|
locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Ron Canazzi
Hi Brian,
Your analysis is probably correct, but I am wondering just why the issue didn't exist in versions of Thunderbird earlier than 60.9. Remember, before that time, the status line was visible, but screen readers: JAWS and NVDA didn't report all dynamic changes. It was there and you could read it with the hotkey for status line. With the reintroduction of the status line, we now have this problem. I wonder if NVDA programers can do something to change this--perhaps coming up with some sort of display silently and invoking reading with hotkey. On 4/9/2020 10:38 AM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
My guess is that the good folks at Thunderbird had gotten complaints that it was impossible to know, for instance, whether all new e-mail had completed downloading when you fired up T-bird at the start of the day, and decided to expose a lot more information presented on the status bar to the screen reader. -- They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
|
|
|
locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Gene
I’m glad you have seen that amount of progress. I know there has been
saignificant improvement but still, when I see things like companies that take
an interest in accessibility not following through, it really gets old and it is
the case that, along with the improvements far too often, it appears to me the
simple principle of ongoing proper follow through by making sure there are blind
people who evaluate new developing versions is not done. I keep seeing,
over time, different programs that were accessible becoming less so over time or
developing new problems. II’m not talking about programs where the whole
architecture changes, I’m talking about examples such as we see in Thunderbird
and such as with programs that release inaccessible versions more than once and
fix them perhaps months or more later.
It is important in such cases, for users of such programs to let the
developers know of the need to actively recruit knowledgeable blind people to
try new developmental releases and beta versions and report problems.
My previous message was written because I see this common sense practice
not being followed and I’m tired of blind people being not consistently dealt
with in ways such as this. While its true that a lot of the responsibility needs
to be on us because we are a small group, chronically misunderstood and about
which most people know little, at the same time, it shouldn’t be almost all our
responsibility. Things are changing and what was considered acceptable
forty years ago isn’t now.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From:
Gene
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too
much Which completely misses the point. Why should blind people be
different from other minorities. Affirmative action has been around since
the seventies. It is expected that when dealing with minorities,
institutions will affirmatively take certain actions. Blind people are a
small group, but it is right and proper that there should be an expectation that
entities will affirmatively do something rather than we always being in a
position to constantly educate and educate and educate.
I’m not saying that blind people shouldn’t educate. I’m saying that
its beyond time for the attitude to change from its all on us to its partly on
you.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too
much On
Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 01:52 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote: Take mee6. The developers basically ,looked at NvDa said, We can't help you" and just ignored every other bug report I submitted. In fact they only give me sigted instructions like 'drag this to that." Yeah, I've seen all of this before.And, again, so? This gives you instant feedback that the developers of this product care not one whit about accessibility. That, in and of itself, tells you to abandon hope and seek an alternative. In this world, all of us have been subjected to something like this, though not necessarily specific to accessibility. You shake the dust from your sandals and move along in the attempt to find a tool that works. Also, you really do have to understand that many sighted people don't understand that drag and drop is not something that blind people do. Very often you can end up educating support reps about keyboard shortcuts and how to find them. There is no logical reason to believe that most of the sighted world does or ever will know nearly what you know about keyboard shortcuts and many other aspects of how blind people use computers. So it is up to you to make the attempt to educate. As a seeing person who has been intimately involved with accessibility for some time now, I am finding that the lack of recognition on the accessibility users side about why things are the way they are, much of it due to pure ignorance on the part of the majority of sighted people, mystifying. Why on earth would you expect your average Joe or Jane sitting at a help desk, who might never have even spoken to an accessibility software user before, to just know this stuff? That's exactly how and why dedicated help lines have come into existence at major players like Microsoft and Google, to name two. It's completely unreasonable to believe that most of the sighted world should know one darned thing about screen readers, or that they even exist. The blind community is very, very small as a proportion of all computer users. Resources get allocated based on that, and I can only imagine what fraction of a percent of all calls to help desks come from screen reader users. That matters, and needs to be taken into consideration. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
|
|
|
|
locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
cecropia64
i think it was Mike who suggested turning off the status bar. i did this and it worked fine. it works for me like it used to before i upgraded.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On 4/9/2020 3:44 PM, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi Group,
|
|
|
|
locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Ron Canazzi
Hi Group,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
OK, you can hide the status bar, but then you won't have it readable until you show it again.
