Hello,
Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.
On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.
Let’s see what other opinions come up!
Cheers,
Vlad.

I didn't say all add-ons should be integrated.  I think there are certain very popular or important ones that should be integrated or installed with the program. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Shaun Everiss

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 3:57 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Jean, thats pardon my english, a piss poor way to view it.

If this is the case maybe we should put the addons repo in a more prominant position and other things, its allready on the manage addons page, maybe the welcome screen, maybe as a tip at startup for first time users, maybe if you think its needed well.

Nvda can run just as well without addons in most cases.

In fact on slower systems I use, I have had to run it with no addons but essential ones like the win10 apps addon.

I do think, that certain addons should come preinstalled or at least be installed after install like addon updater and win10apps if using win10 for example and addon updater is a must.

But no user needs every addon.

Most of my addons are program support addons for example.

I have a few features that I like and thats it.

Others have synths, others have different configurations.

Out of all the addons, I could go with just program supports and to be honest if I had to I could go without most addons at all with exception of win10 apps, addon updater, calibre, dropbox, if interpritors, vlc, goldwave, teamtalk and winamp.

Those are what I use others may have different things to use.

I have used nvda without addons for ages before I used it with and sure I know about addons a lot more and use a lot more but don't use everything as an addon.

I

Still like my speech synths to be a universally accessible for all programs thing for example.

To be honest, if people have that much trouble thinking about addons, maybe we should call them plugins or even extentions like every other brouser manufacturer is calling them who knows.

I personally think we are doing enough but I guess we could do more.

We can only tell people where to get addons.

The only private addon I use is the japanese translater addon from blindaudiogames.com which is quite crappy and useless if you don't play certain games in a certain language and have an account with that site for example.

Which I do.

Its not a translater, just for a few games in japanese from certain authors in a certain situation.

Since nvda can have custom addons to, well.

As for letting people know about where they can get addons, depending on what they are doing, Usually and this is for software etc I use on other's system I tend to install everything they need, and or may need then keep it updated, now if the user wants to know they can ask me.

A lot really don't they just want it working.

Addons may be an exception to that rule I grant you that at least.

I havn't heard anyone saying that addons are not in a more prominant position.

Saying that, this does bring a small spin in my original discussion.

I know quite well bar the alegal repos full of pirated stuff that the nvda addons site is not the only repo for addons, in fact I do think nvda's addons and download sites should be mirrored in case we ever lost the main site or got it hacked or something.

And we should encourage more repos of addons maybe have on the addons site, github and other places for authors repos for those interested, maybe expand the pages with a list of addon devs, a bio about each, maybe even have all that under different pages as well as the addons themselves.

We should have the ability for nvda to download addons without people going to the site to initially get them, for example I have never needed to go to addons.mozilla.org to get addons though I can do it that way of course.

On 29/04/2019 1:40 AM, Gene wrote:

I think that perhaps the most important reason to add certain add-ons to the program itself is that a lot of NVDA users don't know, and won't know, that add-ons exist or where to get them. 

 

I'm very curious if anyone has any idea what percent of NVDA users use add--ons and knows where to get them and how to see what is available.  It may not be practical to do such a study but I'd be surprised if more than thirty or forty percent of NVDA users use add-ons.  And some of those users may use ones that instructors told them about or installed.  The user may not know where to get them or where to find out what is available.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Vlad Dragomir

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:57 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

Hi,

On one hand, it could satisfy some. However, when we think deeply, it is a form of exclusionary practice, another variation of comments from the post that started our discussion. It is exclusionary because for certain parts of the world, bandwidth means money, and file size is also something people need to factor into.

Also, when we do include add-ons into NVDA core, we need to think about something that wasn’t brought up throughout our discussion: accountability. It isn’t enough to know Python to code useful and effective add-ons; one must also show accountability too, because by producing add-ons, authors are saying that they are willing to take full responsibility for their actions until they are ready to pass it onto others. Why do I steer people to creating add-ons before working on NVDA core itself? Part of that is because new people will need to learn about accountability, and to serve as a way of socialization into this culture.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Given your comments and peoples' concerns over bloat, perhaps another approach would be better, perhaps far better.  This would allow for two versions of NVDA to be made available for each version.  A long time ago, Window-eyes didn't integrate add-ons.  It had the installer install them when the program was installed but they were still add-ons.  I don't mean that every add-on was installed that users developed.  I mean that certain add-ons were installed. 

