I agree that most add-ons should stay separate addons, because it is so easy
to manually add them through the add-ons site.
With Add-on updater, we have the best of two worlds.
People can install as many add-ons as they want, and update them through the
add-on updater, and it is so easy to manage the addons you have installed
through the manage add-ons in the tools menu!
I personally do not care if NVDA core stays as it is, and all other features
come in the form of addons that are put on the add-ons web site.
David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 6:28 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda
featuresproposal and wider discussion

Hi

if we go down that track which ones should become part of NVDA?

I think also when people come from other screen readers some of those
functions are part of that screen reader and they expect it to be the same
for nvda.

But i also notice at times the new user tries to do the short cuts the same
as there old screen reader instead of learning nvdas ones.

Quite a few of the old add ons were before the add on website went up to
house them all in the one area which makes a lot of sense.
The people who made them probably have moved on or may be doing other
projects or at that time just wanted that extra functionality in that
program.
So they may never be updated or allowed to by law depending on how it was
done.

some of the add ons have been put into NVDA I guess you would call them core
ones.


a add on yes i would like some one to work on is a graphics labeler in NVDA.
the more i use my android phone there are some programs that need labeling
so we can use them properly. at times you contact the person making the
software and they will label those buttons but at other times you never hear
back from them. it is a catch 22 problem.
Other wise you uninstall the program and look for another which is labled
correctly etc.

Another add on I think that jumps you to the notification area down near the
clock a lot of people are not ware there are windows commands to do the same
thing. Maybe not bring them up in a list but i still have more control doing
it the windows way.
Does this one need to be part of NVDA? if i want it i can get the add on.

The add ons have to meet a certain criteria to go up on the add on website
let alone been put into nvda.
Should the VLC add on become part of NVDA i do not think so but knowing
there is a add on i can install for it is good.

So back to the catch 22 problem.

People also have to remember that NVDA has not been around as long as some
others. At least NVDA can benefit any one who needs a screen reader at no
extra cost on top of there computer unless they donate to this worthy
project.

But they from what i hear from others in the adaptive field say they have
been catching up very quickly with other screen readers that have been
around longer.
Plus NVDA can benefit many more than just the visually impaired and blind it
also is useful with dyslexics etc.

NVACCESS  does not have the budget like some and the man poer.

we just have to be greatful there are people in our community who have the
knowledge to make add ons and to provide patches etc into NVDA.
And what they do is using there time and knowledge to do it. Are they been
payed? I do not think so unless it was some thing like the remote add on but
most if not all are made and donated for free to help out the project.

So which add ons should NVDA use? that is the million dollar question I
would leave that up to NVACCESS or the people in the know of what is been
used the most. I guess when you download a add on it might tell them how
many people might use a certain add on that benefit the most.

The weather plus add on is great but part of nvda? know as we have seen when
things have broken with where they get the information from.

I guess all our needs are different.

Gene nz



All some people need to do is look around NVDA and see what there is. People
who say they do not know about the nvda add on website must of not been in
the add on manager in nvda and looked around. Unless they have removed it
not there is a get add ons button that takes the person to the add on
website to get ones they might want to use.

I am happy doing it this way.

The add on updater add on is great once you have installed the add ons and
for them to update to the latest version of it.

Make it part of NVDA yes but also does not bother me if it is a add on as
long as i know where to get them from.


On 29/04/2019 9:37 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes agreed,   it does no harm and I use it on some web sites that play music
and I need to hear the screen reader no leave it as it is!

On 28/04/2019 13:57, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be
indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would
include Screen Curtain among those.

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function.
It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google
Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having
to close everything else.

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

Cheers,

Vlad.



--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material
at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK
sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their
computers. To find out which location (or locations) are nearest to you
please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries
(Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find out which software is installed
on the APNK network please visit the following
link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/software To find out how to
use NVDA on APNK computers please visit the following
link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/nvda

To find out which software is available on the Christchurch City Library
network, and how to start the NVDA screen reader, please go to the following
links. Software
available  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faq/computers/#faq_5884
How to start the NVDA screen reader on Christchurch City Library
computers  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faqs/what-screen-reader-software-is-available/

To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link
https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the
official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have
sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

I agree that most add-ons should stay separate addons, because it is so easy to manually add them through the add-ons site.

