDA must loop through them to figure out what to do with a specific NVDA object. Different add-ons have different ways of dealing with events – some won’t pass on events to other subsystems.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.

 

If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.

 

If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

  • Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
  • Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
  • Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
  • Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
  • Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
  • Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Wouldn't that put loads of extra work on the devs though.

I don't want to really do that, list rule is that I was off my trolley and I can accept that.

I am not going to do what some of the so called users on audiogames.net forum do which is to start a rant swear flame fest and get banned.

Then come back and complain about getting banned.



On 29/04/2019 8:11 AM, Gene wrote:
Given your comments and peoples' concerns over bloat, perhaps another approach would be better, perhaps far better.  This would allow for two versions of NVDA to be made available for each version.  A long time ago, Window-eyes didn't integrate add-ons.  It had the installer install them when the program was installed but they were still add-ons.  I don't mean that every add-on was installed that users developed.  I mean that certain add-ons were installed. 
 
an approach like that, where certain add-ons are installed in the version offered with add-ons and none in the version without and the user would choose.  That might satisfy everyone, at least as much as is possible.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Hi,

I understand that. But think about the effects of integrating add-ons into NVDA, especially those that are no longer maintained (or maintained for a while and no more), causes conflicts (including commands), known for causing performance issues without tweaking them, and so on.

There is a well-known quote within software engineering discipline that states, “programs spend 90 percent of their time in 10 percent of its codebase”. Imagine that 10 percent being consumed by add-ons, and I’m sure you’ll get the idea.

Another phrase states, “premature optimization is root of all evil”. In short, don’t tweak one’s code unless you know what you are getting yourself into. I had to learn this the hard way – it wasn’t until last year that I found that I can drastically improve performance of my add-ons if I used facilities provided by Windows API, NVDA itself, or a combination of both. In one instance, I observed up to 20 times speedup in one of my add-ons, and that was with an app module (optimizing add-ons, and for that matter, Python 2/3 code requires hours of dedication, including willingness to go beyond just reading source code; for this reason, whenever I set out to optimize my add-ons, I disassemble bytecode; for anyone tempted to just ship binary Python modules, I guarantee that at least one member of the add-ons community (including I) will disassemble pyc files).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

That's something I can't comment on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 1:58 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not. For every global plugin that gets integrated (or not), NVDA must loop through them to figure out what to do with a specific NVDA object. Different add-ons have different ways of dealing with events – some won’t pass on events to other subsystems.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.

 

If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.

 

If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

  • Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
  • Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
  • Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
  • Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
  • Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
  • Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


Re: Windows 10 mail

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi


The website where that page was or i mean still is was down for about 12 hours or so last week. But from what i see has been back up since. It looked as though it was there server end.


i guess that is what you get some times when you only pay for a domain name and not the hosting of it but they give me scope to play with if needed.


Gene nz

Gene nz


On 29/04/2019 8:36 AM, Robert Doc Wright godfearer wrote:

I believe you were correct Brian.

accessibilitycentral.net/How%20to%20use%20the%20Mail%20app%20in%20Window...

is the site I went to.

 

                                                                                                                                If all I have left in this world is God, I have everything!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2019 9:59 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 mail

 

I would also say that often merely trying again straight away fixes it. I

notice it for example on pages containing adverts where the google server is

not fast enough in responding resulting in a page of some data but with bits

of it reporting server not found or 404 error in the middle of the text. Its

not browser specific, so I imagine its latency when the net is busy.

As you say without the link we are , um blind!

Brian

 

bglists@...

Sent via blueyonder.

Please address personal E-mail to:-

briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'

in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Friday, April 26, 2019 4:33 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 mail

 

 

> On 26 Apr 2019, at 1:29, Robert Doc Wright godfearer wrote:

>> I found a link on Google for using windows 10 mail with NVDA.

>  And yu did not give the link so none of us can test it. Also what

> browser are you running? I expect to see  a full on bug report if able.

>

>

 

 

 

 

--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
 
Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which location (or locations) are nearest to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa).
To find out which software is installed on the APNK network please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/software To find out how to use NVDA on APNK computers please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/nvda
 

To find out which software is available on the Christchurch City Library network, and how to start the NVDA screen reader, please go to the following links. Software available  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faq/computers/#faq_5884  How to start the NVDA screen reader on Christchurch City Library computers  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faqs/what-screen-reader-software-is-available/
 
To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Well we will eventually run out of keys, I can't say I use every key in my addons to be honest.