On 4/9/2020 12:46 PM, matthew dyer wrote:
Marry, --
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
|
|
|
locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Ron Canazzi
Hi Group,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Well, I also am seeing the latest version of Thunderbird talking way too much. For about two years, the updates past version 60.8 did not read the status line properly. Now with 68.7, the status line has returned, but it seems that every action that you perform that causes a change to the status line is now vocalized. This is entirely too much verbiage. A clumsy work around is to perform an action and then quickly invoke the read line function with insert + up arrow and then go on to perform a new action. This works best for doing a filtered delete. By this I mean that I have messages filtered into folders and grouped by conversation. When doing a browse and delete in each folder, after I select with standard shift + up/down arrows and want to move on for a mass deletion, rather than waiting for the status line to read out, I do the selection, then press the read line keystroke and then continue the shift + down arrow keystroke to continue to highlight the messages I want to delete. It's clumsy but once you get used to it, it does work. Since this install allows me to stay current with security issues in Thunderbird, I think I'll keep the 68.7 version. I like being current and having the status line read in some form. Maybe they'll tweak the program a little more for accessibility in future updates. This is the time when a JAWS frame type feature would be good. You could create the frame around the status line and make it silent and only readable with the hotkey.
On 4/9/2020 9:57 AM, matthew dyer wrote:
Hi, --
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes. They ask: "How Happy are You?" I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"
|
|
|
|
Re: How can I get the date from a Braille display?
By the way, and not using a braille display, when I wanted to get the date announced when NVDA was running I did hold down NVDA then hit F12 twice in rapid succession.
The original post makes me think that NVDA+F12,NVDA+F12 was being pressed twice in rapid succession. I used NVDA+F12 followed by just F12 in rapid succession, never releasing the NVDA key before both F12s were pressed. I got the Save dialog in word, or the show elements panel in Brave, if I did NVDA+F12, released NVDA and then hit F12 again quickly. But never when I depress NVDA, keep it held, and then hit two F12s in rapid succession before releasing NVDA. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
|
|
|
|
Re: How can I get the date from a Braille display?
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 10:47 AM, Daniel Gartmann wrote:
On my Freedom Scientific Focus40 Blue, I can’t seem to do two presses quickly of NVDA+F12. The second press of F12 just sends an F12 through and I get the Save As dialog.As bizarre as this may sound, I wonder if this might be something related to how FS has implemented this that is linked to JAWS somehow. I was just reading through the Owner's Guide for the Focus 40 Blue and in the section entitled, Focus Keyboard Commands Overview, it states, "Focus commands are consistently based on JAWS and Windows commands. If you are familiar with JAWS and Windows keyboard commands, Focus commands are very easy to learn. If you become familiar with Focus commands, JAWS and Windows keyboard commands are also easy to learn." It makes me think that it may not be passing through what one might think it's passing through to NVDA. You might want to contact FS support about this, as they should be able to give a definitive answer. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
|
|
|
|
Re: How can I get the date from a Braille display?
David Griffith
No he says he is then getting the normal Save as dialogue you get when doing a single press of F12
David Griffith Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: 09 April 2020 19:19 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] How can I get the date from a Braille display?
