Date   

Re: NVDA in Employment

Luke Davis
 

On Sun, 25 Aug 2019, Andy B. wrote:

Aside the user interface design, NVDA is a deal breaker with software/web development because the autocomplete features of most IDEs like VS Code,
Notepad++, and Visual Studio don’t work with screen readers, or lack in usability. NVDA’s support for autocomplete in these editors/IDEs is lacking at best
In notepad++ at least, with Derek's add-on, autocomplete works just fine. And I thought they had fixed the vscode autocomplete issue in core, but could be wrong about that.

Luke


Re: NVDA in Employment

 

Put most simply:

1.  All screen readers currently available and supported, and by that I mean JAWS, NVDA, Narrator and VoiceOver (on the Apple Platforms) handle most of the functions used by most users, across settings, be they at home or in the workplace, very, very well.

2.  Each has specific things it may do much better or much worse than one or more of the others.

3.  It is often not the screen reader that is a problem so much as what it is working over top of.

4.  Any screen reader user should, ideally, expect that there will be the occasional situations where "my favorite" is not the best for doing a given task with a given program.  Given that JAWS is the only one in the list above that requires licensing (and use in 40-minute mode is allowed even if you don't have one) and NVDA allows the creation of a portable version on USB media, a wise user will know enough about using the core functions they usually need in two or more.

5.  Narrator is going to become a major force on Windows much like VoiceOver has been on the Apple platforms for years.   Microsoft has clearly made a huge commitment to accessibility unlike anything they ever had done in the past.   This being the case, one would be wise to learn the functions of Narrator one commonly uses with either JAWS or NVDA as one's primary because it will be available, without cost or installation, under Windows 10.

There is no best screen reader sans the specific usage contexts in which it will run.   I've seen that from every angle so many times I don't care to count.   Asking about what's best or asserting what's best sans very clear defining parameters regarding usage is a fool's errand.

A screen reader is no different than other tools, including physical ones.  What's best is directly defined by what one needs to do with it and how good said tool is at doing it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


Re: NVDA in Employment

Monte Single
 

I've been using nvda with m s outlook for several years and have had no real
problems.
I am certain I am not the only person with this experience.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy B.
Sent: August-25-19 4:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

A few things here.

1. NVDA has been the most standards compliant for years, at least that you
know of... Do you have documentation that NVDA is the most standards
compliant Windows-based screen reader? I wouldn't call NVDA standards
compliant when the only effective email client NVDA works with is the
web-based version of Gmail. When TB sometimes lags for hours, Windows 10
Mail doesn't read well and you have to make use of notepad to type email,
and NVDA+Outlook results in the error bell going off like the closing bell
on Wallstreet, it doesn't sound very compliant. There are truck loads of
other issues, but I digress.
2. Software developers are increasingly required to create standards
compliant software. Do you have evidence from the U.S. Supreme court or
other international governing body that standards compliant software is an
absolute must? If so, what are those standards and penalties for violating
the standards? This sounds more like an advocacy problem than an NVDA/JAWS
problem. Each platform seems to have its own set of standards. UIA for
Microsoft, IAccessible and IAccessible2 for browsers and most desktop
software, atspi for Linux systems, and who knows what for MAC? In fact,
Windows has implemented UIA since 2016, but NVDA still uses IA2 for most
desktop/application access, and if they don't, they hide it in their APIs.
3. It is foolish to claim open source is not safe in the workplace. You seem
to be taking this point from an NVDA users perspective. If you take it from
the typical IT manager's perspective, the light turns in a different
direction. Assuming the IT department isn't familiar with Python, IA2, UIA,
and focused objects, scripting in Python becomes a problem. Besides, most AT
software and hardware gains popularity through a good marketing plan. NVDA
doesn't seem to have a good marketing plan, else they would have become
direct competitor's with JAWS. In any case, most IT managers have no clue
about AT and how it works. Thus, they will go with the product most
advertised and sought after in the accessibility space.
4. Surprising your disability support person even knew the difference
between JAWS and NVDA. Most schools never heard of them, or if they have,
know nothing about what they do or how they work.
5. The point of AT software and hardware is to gain access to, and use the
accessibility framework implemented in the operating system. Its other job
is to compensate for a lack in such accessibility framework. Hence, why JAWS
works better in VS code and Visual Studio better than NVDA, especially with
autocomplete.

