Date   

Re: NVDA in Employment

David Csercsics <bleeblat@...>
 

I'll have to check into that. When I last checked you could only do one of them or the other, but they may have changed now.


The new microsoft edge chromium based browser troubles with nvda not going to browse mode

hurrikennyandopo ...
 

Hi guys


In the stable version of NVDA 2019.2 NVDA works nicely with the new Microsoft Edge chromium based browser.


I just downloaded the latest snap shot of the Alfa branch to keep on testing it with and it looks like the browse mode function is broken. It seems to be stuck in focus mode and will not change to browse mode with nvda key + space bar.


Has any one else noticed this with the latest alfa of NVDA it still seems to be working ok with google browser etc that I have on this computer but not the chromium based microsoft edge at present.


I am wondering if some thing has corrupted in the alfa snap shot so am asking others for feed back to see if it is.


Gene nz


--
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


Re: A point on email clients

Tony Malykh
 

There are many command-line email clients, that you can try. One of the most popular ones is alpine, I have heard that blind people managed to successfully use it. I have to confess I haven't tried it myself, but in light of all the problems with Thunderbird I might consider that as well soon. It probably won't support HTML though.

On 8/25/2019 8:58 AM, Vincent Le Goff wrote:
Hi everyone,


This has been reported for a few weeks or months and things are getting worse, so I'm afraid I'll have to leave the Thunderbird community.  The client is getting extremely sluggish.  It behaves well for sighted users but the thing is not reporting information to NVDA in less than a few seconds for each key press, especially for us unfortunate relying on Braille.  Enough is enough. Thunderbird served its purpose but I need a fast email client and can't spend 2 hours reading my 100 daily emails (yep, I happen to receive lots of emails).


But this "ragequit" will pose some problems.  The first, and obvious, is: what to use now?  Relying on Microsoft products doesn't sit too well, I'm already doing a lot of that, but it seems there aren't so many choices.  For awhile I heard about an open-source email client specifically created for accessibility, but I can't remember what the name was, who created it, and Google can't help me.


So the debate is open: let's avoid the flamewar if possible, but what are you using?  What would be more fitting with NVDA?  I have a few requirements:


- I'm running on Windows 10 (64-bit). Can't do without that.

- I have two accounts and possibly three, so I need to have support for several email accounts and simple switches between them.

- I need support for iMap, which is basically the only protocol I used to retreieve messages.

- Support for simple text and HTML content is obviously a strong bonus.


Thanks in advance for your advice!


Vincent



Re: NVDA in Employment

 

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 06:43 PM, David Csercsics wrote:
I was able to track down the thunderbird slowness to Google's silly behaviour of archiving mail instead of deleting it from the server when I deleted it in the client.
David,

          Now we need to figure out why, as neither Tbird nor WLM 2012 do that for me, but Outlook 2016 does.   And now that I've checked the settings on the two Gmail accounts I was using, this appears to be a function of Gmail Settings, Forwarding and POP/IMAP.   Under those settings, IMAP section, there are two entries:

When I mark a message in IMAP as deleted:
with the options auto-expunge on (and when I have this turned on messages are not archived and the options in the next section are stippled and inaccessible)
                          auto-expunge off

The entry that follows is, When a message is marked as deleted and expunged from the last visible IMAP folder:, with three options which, if available a single one is selected via a radio button:
  1. Archive the message (default)
  2. Move the message to trash
  3. Immediately delete the message

So when I have auto-expunge on, it's behaving as though auto-expunge is off but with the "Move message to trash" radio button selected.  When trashed the message is not retained in the archive and is permanently expunged from the server after 30 days.

One could also, clearly, have auto-expunge off but direct Google to immediately delete the message, which bypasses the trash folder entirely.

          There has got to be some client-side setting that indicates to Gmail whether a delete is actually a delete, in which case the message gets moved to Trash under the Gmail folder hierarchy, or archive, in which case the Inbox label is removed but the message still exists in All Mail.

           I have found the setting in Gmail's own app, and articles regarding same, easily.  Tracking it down for the other e-mail clients is not so easy.

Brian

 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


Re: how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

Robert Doc Wright godfearer
 

One other note I forgot to mention: You can determine when it should be spoken based on what you have your symbol level set to.  Also if you tab over further you will see an option to send to synthesizer. Switch it to always.

