Date   

Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Chris Mullins
 

Hi Quentin

Thanks for the tip re the asterisk in Notepad files.  I’d noticed it but didn’t know what it meant.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Quentin Christensen
Sent: 7 November 2019 22:40
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:

In Notepad, when pressing control+s:

- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports that.

- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the title bar.

 

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:

- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window appears and NVDA reports that.

- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command keys is on to report "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.

- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

 

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.

 

Kind regards

 

Quentin.

 

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 

 

Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

 

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hi

 

If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.

 

he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.

 

If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.

 

Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.

 

If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.

 

Gene nz

 

On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:

Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 

 

Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

 

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.

 

Listening for His shout!

Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS

 

--
Error! Filename not specified.

Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.


 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 


locked Re: the opera browser

Robert Doc Wright godfearer
 

It seems to work well with Opera.

 

******

character is found in how you treat people who cannot do anything for you!                                                                       

 

From: Arlene
Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2019 11:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] the opra browser

 

What? Opera browser still exists?  I’ve heard of it when I was on the jaws list. Not the list that Debbi Scales ran. She was for beginners and advancing users. I was on the list for more advanced users. There was where I heard about the Opera Browser. Can anybody use it? Or is it for more advanced users where they do computer coding? Sorry for the long message. I thought Opera was a thing of the past.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: zahra
Sent: November 7, 2019 10:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] the opra browser

 

i just tried it one time and it worked.

i dont remember which version i installed.

 

On 11/8/19, Bobby Vinton <vinton.bobby5277@...> wrote:

> Hay I was wondering if the opera browser works with a screen reader such

> as nvda?  just let me know and I will try it

>

 

 

--

By God,

were I given all the seven heavens

with all they contain

in order that

I may disobey God

by depriving an ant

from the husk of a grain of barley,

I would not do it.

imam ali

 

 

 

 


Re: Links on websites with submenus and/or links that NVDA can't interact with

Robert Doc Wright godfearer
 

I just tested it with Opera web browser and it works fine. Why are there so many “skip navigation links”?

 

******

character is found in how you treat people who cannot do anything for you!                                                                       

 

From: Sile via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2019 1:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Links on websites with submenus and/or links that NVDA can't interact with

 

Hello, would anybody be willing to have a look at a webpage off-line for me. It’s having similar issues with drop-down boxes, but I don’t think it’s related to JavaScript.

 

I’ve never seen this particular behavior before, so I just want to understand what’s going on.

 

Sile

> On Nov 7, 2019, at 9:10 PM, Joshua Tubbs <orin8722@...> wrote:

>

> Hmm. Were you using Chrome?

>

> I'll have to double check to see if JavaScript is on in Chrome.

>

>

>

>> On 11/6/19, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

>> I just looked at the site with JAVA script on.  I followed one of the links

>> and it opened another page as a standard link does.  I see that the site has

>> a login place, and you didn't say if you did so.  I didn't look enough to

>> see if features are available if you log in that aren't otherwise, but the

>> entire home page appears accessible to me.  In addition, between each of the

>> navigation links is a link that says skip navigation links.  You really only

>> need one but since someone put a skip link after every navigation link, that

>> strongly implies to me that the site was designed to be accessible, even if

>> this or that accomodation may be overdoing it.

>>

>> I'm not sure what accounts for your problems or if, given more information,

>> we can see them.  But just going to the site and looking around doesn't show

>> me any.

>>

>> Gene

>> ----- Original Message -----

>>

>>    Hi all,

>>

>>    I just visited the following website:

>>

>>    http://canadianxpress.ca/

>>

>>    I notice that when going there, there is a number sign at the end of

>>    the address. There are multiple websites I've found like this, and

>>    each time I've encountered issues.

>>    On this particular site I believe the main links open up drop downs

>>    with additional links underneath the main one. Is there a way, whether

>>    via addons or other, to make this and other sites like this usable,

>>    short of contacting the webmaster who may or may not change the links

>>    to make them clickable? Jaws simply announces the links as mouse

>>    overs, but has the same result as NVDA. I've come across sites where

>>    to hover over content, you can simply activate object navigation and

>>    route the mouse cursor to the link in question and more information

>>    will be present. Not with this one, however...