On 29/04/2019 6:58 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not. For every global plugin that gets integrated (or not), NVDA must loop through them to figure out what to do with a specific NVDA object. Different add-ons have different ways of dealing with events – some won’t pass on events to other subsystems.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.

 

If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.

 

If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

  • Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
  • Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
  • Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
  • Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
  • Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
  • Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

I have noticed that using nvda on a slower computer with all the addons I use and I don't use that many not more than 20-30, will cause the system to become bloated and slow but we are talking about 3rd gen units and lower here where nvda struggles to run with 1 addon loaded.

On my fast gaming workstation I don't notice it.

I do think though saying that, that the biggest addons are speech synths which is why I don't ever use them in addon form but then I only like certain synths.

Espeak has been my go to synth for general purpose.

Yes I do use something for long strings of text but usually I don't need human speech, I need something I can understand and use well enough.

But thats another can of worms I won't open, and I appear to have opened one and knocked over a few bee hives in the process anyway.

I admit last nights argument was a bit vague to be honest I didn't know what would exactly happen when I put it out I just noticed the list wasn't fielding that much descussion and decided that it would be a good time to start a topic.

It does appear that dispite my good intentions everyone likes things as they are, heck I can understand that myself.

I just don't want to much of a shock when we hit 2019.2 and later and py3 but if it happens then it happens I guess.



On 29/04/2019 6:53 AM, Gene wrote:
The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.
 
If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.
 
If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

  • Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
  • Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
  • Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
  • Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
  • Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
  • Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hmmm before we role remote into nvda, we need to have the list of servers we can use.

To be honest, remote shouldn't be just for nvda, it should be a stand alone program that can be used by us and not just in nvda and we should be able  to have servers we can use and also the ability to create secured servers ourself similar to teamtalk client and server packages but thats only what I think of course.

On 29/04/2019 5:42 AM, Lenron wrote:
remote should totally be rolled into NVDA.

On 4/28/19, Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@gmail.com> wrote:
I knew about the page, but I’ve never seen an Outlook add-on, neither there
before nor discussed on list. This is great, and if it helps with the
control+. (Period) in speaking the next message automatically that it lands
on, then Outlook may become my email client of choice on Windows, if using
it because even better than using Gmail.

On Apr 28, 2019, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 09:56 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
Wait, there's an addon for Outlook?
When I see things like this my jaw drops? The official NVDA Add-Ons
Page, whose address has been posted hundreds of times, is:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html.
<https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html>

Each add-on is presented, by title, as a link on the page. If you, any
you, who've been an NVDA user and participant on any NVDA related
list/forum for a long time have never bothered to go there and do a
cruise-through of the links to see what's what you have no one to blame
but yourselves.

I'm not about to give the actual link in this case, but the fact that
there is an add-on named Outlook Extended answers that question.

[The above may not apply to Devin if that comment was in jest, but it
certainly applies to any member who's been on this list for at least a
month. Go look, and if you need to activate an add-on title to get a
further description of its function, well . . . ]
--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
~ Edward Abbey





locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Gene
 

I didn't say all add-ons should be integrated.  I think there are certain very popular or important ones that should be integrated or installed with the program. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Jean, thats pardon my english, a piss poor way to view it.

If this is the case maybe we should put the addons repo in a more prominant position and other things, its allready on the manage addons page, maybe the welcome screen, maybe as a tip at startup for first time users, maybe if you think its needed well.

Nvda can run just as well without addons in most cases.

In fact on slower systems I use, I have had to run it with no addons but essential ones like the win10 apps addon.

I do think, that certain addons should come preinstalled or at least be installed after install like addon updater and win10apps if using win10 for example and addon updater is a must.

But no user needs every addon.

Most of my addons are program support addons for example.

I have a few features that I like and thats it.

Others have synths, others have different configurations.

Out of all the addons, I could go with just program supports and to be honest if I had to I could go without most addons at all with exception of win10 apps, addon updater, calibre, dropbox, if interpritors, vlc, goldwave, teamtalk and winamp.

Those are what I use others may have different things to use.

I have used nvda without addons for ages before I used it with and sure I know about addons a lot more and use a lot more but don't use everything as an addon.

I

Still like my speech synths to be a universally accessible for all programs thing for example.

To be honest, if people have that much trouble thinking about addons, maybe we should call them plugins or even extentions like every other brouser manufacturer is calling them who knows.

I personally think we are doing enough but I guess we could do more.

We can only tell people where to get addons.

The only private addon I use is the japanese translater addon from blindaudiogames.com which is quite crappy and useless if you don't play certain games in a certain language and have an account with that site for example.

Which I do.