With Add-on updater, we have the best of two worlds.

People can install as many add-ons as they want, and update them through the add-on updater, and it is so easy to manage the addons you have installed through the manage add-ons in the tools menu!

I personally do not care if NVDA core stays as it is, and all other features come in the form of addons that are put on the add-ons web site.

David Moore

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: hurrikennyandopo ...
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 6:28 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda featuresproposal and wider discussion

 

Hi

 

if we go down that track which ones should become part of NVDA?

 

I think also when people come from other screen readers some of those functions are part of that screen reader and they expect it to be the same for nvda.

 

But i also notice at times the new user tries to do the short cuts the same as there old screen reader instead of learning nvdas ones.

 

Quite a few of the old add ons were before the add on website went up to house them all in the one area which makes a lot of sense.

The people who made them probably have moved on or may be doing other projects or at that time just wanted that extra functionality in that program.

So they may never be updated or allowed to by law depending on how it was done.

 

some of the add ons have been put into NVDA I guess you would call them core ones.

 

 

a add on yes i would like some one to work on is a graphics labeler in NVDA. the more i use my android phone there are some programs that need labeling so we can use them properly. at times you contact the person making the software and they will label those buttons but at other times you never hear back from them. it is a catch 22 problem.

Other wise you uninstall the program and look for another which is labled correctly etc.

 

Another add on I think that jumps you to the notification area down near the clock a lot of people are not ware there are windows commands to do the same thing. Maybe not bring them up in a list but i still have more control doing it the windows way.

Does this one need to be part of NVDA? if i want it i can get the add on.

 

The add ons have to meet a certain criteria to go up on the add on website let alone been put into nvda.

Should the VLC add on become part of NVDA i do not think so but knowing there is a add on i can install for it is good.

 

So back to the catch 22 problem.

 

People also have to remember that NVDA has not been around as long as some others. At least NVDA can benefit any one who needs a screen reader at no extra cost on top of there computer unless they donate to this worthy project.

 

But they from what i hear from others in the adaptive field say they have been catching up very quickly with other screen readers that have been around longer.

Plus NVDA can benefit many more than just the visually impaired and blind it also is useful with dyslexics etc.

 

NVACCESS  does not have the budget like some and the man poer.

 

we just have to be greatful there are people in our community who have the knowledge to make add ons and to provide patches etc into NVDA.

And what they do is using there time and knowledge to do it. Are they been payed? I do not think so unless it was some thing like the remote add on but most if not all are made and donated for free to help out the project.

 

So which add ons should NVDA use? that is the million dollar question I would leave that up to NVACCESS or the people in the know of what is been used the most. I guess when you download a add on it might tell them how many people might use a certain add on that benefit the most.

 

The weather plus add on is great but part of nvda? know as we have seen when things have broken with where they get the information from.

 

I guess all our needs are different.

 

Gene nz

 

 

 

All some people need to do is look around NVDA and see what there is. People who say they do not know about the nvda add on website must of not been in the add on manager in nvda and looked around. Unless they have removed it not there is a get add ons button that takes the person to the add on website to get ones they might want to use.

 

I am happy doing it this way.

 

The add on updater add on is great once you have installed the add ons and for them to update to the latest version of it.

 

Make it part of NVDA yes but also does not bother me if it is a add on as long as i know where to get them from.

 

 

On 29/04/2019 9:37 AM, Kevin Cussick via Groups.Io wrote:

Yes agreed,   it does no harm and I use it on some web sites that play music and I need to hear the screen reader no leave it as it is!

On 28/04/2019 13:57, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

Cheers,

Vlad.

--

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net
 
Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which location (or locations) are nearest to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa). To find out which software is installed on the APNK network please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/software To find out how to use NVDA on APNK computers please visit the following link http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.info/faq/nvda
 
To find out which software is available on the Christchurch City Library network, and how to start the NVDA screen reader, please go to the following links. Software available  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faq/computers/#faq_5884  How to start the NVDA screen reader on Christchurch City Library computers  https://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/faqs/what-screen-reader-software-is-available/
 
To find an NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.

 

Hi

if we go down that track which ones should become part of NVDA?