>>

>>    Any help would be appreciated. Tried switching browsers as well.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

>

 

 

 


Re: Nvda and products Eset antivirus are already in order

Jarek.Krcmar
 

Hi quentin,

Nvda now really works with Eset.

Here is an information from support in the Czech Republic.

colleagues inform me that their readers to test machines are working, you need to have installed HIPS module in version 1374 (verifiable section updates) and import settings in the appendix (in the Settings - Import).

I send you the file, that may be imported into the products Eset.


Jarek
Dne 08.11.2019 v 9:45 Quentin Christensen napsal(a):

Hi Jarek,

Does Eset work with NVDA now?  I had someone ask (elsewhere) about it, and when I approached Eset, they had no idea and no interest in looking into it.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 7:11 PM Jarek.Krcmar <Jarek.Krcmar@...> wrote:
Hello group Nvda,

Some months ago I wrote, that Eset antivirus doesn't work in Nvda.

I would like to inform you, that it's already in older.

It is necessary have in Eset installed a module HIP, it is a Screen Config

If any from you is an user of product Eset, do visit support of Eset.


--
Jarek






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: Nvda and products Eset antivirus are already in order

Quentin Christensen
 

Hi Jarek,

Does Eset work with NVDA now?  I had someone ask (elsewhere) about it, and when I approached Eset, they had no idea and no interest in looking into it.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 7:11 PM Jarek.Krcmar <Jarek.Krcmar@...> wrote:
Hello group Nvda,

Some months ago I wrote, that Eset antivirus doesn't work in Nvda.

I would like to inform you, that it's already in older.

It is necessary have in Eset installed a module HIP, it is a Screen Config

If any from you is an user of product Eset, do visit support of Eset.


--
Jarek






--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


locked Re: the opera browser

Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
 

O! And I tested it with NVDA.  Cheers!

On 11/8/2019 4:28 PM, Jaffar Sidek wrote:

HI all.  I actually have replaced Chrome with Opera as my default browser and have no cause to regret my action.  It is a fast, efficient browser with a real effective ad blocker that gets rid of ads that litter articles you want to read.  While chrome promotes those ads, Opera blocks them, allowing you to get a smoother, uninterupted read of articles that interest you, which also incidentally makes copying and pasting of articles or snippets much easier.  Years ago, Opera was hardly accessible.  Now, i think it beats the standard mainstream browsers any time.  They have, indeed, come a very long way.  Cheers!

On 11/8/2019 2:32 PM, Bobby Vinton wrote:

Well opera still updates and it is chrome based

On 11/8/2019 1:14 AM, Arlene wrote:

What? Opera browser still exists?  I’ve heard of it when I was on the jaws list. Not the list that Debbi Scales ran. She was for beginners and advancing users. I was on the list for more advanced users. There was where I heard about the Opera Browser. Can anybody use it? Or is it for more advanced users where they do computer coding? Sorry for the long message. I thought Opera was a thing of the past.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: zahra
Sent: November 7, 2019 10:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] the opra browser

 

i just tried it one time and it worked.

i dont remember which version i installed.

 

On 11/8/19, Bobby Vinton <vinton.bobby5277@...> wrote:

> Hay I was wondering if the opera browser works with a screen reader such

> as nvda?  just let me know and I will try it

>

 

 

--

By God,

were I given all the seven heavens

with all they contain

in order that

I may disobey God

by depriving an ant

from the husk of a grain of barley,

I would not do it.

imam ali

 

 

 


locked Re: the opera browser

Jaffar Sidek <jaffar.sidek10@...>
 

HI all.  I actually have replaced Chrome with Opera as my default browser and have no cause to regret my action.  It is a fast, efficient browser with a real effective ad blocker that gets rid of ads that litter articles you want to read.  While chrome promotes those ads, Opera blocks them, allowing you to get a smoother, uninterupted read of articles that interest you, which also incidentally makes copying and pasting of articles or snippets much easier.  Years ago, Opera was hardly accessible.  Now, i think it beats the standard mainstream browsers any time.  They have, indeed, come a very long way.  Cheers!