Its not a translater, just for a few games in japanese from certain authors in a certain situation.

Since nvda can have custom addons to, well.

As for letting people know about where they can get addons, depending on what they are doing, Usually and this is for software etc I use on other's system I tend to install everything they need, and or may need then keep it updated, now if the user wants to know they can ask me.

A lot really don't they just want it working.

Addons may be an exception to that rule I grant you that at least.

I havn't heard anyone saying that addons are not in a more prominant position.

Saying that, this does bring a small spin in my original discussion.

I know quite well bar the alegal repos full of pirated stuff that the nvda addons site is not the only repo for addons, in fact I do think nvda's addons and download sites should be mirrored in case we ever lost the main site or got it hacked or something.

And we should encourage more repos of addons maybe have on the addons site, github and other places for authors repos for those interested, maybe expand the pages with a list of addon devs, a bio about each, maybe even have all that under different pages as well as the addons themselves.

We should have the ability for nvda to download addons without people going to the site to initially get them, for example I have never needed to go to addons.mozilla.org to get addons though I can do it that way of course.



On 29/04/2019 1:40 AM, Gene wrote:
I think that perhaps the most important reason to add certain add-ons to the program itself is that a lot of NVDA users don't know, and won't know, that add-ons exist or where to get them. 
 
I'm very curious if anyone has any idea what percent of NVDA users use add--ons and knows where to get them and how to see what is available.  It may not be practical to do such a study but I'd be surprised if more than thirty or forty percent of NVDA users use add-ons.  And some of those users may use ones that instructors told them about or installed.  The user may not know where to get them or where to find out what is available.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

I agree, I don't read the installer, I read the whatsnew mainly and thats it I don't read the manuals these days.



On 29/04/2019 3:36 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

No one will read that final dialogue. I don't eve rread the finished dialogues of software except to search for any errors.if info is missed, it's my fault but I don't have to time to speed read through a finished dialogue.

Take care

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 28 Apr 2019, at 7:33, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Gene,


You make a good point, but that could easily be rectified if during the install, there is a reference screen that says something like: "You have just installed the basic NVDA package.  NVDA is a flexible program and there are additional add-ons which can expand the functionality of NVDA for such programs as Winamp, Thunderbird, ETC.  The add-ons can be found at..."  This would inform anyone installing the program that major enhancements can be added to NVDA functionality by the use of add-ons.


On 4/28/2019 9:40 AM, Gene wrote:
I think that perhaps the most important reason to add certain add-ons to the program itself is that a lot of NVDA users don't know, and won't know, that add-ons exist or where to get them. 
 
I'm very curious if anyone has any idea what percent of NVDA users use add--ons and knows where to get them and how to see what is available.  It may not be practical to do such a study but I'd be surprised if more than thirty or forty percent of NVDA users use add-ons.  And some of those users may use ones that instructors told them about or installed.  The user may not know where to get them or where to find out what is available.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Well it looks like a lot of people are happy with things as they are.

Forget I decided to try.



On 29/04/2019 3:34 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

I don't like the idea of number 2. I see nvda becoming very bloated. As for 1 I do use ducking if somethingn is too loud and I ned to use the screen reader. It can come in handy at times. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean anyone else won't. So I say leave ducking there.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 28 Apr 2019, at 5:18, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Hi.

Since the list is a bit quiet, and such, I propose the next discussion should be on nvda's features, and why we put them there especially the older ones.

I'd like to talk about intergration of addons and features that have been round for ages.

1 ducking.

Can someone remind me why we had it in the first place.

I've always been apposed to it, mainly because of the fact no one really uses it, at least I cann't see any reason a normal user like myself either on office or a gamer like me would need it in general.

I could see it when ducking some sounds, maybe or just turning down volumes.

I just answered a message with it in, but I have never cared for it.

I think this feature should go unless its used.

I also think stable addons that have been stable for 1 year or so maybe 6 months to 1 year should be reviewed for nvda core, and if not within a 2 year period if not further developed.

The following should be conciddered.

1.  if interpritors by nick stocton.

Unless this addon has any new version changes then I have used it with frotz and winglulx, tads, and its stable enough to put it in or at least native support of it.

1.  the image describer while new shows promise though having that could be an eventual support down the road.

Not sure about all the text and brousernav addons.

But all the program support addons, eg winamp, dropbox, outlook, teamtalk, etc should eventually go into nvda, as well as goldwave.

Calibre and toolbars explorer maybe and easy table nav.

THe math support, the updater eventually, the mozilla addon, and a few things like that.