 

an approach like that, where certain add-ons are installed in the version offered with add-ons and none in the version without and the user would choose.  That might satisfy everyone, at least as much as is possible.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 2:26 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I understand that. But think about the effects of integrating add-ons into NVDA, especially those that are no longer maintained (or maintained for a while and no more), causes conflicts (including commands), known for causing performance issues without tweaking them, and so on.

There is a well-known quote within software engineering discipline that states, “programs spend 90 percent of their time in 10 percent of its codebase”. Imagine that 10 percent being consumed by add-ons, and I’m sure you’ll get the idea.

Another phrase states, “premature optimization is root of all evil”. In short, don’t tweak one’s code unless you know what you are getting yourself into. I had to learn this the hard way – it wasn’t until last year that I found that I can drastically improve performance of my add-ons if I used facilities provided by Windows API, NVDA itself, or a combination of both. In one instance, I observed up to 20 times speedup in one of my add-ons, and that was with an app module (optimizing add-ons, and for that matter, Python 2/3 code requires hours of dedication, including willingness to go beyond just reading source code; for this reason, whenever I set out to optimize my add-ons, I disassemble bytecode; for anyone tempted to just ship binary Python modules, I guarantee that at least one member of the add-ons community (including I) will disassemble pyc files).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

That's something I can't comment on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 1:58 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not. For every global plugin that gets integrated (or not), NVDA must loop through them to figure out what to do with a specific NVDA object. Different add-ons have different ways of dealing with events – some won’t pass on events to other subsystems.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.

 

If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.

 

If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

• Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
• Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
• Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
• Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
• Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
• Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

Given your comments and peoples' concerns over bloat, perhaps another approach would be better, perhaps far better.  This would allow for two versions of NVDA to be made available for each version.  A long time ago, Window-eyes didn't integrate add-ons.  It had the installer install them when the program was installed but they were still add-ons.  I don't mean that every add-on was installed that users developed.  I mean that certain add-ons were installed. 

 

an approach like that, where certain add-ons are installed in the version offered with add-ons and none in the version without and the user would choose.  That might satisfy everyone, at least as much as is possible.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 2:26 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Hi,

I understand that. But think about the effects of integrating add-ons into NVDA, especially those that are no longer maintained (or maintained for a while and no more), causes conflicts (including commands), known for causing performance issues without tweaking them, and so on.

There is a well-known quote within software engineering discipline that states, “programs spend 90 percent of their time in 10 percent of its codebase”. Imagine that 10 percent being consumed by add-ons, and I’m sure you’ll get the idea.

Another phrase states, “premature optimization is root of all evil”. In short, don’t tweak one’s code unless you know what you are getting yourself into. I had to learn this the hard way – it wasn’t until last year that I found that I can drastically improve performance of my add-ons if I used facilities provided by Windows API, NVDA itself, or a combination of both. In one instance, I observed up to 20 times speedup in one of my add-ons, and that was with an app module (optimizing add-ons, and for that matter, Python 2/3 code requires hours of dedication, including willingness to go beyond just reading source code; for this reason, whenever I set out to optimize my add-ons, I disassemble bytecode; for anyone tempted to just ship binary Python modules, I guarantee that at least one member of the add-ons community (including I) will disassemble pyc files).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

That's something I can't comment on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 1:58 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not. For every global plugin that gets integrated (or not), NVDA must loop through them to figure out what to do with a specific NVDA object. Different add-ons have different ways of dealing with events – some won’t pass on events to other subsystems.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.

 

If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.

 

If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

• Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
• Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
• Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
• Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
• Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
• Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

I believe you were correct Brian.

accessibilitycentral.net/How%20to%20use%20the%20Mail%20app%20in%20Window...

is the site I went to.

 

                                                                                                                                If all I have left in this world is God, I have everything!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2019 9:59 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 mail

 

I would also say that often merely trying again straight away fixes it. I

notice it for example on pages containing adverts where the google server is

not fast enough in responding resulting in a page of some data but with bits

of it reporting server not found or 404 error in the middle of the text. Its

not browser specific, so I imagine its latency when the net is busy.

As you say without the link we are , um blind!

Brian

 

bglists@...

Sent via blueyonder.

Please address personal E-mail to:-

briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'

in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Friday, April 26, 2019 4:33 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 mail

 

 

> On 26 Apr 2019, at 1:29, Robert Doc Wright godfearer wrote:

> 

>> I found a link on Google for using windows 10 mail with NVDA.

>  And yu did not give the link so none of us can test it. Also what

> browser are you running? I expect to see  a full on bug report if able.