 

 ******

Jesus says, follow me and I'll help you through the rough spots.

the world says, hey come with me. My way is broad and easy. So what if you get crap on your shoes. You can always wash it off, can't you!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Richard Turner
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 8:13 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

 

Now that was extremely helpful.

After replacing both incidents of each, it works perfectly!

 

 

 

Richard

 

🖖 Live long and prosper

 

 

Check out my web site at: www.turner42.com

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chris Mullins
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 6:27 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

 

Hi

The instructions given are correct.  Note there are 2 entries each for bang and tick, you will have to enter a new replacement for all entries.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis L
Sent: 25 August 2019 10:32
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

 

Those instructions didn’t work.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Doc Wright godfearer
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 4:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

 

Open NVDA  menu

Preferences

Punctuation/symbol pronunciation

Arrow down to the symbol you wish to change and tab once. Clear the field and type what you want to hear.

 

 ******

Jesus says, follow me and I'll help you through the rough spots.

the world says, hey come with me. My way is broad and easy. So what if you get crap on your shoes. You can always wash it off, can't you!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Dennis L
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 11:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

 

Hi, how  do I   change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

 

 


Re: how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

Robert Doc Wright godfearer
 

That is odd because it worked for me and is still working now.

 

 ******

Jesus says, follow me and I'll help you through the rough spots.

the world says, hey come with me. My way is broad and easy. So what if you get crap on your shoes. You can always wash it off, can't you!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Dennis L
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 3:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

 

Those instructions didn’t work.

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Robert Doc Wright godfearer
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 4:42 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

 

Open NVDA  menu

Preferences

Punctuation/symbol pronunciation

Arrow down to the symbol you wish to change and tab once. Clear the field and type what you want to hear.

 

 ******

Jesus says, follow me and I'll help you through the rough spots.

the world says, hey come with me. My way is broad and easy. So what if you get crap on your shoes. You can always wash it off, can't you!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Dennis L
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 11:56 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] how to change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

 

Hi, how  do I   change bang to exclamation and tick to apostrophe

 

 


Re: ALVA 544 Satellite Traveller braille display with NVDA

 

Install the driver from its disk that came with it.

I found this out with a humanware display I borrowed, the website driver in this case didn't work and I had to install the driver from the driver disk.

On 26/08/2019 8:44 AM, Mohammadreza Rashad wrote:
Hello dear friends,
I've borrowed an abovementioned braille display, and want to use it
with NVDA. I connect the display using a USB cable. when I restart the
computer, it displayed that it's OK and waiting for connection. But
when NVDA starts, the display doesn't function.
I think that I should install its driver, because Windows says that
the driver is unavailable, but I couldn't find any driver for it. I
even installed BRLTTY, but it didn't recognize the display. What
should I do to use the display with NVDA?
Windows 10.1903 x64, NVDA 2019.2, ALVA 544 Satellite Traveler braille display.


Re: NVDA in Employment

Gene
 

Will GMail let you set up both a POP3 account and an IMAP account for the same GMail account using an e-mail program? 
If you can do this, you can switch to the pop account, which you would have set not to download mail automatically, download the mail for whatever period of time you decide to let pass, check the latest messages to see if there is anything new, then delete all the mail you have downloaded except anything new.
 
Don't send it to sent mail, completely delete it.  if you can set up a pop and IMAP accountin Thunderbird, that would be the fastest and most convenient way to clear the inbox.
 
Gene 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Employment

I was able to track down the thunderbird slowness to Google's silly
behaviour of archiving mail instead of deleting it from the server when
I deleted it in the client. I'm not sure how to get around this, other
than to go on the web mail and clean out the mail periodically, though I
think telling it to sync only 30 days worth of stuff should get me a lot
of the way there as well. I had something like 8 years of mail synced to
"all mail" locally, so no wonder it'd be slow. Even SSD would be slow
with a 7 gig data chunk like that.






Re: A point on email clients

 

I havn't used anything over thunderbird 60.8.0 but yeah, I don't care for ms products.

There is old out dated eudora but not sure about other things, there was a thing called thebat but I don't know about anything else at all.