I think also when people come from other screen readers some of those functions are part of that screen reader and they expect it to be the same for nvda.

But i also notice at times the new user tries to do the short cuts the same as there old screen reader instead of learning nvdas ones.

Quite a few of the old add ons were before the add on website went up to house them all in the one area which makes a lot of sense.

The people who made them probably have moved on or may be doing other projects or at that time just wanted that extra functionality in that program.

So they may never be updated or allowed to by law depending on how it was done.

some of the add ons have been put into NVDA I guess you would call them core ones.

a add on yes i would like some one to work on is a graphics labeler in NVDA. the more i use my android phone there are some programs that need labeling so we can use them properly. at times you contact the person making the software and they will label those buttons but at other times you never hear back from them. it is a catch 22 problem.

Other wise you uninstall the program and look for another which is labled correctly etc.

Another add on I think that jumps you to the notification area down near the clock a lot of people are not ware there are windows commands to do the same thing. Maybe not bring them up in a list but i still have more control doing it the windows way.

Does this one need to be part of NVDA? if i want it i can get the add on.

The add ons have to meet a certain criteria to go up on the add on website let alone been put into nvda.

Should the VLC add on become part of NVDA i do not think so but knowing there is a add on i can install for it is good.

So back to the catch 22 problem.

People also have to remember that NVDA has not been around as long as some others. At least NVDA can benefit any one who needs a screen reader at no extra cost on top of there computer unless they donate to this worthy project.

But they from what i hear from others in the adaptive field say they have been catching up very quickly with other screen readers that have been around longer.

Plus NVDA can benefit many more than just the visually impaired and blind it also is useful with dyslexics etc.

NVACCESS  does not have the budget like some and the man poer.

we just have to be greatful there are people in our community who have the knowledge to make add ons and to provide patches etc into NVDA.

And what they do is using there time and knowledge to do it. Are they been payed? I do not think so unless it was some thing like the remote add on but most if not all are made and donated for free to help out the project.

So which add ons should NVDA use? that is the million dollar question I would leave that up to NVACCESS or the people in the know of what is been used the most. I guess when you download a add on it might tell them how many people might use a certain add on that benefit the most.

The weather plus add on is great but part of nvda? know as we have seen when things have broken with where they get the information from.

I guess all our needs are different.

Gene nz

All some people need to do is look around NVDA and see what there is. People who say they do not know about the nvda add on website must of not been in the add on manager in nvda and looked around. Unless they have removed it not there is a get add ons button that takes the person to the add on website to get ones they might want to use.

I am happy doing it this way.

The add on updater add on is great once you have installed the add ons and for them to update to the latest version of it.

Make it part of NVDA yes but also does not bother me if it is a add on as long as i know where to get them from.

Yes agreed,   it does no harm and I use it on some web sites that play music and I need to hear the screen reader no leave it as it is!

On 28/04/2019 13:57, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

Cheers,

Vlad.

Yes agreed,   it does no harm and I use it on some web sites that play music and I need to hear the screen reader no leave it as it is!

On 28/04/2019 13:57, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

Cheers,

Vlad.

Yes agreed,   it does no harm and I use it on some web sites that play

music and I need to hear the screen reader no leave it as it is!

On 28/04/2019 13:57, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

> Hello,

>

> Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be

> indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would

> include Screen Curtain among those.

>

> On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking

> function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube 

> or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader

> without having to close everything else.

>

> Let’s see what other opinions come up!

>

> Cheers,

>

> Vlad.

>

>

I would agree with you 100%, but I think that the fact that nvda is freely accessible to everyone somewhat mitigates the drawbacks of a proprietary system.

things have come a long way in the last few years. Now for example, you can use zoom to send the audio from one computer to another remotely for training and tech support purposes.  I don't know about iPhone, but at least if you have an Android device, you can remotely access your nvda enabled computer using an Android app that plays on nvda remote.

Gone are the days of Jaws tandem, and window Wise remote.


On April 28, 2019 5:16:09 PM "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@...> wrote:

Hmmm before we role remote into nvda, we need to have the list of
servers we can use.

To be honest, remote shouldn't be just for nvda, it should be a stand
alone program that can be used by us and not just in nvda and we should
be able  to have servers we can use and also the ability to create
secured servers ourself similar to teamtalk client and server packages
but thats only what I think of course.