I don't use a braille display, and You I think said you did this but what happens if you use insert f12, f12, then look at your display. Does the date show then? Sorry if I seem stupid, but I am in terms of braille displays. Lool! Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter Our discord is where you will know when we go live on [twitch.](http://twitch.tv/ke7zum] Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there. For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page YOu will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there. Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here On 9 Apr 2020, at 10:56, Daniel Gartmann wrote:
|
|
|
|
Re: google chrome version 81
Eilana Benish
Hi As far as reading PDF files I am strongly recommend reading with dedicated PDF readers especially with Adobe reader . From my experience I think that Mozilla Firefox is the best browser ever as far as Accessibility and also security best support. Sorry Google love you, but on other apps …
בתאריך יום ה׳, 9 באפר׳ 2020 ב-20:03 מאת Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>:
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:35 PM, mohammad suliman wrote: -- ובכבוד רב | Sincerely, אילנה בניש מורשה נגישות שירות 2200 | Eilana Benish, service Accessibility authorized (2200) 📱 +972-50-7100367 | 📧 benish.ilana@...
|
|
|
|
locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 02:42 PM, Gene wrote:
The developers of Firefox and Thunderbird have intentionally made their programs accessible.There's nothing exceptional about that. Virtually every major player in the software world has cared about accessibility for a while now. Having been in software development from the mid-1980s through late 1990s, I can say definitively that accessibility was a second thought, if that, for the vast majority of software companies then. Even those that did it did a pretty lousy job of it, too. It just wasn't taken seriously. That has changed, and in a big way. Accessibility principles in coding are now taught in many, if not most, computer science degree programs. Accessibility is no longer being grafted on as an afterthought, but baked in. And I can assure you, this is not because anyone makes any money on this, in fact, it costs quite a bit that will never be made back in hard cash. But, what all major companies want, not quite as much as hard cash but still want, is to burnish their images by "doing good" or "doing what's right." Mind you, they're not doing either of those things for those reasons, but because it's good PR, and good PR is worth its weight in platinum. Not ever having been inside during this era, I can't say how accessibility development and testing is actually handled by the various companies, but I'll bet they each have their own methods. But no matter how good the development and testing, there will always be issues that crop up, and I beg those who find them to report them. If a given company has expended great effort on accessibility it only makes sense that they want these reports. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
|
|
|
|
locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Gene
Which completely misses the point. Why should blind people be
different from other minorities. Affirmative action has been around since
the seventies. It is expected that when dealing with minorities,
institutions will affirmatively take certain actions. Blind people are a
small group, but it is right and proper that there should be an expectation that
entities will affirmatively do something rather than we always being in a
position to constantly educate and educate and educate.
I’m not saying that blind people shouldn’t educate. I’m saying that
its beyond time for the attitude to change from its all on us to its partly on
you.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too
much On
Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 01:52 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote: Take mee6. The developers basically ,looked at NvDa said, We can't help you" and just ignored every other bug report I submitted. In fact they only give me sigted instructions like 'drag this to that." Yeah, I've seen all of this before.And, again, so? This gives you instant feedback that the developers of this product care not one whit about accessibility. That, in and of itself, tells you to abandon hope and seek an alternative. In this world, all of us have been subjected to something like this, though not necessarily specific to accessibility. You shake the dust from your sandals and move along in the attempt to find a tool that works. Also, you really do have to understand that many sighted people don't understand that drag and drop is not something that blind people do. Very often you can end up educating support reps about keyboard shortcuts and how to find them. There is no logical reason to believe that most of the sighted world does or ever will know nearly what you know about keyboard shortcuts and many other aspects of how blind people use computers. So it is up to you to make the attempt to educate. As a seeing person who has been intimately involved with accessibility for some time now, I am finding that the lack of recognition on the accessibility users side about why things are the way they are, much of it due to pure ignorance on the part of the majority of sighted people, mystifying. Why on earth would you expect your average Joe or Jane sitting at a help desk, who might never have even spoken to an accessibility software user before, to just know this stuff? That's exactly how and why dedicated help lines have come into existence at major players like Microsoft and Google, to name two. It's completely unreasonable to believe that most of the sighted world should know one darned thing about screen readers, or that they even exist. The blind community is very, very small as a proportion of all computer users. Resources get allocated based on that, and I can only imagine what fraction of a percent of all calls to help desks come from screen reader users. That matters, and needs to be taken into consideration. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
|
|
|
|
Re: another thunderbird issue with focus loss this time
Mary Otten
Alas, disabling that junk settings thing didn't help. Yes, I did restart the program after making the change.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
It is driving me nuts! Mary
On 4/8/2020 9:46 PM, Tyler Spivey wrote:
Try going to Tools, Account Settings, Junk Settings, and unchecking Enable adaptive junk mail controls for this account.