Andy Borka
Accessibility Engineer

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 2:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@gmail.com>
wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset. I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility is
a thing. When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer you
away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek in
your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view. Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters. A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department. Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional. The prices I
have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends. It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software.
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates accessibility
API's that comply with recognized standards. Screen readers provide access
using the API's and standards. Software manufacturers are increasingly
legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility standards and
implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by the system.
Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to procure
technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility standards
so that it can work with access technologies. NVDA has been considered the
most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish. If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet? If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses? NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations. If your corporate network is secure, than running
NVDA can't possibly be less secure than running say adobe reader, which is
a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do. I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto. I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense. Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag. This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's. At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe lag
in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml designer,
rad tools, and unit testing among other things. If ms could say their
product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an ineficiency in
NVDA. Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers and in VSCode
though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on.
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for
accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this. I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5. I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016, windows
10 mail, and other things. In helping jaws users the last year or so, I've
seen an issue where displaying web content poops out. Jaws scripts still
have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be re-installed. And
they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues such as laptops
switching video cards for various power profiles and ditching the
authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college. He told me that in general nvda was working much better on college
systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this semester
compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was way over
priced. This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I was
registering for courses. At that time, jaws was everything according to
this guy. He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it for me
because I insisted. He was also dead set against mac and has had to rethink
that position too. :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16. It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me. Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA. Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing." He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers. I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,


Re: ALVA 544 Satellite Traveller braille display with NVDA

David Csercsics
 

Yes, it's called braille extender, and it should work, according to the nvda docs. I don't have that display, but assuming you can get it connected, it should work. I think there is some sort of protocol converter or something for older alva displays, but I'm not sure how that works.


Re: NVDA in Employment

Andy B.
 

A few things here.

1. NVDA has been the most standards compliant for years, at least that you
know of... Do you have documentation that NVDA is the most standards
compliant Windows-based screen reader? I wouldn't call NVDA standards
compliant when the only effective email client NVDA works with is the
web-based version of Gmail. When TB sometimes lags for hours, Windows 10
Mail doesn't read well and you have to make use of notepad to type email,
and NVDA+Outlook results in the error bell going off like the closing bell
on Wallstreet, it doesn't sound very compliant. There are truck loads of
other issues, but I digress.
2. Software developers are increasingly required to create standards
compliant software. Do you have evidence from the U.S. Supreme court or
other international governing body that standards compliant software is an
absolute must? If so, what are those standards and penalties for violating
the standards? This sounds more like an advocacy problem than an NVDA/JAWS
problem. Each platform seems to have its own set of standards. UIA for
Microsoft, IAccessible and IAccessible2 for browsers and most desktop
software, atspi for Linux systems, and who knows what for MAC? In fact,
Windows has implemented UIA since 2016, but NVDA still uses IA2 for most
desktop/application access, and if they don't, they hide it in their APIs.
3. It is foolish to claim open source is not safe in the workplace. You seem
to be taking this point from an NVDA users perspective. If you take it from
the typical IT manager's perspective, the light turns in a different
direction. Assuming the IT department isn't familiar with Python, IA2, UIA,
and focused objects, scripting in Python becomes a problem. Besides, most AT
software and hardware gains popularity through a good marketing plan. NVDA
doesn't seem to have a good marketing plan, else they would have become
direct competitor's with JAWS. In any case, most IT managers have no clue
about AT and how it works. Thus, they will go with the product most
advertised and sought after in the accessibility space.
4. Surprising your disability support person even knew the difference
between JAWS and NVDA. Most schools never heard of them, or if they have,
know nothing about what they do or how they work.
5. The point of AT software and hardware is to gain access to, and use the
accessibility framework implemented in the operating system. Its other job
is to compensate for a lack in such accessibility framework. Hence, why JAWS
works better in VS code and Visual Studio better than NVDA, especially with
autocomplete.