> 

>

> 

>

 

 

 

 

Hi,

I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not. For every global plugin that gets integrated (or not), NVDA must loop through them to figure out what to do with a specific NVDA object. Different add-ons have different ways of dealing with events – some won’t pass on events to other subsystems.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.

 

If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.

 

If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

• Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
• Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
• Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
• Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
• Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
• Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.

 

If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.

 

If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

• Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
• Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
• Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
• Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
• Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
• Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

remote should totally be rolled into NVDA.

On 4/28/19, Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@...> wrote:

I knew about the page, but I’ve never seen an Outlook add-on, neither there
before nor discussed on list. This is great, and if it helps with the
control+. (Period) in speaking the next message automatically that it lands
on, then Outlook may become my email client of choice on Windows, if using
it because even better than using Gmail.

On Apr 28, 2019, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 09:56 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
Wait, there's an addon for Outlook?
When I see things like this my jaw drops? The official NVDA Add-Ons
Page, whose address has been posted hundreds of times, is:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html.
<https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html>

Each add-on is presented, by title, as a link on the page. If you, any
you, who've been an NVDA user and participant on any NVDA related
list/forum for a long time have never bothered to go there and do a
cruise-through of the links to see what's what you have no one to blame
but yourselves.

I'm not about to give the actual link in this case, but the fact that
there is an add-on named Outlook Extended answers that question.

[The above may not apply to Devin if that comment was in jest, but it
certainly applies to any member who's been on this list for at least a
month. Go look, and if you need to activate an add-on title to get a
further description of its function, well . . . ]
--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
~ Edward Abbey

Jean, thats pardon my english, a piss poor way to view it.

If this is the case maybe we should put the addons repo in a more prominant position and other things, its allready on the manage addons page, maybe the welcome screen, maybe as a tip at startup for first time users, maybe if you think its needed well.

Nvda can run just as well without addons in most cases.

In fact on slower systems I use, I have had to run it with no addons but essential ones like the win10 apps addon.

I do think, that certain addons should come preinstalled or at least be installed after install like addon updater and win10apps if using win10 for example and addon updater is a must.

But no user needs every addon.

Most of my addons are program support addons for example.

I have a few features that I like and thats it.

Others have synths, others have different configurations.

Out of all the addons, I could go with just program supports and to be honest if I had to I could go without most addons at all with exception of win10 apps, addon updater, calibre, dropbox, if interpritors, vlc, goldwave, teamtalk and winamp.

Those are what I use others may have different things to use.

I have used nvda without addons for ages before I used it with and sure I know about addons a lot more and use a lot more but don't use everything as an addon.

I

Still like my speech synths to be a universally accessible for all programs thing for example.

To be honest, if people have that much trouble thinking about addons, maybe we should call them plugins or even extentions like every other brouser manufacturer is calling them who knows.

I personally think we are doing enough but I guess we could do more.

We can only tell people where to get addons.

The only private addon I use is the japanese translater addon from blindaudiogames.com which is quite crappy and useless if you don't play certain games in a certain language and have an account with that site for example.

Which I do.

Its not a translater, just for a few games in japanese from certain authors in a certain situation.

Since nvda can have custom addons to, well.

As for letting people know about where they can get addons, depending on what they are doing, Usually and this is for software etc I use on other's system I tend to install everything they need, and or may need then keep it updated, now if the user wants to know they can ask me.

A lot really don't they just want it working.

Addons may be an exception to that rule I grant you that at least.

I havn't heard anyone saying that addons are not in a more prominant position.

Saying that, this does bring a small spin in my original discussion.

I know quite well bar the alegal repos full of pirated stuff that the nvda addons site is not the only repo for addons, in fact I do think nvda's addons and download sites should be mirrored in case we ever lost the main site or got it hacked or something.

And we should encourage more repos of addons maybe have on the addons site, github and other places for authors repos for those interested, maybe expand the pages with a list of addon devs, a bio about each, maybe even have all that under different pages as well as the addons themselves.

We should have the ability for nvda to download addons without people going to the site to initially get them, for example I have never needed to go to addons.mozilla.org to get addons though I can do it that way of course.

I think that perhaps the most important reason to add certain add-ons to the program itself is that a lot of NVDA users don't know, and won't know, that add-ons exist or where to get them. 

 

I'm very curious if anyone has any idea what percent of NVDA users use add--ons and knows where to get them and how to see what is available.  It may not be practical to do such a study but I'd be surprised if more than thirty or forty percent of NVDA users use add-ons.  And some of those users may use ones that instructors told them about or installed.  The user may not know where to get them or where to find out what is available.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Vlad Dragomir

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:57 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

No one will read that final dialogue. I don't eve rread the finished dialogues of software except to search for any errors.if info is missed, it's my fault but I don't have to time to speed read through a finished dialogue.