|
|
|
|
locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Gene
The developers of Firefox and Thunderbird have intentionally made their
programs accessible. Part of doing so on an ongoing basis is to take the
affirmative action of recruiting blind people to test new builds of these
programs. Not doing so is not implementing what is expedcted in terms of
making programs properly accessible on an ongoing basis.
If they don’t do this, and if other developers don’t do this who have
expressed an interest or willingness to make their programs accessible, such as
the developers of Malware Bytes, blind people should contact them and try to get
them to do this.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Hudson
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too
much Brian
Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote: > My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response. This is likely because too many screen reader users have seen the, sorry but I can't duplicate this. Next! Message in response. In addition, there are some larger issues. Much of the accessibility stack is integrated into the frameworks needed to build the applications; coders of the actual applications built within the framework itself rarely go out of their way to make their appications accessible. That their apps built with the framework are accessible is a happy coincidence. In other words the fact that Firefox and Thunderbird are largely accessible with screen readers is not necessarily due to someone at Mozilla going, hmm, lets open up NVDA/Jaws/whatever and see how this new feature works--although organizations like Mozilla <em>do</em> in fact have some a11y testers. I don't know how many programmers are actually screen reader users there, however. But anyway the accessibility support is there because the coding frameworks they use to construct the applications have basic accessibility built in to them. witness such browsers as Pale Moon, which have this infrastructure removed and which are almost completely unusable with screen readers. Speaking in general about bug reporting. When you report an issue about an application not working with your screen reader, it is likely you're going to get a, wow, I didn't know about screen readers, response. Because the developers did not know their applications could be used at all by us. Then, you'll either get responses that fall into three categories: 1. Sorry, but I don't know anything about screen readers, so I don't know what to do to fix it. Thank you for your support. 2. Well, let's see if we can make it work. What do I need to do to make this thing work with your ... screen reader? 3. Crickets. In category one, you're pretty much out of luck. In category two, unless you know about programming there's not much you can do either. And of course in ccategory three, again, out of luck. This is a basic summary of why a lot of screen reader users don't report bugs. Yes, doing so may be helpful in a lot of cases, ut in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.
|
|
|
|
locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Gene
You would expect interested blind users to receive alpha and beta releases
and send comments. And if there aren’t, Mozilla should recruit
testers. It is just plain bad procedure not to have releases evaluated by
such users as a matter of policy and that is why so many programs such as
Malware Bytes, are accessible in one version, have serious accessibility
problems in the next, and then are finally fixed in a later release.
Gene
----- Original Message [-----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2020 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Thunderbird talking way too
much On
Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 12:42 PM, Gene wrote: My question is why this wasn’t caught by reports from blind people before the release version.Gene, do you honestly think that there were many, if any, based on what has been seen here and on other screen reader and associated technology groups? My point, which seems to have eluded you, is that I constantly see complaints about issues, but when I (or you, or anyone else) bring up the fact that you must report them if you want to have any hope of their being resolved there is generally nothing but the proverbial crickets in response. I have no reason to believe, based on what I have observed on multiple blind technology related groups, that most (and I do mean most, the vast majority most) screen reader users have ever filed a trouble ticket/bug report. And until or unless they do they should not expect prompt attention to issues that may not even have been recognized. Each user demographic is and should be responsible for advocating for themselves by reporting the issues they encounter to those who can fix them. No one else will, or should. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
|
|
|
|
Re: How can I get the date from a Braille display?