On 26/08/2019 3:58 AM, Vincent Le Goff wrote:
Hi everyone,


This has been reported for a few weeks or months and things are getting worse, so I'm afraid I'll have to leave the Thunderbird community.  The client is getting extremely sluggish.  It behaves well for sighted users but the thing is not reporting information to NVDA in less than a few seconds for each key press, especially for us unfortunate relying on Braille.  Enough is enough. Thunderbird served its purpose but I need a fast email client and can't spend 2 hours reading my 100 daily emails (yep, I happen to receive lots of emails).


But this "ragequit" will pose some problems.  The first, and obvious, is: what to use now?  Relying on Microsoft products doesn't sit too well, I'm already doing a lot of that, but it seems there aren't so many choices.  For awhile I heard about an open-source email client specifically created for accessibility, but I can't remember what the name was, who created it, and Google can't help me.


So the debate is open: let's avoid the flamewar if possible, but what are you using?  What would be more fitting with NVDA?  I have a few requirements:


- I'm running on Windows 10 (64-bit). Can't do without that.

- I have two accounts and possibly three, so I need to have support for several email accounts and simple switches between them.

- I need support for iMap, which is basically the only protocol I used to retreieve messages.

- Support for simple text and HTML content is obviously a strong bonus.


Thanks in advance for your advice!


Vincent



.


Re: Anybody have a podcatcher recommendation?

 

I do have itunes but I like to manually download podcasts myself.

For subscribing to podcasts if they have subscribe by email then I subscribe via that, most of them use mailchimp or feedburner.

Feedburner is part of google so if you have a google account then you have access to that.

I am unsure if you can post your own casts on there but I should try and see.



On 25/08/2019 10:47 PM, Marcio via Groups.Io wrote:
John,
I've used a few of these podcasters but currently I'm definitely not into podcasts. So, while I can give you links with the programs I really can't give details. Sorry :(

Well, let's go.
While using podcasters, I found HermesPod quite good and easy to use. It's also very light, perhaps your best bet.
There's also Vov Podcast Downloader. This one will crash a lot but it's perfectly usable. Some people will say that this is totally intentional so that you buy the Pro version. I won't say I don't believe them :)
Lastly, there's Accessible Podcatcher. As the name suggests, it's indeed accessible. It's been made for the blind from day one.
However, maybe this isn't the best podcaster among these three ones. You can try and see what you think, either way.

That's it. Hope this helps a bit :)

Cheers,
Marcio AKA Starboy

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.

--
Are you a Thunderbird user? Then join the Thunderbird mailing list to help and be helped with all Thunderbird things - questions, features, add-ons and much more!

John Isige wrote:
Googling I find this thread from 2017.


https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/topic/podcatcher_with_nvda/6012532?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,380,6012532


As has been pointed out in that thread, QCast doesn't work anymore, at least for me it's stopped playing or downloading unless there's been an update which I doubt. I too don't have a device, nor do I want to use iTunes because it's clunky garbage, ditto with the webbIE stuff. QCast worked just fine for me and I wish it still did. But it doesn't, so here I am. I don't want Apple anything, I'm not buying a device, and I don't want to do my own googling for podcasts and chasing down URLs and pasting them in somewhere and hoping they'll download. Basically, I want something a lot like QCast, exactly like it if it can be managed, that actually downloads and plays podcasts. In particular downloading to folders would be nice, since there was a podcast for learning Irish flute tunes I want to chase down again. I thought I'd grabbed a bunch and saved them somewhere but I'm not finding them, hence the need for a working podcatcher. I know I've tried a few before, though I can't remember names, before coming across QCast that weren't really accessible. This is under Windows 10 if it matters, and latest NVDA obviously. Anybody have any recommendations?


Re: NVDA in Employment

David Csercsics <bleeblat@...>
 

I was able to track down the thunderbird slowness to Google's silly behaviour of archiving mail instead of deleting it from the server when I deleted it in the client. I'm not sure how to get around this, other than to go on the web mail and clean out the mail periodically, though I think telling it to sync only 30 days worth of stuff should get me a lot of the way there as well. I had something like 8 years of mail synced to "all mail" locally, so no wonder it'd be slow. Even SSD would be slow with a 7 gig data chunk like that.


Re: A point on email clients

Luke Davis
 

Vincent, I observe that you are already using Gmail. That leads to two points: you must be okay with giving them access to your email, so why not the big Microsoft overlord? Tongue in cheek of course. The second point is more relevant: have you considered using the Gmail web interface for your mail? If I recall correctly, there are at least two modes you can use that in; one of them might work in a way you enjoy.