Take care

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 28 Apr 2019, at 7:33, Ron Canazzi wrote:

Hi Gene,

You make a good point, but that could easily be rectified if during the install, there is a reference screen that says something like: "You have just installed the basic NVDA package.  NVDA is a flexible program and there are additional add-ons which can expand the functionality of NVDA for such programs as Winamp, Thunderbird, ETC.  The add-ons can be found at..."  This would inform anyone installing the program that major enhancements can be added to NVDA functionality by the use of add-ons.

On 4/28/2019 9:40 AM, Gene wrote:

I think that perhaps the most important reason to add certain add-ons to the program itself is that a lot of NVDA users don't know, and won't know, that add-ons exist or where to get them. 

 

I'm very curious if anyone has any idea what percent of NVDA users use add--ons and knows where to get them and how to see what is available.  It may not be practical to do such a study but I'd be surprised if more than thirty or forty percent of NVDA users use add-ons.  And some of those users may use ones that instructors told them about or installed.  The user may not know where to get them or where to find out what is available.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Vlad Dragomir

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:57 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

I don't like the idea of number 2. I see nvda becoming very bloated. As for 1 I do use ducking if somethingn is too loud and I ned to use the screen reader. It can come in handy at times. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean anyone else won't. So I say leave ducking there.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and  tutorials go here.
and for hosting options go here
to subscribe to the feed click here

Our telegram channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here

On 28 Apr 2019, at 5:18, Shaun Everiss wrote:

Hi.

Since the list is a bit quiet, and such, I propose the next discussion should be on nvda's features, and why we put them there especially the older ones.

I'd like to talk about intergration of addons and features that have been round for ages.

1 ducking.

Can someone remind me why we had it in the first place.

I've always been apposed to it, mainly because of the fact no one really uses it, at least I cann't see any reason a normal user like myself either on office or a gamer like me would need it in general.

I could see it when ducking some sounds, maybe or just turning down volumes.

I just answered a message with it in, but I have never cared for it.

I think this feature should go unless its used.

I also think stable addons that have been stable for 1 year or so maybe 6 months to 1 year should be reviewed for nvda core, and if not within a 2 year period if not further developed.

The following should be conciddered.

1.  if interpritors by nick stocton.

Unless this addon has any new version changes then I have used it with frotz and winglulx, tads, and its stable enough to put it in or at least native support of it.

1.  the image describer while new shows promise though having that could be an eventual support down the road.

Not sure about all the text and brousernav addons.

But all the program support addons, eg winamp, dropbox, outlook, teamtalk, etc should eventually go into nvda, as well as goldwave.

Calibre and toolbars explorer maybe and easy table nav.

THe math support, the updater eventually, the mozilla addon, and a few things like that.

This should extend to any addons that are used which havn't been updated for ages but look good, app support, and a few features.

I also think that sound scheme support for alternit sounds and theme support maybe similar to windows sound schemes should be part of nvda.

I also don't mind paying for professional theme packs for nvda.

This is not just the addons on the site excluding alegal addons and stuff used for one thing only, but especially with the nvda python3 project, eventually well next build we will start loosing addons that are not compatible.

And a few addons havn't had updates for whatever reason, maybe some of these are stable enough and don't need any.

Hi Shaun,

I'm not sure I agree with much of this! I like audio ducking a lot becuase there are often websites that start things playing too loudly and there is no way to navigate to the volume control if ducking is not active. I've experienced this when listening to a podcast that I wanted to listen to and I've also experienced it when going to newspaper sites and I have been listening to NVDA read the article only for it to start playing a video of some other news story and it can be difficult to navigate down to the mute button.

As for bundling addons into NVDA I suspect many people would find that getting close to being bloatware. The beauty of addons  is that we can choose whether to install themn or not, and we can uninstal them if we find we don't need them or they are interfereing with something else. I can't see (pardon the pun) the pint in adding to the size of the NVDA executable when not everybody is going to use, for example, the WinAmp addon. I do use WinAmp every day but I don't use the addon becuase I tried it and it didn't enance anything I do with WinAmp, so I uninstalled it.

SO my vote, if you're counting them, is that I would not want lots of addons bundled into NVDA by default.

I'm pretty sure there was a discussion on this around the time Screen Curtain was developed. The general agreement was that the core NVDA program should only do screen reader functions and that things like the screen curtain or the weather app, things which I think I remember JAWS coming bundled with (it's a long time since I've used JAWS) were best left as addons for individual users to decide on whether to install or not.