On 11/8/2019 2:32 PM, Bobby Vinton wrote:

Well opera still updates and it is chrome based

On 11/8/2019 1:14 AM, Arlene wrote:

What? Opera browser still exists?  I’ve heard of it when I was on the jaws list. Not the list that Debbi Scales ran. She was for beginners and advancing users. I was on the list for more advanced users. There was where I heard about the Opera Browser. Can anybody use it? Or is it for more advanced users where they do computer coding? Sorry for the long message. I thought Opera was a thing of the past.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: zahra
Sent: November 7, 2019 10:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] the opra browser

 

i just tried it one time and it worked.

i dont remember which version i installed.

 

On 11/8/19, Bobby Vinton <vinton.bobby5277@...> wrote:

> Hay I was wondering if the opera browser works with a screen reader such

> as nvda?  just let me know and I will try it

>

 

 

--

By God,

were I given all the seven heavens

with all they contain

in order that

I may disobey God

by depriving an ant

from the husk of a grain of barley,

I would not do it.

imam ali

 

 

 


Re: Links on websites with submenus and/or links that NVDA can't interact with

Sile
 

Hello, would anybody be willing to have a look at a webpage off-line for me. It’s having similar issues with drop-down boxes, but I don’t think it’s related to JavaScript.

I’ve never seen this particular behavior before, so I just want to understand what’s going on.

Sile

On Nov 7, 2019, at 9:10 PM, Joshua Tubbs <orin8722@gmail.com> wrote:

Hmm. Were you using Chrome?

I'll have to double check to see if JavaScript is on in Chrome.



On 11/6/19, Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote:
I just looked at the site with JAVA script on. I followed one of the links
and it opened another page as a standard link does. I see that the site has
a login place, and you didn't say if you did so. I didn't look enough to
see if features are available if you log in that aren't otherwise, but the
entire home page appears accessible to me. In addition, between each of the
navigation links is a link that says skip navigation links. You really only
need one but since someone put a skip link after every navigation link, that
strongly implies to me that the site was designed to be accessible, even if
this or that accomodation may be overdoing it.

I'm not sure what accounts for your problems or if, given more information,
we can see them. But just going to the site and looking around doesn't show
me any.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

Hi all,

I just visited the following website:

http://canadianxpress.ca/

I notice that when going there, there is a number sign at the end of
the address. There are multiple websites I've found like this, and
each time I've encountered issues.
On this particular site I believe the main links open up drop downs
with additional links underneath the main one. Is there a way, whether
via addons or other, to make this and other sites like this usable,
short of contacting the webmaster who may or may not change the links
to make them clickable? Jaws simply announces the links as mouse
overs, but has the same result as NVDA. I've come across sites where
to hover over content, you can simply activate object navigation and
route the mouse cursor to the link in question and more information
will be present. Not with this one, however...

Any help would be appreciated. Tried switching browsers as well.













Re: Quick default hot key question

Sile
 

PS, Tony, I just checked and actually I’m using NVDA in desktop mode on my laptop, because I always use an external keyboard.

Sile

On Nov 8, 2019, at 3:07 AM, Sile via Groups.Io <somodhrain=googlemail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Ah, that’s where the default hotkeys menu went :-) I’ve been looking for it for days…

Sile
On Nov 7, 2019, at 10:02 PM, Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@gmail.com> wrote:

By default AudioChart assigns NVDA+a shortcut in desktop layout and nvda+control+shift+a in laptop layout.

Is your NVDA running in Laptop layout?

In any case, you can always change default hotkeys in input gestures dialog in preferences menu.