Just a thought.

All that said, if you are using a local IMAP client, be it outlook or windows mail, or anything else, Microsoft or not, the provider shouldn't have any access to your mail. That is not generally how it works. I imagine there would be massive outcry among business customers, if it was learned that MS was sucking in all the mail they transacted using Outlook, especially given Microsoft's well known policy of "if it passes through our servers, it's our data".
So I very much doubt your concern is valid here.

Luke

On Sun, 25 Aug 2019, Vincent Le Goff wrote:

Hi Gene,
Thanks for y6our answer.  Hehe, I think Microsoft has enough data on me, giving it my email doesn't sound great.  But yeah, let's imagine they don't keep
this data!  As I was saying I really can't use Thunderbird much (even writing this somewhat short message is a pain).
I've tried eM client today, light and fast, like I wanted, but not accessible as far as I can tell.  So I guess I will need to find WLM somewhere.  But I
must admit it's a big disappointment to me who places so much on open- source technology, so going from Thunderbird to Microsoft is a downgrade, not in
terms of feature, but in terms of philosophy, if that makes any sense.
Thanks again,
Vincent
On 8/25/2019 6:10 PM, Gene wrote:
What is wrong with using Windows Live Mail?  And what is wrong with using Microsoft products in general?  Some of the utilities and programs
included with Windows are designed to be easy to use and don't have options more advanced or demanding users might want or need.  But a general
avoidance of Microsoft products may lead to unnecessary problems or unnecessary time and effort looking for something else that works well. 
 
Windows Live Mail is completely accessible.  you can use the old menu version or the newer ribbon version.  You have to get it from someone, because
Microsoft no longer supports and distributes it. 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Vincent Le Goff
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 10:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] A point on email clients
Hi everyone,
This has been reported for a few weeks or months and things are getting
worse, so I'm afraid I'll have to leave the Thunderbird community.  The
client is getting extremely sluggish.  It behaves well for sighted users
but the thing is not reporting information to NVDA in less than a few
seconds for each key press, especially for us unfortunate relying on
Braille.  Enough is enough. Thunderbird served its purpose but I need a
fast email client and can't spend 2 hours reading my 100 daily emails
(yep, I happen to receive lots of emails).
But this "ragequit" will pose some problems.  The first, and obvious,
is: what to use now?  Relying on Microsoft products doesn't sit too
well, I'm already doing a lot of that, but it seems there aren't so many
choices.  For awhile I heard about an open-source email client
specifically created for accessibility, but I can't remember what the
name was, who created it, and Google can't help me.
So the debate is open: let's avoid the flamewar if possible, but what
are you using?  What would be more fitting with NVDA?  I have a few
requirements:
- I'm running on Windows 10 (64-bit). Can't do without that.
- I have two accounts and possibly three, so I need to have support for
several email accounts and simple switches between them.
- I need support for iMap, which is basically the only protocol I used
to retreieve messages.
- Support for simple text and HTML content is obviously a strong bonus.
Thanks in advance for your advice!
Vincent


Re: NVDA in Employment

 

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 06:10 PM, Andy B. wrote:
When TB sometimes lags for hours, Windows 10
Mail doesn't read well and you have to make use of notepad to type email,
and NVDA+Outlook results in the error bell going off like the closing bell
on Wallstreet, it doesn't sound very compliant.
Well, those examples do not comport with what I've observed in the field over some period of time.

And, as far as the NVDA and Thunderbird issues, those are far from universal, which should tell those having issues something.  And that something is:  Most Computer Issues Are Idiosyncratic – Not Global

 


It doesn't matter if we're talking about NVDA, or Windows, or Linux, or whatever.   If the vast majority of users are not experiencing the same issues, even if some notable subset is, that strongly suggests issues with the systems on which the problems are occurring rather than with the software itself.  When there is a major bug that affects virtually all users, and those are exceedingly rare, then you have a clear indicator of exactly where the fault lies.  'Twas ever thus, and ever will be.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


Re: NVDA in Employment

Luke Davis
 

On Sun, 25 Aug 2019, Andy B. wrote:

Aside the user interface design, NVDA is a deal breaker with software/web development because the autocomplete features of most IDEs like VS Code,
Notepad++, and Visual Studio don’t work with screen readers, or lack in usability. NVDA’s support for autocomplete in these editors/IDEs is lacking at best
In notepad++ at least, with Derek's add-on, autocomplete works just fine. And I thought they had fixed the vscode autocomplete issue in core, but could be wrong about that.