Andy Borka
Accessibility Engineer

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 2:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@gmail.com>
wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset. I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility is
a thing. When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer you
away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek in
your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view. Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters. A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department. Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional. The prices I
have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends. It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software.
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates accessibility
API's that comply with recognized standards. Screen readers provide access
using the API's and standards. Software manufacturers are increasingly
legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility standards and
implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by the system.
Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to procure
technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility standards
so that it can work with access technologies. NVDA has been considered the
most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish. If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet? If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses? NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations. If your corporate network is secure, than running
NVDA can't possibly be less secure than running say adobe reader, which is
a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do. I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto. I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense. Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag. This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's. At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe lag
in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml designer,
rad tools, and unit testing among other things. If ms could say their
product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an ineficiency in
NVDA. Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers and in VSCode
though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on.
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for
accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this. I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5. I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016, windows
10 mail, and other things. In helping jaws users the last year or so, I've
seen an issue where displaying web content poops out. Jaws scripts still
have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be re-installed. And
they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues such as laptops
switching video cards for various power profiles and ditching the
authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college. He told me that in general nvda was working much better on college
systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this semester
compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was way over
priced. This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I was
registering for courses. At that time, jaws was everything according to
this guy. He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it for me
because I insisted. He was also dead set against mac and has had to rethink
that position too. :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16. It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me. Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA. Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing." He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers. I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,


Re: NVDA in Employment

Gene
 

It appears to me that you are trying much too hard from what looks to me to be a defend NVDA position rather than a what is in the real world position.
 
I'll begin by saying that I am retired and I didn't use computers in my work.  And if I had, I wouldn't have had a perspective of the general situation.  However, I offer these observations for people to agree or disagree with. 
 
NVDA has no way for the user to designate frames and have things happen in those frames.  I helped someone years ago who wanted a screen-reader to do certain specific things when she logged on and worked with a transcribing program in a VPN.  The only way NVDA could be made to do the things would have been to have one or more scripts.  The whole point of Frames in JAWS and what Window-eyes called windows and hyperactive windows, was that you could define a part of the screen, have it read when you issue a command, or have the screen-reader monitor that part of the screen and read it when any change occurred, or take some sort of action if certain text appeared or disappeared in the frame. 
There may be technical reasons why NVDA can't have that feature.  But it is a significant deficiency for some, perhaps many, work situations and other settings where customization is necessary.  Aside from how many NVDA scripters there are, a lot of people can learn to work with frames who wouldn't have the interest in learning how to script. 
 
Let's say, though this isn't a work situation, but it is analogous to what I understand is often the case, that I wanted to play a game, have certain parts of the screen read in a certain order and have certain parts of the screen monitored to speak automatically when a specific thing appeared on those parts of the screen and to have that reading interrupt current reading.  All this can be done with frames.
 
And two other important workplace features.  Can NVDA be made to indicate a capital letter when using read to end or up and down arrowing, reading by line?  This is important in the workplace and anywhere else where people proof materials such as reports or papers, as in schools and colleges.  Also, it is my recollection, that JAWS can be made to indicate extra spaces in a document.  I suspect it can indicate other things such as two periods, etc, when reading or moving line by line.  Can NVDA do that?
 
While it may be that standards are being implemented more in software, I doubt the implementation is anywhere near adequate in the wide range of programs used by businesses.
 
Having said all that, NVDA meets the needs of a lot of users and is an enormous contribution to blind peoples' access to computers.  I'm not overlooking or denegrating that.  But I remain to be convinced that JAWS is no longer a better option in many work situations.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@...> wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset.  I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility
is a thing.  When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer
you away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek
in your head.

 The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view.  Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters.  A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department.  Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional.  The prices
I have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends.  It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software. 
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates
accessibility API's that comply with recognized standards.  Screen readers
provide access using the API's and standards.  Software manufacturers are
increasingly  legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility
standards and implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by
the system.  Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to
procure technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility
standards so that it can work with access technologies.  NVDA has been
considered the most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as
far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish.  If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet?  If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses?  NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations.  If your corporate network is secure, than
running NVDA can't possibly be less secure  than running say adobe reader,
which is a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do.  I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto.  I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense.  Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag.  This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's.  At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe
lag in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml
designer, rad tools, and unit testing among other things.  If ms could say
their product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an
ineficiency in NVDA.  Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers
and in VSCode though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on. 
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for accessibility.

 and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this.  I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5.  I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016,
windows 10 mail, and other things.  In helping jaws users the last year or
so, I've seen an issue where displaying web content poops out.  Jaws
scripts still have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be
re-installed.  And they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues
such as laptops switching video cards for various power profiles and
ditching the authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
 When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college.  He told me that in general nvda was working much better on
college systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this
semester compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was
way over priced.  This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I
was registering for courses.  At that time, jaws was everything according
to this guy.  He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it
for me because I insisted.  He was also dead set against mac and has had to
rethink that position too.  :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16.  It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me.  Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA.  Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing."  He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers.  I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with  equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,









Re: ALVA 544 Satellite Traveller braille display with NVDA

Richard Turner <richardturner42@...>
 

Did you install the NVDA addon called something like Braille Extender?
But, that is such an old display, I'm not sure it will work with Windows 10.
But, try the Braille extender, or whatever its called. I am not at home where I can check.