I don't use a braille display, and You I think said you did this but what happens if you use insert f12, f12, then look at your display. Does the date show then? Sorry if I seem stupid, but I am in terms of braille displays. Lool! Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter Our discord is where you will know when we go live on [twitch.](http://twitch.tv/ke7zum] Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there. For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page YOu will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there. Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here
On 9 Apr 2020, at 10:56, Daniel Gartmann wrote:
|
|
|
|
locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 01:52 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Take mee6. The developers basically ,looked at NvDa said, We can't help you" and just ignored every other bug report I submitted. In fact they only give me sigted instructions like 'drag this to that." Yeah, I've seen all of this before.And, again, so? This gives you instant feedback that the developers of this product care not one whit about accessibility. That, in and of itself, tells you to abandon hope and seek an alternative. In this world, all of us have been subjected to something like this, though not necessarily specific to accessibility. You shake the dust from your sandals and move along in the attempt to find a tool that works. Also, you really do have to understand that many sighted people don't understand that drag and drop is not something that blind people do. Very often you can end up educating support reps about keyboard shortcuts and how to find them. There is no logical reason to believe that most of the sighted world does or ever will know nearly what you know about keyboard shortcuts and many other aspects of how blind people use computers. So it is up to you to make the attempt to educate. As a seeing person who has been intimately involved with accessibility for some time now, I am finding that the lack of recognition on the accessibility users side about why things are the way they are, much of it due to pure ignorance on the part of the majority of sighted people, mystifying. Why on earth would you expect your average Joe or Jane sitting at a help desk, who might never have even spoken to an accessibility software user before, to just know this stuff? That's exactly how and why dedicated help lines have come into existence at major players like Microsoft and Google, to name two. It's completely unreasonable to believe that most of the sighted world should know one darned thing about screen readers, or that they even exist. The blind community is very, very small as a proportion of all computer users. Resources get allocated based on that, and I can only imagine what fraction of a percent of all calls to help desks come from screen reader users. That matters, and needs to be taken into consideration. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
|
|
|
|
locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Rob Hudson
Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
And this differs from those made by most of us, for most bugs, precisely how?It doesn't. My message was a summary of reasons why screen reader users often don't bother reporting. Instead of you snarking at them.
|
|
|
|
locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 01:34 PM, Rob Hudson wrote:
Yes, doing so [making bug reports] may be helpful in a lot of cases, but in most of them, it can be a futile exercise.And this differs from those made by most of us, for most bugs, precisely how? [And I'm serious.] If you don't make 'em, you have zero, zip, nada right to complain that "no one pays attention to accessibility issues." You can't fix what you don't know about, and there will be plenty of times where competing priorities mean your particular issue is near the bottom of the heap. But if you don't report it it's not in the heap at all. It really is that simple. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 Power is being told you're not loved and not being destroyed by it. ~ Madonna
|
|
|
|
Re: How can I get the date from a Braille display?
Daniel Gartmann
Yes. This would work. But I want the same, convenient way of reading the date without leaving the application I am working in, but from my Braille keyboard.
If I use Windows+b, I am taken out of the application and have to get back to it using Alt+tab.
Thanks for the input.
Daniel
Fra: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
På vegne af David Griffith
I cannot completely vouch for this working with a braille display as I am only just getting to grips with this myself but using a qwerty keyboards windows B and arrowing until focus is on the clock will announce not just the time but the date with speech in NVDA. I hope that you get the same result with a braille display. David Griffith
From:
nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Daniel Gartmann
Hi all,
On a laptop keyboard, I am able to get the date by pressing NVDA F12 twice quickly.
On my Freedom Scientific Focus40 Blue, I can’t seem to do two presses quickly of NVDA+F12. The second press of F12 just sends an F12 through and I get the Save As dialog.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
Daniel
|
|
|
|
locked
Re: Thunderbird talking way too much
Yep. Take mee6. The developers basically ,looked at NvDa said, We can't help you" and just ignored every other bug report I submitted. In fact they only give me sigted instructions like 'drag this to that." Yeah, I've seen all of this before. Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter Our discord is where you will know when we go live on [twitch.](http://twitch.tv/ke7zum] Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there. For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page YOu will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there. Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here
On 9 Apr 2020, at 10:34, Rob Hudson wrote:
|
|
|