Luke


Re: NVDA in Employment

 

Put most simply:

1.  All screen readers currently available and supported, and by that I mean JAWS, NVDA, Narrator and VoiceOver (on the Apple Platforms) handle most of the functions used by most users, across settings, be they at home or in the workplace, very, very well.

2.  Each has specific things it may do much better or much worse than one or more of the others.

3.  It is often not the screen reader that is a problem so much as what it is working over top of.

4.  Any screen reader user should, ideally, expect that there will be the occasional situations where "my favorite" is not the best for doing a given task with a given program.  Given that JAWS is the only one in the list above that requires licensing (and use in 40-minute mode is allowed even if you don't have one) and NVDA allows the creation of a portable version on USB media, a wise user will know enough about using the core functions they usually need in two or more.

5.  Narrator is going to become a major force on Windows much like VoiceOver has been on the Apple platforms for years.   Microsoft has clearly made a huge commitment to accessibility unlike anything they ever had done in the past.   This being the case, one would be wise to learn the functions of Narrator one commonly uses with either JAWS or NVDA as one's primary because it will be available, without cost or installation, under Windows 10.

There is no best screen reader sans the specific usage contexts in which it will run.   I've seen that from every angle so many times I don't care to count.   Asking about what's best or asserting what's best sans very clear defining parameters regarding usage is a fool's errand.

A screen reader is no different than other tools, including physical ones.  What's best is directly defined by what one needs to do with it and how good said tool is at doing it.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

The color of truth is grey.

           ~ André Gide

 

 


Re: NVDA in Employment

Monte Single
 

I've been using nvda with m s outlook for several years and have had no real
problems.
I am certain I am not the only person with this experience.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy B.
Sent: August-25-19 4:10 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

A few things here.

1. NVDA has been the most standards compliant for years, at least that you
know of... Do you have documentation that NVDA is the most standards
compliant Windows-based screen reader? I wouldn't call NVDA standards
compliant when the only effective email client NVDA works with is the
web-based version of Gmail. When TB sometimes lags for hours, Windows 10
Mail doesn't read well and you have to make use of notepad to type email,
and NVDA+Outlook results in the error bell going off like the closing bell
on Wallstreet, it doesn't sound very compliant. There are truck loads of
other issues, but I digress.
2. Software developers are increasingly required to create standards
compliant software. Do you have evidence from the U.S. Supreme court or
other international governing body that standards compliant software is an
absolute must? If so, what are those standards and penalties for violating
the standards? This sounds more like an advocacy problem than an NVDA/JAWS
problem. Each platform seems to have its own set of standards. UIA for
Microsoft, IAccessible and IAccessible2 for browsers and most desktop
software, atspi for Linux systems, and who knows what for MAC? In fact,
Windows has implemented UIA since 2016, but NVDA still uses IA2 for most
desktop/application access, and if they don't, they hide it in their APIs.
3. It is foolish to claim open source is not safe in the workplace. You seem
to be taking this point from an NVDA users perspective. If you take it from
the typical IT manager's perspective, the light turns in a different
direction. Assuming the IT department isn't familiar with Python, IA2, UIA,
and focused objects, scripting in Python becomes a problem. Besides, most AT
software and hardware gains popularity through a good marketing plan. NVDA
doesn't seem to have a good marketing plan, else they would have become
direct competitor's with JAWS. In any case, most IT managers have no clue
about AT and how it works. Thus, they will go with the product most
advertised and sought after in the accessibility space.
4. Surprising your disability support person even knew the difference
between JAWS and NVDA. Most schools never heard of them, or if they have,
know nothing about what they do or how they work.
5. The point of AT software and hardware is to gain access to, and use the
accessibility framework implemented in the operating system. Its other job
is to compensate for a lack in such accessibility framework. Hence, why JAWS
works better in VS code and Visual Studio better than NVDA, especially with
autocomplete.