Richard

Always look out for #1, and be careful not to step in #2. 


On Aug 25, 2019, at 1:44 PM, Mohammadreza Rashad <mohammadreza5712@...> wrote:

Hello dear friends,
I've borrowed an abovementioned braille display, and want to use it
with NVDA. I connect the display using a USB cable. when I restart the
computer, it displayed that it's OK and waiting for connection. But
when NVDA starts, the display doesn't function.
I think that I should install its driver, because Windows says that
the driver is unavailable, but I couldn't find any driver for it. I
even installed BRLTTY, but it didn't recognize the display. What
should I do to use the display with NVDA?
Windows 10.1903 x64, NVDA 2019.2, ALVA 544 Satellite Traveler braille display.

--
    Best wishes,
    Mohammadreza Rashad




Re: NVDA in Employment

Tony Malykh
 

My two cents: I use NVDA at work. My reasons are:
1. Superior scripting. I wrote half a dozen NVDA add-ons that greatly boost my productivity. For example, IndentNav, TextNav, BrowserNav. Writing similar scripts for Jaws would be hard since I'd have to learn new scripting language, and I was told (correct me if I'm wrong) some of my add-ons would be impossible to implement in Jaws scripting model since it is more limited in nature.
2. Better maintenance. Let's be honest, both NVDA and Jaws do have bugs. However I am delighted to observe that NVDA bugs do get fixed in a very timely fashion. An example of that would be recent breakage of Notepad++, that was fixed within only 10 days. To give you example from the other side, command prompt in Jaws had been broken for two years (approximately entire 2016 and 2017) and all my attempts to talk to Jaws customer support ended up with pretty generic messages "we're working hard on it, but it's not our fault anyways." This was actually the reason why I switched to NVDA - it is hard to keep your job knowing that an essential tool can get broken for years.
it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open source.
It is allowed at my work. Now I've indeed heard of cases when IT department wouldn't allow you to use NVDA with this excuse. It is important to understand the difference between real reasons and excuses. This one sounds to me like an excuse - there is nothing whatsoever in open-source software that makes it inherently insecure. However there are people in IT departments, who are lazy, and sometimes dumb - pardon my French. And in order to avoid doing a little bit of work, they might just reject NVDA with this excuse. On the positive side, it seems to me this happens rarely enough these days.
--Tony


On 8/25/2019 4:38 AM, kelby carlson wrote:
Hi, everyone,

I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down" solution. The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"), that it was not able to be scripted as easily, it didn't work well with as much proprietary software, and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open source.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work, and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

Also, does NVDA have a skim reading feature like JAWS?


Re: Anybody have a podcatcher recommendation?

chris miles
 

On 25/08/2019 07:44, John Isige wrote:
Googling I find this thread from 2017.


https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/topic/podcatcher_with_nvda/6012532?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,380,6012532


As has been pointed out in that thread, QCast doesn't work anymore, at least for me it's stopped playing or downloading unless there's been an update which I doubt. I too don't have a device, nor do I want to use iTunes because it's clunky garbage, ditto with the webbIE stuff. QCast worked just fine for me and I wish it still did. But it doesn't, so here I am. I don't want Apple anything, I'm not buying a device, and I don't want to do my own googling for podcasts and chasing down URLs and pasting them in somewhere and hoping they'll download. Basically, I want something a lot like QCast, exactly like it if it can be managed, that actually downloads and plays podcasts. In particular downloading to folders would be nice, since there was a podcast for learning Irish flute tunes I want to chase down again. I thought I'd grabbed a bunch and saved them somewhere but I'm not finding them, hence the need for a working podcatcher. I know I've tried a few before, though I can't remember names, before coming across QCast that weren't really accessible. This is under Windows 10 if it matters, and latest NVDA obviously. Anybody have any recommendations?