On 29/04/2019 5:42 AM, Lenron wrote:

remote should totally be rolled into NVDA.

On 4/28/19, Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@...> wrote:

I knew about the page, but I’ve never seen an Outlook add-on, neither there
before nor discussed on list. This is great, and if it helps with the
control+. (Period) in speaking the next message automatically that it lands
on, then Outlook may become my email client of choice on Windows, if using
it because even better than using Gmail.

On Apr 28, 2019, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 09:56 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
Wait, there's an addon for Outlook?
When I see things like this my jaw drops?   The official NVDA Add-Ons
Page, whose address has been posted hundreds of times, is:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html.
<https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html>

Each add-on is presented, by title, as a link on the page. If you, any
you, who've been an NVDA user and participant on any NVDA related
list/forum for a long time have never bothered to go there and do a
cruise-through of the links to see what's what you have no one to blame
but yourselves.

I'm not about to give the actual link in this case, but the fact that
there is an add-on named Outlook Extended answers that question.

[The above may not apply to Devin if that comment was in jest, but it
certainly applies to any member who's been on this list for at least a
month.  Go look, and if you need to activate an add-on title to get a
further description of its function, well . . . ]
--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
            ~ Edward Abbey

remote should totally be rolled into NVDA.

On 4/28/19, Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@...> wrote:

I knew about the page, but I’ve never seen an Outlook add-on, neither there
before nor discussed on list. This is great, and if it helps with the
control+. (Period) in speaking the next message automatically that it lands
on, then Outlook may become my email client of choice on Windows, if using
it because even better than using Gmail.

On Apr 28, 2019, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 09:56 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
Wait, there's an addon for Outlook?
When I see things like this my jaw drops? The official NVDA Add-Ons
Page, whose address has been posted hundreds of times, is:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html.
<https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html>

Each add-on is presented, by title, as a link on the page. If you, any
you, who've been an NVDA user and participant on any NVDA related
list/forum for a long time have never bothered to go there and do a
cruise-through of the links to see what's what you have no one to blame
but yourselves.

I'm not about to give the actual link in this case, but the fact that
there is an add-on named Outlook Extended answers that question.

[The above may not apply to Devin if that comment was in jest, but it
certainly applies to any member who's been on this list for at least a
month. Go look, and if you need to activate an add-on title to get a
further description of its function, well . . . ]
--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
~ Edward Abbey

Hello,
Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.
On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.
Let’s see what other opinions come up!
Cheers,
Vlad.

I didn't say all add-ons should be integrated.  I think there are certain very popular or important ones that should be integrated or installed with the program. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Shaun Everiss

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 3:57 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Jean, thats pardon my english, a piss poor way to view it.

If this is the case maybe we should put the addons repo in a more prominant position and other things, its allready on the manage addons page, maybe the welcome screen, maybe as a tip at startup for first time users, maybe if you think its needed well.

Nvda can run just as well without addons in most cases.

In fact on slower systems I use, I have had to run it with no addons but essential ones like the win10 apps addon.

I do think, that certain addons should come preinstalled or at least be installed after install like addon updater and win10apps if using win10 for example and addon updater is a must.

But no user needs every addon.

Most of my addons are program support addons for example.

I have a few features that I like and thats it.

Others have synths, others have different configurations.

Out of all the addons, I could go with just program supports and to be honest if I had to I could go without most addons at all with exception of win10 apps, addon updater, calibre, dropbox, if interpritors, vlc, goldwave, teamtalk and winamp.

Those are what I use others may have different things to use.

I have used nvda without addons for ages before I used it with and sure I know about addons a lot more and use a lot more but don't use everything as an addon.

I

Still like my speech synths to be a universally accessible for all programs thing for example.

To be honest, if people have that much trouble thinking about addons, maybe we should call them plugins or even extentions like every other brouser manufacturer is calling them who knows.

I personally think we are doing enough but I guess we could do more.

We can only tell people where to get addons.

The only private addon I use is the japanese translater addon from blindaudiogames.com which is quite crappy and useless if you don't play certain games in a certain language and have an account with that site for example.

Which I do.

Its not a translater, just for a few games in japanese from certain authors in a certain situation.