Andy Borka
Accessibility Engineer

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 2:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@gmail.com>
wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset. I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility is
a thing. When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer you
away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek in
your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view. Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters. A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department. Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional. The prices I
have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends. It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software.
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates accessibility
API's that comply with recognized standards. Screen readers provide access
using the API's and standards. Software manufacturers are increasingly
legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility standards and
implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by the system.
Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to procure
technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility standards
so that it can work with access technologies. NVDA has been considered the
most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish. If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet? If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses? NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations. If your corporate network is secure, than running
NVDA can't possibly be less secure than running say adobe reader, which is
a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do. I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto. I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense. Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag. This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's. At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe lag
in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml designer,
rad tools, and unit testing among other things. If ms could say their
product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an ineficiency in
NVDA. Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers and in VSCode
though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on.
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for
accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this. I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5. I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016, windows
10 mail, and other things. In helping jaws users the last year or so, I've
seen an issue where displaying web content poops out. Jaws scripts still
have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be re-installed. And
they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues such as laptops
switching video cards for various power profiles and ditching the
authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college. He told me that in general nvda was working much better on college
systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this semester
compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was way over
priced. This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I was
registering for courses. At that time, jaws was everything according to
this guy. He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it for me
because I insisted. He was also dead set against mac and has had to rethink
that position too. :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16. It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me. Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA. Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing." He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers. I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,


Re: ALVA 544 Satellite Traveller braille display with NVDA

David Csercsics <bleeblat@...>
 

Yes, it's called braille extender, and it should work, according to the nvda docs. I don't have that display, but assuming you can get it connected, it should work. I think there is some sort of protocol converter or something for older alva displays, but I'm not sure how that works.


Re: NVDA in Employment

Andy B.
 

A few things here.

1. NVDA has been the most standards compliant for years, at least that you
know of... Do you have documentation that NVDA is the most standards
compliant Windows-based screen reader? I wouldn't call NVDA standards
compliant when the only effective email client NVDA works with is the
web-based version of Gmail. When TB sometimes lags for hours, Windows 10
Mail doesn't read well and you have to make use of notepad to type email,
and NVDA+Outlook results in the error bell going off like the closing bell
on Wallstreet, it doesn't sound very compliant. There are truck loads of
other issues, but I digress.
2. Software developers are increasingly required to create standards
compliant software. Do you have evidence from the U.S. Supreme court or
other international governing body that standards compliant software is an
absolute must? If so, what are those standards and penalties for violating
the standards? This sounds more like an advocacy problem than an NVDA/JAWS
problem. Each platform seems to have its own set of standards. UIA for
Microsoft, IAccessible and IAccessible2 for browsers and most desktop
software, atspi for Linux systems, and who knows what for MAC? In fact,
Windows has implemented UIA since 2016, but NVDA still uses IA2 for most
desktop/application access, and if they don't, they hide it in their APIs.
3. It is foolish to claim open source is not safe in the workplace. You seem
to be taking this point from an NVDA users perspective. If you take it from
the typical IT manager's perspective, the light turns in a different
direction. Assuming the IT department isn't familiar with Python, IA2, UIA,
and focused objects, scripting in Python becomes a problem. Besides, most AT
software and hardware gains popularity through a good marketing plan. NVDA
doesn't seem to have a good marketing plan, else they would have become
direct competitor's with JAWS. In any case, most IT managers have no clue
about AT and how it works. Thus, they will go with the product most
advertised and sought after in the accessibility space.
4. Surprising your disability support person even knew the difference
between JAWS and NVDA. Most schools never heard of them, or if they have,
know nothing about what they do or how they work.
5. The point of AT software and hardware is to gain access to, and use the
accessibility framework implemented in the operating system. Its other job
is to compensate for a lack in such accessibility framework. Hence, why JAWS
works better in VS code and Visual Studio better than NVDA, especially with
autocomplete.

Andy Borka
Accessibility Engineer

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 2:27 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@gmail.com>
wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset. I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility is
a thing. When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer you
away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek in
your head.