--Tony

On 11/7/2019 8:56 AM, Sile via Groups.Io wrote:
Hello


The NVDA Audio Chart add-on for XL is set, by default, to the hotkey 'tab plus a'. This is also the key to read to end. Is there any way to change the audio chart hot key, or do I have to change the read-to-end hot key?



--Sile






Nvda and products Eset antivirus are already in order

Jarek.Krcmar
 

Hello group Nvda,

Some months ago I wrote, that Eset antivirus doesn't work in Nvda.

I would like to inform you, that it's already in older.

It is necessary have in Eset installed a module HIP, it is a Screen Config

If any from you is an user of product Eset, do visit support of Eset.


--
Jarek


Re: Quick default hot key question

Sile
 

Ah, that’s where the default hotkeys menu went :-) I’ve been looking for it for days…

Sile

On Nov 7, 2019, at 10:02 PM, Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@gmail.com> wrote:

By default AudioChart assigns NVDA+a shortcut in desktop layout and nvda+control+shift+a in laptop layout.

Is your NVDA running in Laptop layout?

In any case, you can always change default hotkeys in input gestures dialog in preferences menu.

--Tony

On 11/7/2019 8:56 AM, Sile via Groups.Io wrote:
Hello


The NVDA Audio Chart add-on for XL is set, by default, to the hotkey 'tab plus a'. This is also the key to read to end. Is there any way to change the audio chart hot key, or do I have to change the read-to-end hot key?



--Sile





Re: Quick default hot key question

Sile
 

Yes, S

On Nov 7, 2019, at 10:02 PM, Tony Malykh <anton.malykh@gmail.com> wrote:

By default AudioChart assigns NVDA+a shortcut in desktop layout and nvda+control+shift+a in laptop layout.

Is your NVDA running in Laptop layout?

In any case, you can always change default hotkeys in input gestures dialog in preferences menu.

--Tony

On 11/7/2019 8:56 AM, Sile via Groups.Io wrote:
Hello


The NVDA Audio Chart add-on for XL is set, by default, to the hotkey 'tab plus a'. This is also the key to read to end. Is there any way to change the audio chart hot key, or do I have to change the read-to-end hot key?



--Sile





Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Luke Davis
 

On Fri, 8 Nov 2019, Quentin Christensen wrote:

I copied part of an image, and NVDA simply reports the time (visually there's a thumbnail of what was copied).  I tried copying a few cells out of an Excel
worksheet and it reads those on those clipboard.  It doesn't seem to remember files - Maybe they just haven't added that yet?
Personally, I doubt they ever will. Keep in mind what happens when you copy and paste files. The file's path is placed on the clipboard, not the file itself. When you paste it, a copy or move operation takes place.

The clipboard doesn't actually know if you did a cut or copy, it just knows that a path arrived, was stored, and later was pasted.

If you did a cut, that source path is no longer valid, so what would it show?
If you did a copy, the source path could still potentially be valid, but if you switched removable drives since then, it might lead to a place that doesn't exist any more.

Much easier to just not show anything for files, since odds are most of the time what is shown will be inaccurate.

I suppose that they could just show the path that was copied and leave it at that, without letting you take any actions on it, but that seems like it would lead to more confusion for users who don't understand.

Luke


Re: how to copy more then one items and to keep them all in the clipboard in NVDA

Moti Azrad
 

Thanks Quentin.

 

Moti

 

 

Moti Azrad 

Musician and Piano-Tuner         

 

motiaz@...

 

azrad_moty@...

 

Israel

 

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Quentin Christensen
Sent: November 8, 2019 06:46
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] how to copy more then one items and to keep them all in the clipboard in NVDA

 

NVDA doesn't have this out of the box, however there is a "Clip Contents Designer" add-on which will give you this functionality:  https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/clipContentsDesigner.en.html

 

As a partly related aside, Windows 10 now has a clipboard history.  Press WINDOWS+V and you select from recently copied items to paste.  So you could select the first item, copy it, select the second item, copy it, and so on, then go to where you want to paste them, and press WINDOWS+V and paste each one by one.

 

Regards

 

Quentin.