Since nvda can have custom addons to, well.

As for letting people know about where they can get addons, depending on what they are doing, Usually and this is for software etc I use on other's system I tend to install everything they need, and or may need then keep it updated, now if the user wants to know they can ask me.

A lot really don't they just want it working.

Addons may be an exception to that rule I grant you that at least.

I havn't heard anyone saying that addons are not in a more prominant position.

Saying that, this does bring a small spin in my original discussion.

I know quite well bar the alegal repos full of pirated stuff that the nvda addons site is not the only repo for addons, in fact I do think nvda's addons and download sites should be mirrored in case we ever lost the main site or got it hacked or something.

And we should encourage more repos of addons maybe have on the addons site, github and other places for authors repos for those interested, maybe expand the pages with a list of addon devs, a bio about each, maybe even have all that under different pages as well as the addons themselves.

We should have the ability for nvda to download addons without people going to the site to initially get them, for example I have never needed to go to addons.mozilla.org to get addons though I can do it that way of course.

On 29/04/2019 1:40 AM, Gene wrote:

I think that perhaps the most important reason to add certain add-ons to the program itself is that a lot of NVDA users don't know, and won't know, that add-ons exist or where to get them. 

 

I'm very curious if anyone has any idea what percent of NVDA users use add--ons and knows where to get them and how to see what is available.  It may not be practical to do such a study but I'd be surprised if more than thirty or forty percent of NVDA users use add-ons.  And some of those users may use ones that instructors told them about or installed.  The user may not know where to get them or where to find out what is available.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Vlad Dragomir

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:57 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

Hi,

On one hand, it could satisfy some. However, when we think deeply, it is a form of exclusionary practice, another variation of comments from the post that started our discussion. It is exclusionary because for certain parts of the world, bandwidth means money, and file size is also something people need to factor into.

Also, when we do include add-ons into NVDA core, we need to think about something that wasn’t brought up throughout our discussion: accountability. It isn’t enough to know Python to code useful and effective add-ons; one must also show accountability too, because by producing add-ons, authors are saying that they are willing to take full responsibility for their actions until they are ready to pass it onto others. Why do I steer people to creating add-ons before working on NVDA core itself? Part of that is because new people will need to learn about accountability, and to serve as a way of socialization into this culture.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 1:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Given your comments and peoples' concerns over bloat, perhaps another approach would be better, perhaps far better.  This would allow for two versions of NVDA to be made available for each version.  A long time ago, Window-eyes didn't integrate add-ons.  It had the installer install them when the program was installed but they were still add-ons.  I don't mean that every add-on was installed that users developed.  I mean that certain add-ons were installed. 

 

an approach like that, where certain add-ons are installed in the version offered with add-ons and none in the version without and the user would choose.  That might satisfy everyone, at least as much as is possible.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 2:26 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I understand that. But think about the effects of integrating add-ons into NVDA, especially those that are no longer maintained (or maintained for a while and no more), causes conflicts (including commands), known for causing performance issues without tweaking them, and so on.

There is a well-known quote within software engineering discipline that states, “programs spend 90 percent of their time in 10 percent of its codebase”. Imagine that 10 percent being consumed by add-ons, and I’m sure you’ll get the idea.

Another phrase states, “premature optimization is root of all evil”. In short, don’t tweak one’s code unless you know what you are getting yourself into. I had to learn this the hard way – it wasn’t until last year that I found that I can drastically improve performance of my add-ons if I used facilities provided by Windows API, NVDA itself, or a combination of both. In one instance, I observed up to 20 times speedup in one of my add-ons, and that was with an app module (optimizing add-ons, and for that matter, Python 2/3 code requires hours of dedication, including willingness to go beyond just reading source code; for this reason, whenever I set out to optimize my add-ons, I disassemble bytecode; for anyone tempted to just ship binary Python modules, I guarantee that at least one member of the add-ons community (including I) will disassemble pyc files).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

That's something I can't comment on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 1:58 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not. For every global plugin that gets integrated (or not), NVDA must loop through them to figure out what to do with a specific NVDA object. Different add-ons have different ways of dealing with events – some won’t pass on events to other subsystems.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.

 

If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.