Hi,


Try Sharp Reader.


It works well with Windows 10 and once you have entered in the web address, this program will automatically download the next episode.


Hot keys:


Press F6 shows list of folders

Press F7 when on a folder, brings up list of feeds in the selected folder

Press F8 brings up URL - if using JAWS press shift and tab highligh link and then press enter

Press context and you can sort by name; i.e. the folders will be indexed alphabetically.


I have been using this programme for several years and it seems to work great.??


ALVA 544 Satellite Traveller braille display with NVDA

Mohammadreza Rashad
 

Hello dear friends,
I've borrowed an abovementioned braille display, and want to use it
with NVDA. I connect the display using a USB cable. when I restart the
computer, it displayed that it's OK and waiting for connection. But
when NVDA starts, the display doesn't function.
I think that I should install its driver, because Windows says that
the driver is unavailable, but I couldn't find any driver for it. I
even installed BRLTTY, but it didn't recognize the display. What
should I do to use the display with NVDA?
Windows 10.1903 x64, NVDA 2019.2, ALVA 544 Satellite Traveler braille display.

--
Best wishes,
Mohammadreza Rashad


Re: NVDA in Employment

 

By the way, I have updated the topic title so that if future searchers were looking for the terms NVDA and employment the title would match as well as some of the messages.

If you respond to the topic using this message, it will carry the corrected title along.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


Re: how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

Kevin Cussick
 

Yes, instructions correct and if you fill things in properly it should work.

On 25/08/2019 14:26, Chris Mullins wrote:
Hi
The instructions given are correct. Note there are 2 entries each for bang and tick, you will have to enter a new replacement for all entries.
Cheers
Chris
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis L
Sent: 25 August 2019 10:32
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe
Those instructions didn’t work.
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Doc Wright godfearer
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 4:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe
Open NVDA menu
Preferences
Punctuation/symbol pronunciation
Arrow down to the symbol you wish to change and tab once. Clear the field and type what you want to hear.
******
Jesus says, follow me and I'll help you through the rough spots.
the world says, hey come with me. My way is broad and easy. So what if you get crap on your shoes. You can always wash it off, can't you! Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Dennis L <mailto:dennisl1982@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 11:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe
Hi, how do I change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe


Re: NVDA in Employment

Sky Mundell
 

Hello Eric. I can confirm exactly what you are saying. I work as an adaptive
technology specialist at Pacific Training Centre for the blind and we use
NVDA with our students, and we also do JAWS as well but on the computers we
have, as you said, JAWS sometimes work, it sometimes doesn't. NVDA, on the
other hand, has no problems at all. For instants, when I go and check for
updates on the computers at work JAWS says the word "blank" all the time
when I use the JAWS curser but NVDA has no problems with it and it doesn't
say blank all the time. Even updating JAWS doesn't help. I think part of it
is that IT departments think that if it is free, it isn't comparable to
JAWS, but, what we need to focus on is the why it is free. The reason why it
is free is to help those folks who couldn't fork out to buy an expensive
solution. That was why NVDA started out in the first place. Also, it has a
unique model in that you can donate. So, while your getting the product for
free, you can still donate to the product and keep it going. It isn't like a
software that is just free and has no way to donate. It's actually what I
would call it a donation baste product.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik
burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 11:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@gmail.com>
wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset. I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility
is a thing. When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer
you away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek
in your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view. Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters. A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department. Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional. The prices
I have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends. It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software.
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates
accessibility API's that comply with recognized standards. Screen readers
provide access using the API's and standards. Software manufacturers are
increasingly legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility
standards and implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by
the system. Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to
procure technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility
standards so that it can work with access technologies. NVDA has been
considered the most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as
far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish. If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet? If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses? NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations. If your corporate network is secure, than
running NVDA can't possibly be less secure than running say adobe reader,
which is a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do. I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto. I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense. Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag. This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's. At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe
lag in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml
designer, rad tools, and unit testing among other things. If ms could say
their product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an
ineficiency in NVDA. Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers
and in VSCode though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on.
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for
accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this. I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5. I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016,
windows 10 mail, and other things. In helping jaws users the last year or
so, I've seen an issue where displaying web content poops out. Jaws
scripts still have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be
re-installed. And they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues
such as laptops switching video cards for various power profiles and
ditching the authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college. He told me that in general nvda was working much better on
college systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this
semester compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was
way over priced. This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I
was registering for courses. At that time, jaws was everything according
to this guy. He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it
for me because I insisted. He was also dead set against mac and has had to
rethink that position too. :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16. It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me. Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA. Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing." He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers. I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,


Re: reading from mouse pointer

 

William,

           May I ask if you are using any mouse pointer enhancements not provided by Windows itself?   That could make a difference.