 

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 2:37 PM Moty Azrad <motiaz@...> wrote:

Hi all,

 

I need to copy one item and after that to move to another area in the table and to copy another one, sometimes I need to copy six or more items and I need to these all information in the clipboard and after that I paste it to any document.

With Jaws, it’s called: appended so I need the same thing in NVDA.

 

Any help please

 

Moti

 

 

Moti Azrad 

Musician and Piano-Tuner         

 

motiaz@...

 

azrad_moty@...

 

Israel

 

 

 

 


 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

 


Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Luke Davis
 

On Fri, 8 Nov 2019, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Re copy and paste etc, remember it's not just about being able to tell with relative confidence that something has occurred, but also how much effort it
takes to find that out.  I know the add-on seems to work pretty well when I've used it, but maybe my machine is faster than average and my tolerance for
waiting for something to happen is greater.
To elaborate on this:
The issue is not that checking whether something happened is impossible. It's that there is no convenient windows-API method for doing this.
The only real way to do it I know of, is to take a snapshot of the clipboard, and then when a copy/cut operation is supposed to have happened, compare what's there now with what was remembered.
That could probably be done with checksumming, but it is all potentially a very expensive operation from a computational point of view, depending upon what is on the clipboard.
That (sans checksumming) is how Clipspeak does it now.

I don't know how Jaws does it, but that's how we have to do it. That's the real reason I believe they don't want it in core.

For now, the functionality is available in an add-on.  Yes it could be argued to bring it over to core, but then again, that would also take someone's time
Only for now. Once 2019.3 hits, it won't be any more, unless someone takes the time to update the add-on to work with Python 3. That is a non-trivial task. I and maybe some others have considered doing that, but no results yet.

(To any developer who wants to work on it, I have a repo just itching for pull requests, at https://github.com/XLTechie/clipspeak ).

Luke


Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Gene
 

I don't think they will.  When you copy a file to the clipboard, I don't know what information is there, but its unlikely to be information people would be interested in seeing, maybe some sort of command and a file path but I'm just guessing.  If you select twenty files, I don't think people want to see a history that shows the information related to twenty files, perhaps twenty paths.
 
How many NVDA users know that add-ons exist and how to work with them?  Is there any such information?  I suspect that less than half of users use add-ons, even if they know that such things exist.
 
Gene

----- Original message -----
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2019 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

I copied part of an image, and NVDA simply reports the time (visually there's a thumbnail of what was copied).  I tried copying a few cells out of an Excel worksheet and it reads those on those clipboard.  It doesn't seem to remember files - Maybe they just haven't added that yet?

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 5:50 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
But does the clipboard history only show text or does it indicate entries for copying files. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved." 
 
I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying that some how, when this was being considered, the developers believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github (spelling) discussion. 
 
A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder than the first fifteen.  Imagine the annoyance when you find you have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files over again after you select them again, then paste them again.  The same thing could happen with text.
 
You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on, I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader. 
 
My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then that could be worked on. 
 
But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed, is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the function was rejected is incorrect.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve checking other things to determine whether something has been copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and pasting.

Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent, but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error message.  Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a message that the email had been sent.  You are right about teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent, my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"  The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying text.

We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect people to understand what commands they are giving the computer and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office, for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way - and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation, disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save when you try to close Word.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied, to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it.  Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning how to derive information from context and behavior is important.  You won't always have someone explaining everything in every program and every new program.
 
But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get information when saving an already saved document again, this is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of e-mail. 
 
And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the developers persist in believing got started but it has never been true. 
 
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
 
I'm making a point of this because, since this can be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the title bar.

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command keys is on to report "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Image NVDA
        certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Quentin Christensen
 

I copied part of an image, and NVDA simply reports the time (visually there's a thumbnail of what was copied).  I tried copying a few cells out of an Excel worksheet and it reads those on those clipboard.  It doesn't seem to remember files - Maybe they just haven't added that yet?


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 5:50 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
But does the clipboard history only show text or does it indicate entries for copying files. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved." 
 