 

If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

• Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
• Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
• Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
• Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
• Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
• Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

Given your comments and peoples' concerns over bloat, perhaps another approach would be better, perhaps far better.  This would allow for two versions of NVDA to be made available for each version.  A long time ago, Window-eyes didn't integrate add-ons.  It had the installer install them when the program was installed but they were still add-ons.  I don't mean that every add-on was installed that users developed.  I mean that certain add-ons were installed. 

 

an approach like that, where certain add-ons are installed in the version offered with add-ons and none in the version without and the user would choose.  That might satisfy everyone, at least as much as is possible.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 2:26 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

Hi,

I understand that. But think about the effects of integrating add-ons into NVDA, especially those that are no longer maintained (or maintained for a while and no more), causes conflicts (including commands), known for causing performance issues without tweaking them, and so on.

There is a well-known quote within software engineering discipline that states, “programs spend 90 percent of their time in 10 percent of its codebase”. Imagine that 10 percent being consumed by add-ons, and I’m sure you’ll get the idea.

Another phrase states, “premature optimization is root of all evil”. In short, don’t tweak one’s code unless you know what you are getting yourself into. I had to learn this the hard way – it wasn’t until last year that I found that I can drastically improve performance of my add-ons if I used facilities provided by Windows API, NVDA itself, or a combination of both. In one instance, I observed up to 20 times speedup in one of my add-ons, and that was with an app module (optimizing add-ons, and for that matter, Python 2/3 code requires hours of dedication, including willingness to go beyond just reading source code; for this reason, whenever I set out to optimize my add-ons, I disassemble bytecode; for anyone tempted to just ship binary Python modules, I guarantee that at least one member of the add-ons community (including I) will disassemble pyc files).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Poll: I think ducking should go; and other NVDA features proposal and wider discussion

 

That's something I can't comment on. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 1:58 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not. For every global plugin that gets integrated (or not), NVDA must loop through them to figure out what to do with a specific NVDA object. Different add-ons have different ways of dealing with events – some won’t pass on events to other subsystems.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.

 

If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.

 

If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

• Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
• Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
• Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
• Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
• Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
• Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

I believe you were correct Brian.

accessibilitycentral.net/How%20to%20use%20the%20Mail%20app%20in%20Window...

is the site I went to.

 

                                                                                                                                If all I have left in this world is God, I have everything!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2019 9:59 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 mail

 

I would also say that often merely trying again straight away fixes it. I

notice it for example on pages containing adverts where the google server is

not fast enough in responding resulting in a page of some data but with bits

of it reporting server not found or 404 error in the middle of the text. Its

not browser specific, so I imagine its latency when the net is busy.

As you say without the link we are , um blind!

Brian

 

bglists@...

Sent via blueyonder.

Please address personal E-mail to:-

briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'

in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...>

To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Sent: Friday, April 26, 2019 4:33 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Windows 10 mail

 

 

> On 26 Apr 2019, at 1:29, Robert Doc Wright godfearer wrote:

> 

>> I found a link on Google for using windows 10 mail with NVDA.

>  And yu did not give the link so none of us can test it. Also what

> browser are you running? I expect to see  a full on bug report if able.

> 

>

> 

>

 

 

 

 

Hi,

I think we may need to consider other forms of bloat, namely performance, memory usage, conflicts and what not. For every global plugin that gets integrated (or not), NVDA must loop through them to figure out what to do with a specific NVDA object. Different add-ons have different ways of dealing with events – some won’t pass on events to other subsystems.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:53 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.

 

If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.

 

If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

• Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
• Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
• Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
• Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
• Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
• Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

The reason I discussed size is that that has been the main reason given by people who oppose this idea.  You have pointed out lots of other considerations but my point is that if you add a good many add-ons, that doesn't necessarily mean the program will be bloated.  It may be that some are large enough for this to be a concern but many are small.

 

If they are added, they will be compressed in the installation package just as all code is, which is why I said that I was giving the size before installation.  that is to indicate that when you get the NVDA.exe file, where everything is compressed anyway, adding a good many add-ons won't necessarily make the exe file much larger.