Just my 2 currency units' worth :)

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 10:26 AM, Ron Canazzi wrote:

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA

Ron, what follows is not personally aimed at you, but at this concept, which several have expressed.

Whether or not you, any you, use a given feature or function is irrelevant.  You can be assured that a very great many others do.

It becomes completely irrelevant when that feature is configurable to an OFF state by the user.   All programs have features that any individual user may not like or may not use.  All programs have default settings that may not suit a given individual.  The first task of any user, with any program, is to do the exploration necessary to configure it to match their own wants and needs to the maximal extent possible.  You don't "steal features" that are assuredly used by many because you (the generic you) cannot be bothered to learn how to configure them, which includes turning them off.

Software is not now, and will never be, bespoke for any given individual unless they've written it themselves for themselves.  Something like NVDA should not be expected to be anything near to being so in its "out of the box" state.  You're going to have to tweak it to make it fit.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

           ~ Edward Abbey

 

 

Hi Vlad,

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

...just my opinion.

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

I think that perhaps the most important reason to add certain add-ons to the program itself is that a lot of NVDA users don't know, and won't know, that add-ons exist or where to get them. 

 

I'm very curious if anyone has any idea what percent of NVDA users use add--ons and knows where to get them and how to see what is available.  It may not be practical to do such a study but I'd be surprised if more than thirty or forty percent of NVDA users use add-ons.  And some of those users may use ones that instructors told them about or installed.  The user may not know where to get them or where to find out what is available.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Vlad Dragomir

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:57 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

Not really.
This is the file for installing the program, so it only needs to be installed once :)
Now, he can very well starts the program separately from Windows, which means that he'll have to run it each time Windows starts, or he can just do what I do and check the option for this program to start along with the Windows itself.
The latter really makes life easier and doesn't slow down the computer in any way that I could notice, so that's what I recommend doing :)
Cheers,
Marcio
AKA /Starboy/
Sent from a galaxy far, far away.
Follow or add me on Facebook <https://facebook.com/coolbutpsycho>
Em 26/04/2019 18:51, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io disse:

I am correct in thinking if this works for him he will have to run the little exe file each time he restarts the computer?

On 26/04/2019 08:51, marcio via Groups.I wrote:

Oh, I forgot to mention:
Don't worry about it playing continually the WAV file. This is an absolutely silent file which wil just make sure of not letting your soundcard sleep. You'll not hear anything during this, you'll not even notice the program running.

Cheers,
Marcio
AKA /Starboy/


Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

Follow or add me on Facebook <https://facebook.com/coolbutpsycho>

Em 26/04/2019 04:48, marcio via Groups.Io disse:

Em 26/04/2019 03:37, Darren Harris via Groups.Io disse:

The second thing is that every so often and this is regular the soundcard will just switch off. I have my laptop plugged into a bos soundlink mini 2 and after a while unless there???s sound going through it the ??laptop sound seems to switch off which results in the speaker turning off. At first I thought it was NVDA being weird but it isn???t.

Darren,
Maybe this problem can be solved with a small application called Silenzio.
It will play continually a WAV file, which will not let your soundcard sleep.
Believe it made my life easier when I found out about this little friend.
Here's the link if you want to try it out. Just install and run it and see the results!
http://www.stefankiss.sk/programy/silenzio/Silenzio_1.0_setup.exe

Cheers,
Marcio
AKA /Starboy/


Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

Follow or add me on Facebook <https://facebook.com/coolbutpsycho>

The only thing I agree with you on is the second bit of your message. Otherwise, you're wrong about the notion that people don't use ducking. I don't have the patience to explain to you why you are wrong, but you are wrong. As for your other points, some of those are valid. But how about you make an actual poll or survey rather than pretending like you know what we want.

I would also say that often merely trying again straight away fixes it. I

notice it for example on pages containing adverts where the google server is

not fast enough in responding resulting in a page of some data but with bits

of it reporting server not found or 404 error in the middle of the text. Its

not browser specific, so I imagine its latency when the net is busy.

As you say without the link we are , um blind!

Brian

bglists@...

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Please address personal E-mail to:-

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----- Original Message -----

From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Friday, April 26, 2019 4:33 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 mail

> On 26 Apr 2019, at 1:29, Robert Doc Wright godfearer wrote:

> 

>> I found a link on Google for using windows 10 mail with NVDA.

>  And yu did not give the link so none of us can test it. Also what

> browser are you running? I expect to see  a full on bug report if able.

> 

>

> 

>

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.