I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying that some how, when this was being considered, the developers believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github (spelling) discussion. 
 
A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder than the first fifteen.  Imagine the annoyance when you find you have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files over again after you select them again, then paste them again.  The same thing could happen with text.
 
You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on, I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader. 
 
My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then that could be worked on. 
 
But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed, is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the function was rejected is incorrect.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve checking other things to determine whether something has been copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and pasting.

Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent, but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error message.  Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a message that the email had been sent.  You are right about teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent, my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"  The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying text.

We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect people to understand what commands they are giving the computer and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office, for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way - and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation, disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save when you try to close Word.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied, to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it.  Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning how to derive information from context and behavior is important.  You won't always have someone explaining everything in every program and every new program.
 
But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get information when saving an already saved document again, this is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of e-mail. 
 
And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the developers persist in believing got started but it has never been true. 
 
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
 
I'm making a point of this because, since this can be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the title bar.

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command keys is on to report "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Image NVDA
        certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

 

Hello,

Microsoft Office has an option to give sound feedback for certain events. That includes when manually saving a document (I don't know about the automatic save case). In newer versions of Office (I think - Office 365) you just need to open the options for the respective Office program, go to the "Accessibility" category and enable the option about sound feedback. Then, from a combo box, you can choose the sound scheme to use for the sound alerts. In earlier versions of Office the option was in another category and you have to separately download and install the Office sound pack from Microsoft's website.

______
Best wishes,
Kostadin Kolev

На 8.11.2019 г. в 3:32, Quentin Christensen написа:

I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve checking other things to determine whether something has been copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and pasting.

Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent, but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error message.  Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a message that the email had been sent.  You are right about teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent, my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"  The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying text.

We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect people to understand what commands they are giving the computer and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office, for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way - and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation, disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save when you try to close Word.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied, to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it.  Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning how to derive information from context and behavior is important.  You won't always have someone explaining everything in every program and every new program.
 
But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get information when saving an already saved document again, this is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of e-mail. 
 
And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the developers persist in believing got started but it has never been true. 
 
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
 
I'm making a point of this because, since this can be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the title bar.

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command keys is on to report "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
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Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



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Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



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Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


Re: NVDA adding and changing settings

Gene
 

But does the clipboard history only show text or does it indicate entries for copying files. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

I didn't say you said that.  You said and this is a quote, for those with punctuation off, "Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved." 
 
I see no evidence that copy, cut, and paste, can't be definitely determined.  I don't know what JAWS does or System Access, nor do I know how the add-on monitors to determine when text is copied and pasted.  But the reason the developers didn't want to put a copy and paste announcement in NVDA is because they said you can't tell when those actions are done, which is incorrect.  I'm saying that some how, when this was being considered, the developers believed it couldn't be done and that is stated in the Github (spelling) discussion. 
 
A copy and paste announcement is a different case from an e-mail sent announcement.  In the e-mail case, you get an indication from the program whether the message was sent.  When you copy, there is nothing that happens to confirm that you have done so.  Without such confirmation, very inconvenient things may occur.  Suppose you are copying or moving files.  You issue the copy command, move fifteen selected files, then issue the copy command after you have selected twenty more files.  You then paste in a different folder than the first fifteen.  Imagine the annoyance when you find you have copied the first fifteen files over again.  You then have the annoyance of having to delete them, go back, copy the twenty files over again after you select them again, then paste them again.  The same thing could happen with text.
 
You can't assume that even if you are careful and know you have issued the copy command correctly, that it has worked.  I have exeecuted commands in the past that weren't carried out for some reason and I had to execute the command twice.  Before the add-on, I had inconveniences such as I described above now and then.  They could have been avoided if the add-on had been available or if a copy and paste announcement were built into NVDA.  I consider this an important function and it should be built into the screen-reader. 
 
My experience is that the add-on is accurate, but if others have experiences that it isn't as good as it ideally should be, then that could be worked on. 
 