 

If there are errors in my logic, I'll be interested to see that discussed but I suspect that bloat is being made far too much of as a reason to oppose a number of add-ons being added to the program itself.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Joseph Lee

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hi,

I must disagree with just using size as the measure of quality of add-ons:

• Size: add-ons are small because they are compressed – they are essentially zipped packages. When uncompressed, it can take more space.
• Performance: size is just one factor; what makes add-ons usable is perceived performance – some add-ons are known for causing performance issues if not tuned carefully (I have learned that the hard way while optimizing StationPlaylist Studio add-on).
• Dependencies: some add-ons depend on one another for proper operations, and for some, causes conflicts. The most cited problem is command conflicts.
• Services used: some add-ons rely on external services that could be terminated at any time. We saw this the first hand with WeatherPlus add-on, and hope to never go through that problem again (thus I am strongly not in favor of including that particular add-on into NVDA Core).
• Factors beyond NVDA: there are add-ons that require additional licenses to be obtained, and for some, designed with something in addition to NVDA in mind. In case of the former, we are talking about speech synthesizers, and the latter is the reason why I cannot allow the entire package from Windows 10 App Essentials to be included in NVDA in one go (Windows 10 is a service, therefore uses continuous delivery, which means it is way faster to let users meet changed bits through the add-on).
• Copyrights on add-ons themselves: not all add-ons are copyrighted through GPL, and those that might not be, we lost touch with authors of these add-ons. It isn’t just a simple matter of changing the copyright header – we need to obtain permission from original authors/copyright holders to proceed with licensing their add-ons under a different copyright. For my own add-ons, I still hold copyright to ones I have actually created and do maintain, but did license them under GPL to meet copyright requirements and to comply with copyright notice from NVDA itself. The add-ons community had a huge debate on this issue before, hence the reason why any add-on that does not comply with copyright and license requirements of GPL (hence, what NVDA is actually licensed under) immediately fails basic add-on review process – if that happens, other reviews cannot proceed until license and copyright issue is resolved.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:56 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

First, as to the size of add-ons, my impression is that they are generally small and that you can incorporate many, perhaps a large number, without making the program larger enough to matter to any extent.  Those who work with add-ons technically will, I hope, discuss the matter.

 

I have a few add-ons in case I want to use or reinstall them at some point.  I just checked one.  It's only 5.90 KB for its download size.  Another is 2.76 KB as the download size.

 

Some may be much larger than others and the two I looked at may not be representative but large size can't be assumed to be a problem.

 

It isn't just a matter of size.  Even if the program is somewhat larger, the benefits to a lot of users who, I suspect, would never know about add-ons, might far outweigh the larger program size in terms of possible inconvenience.

 

Size may be of concern if you are going to add add-ons with no limit over time but I doubt we are near that point now.

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 9:26 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

 

Hi Vlad,

 

I agree with you on the ducting.  I don't use it a lot with NVDA because I use a computer and long before ducting, I used 2 separate sound cards and have total control.  However, I am using ducting on the iPhone and the way Apple has instituted it works great and is definitely an advantage.  For those who can't run 2 separate sound cards, it is truly a godsend.

 

As far as including a huge number of add-ons with NVDA, I  also disagree with this one.  One of the good things about NVDA is that it is under public license and is subject to a lot of different additions and variations. I would hate to see it become so bulky that is gets like JAWS which has so much bloteware and features that many people don't use that it is at times extremely redundant.  People in developing countries probably appreciate the slim and streamline aspects of NVDA.  If they need it only for word processing, why should they have to include a bunch of add-ons that would make the download so much larger and perhaps create a situation where there could be conflicts with their desired tasks.

 

...just my opinion.

 

On 4/28/2019 8:57 AM, Vlad Dragomir wrote:

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.

-- 

They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.

They ask: "How Happy are You?"

I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

remote should totally be rolled into NVDA.

On 4/28/19, Devin Prater <r.d.t.prater@...> wrote:

I knew about the page, but I’ve never seen an Outlook add-on, neither there
before nor discussed on list. This is great, and if it helps with the
control+. (Period) in speaking the next message automatically that it lands
on, then Outlook may become my email client of choice on Windows, if using
it because even better than using Gmail.