This should extend to any addons that are used which havn't been updated for ages but look good, app support, and a few features.

I also think that sound scheme support for alternit sounds and theme support maybe similar to windows sound schemes should be part of nvda.

I also don't mind paying for professional theme packs for nvda.

This is not just the addons on the site excluding alegal addons and stuff used for one thing only, but especially with the nvda python3 project, eventually well next build we will start loosing addons that are not compatible.

And a few addons havn't had updates for whatever reason, maybe some of these are stable enough and don't need any.


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Ok I see your points.

Yes I do like the small size and the plugin nature of nvda and I wouldn't want to loose both either by putting to much into the program for no reason either.



On 29/04/2019 3:08 AM, Giles Turnbull wrote:
Hi Shaun,

I'm not sure I agree with much of this! I like audio ducking a lot becuase there are often websites that start things playing too loudly and there is no way to navigate to the volume control if ducking is not active. I've experienced this when listening to a podcast that I wanted to listen to and I've also experienced it when going to newspaper sites and I have been listening to NVDA read the article only for it to start playing a video of some other news story and it can be difficult to navigate down to the mute button.

As for bundling addons into NVDA I suspect many people would find that getting close to being bloatware. The beauty of addons  is that we can choose whether to install themn or not, and we can uninstal them if we find we don't need them or they are interfereing with something else. I can't see (pardon the pun) the pint in adding to the size of the NVDA executable when not everybody is going to use, for example, the WinAmp addon. I do use WinAmp every day but I don't use the addon becuase I tried it and it didn't enance anything I do with WinAmp, so I uninstalled it.

SO my vote, if you're counting them, is that I would not want lots of addons bundled into NVDA by default.

I'm pretty sure there was a discussion on this around the time Screen Curtain was developed. The general agreement was that the core NVDA program should only do screen reader functions and that things like the screen curtain or the weather app, things which I think I remember JAWS coming bundled with (it's a long time since I've used JAWS) were best left as addons for individual users to decide on whether to install or not.

Just my 2 currency units' worth :)


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Well that is something I can agree with.

My main thrust of my message last night is that we need to be a bit smarter than we are at times.

I have just been talking about people bunging features and things in because they looked good at the time and I don't want a situation where good at the time ends up with not good now.



On 29/04/2019 2:59 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 10:26 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA
Ron, what follows is not personally aimed at you, but at this concept, which several have expressed.

Whether or not you, any you, use a given feature or function is irrelevant.  You can be assured that a very great many others do.

It becomes completely irrelevant when that feature is configurable to an OFF state by the user.   All programs have features that any individual user may not like or may not use.  All programs have default settings that may not suit a given individual.  The first task of any user, with any program, is to do the exploration necessary to configure it to match their own wants and needs to the maximal extent possible.  You don't "steal features" that are assuredly used by many because you (the generic you) cannot be bothered to learn how to configure them, which includes turning them off.

Software is not now, and will never be, bespoke for any given individual unless they've written it themselves for themselves.  Something like NVDA should not be expected to be anything near to being so in its "out of the box" state.  You're going to have to tweak it to make it fit.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

           ~ Edward Abbey

 

 


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Thats true actually.

I didn't mean all addons but yeah we do need to be carefull on what we should and shouldn't have especially because nvda could end up bloated.



On 29/04/2019 2:26 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Vlad,


I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.


As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.


...just my opinion.


On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"


locked Re: Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Andre Fisher
 

Hi.

Shaun said:
For me, I have had ducking turn down sounds when I didn't want it to do so, including nvda, I have had things duck for no good reason and staying like that.

What does this even mean? I'll need further explanation to find out if this truly makes sense or not. Here's how ducking works, at least NVDA's two ways of doing it. Audio ducking involves lowering the volume of other audio. NVDA may be set to lower the volume of other audio when it's speaking, or generally when it's running. The shortcut to toggle this behaviour is NVDA+Shift+D. Now, ducking does not turn down NVDA's speech or the sounds it makes, never has and never will.

Unless, of course, you're talking about the effects that come with your version of Windows or laptop, which can messed with NVDA's sounds. In that case, that is not the fault of NVDA, nor is it a feature. Note also, that audio ducking is off by default, so someone who really wants it, like me, turns it on by choice.

Finally, some synthesizers for NVDA may not have good support for audio ducking, as they lower the volume of the sounds and sometimes, if set to only when NVDA is speaking, keep the volume lowered. I'm talking about the illegal add-ons that are all over the place. That, again, is not the fault of NVDA nor the feature, but the add-on itself.

Please clarify what you are saying!