But aside from my experience that the add-on works well, my experience with JAWS, which I used for years before NVDA existed, is that it is accurate.  I'm saying that the premise on which the function was rejected is incorrect.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

I didn't say you couldn't make an educational assumption about when copying and pasting has taken place, and from what I've experienced, the add-on does do an excellent job of this.  What I meant by us not being able to tell, was more that it would involve checking other things to determine whether something has been copied etc, rather than having something exposed from the program or Windows which states definitively "text has been copied" (or how much, or whatever).  The fact that the add-on does such a good job of it, could be an argument to put forward a case for adding it to NVDA core.  My understanding is that this is basically how other screen readers make the same assumptions about copying and pasting.

Re knowing when an email has been sent.  In a way, it is the same thing, because you don't get a message saying it has been sent, but you know it has been sent because the draft email disappears when you give the instruction to send it, and there's no error message.  Theoretically, NVDA could be made to give the user a message that the email had been sent.  You are right about teaching people to use those cues to know that it has been sent, my point was simply that in my experience, if you haven't got them familiar with the idea beforehand, probably the majority of people, if you just instruct them how to write an email and what button to press to send it, will immediately ask "did it send?"  The merits of adding a confirmation to reassure new users, vs only notifying when there is an error could be debated either way, but that's the way it works, and largely, that is the same for copying text.

We could do away with a lot of confirmation messages if we expect people to understand what commands they are giving the computer and the ways they behave.  Or, we could add in a lot more confirmation messages if we want to make computers more novice friendly.  Is the current system perfect?  Probably not.  Office, for instance, has changed to automatically saving documents.  Once you've saved a document once, in Word 2003, if you write some more text, and then press ALT+F4, Word will ask if you want to save the changes.  Word 365 will have already saved your changes and will simply close.  Which way is correct?  You could argue either way - and in fact, in the Office 365 model currenly, you NEVER get a confirmation your document has been saved.  But you can infer it by reading the title bar (for the purpose of the conversation, disregard the bug that currently prevents getting that information) and by the fact that you don't get prompted to save when you try to close Word.


On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 10:48 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
If an e-mail has been sent, the window closes and you are automatically placed where you were before you wrote, replied, to, or forwarded a message.  If a message isn't able to be sent, the program opens an error window which gains focus and you can't miss it.  Therefore, a sent announcement is unnecessary and presents no information that isn't obvious if you instruct the person in what to look for.  Also, learning how to derive information from context and behavior is important.  You won't always have someone explaining everything in every program and every new program.
 
But since you clearly indicate that sighted people get information when saving an already saved document again, this is a case where the screen-reader isn't presenting information that would be useful and that can't conveniently be inferred, as in the case of e-mail. 
 
And the idea that the developers got somehow that it can't be determined when copying and pasting take place is just plain wrong.  it isn't even debateable, it’s a matter of fact.  JAWS knows when, and System Access knows when.  I have specifically seen instances when copying didn't take place and no erroneous report was made.  I don't know how this myth that the developers persist in believing got started but it has never been true. 
 
Also, the NVDA add-on tells me accurately when copying and pasting takes place.  The person who wrote the add-on believes that it doesn't for some reason but I've been using it almost daily since it came out and I've almost never seen it make a mistake.
 
I'm making a point of this because, since this can be accurately determined, it should be incorporated into NVDA and not left to an add-on, which a lot of people will never know exist. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Just chiming in to give the visual perspective:
In Notepad, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, the "Save as" dialog appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously, Notepad saves it, and NVDA does not say anything (unless you have speak command keys on, in which case NVDA reports "control+s").  Notepad does put an asterisk at the start of the filename in the title bar when a document has been edited.  This disappears when the document is saved.  NVDA does read this asterisk when reading the title bar.