The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view. Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters. A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department. Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional. The prices I
have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends. It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software.
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates accessibility
API's that comply with recognized standards. Screen readers provide access
using the API's and standards. Software manufacturers are increasingly
legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility standards and
implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by the system.
Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to procure
technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility standards
so that it can work with access technologies. NVDA has been considered the
most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish. If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet? If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses? NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations. If your corporate network is secure, than running
NVDA can't possibly be less secure than running say adobe reader, which is
a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do. I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto. I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense. Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag. This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's. At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe lag
in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml designer,
rad tools, and unit testing among other things. If ms could say their
product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an ineficiency in
NVDA. Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers and in VSCode
though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on.
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for
accessibility.

and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this. I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5. I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016, windows
10 mail, and other things. In helping jaws users the last year or so, I've
seen an issue where displaying web content poops out. Jaws scripts still
have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be re-installed. And
they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues such as laptops
switching video cards for various power profiles and ditching the
authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college. He told me that in general nvda was working much better on college
systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this semester
compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was way over
priced. This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I was
registering for courses. At that time, jaws was everything according to
this guy. He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it for me
because I insisted. He was also dead set against mac and has had to rethink
that position too. :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16. It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me. Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA. Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing." He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers. I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,


Re: NVDA in Employment

Gene
 

It appears to me that you are trying much too hard from what looks to me to be a defend NVDA position rather than a what is in the real world position.
 
I'll begin by saying that I am retired and I didn't use computers in my work.  And if I had, I wouldn't have had a perspective of the general situation.  However, I offer these observations for people to agree or disagree with. 
 
NVDA has no way for the user to designate frames and have things happen in those frames.  I helped someone years ago who wanted a screen-reader to do certain specific things when she logged on and worked with a transcribing program in a VPN.  The only way NVDA could be made to do the things would have been to have one or more scripts.  The whole point of Frames in JAWS and what Window-eyes called windows and hyperactive windows, was that you could define a part of the screen, have it read when you issue a command, or have the screen-reader monitor that part of the screen and read it when any change occurred, or take some sort of action if certain text appeared or disappeared in the frame. 
There may be technical reasons why NVDA can't have that feature.  But it is a significant deficiency for some, perhaps many, work situations and other settings where customization is necessary.  Aside from how many NVDA scripters there are, a lot of people can learn to work with frames who wouldn't have the interest in learning how to script. 
 
Let's say, though this isn't a work situation, but it is analogous to what I understand is often the case, that I wanted to play a game, have certain parts of the screen read in a certain order and have certain parts of the screen monitored to speak automatically when a specific thing appeared on those parts of the screen and to have that reading interrupt current reading.  All this can be done with frames.
 
And two other important workplace features.  Can NVDA be made to indicate a capital letter when using read to end or up and down arrowing, reading by line?  This is important in the workplace and anywhere else where people proof materials such as reports or papers, as in schools and colleges.  Also, it is my recollection, that JAWS can be made to indicate extra spaces in a document.  I suspect it can indicate other things such as two periods, etc, when reading or moving line by line.  Can NVDA do that?
 
While it may be that standards are being implemented more in software, I doubt the implementation is anywhere near adequate in the wide range of programs used by businesses.
 
Having said all that, NVDA meets the needs of a lot of users and is an enormous contribution to blind peoples' access to computers.  I'm not overlooking or denegrating that.  But I remain to be convinced that JAWS is no longer a better option in many work situations.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in Emploandenp

Hi Kelby
On August 25, 2019 7:39:31 AM "kelby carlson" <kelbycarlson@...> wrote:


I hope this isn't too off-topic. I recently heard an argument that NVDA is
bad for blind prospect's in employment because it is the "dumbed down"
solution.

That sounds like the blather of some one who recommended commercial screen
readers for 20 years and is now having their apple cart upset.  I've seen
this time and time again and will keep seeing it as long as accessibility
is a thing.  When some one has to use dirision rather than fact to steer
you away from one product and ttowards another, an alarm bell should shreek
in your head.

 The person arguing this elaborated, saying that NVDA is not
customizable/flexible enough (too chatty"),

This is a matter of personal preference, but I can make NVDA do the common
things such as punctuation level that I sometimes need to configure.

that it was not able to be scripted as easily,

Now, I have heard argued the other point that NVDA is easier to scrypt than
jaws and I subscribe to this view.  Consider, there are many more python
programmers in the world than jaws scripters.  A company can script NVDA in
house using their own IT department.  Otherwise, the company needs to
outsource jaws scripting to an access technology professional.  The prices
I have seen quoted range from $500 per hour to $150 per line.
it didn't work well with as much proprietary software,

An argument that shows no understanding of access technology trends.  It is
no longer the purview of a screen reader to work with particular software. 
In the current and emerging model, an operating system creates
accessibility API's that comply with recognized standards.  Screen readers
provide access using the API's and standards.  Software manufacturers are
increasingly  legally and socially obligated to comply with accessibility
standards and implement API's and ffeatures for accessibility provided by
the system.  Employers are increasingly legally and socially obligated to
procure technology hardware and software that complies with accessibility
standards so that it can work with access technologies.  NVDA has been
considered the most standards compliant screen rreader for several years as
far as I know,.

and that it wouldn't be allowed on secure environments due to being open
source.