            Also, if using one of the regular pointer sets and sizes (and please note the size) from Microsoft, which one?  You should find this information under Control Panel, Mouse Properties, Pointers tab.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


reading from mouse pointer

willmac@lantic.net
 

I have a problem with NVDA in that it does not start reading from the Mouse items below the Pointer and in my emails it reads from about 2 cm below the pointer.

This I could handle in the past but with my progressive sight impairment I find it most frustrating.

Is there any way to ensure that NVDA always reads from the mouse pointer.

I do not like to play the age card but at 91 - if anyone can help please try to explain as detailed as possible. I might add that I have tried most of the settings from time to time.
I would be most grateful for any help I can get.

Regards,
William


Re: Searching for Colored Text

Jackie
 

Insert f brings up that info.

Kelby, Jaws does have a scripting feature wherein colors can be
searched for. Having said that, & having worked w/it for many years,
ie, nearly 25, I can tell you that the reliability of the feature can
be pretty iffy at best.

I don't know how true these rumors are, though I suspect they do have
veracity, & that is that the mirror display driver that Jaws has will,
at some point in the future, no longer be permitted by Microsoft,
simply because of the security holes such a driver opens up. It's not
something we like to talk about on public lists, for very obvious
reasons, as we're not wont to give the sickos out there, of whom there
are many, any amunition, but let's just say it's a disaster waiting to
happen, &, in this case, it's 1 of the few areas where the relative
smallness & perceived nonprofitability of our population has worked in
our favor. If that happens, then at least some of the methodologies
that Jaws uses to search for colors will also disappear.

On 8/25/19, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
Kelby,

I do not know if the github entries referenced here:
http://nabble.nvda-project.org/NVDA-Does-NVDA-read-highlighted-text-td38134.html
will prove helpful, but that topic was posted elsewhere back in 2015 and the
ticket(s) have to do with background/foreground color of text.

I know that it's possible to have NVDA tell you what the background color is
on the text you are currently viewing is, but I'll be darned if I can
remember how to do it.
--

Brian *-* Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362

*The color of truth is grey.*

~ André Gide



--
Subscribe to a WordPress for Newbies Mailing List by sending a message to:
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& check out my sites at www.brighter-vision.com & www.mysitesbeenhacked.com


Re: NVDA in Employment

Vincent Le Goff <vincent.legoff.srs@...>
 

Well, there were a lot of comments on this topic and I just want to answer the question: who use NVDA for/at work?

 

And I’ll add one to the list.  I’ve been using NVDA for 10 years (back then it may not have been that stable, arguably). Last year I worked as an IT engineer and accessibility developer and that was the first time I really had to play with Jaws scripts and Jaws accessibility.  My opinion was similar to the one expressed in previous posts: Jaws sounded way overpriced for a tool that didn’t look that stable (yeah, I could crash it several times and it wasn’t even my scripting then) and had several bugs (I found more bugs in Jaws with Braille than I found in NVDA, which was a great and somewhat pleasant surprise to me).  If I can spend my time working on NVDA addons instead of Jaws scripts, I will be happy.  Only my two cents!

 

Vincent

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: erik burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 8:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

 

Hi Kelby

On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@...> wrote:

 

 

I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is

bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"

solution.

 

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen

readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset.  I've seen

this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility

is a thing.  When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer

you away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek

in your head.

 

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not

customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

 

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common

things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

 

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

 

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than

jaws and I subscribe to this view.  Consider, there are many more python

programmers in the world than jaws scripters.  A company can script NVDA in

house using their own IT department.  Otherwise, the company needs to

outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional.  The prices

I have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.

it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

 

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends.  It is

no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software. 

In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates

accessibility API's that comply with recognized standards.  Screen readers

provide access using the API's and standards.  Software manufacturers are

increasingly  legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility

standards and implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by

the system.  Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to

procure technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility

standards so that it can work with access technologies.  NVDA has been

considered the most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as

far as I know,.