In Word 365, when pressing control+s:
- If the document has not been saved before, a "Save this file" window appears and NVDA reports that.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is enabled, nothing happens and NVDA does not report anything (again unless speak command keys is on to report "control+s").  With AutoSave on, the document is saved every time any key is pressed so control+s is not needed.
- If the document has been saved previously and "AutoSave" is not enabled, the visual response is again subtle.  When you open a document, or save it, the title bar notes "Filename - Saved".  Once you change it, the "Saved" disappears.  This gets reinstated when you save it.  There is currently a known issue, I believe with the way Office is exposing the title bar.  See: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/10150

Similar to announcing cut, copied or pasted, reporting when a document is saved is not something we would be inclined to add to NVDA UNLESS we could be sure a document had been saved.  I can see the usefulness of the functionality for some users (it reminds me of how when teaching email, people often want confirmation that the email has been sent, but many email clients don't give that).  For this reason, I would recommend it might be useful functionality for an add-on.  Possibly Damien Garwood, developer of the ClipSpeak add-on, might be interested in adding it.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:14 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I checked, and the settings you are discussing are checked by default.  So people should hear this message in general.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

It should be spoken and if it isn't without changing NVDA settings, the problem should be corrected. 
 
Perhaps this is a problem using NVDA in Windows 10.  The message is spoken in Windows 7. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

Hi


If it is the message he wants to hear even though it is not spoken when in note pad and do the alt key + f4 key and get the message do you want to save which is not spoken.


he can do the following in nvdas settings under simple review cursor make sure it is checked and make sure simple review mode is checked.


If i want to hear the message when it comes up and says cancel save etc and it is not spoken out which does not worry me I can use object navigation to hear it in this case it is the nvda key + 6 on the numeric keypad then use nvda key + 4 tto go back to where the buttons are and save that way.


Some of the material that is not read out can be accessed with object navigation like this example.


If a document is already saved I do not need to hear it has been saved as I know it has been.


Gene nz


On 8/11/2019 7:40 am, Gene wrote:
Window-eyes says that because it is told by the developers, to say that word when that key combination is pressed.  it isn't analyzing an action by the word processor or text editor to know if a document was saved.  It is just saying the word.  That is bad design and Window-eyes probably says other things because the screen-reader is programmed to do so just because a certain key combination is pressed. 
 
Frankly, you are worrying excessively about almost nothing.  As I said, if you issue the save command twice, it is almost 100 percent certain that the document has been saved.  And to emphasize the point, all this time, you were saving documents and relying on Window-eyes to tell you that they were saved when actually, all it was doing was saying the word saved because it was programmed to when you pressed that combination.  But that shows how reliably your documents were being saved. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2019 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA adding and changing settings

FYI: In Window-Eyes when pressing the control-s command it does say “save”. In NVDA the alt-f4 command is helpful. Another thought that occured to me is to go to the file name in the subdirectory and check the date and time last saved, especially if i want to continue editing the document.
 
Listening for His shout!
Grant – A.K.A. Grandpa DOS
 
--
Image NVDA
        certified expert
Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related materials at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net

To find out which library networks in New Zealand have a copy of the NVDA screen reader on them and there library locations please go to http://www.accessibilitycentral.net/nz%20libraries%20with%20nvda.html
To find a NVDA certified expert near you, please visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified individuals from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA expert exam.



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager



--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager


locked Re: the opera browser

Bobby Vinton <vinton.bobby5277@...>
 

Well opera still updates and it is chrome based

On 11/8/2019 1:14 AM, Arlene wrote:

What? Opera browser still exists?  I’ve heard of it when I was on the jaws list. Not the list that Debbi Scales ran. She was for beginners and advancing users. I was on the list for more advanced users. There was where I heard about the Opera Browser. Can anybody use it? Or is it for more advanced users where they do computer coding? Sorry for the long message. I thought Opera was a thing of the past.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: zahra
Sent: November 7, 2019 10:00 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] the opra browser

 

i just tried it one time and it worked.

i dont remember which version i installed.

 

On 11/8/19, Bobby Vinton <vinton.bobby5277@...> wrote:

> Hay I was wondering if the opera browser works with a screen reader such

> as nvda?  just let me know and I will try it

>

 

 

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