On Apr 28, 2019, at 9:22 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 09:56 AM, Devin Prater wrote:
Wait, there's an addon for Outlook?
When I see things like this my jaw drops? The official NVDA Add-Ons
Page, whose address has been posted hundreds of times, is:
https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html.
<https://addons.nvda-project.org/index.en.html>

Each add-on is presented, by title, as a link on the page. If you, any
you, who've been an NVDA user and participant on any NVDA related
list/forum for a long time have never bothered to go there and do a
cruise-through of the links to see what's what you have no one to blame
but yourselves.

I'm not about to give the actual link in this case, but the fact that
there is an add-on named Outlook Extended answers that question.

[The above may not apply to Devin if that comment was in jest, but it
certainly applies to any member who's been on this list for at least a
month. Go look, and if you need to activate an add-on title to get a
further description of its function, well . . . ]
--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763
Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.
~ Edward Abbey

Jean, thats pardon my english, a piss poor way to view it.

If this is the case maybe we should put the addons repo in a more prominant position and other things, its allready on the manage addons page, maybe the welcome screen, maybe as a tip at startup for first time users, maybe if you think its needed well.

Nvda can run just as well without addons in most cases.

In fact on slower systems I use, I have had to run it with no addons but essential ones like the win10 apps addon.

I do think, that certain addons should come preinstalled or at least be installed after install like addon updater and win10apps if using win10 for example and addon updater is a must.

But no user needs every addon.

Most of my addons are program support addons for example.

I have a few features that I like and thats it.

Others have synths, others have different configurations.

Out of all the addons, I could go with just program supports and to be honest if I had to I could go without most addons at all with exception of win10 apps, addon updater, calibre, dropbox, if interpritors, vlc, goldwave, teamtalk and winamp.

Those are what I use others may have different things to use.

I have used nvda without addons for ages before I used it with and sure I know about addons a lot more and use a lot more but don't use everything as an addon.

I

Still like my speech synths to be a universally accessible for all programs thing for example.

To be honest, if people have that much trouble thinking about addons, maybe we should call them plugins or even extentions like every other brouser manufacturer is calling them who knows.

I personally think we are doing enough but I guess we could do more.

We can only tell people where to get addons.

The only private addon I use is the japanese translater addon from blindaudiogames.com which is quite crappy and useless if you don't play certain games in a certain language and have an account with that site for example.

Which I do.

Its not a translater, just for a few games in japanese from certain authors in a certain situation.

Since nvda can have custom addons to, well.

As for letting people know about where they can get addons, depending on what they are doing, Usually and this is for software etc I use on other's system I tend to install everything they need, and or may need then keep it updated, now if the user wants to know they can ask me.

A lot really don't they just want it working.

Addons may be an exception to that rule I grant you that at least.

I havn't heard anyone saying that addons are not in a more prominant position.

Saying that, this does bring a small spin in my original discussion.

I know quite well bar the alegal repos full of pirated stuff that the nvda addons site is not the only repo for addons, in fact I do think nvda's addons and download sites should be mirrored in case we ever lost the main site or got it hacked or something.

And we should encourage more repos of addons maybe have on the addons site, github and other places for authors repos for those interested, maybe expand the pages with a list of addon devs, a bio about each, maybe even have all that under different pages as well as the addons themselves.

We should have the ability for nvda to download addons without people going to the site to initially get them, for example I have never needed to go to addons.mozilla.org to get addons though I can do it that way of course.

I think that perhaps the most important reason to add certain add-ons to the program itself is that a lot of NVDA users don't know, and won't know, that add-ons exist or where to get them. 

 

I'm very curious if anyone has any idea what percent of NVDA users use add--ons and knows where to get them and how to see what is available.  It may not be practical to do such a study but I'd be surprised if more than thirty or forty percent of NVDA users use add-ons.  And some of those users may use ones that instructors told them about or installed.  The user may not know where to get them or where to find out what is available.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Vlad Dragomir

Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:57 AM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] pole, I think ducking should go and other nvda features proposal and wider discussion

Hello,

 

Interesting topic! Personally I only agree with half of it. It would be indeed great if at least some add-ons became part of NVDA, and I would include Screen Curtain among those.

 

On the other hand, I totally oppose the exclusion of the ducking function. It’s extremely useful, especially with  services like Youtube  or Google Play Music. Often it’s the only way to hear the screen reader without having to close everything else.

 

Let’s see what other opinions come up!

 

Cheers,

 

Vlad.