Extrordinarily foolish.  If open source software is insecure, why is it
powering the commercial internet?  If commercial software is inherantly
secure, why do we need to spend billians of dollars protecting windows
against viruses?  NVD'S licencing makes it time and cost efficient to
install across large networks such as call centre floors holding thousands
of computer workstations.  If your corporate network is secure, than
running NVDA can't possibly be less secure  than running say adobe reader,
which is a known constantly volnerable commercial product.

So my question is this: how many people here use NVDA for work,

I do.  I'm a compuuter programming student working as a web application
developer for wholenote media in Toronto.  I've experienced some of the
things members are saying about programming tools such as long delays using
intelisense.  Not 30 seconds but finger-chompingly long lag.  This is the
fault of software developers such as Microsoft for not complying with
standards or even properly implementing their own API's.  At least, if you
want me to consider that there might be something in NVDA causing severe
lag in microsoft intelisense, how about giving us full access to xaml
designer, rad tools, and unit testing among other things.  If ms could say
their product was up to snuff, then I'd consider that there's an
ineficiency in NVDA.  Otherwise, autocomplete works well for me in browsers
and in VSCode though I haven't tried in notepadplusplus with the add on. 
We can talk about it when visual studio becomes truly viable for accessibility.

 and is there a notable dilerence in level of usability with JAWS?

I couldn't speak to this.  I haven't used jaws since the days of 4.5.  I
have provided some computer training on jaws systems though and have
experienced significant frustration using google chrome, excel 2016,
windows 10 mail, and other things.  In helping jaws users the last year or
so, I've seen an issue where displaying web content poops out.  Jaws
scripts still have a bent for corrupting themselves and needing to be
re-installed.  And they still haven't figured out how to deal with issues
such as laptops switching video cards for various power profiles and
ditching the authorization.

I was at the college last week getting set up for my fall semester classes.
 When I sat down with my access technologist, a nondisabled college
employee, he imediately expressed frustration to me over use of jaws in the
college.  He told me that in general nvda was working much better on
college systems than jaws, nvda is superior at the maths I have to do this
semester compared to jaws, and he thought for it's effectiveness, jaws was
way over priced.  This is a complete turnaround from 2.5 years ago when I
was registering for courses.  At that time, jaws was everything according
to this guy.  He was extremely skeptical of NVDA and only implemented it
for me because I insisted.  He was also dead set against mac and has had to
rethink that position too.  :-)

I've told the story many times about going into the interview at the call
centre back in 16.  It looked like they were gung hoe to hire me.  Their IT
guy that I was working with said, "thank god you really wanted NVDA.  Jaws
won't even load up on our systems for testing."  He also told me they would
script NVDA in house using their python programmers.  I didn't get hired,
but I don't think it had anything to do with  equipment and resources.

Hope this helps,









Re: ALVA 544 Satellite Traveller braille display with NVDA

Richard Turner <richardturner42@...>
 

Did you install the NVDA addon called something like Braille Extender?
But, that is such an old display, I'm not sure it will work with Windows 10.
But, try the Braille extender, or whatever its called. I am not at home where I can check.


Richard

Always look out for #1, and be careful not to step in #2. 


On Aug 25, 2019, at 1:44 PM, Mohammadreza Rashad <mohammadreza5712@...> wrote:

Hello dear friends,
I've borrowed an abovementioned braille display, and want to use it
with NVDA. I connect the display using a USB cable. when I restart the
computer, it displayed that it's OK and waiting for connection. But
when NVDA starts, the display doesn't function.
I think that I should install its driver, because Windows says that
the driver is unavailable, but I couldn't find any driver for it. I
even installed BRLTTY, but it didn't recognize the display. What
should I do to use the display with NVDA?
Windows 10.1903 x64, NVDA 2019.2, ALVA 544 Satellite Traveler braille display.

--
    Best wishes,
    Mohammadreza Rashad