 

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open

source.

 

Extrordinarily foolish.  If open source software is insecure, why is it

powering the commercial internet?  If commercial software is inherantly

secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows

against viruses?  NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to

install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands

of computer workstations.  If your corporate network is secure, than

running NVDA can't possibly be less secure  than running say adobe reader,

which is a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

 

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

 

I do.  I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application

developer for wholenote media in Toronto.  I've experienced some of the

things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using

intelisense.  Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag.  This is the

fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with

standards or even properly implementing their own API's.  At least, if you

want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe

lag in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml

designer, rad tools, and unit testing among other things.  If ms could say

their product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an

ineficiency in NVDA.  Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers

and in VSCode though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on. 

We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for accessibility.

 

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

 

I couldn't speak to this.  I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5.  I

have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have

experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016,

windows 10 mail, and other things.  In helping jaws users the last year or

so, I've seen an issue where displaying web content poops out.  Jaws

scripts still have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be

re-installed.  And they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues

such as laptops switching video cards for various power profiles and

ditching the authorization.

 

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.

 When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college

employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the

college.  He told me that in general nvda was working much better on

college systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this

semester compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was

way over priced.  This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I

was registering for courses.  At that time, jaws was everything according

to this guy.  He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it

for me because I insisted.  He was also dead set against mac and has had to

rethink that position too.  :-)

 

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call

centre back in 16.  It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me.  Their IT

guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA.  Jaws

won't even load up on our systems for testing."  He also told me they would

script NVDA in house using their python programmers.  I didn't get hired,

but I don't think it had anything to do with  equipment and resources.

 

Hope this helps,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

Tyler Spivey
 

It didn't read the apostrophe because you missed the not so obvious step of turning your symbol level to all when opening that dialog.
NVDA doesn't automatically do this, even though you opened the dialog you would most likely want to hear all the symbols in.

On 8/25/2019 12:14 PM, Annette Moore wrote:
I did manage to get the apostrophe spoken correctly per Robert's instructions, but I had to use a different synthe than the Windows OneCore voices to do it because none of them would recognize the apostrophe and speak it to me so I knew which symbol to modify. It just appears as a blank space in the OneCore synthe. I should've just used your method, Giles, and gone through the speech dictionary. that probably would've been much less complicated. Well, all's well that ends well. I have my apostrophes spoken correctly now, so that's what matters.
Have a great day!
Annette
On 8/25/2019 8:14 AM, Giles Turnbull wrote:
I added dictionary entries so that they get spoken how I wish. It has worked for me, though I've only done it for the left and right versions, “” and ‘ which I get NVDA to say "left/right quote" for the first pair and "left/right tick" for the second pair. I lived in USA for 5 years so am quite comfrtable with hearing tick instead of apostrophe and bang instead of exclamation mark. I figure you can get NVDA to say anything you wish using the default speach dictionary :)

Giles


Re: how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

Annette Moore
 

I did manage to get the apostrophe spoken correctly per Robert's instructions, but I had to use a different synthe than the Windows OneCore voices to do it because none of them would recognize the apostrophe and speak it to me so I knew which symbol to modify. It just appears as a blank space in the OneCore synthe. I should've just used your method, Giles, and gone through the speech dictionary. that probably would've been much less complicated. Well, all's well that ends well. I have my apostrophes spoken correctly now, so that's what matters.

Have a great day!

Annette

On 8/25/2019 8:14 AM, Giles Turnbull wrote:
I added dictionary entries so that they get spoken how I wish. It has worked for me, though I've only done it for the left and right versions, “” and ‘ which I get NVDA to say "left/right quote" for the first pair and "left/right tick" for the second pair. I lived in USA for 5 years so am quite comfrtable with hearing tick instead of apostrophe and bang instead of exclamation mark. I figure you can get NVDA to say anything you wish using the default speach dictionary :)

Giles


Re: Searching for Colored Text

 

Kelby,

I do not know if the github entries referenced here:  http://nabble.nvda-project.org/NVDA-Does-NVDA-read-highlighted-text-td38134.html
will prove helpful, but that topic was posted elsewhere back in 2015 and the ticket(s) have to do with background/foreground color of text.

I know that it's possible to have NVDA tell you what the background color is on the text you are currently viewing is, but I'll be darned if I can remember how to do it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide