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Re: Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It?
Gene
Here is another correction:
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I said that in the Notepad object where you see the menus, you can open them by moving down. That isn't correct. You will see other things if you move down but to open a menu, move the mouse to the menu name then left click. Then use the move down command to move in to the opened menu. Evidently, the opened menu is another objecgt, available below the object you are in once you open the menu. I work with objects a reasonable amount but I don't do this sort of thing generally, the means to do so being available in the program interface. I caught the mistake when I tried to do what I described now. I'm sorry about the error. I thought I remembered it correctly and only thought of making sure after I sent the description. Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 11:50 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It? The discussion with corrections. I see I made this or that error in mhy first description so I'm sending it again making corrections. Use the corrected version below my signature. Gene There are places where it works well and where it doesn't. Also, very different methods workk depending on what you are navigating. On a web page, for example, if you want to move through text, that text is all going to be one object, as far as I can tell. So just numpad 7 or nine, move back or forward by line works to do this. Numpad 8 is read current line. 4 and 6 is move by word. 5 is read current word. 1 and 3 is move by caraacter. 2 is read current carachter. But what about moving from object to object? Use numpad insert 4 to move left by object and numpad insert 6 to move right by object. You may not be able to read much of anything using the object reading keys I gave first in the object you move to but that's how you read what is in the object. . Those keys are for reading what is in that specific object once you have moved to it. Is there an object in that object where you can read more? To find out, use numpad insert 2 while in that object, and if you move into one, use the read in object keys. Perhaps there is an object above the one you are in where you can see more relevant materiall. To move up, use numpad insert numpad 8. Don't forget that if you have moved down into another object, you need to issue the command twice, once to move up to the object you were in, then again to move to the next higher object. You can experiment by trying to move from one object to another object, then reading what, if anything is in it. You will get a feel for this form of movement by moving. You can't really explain it well in terms of application except more or less as I have. Which is why I don't like explanations that do a lot of explaining of structures at first. Some explanation is useful such as moving into an object within an object or moving to an object above the one you are in. The one below the one you are in is more specific, the one above is more general. But aside from such explanations, the real way to learn and get a feel for what you are doing is to move in the interface. More detailed explanations may be of interest after the person gets a feel for moving. An example of learning by doing is that when you are in a program, when you move up, you may move from the main window to an obbject before you actually get into the main window. In Notepad, for example, move up once. You are now in an object that says Notepad window and you can see the menu titles when you use the reading commands I gave initially. You can open a menu by moving to a menu, then moving down to a lower object. If you have moved into this window, moving up again will take you to the desktop window. If you want to move back down to the Notepad main window, the easiest way is to alt tab out of it then alt tab back. If you are using the default setting that the object navigator follows where you are, it is now back in the main window of the program. In Notepad, when you are in the main window, if a document is opened, it is all one object. You can read it all using the reading keys I gave at the beginning of this discussion. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Brian Vogel Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 11:07 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It? Hello All, This is a navigation method that I really have yet to wrap my head around. My intent with this topic is not to trigger a discussion of the abstract concepts of object navigation, though they're certainly not unwelcome, but to elicit a collection of specific programs/dialogs/etc. where you personally use object navigation to get around in it and how it travels when you do. I have not had a lot of luck yet when just playing with object navigation at random, and figure I (and perhaps many others) might "get the hang of it" much better if we were trying it out in a context either that we're familiar with but haven't used it, or in a context someone else has described so that our experimentation has more meaning from the outset. If you feel so inclined, please share. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde
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Re: Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It?
Gene
The discussion with corrections. I see I made this or that error in mhy first description so I'm sending it again making corrections. Use the corrected version below my signature.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Gene There are places where it works well and where it doesn't. Also, very different methods workk depending on what you are navigating. On a web page, for example, if you want to move through text, that text is all going to be one object, as far as I can tell. So just numpad 7 or nine, move back or forward by line works to do this. Numpad 8 is read current line. 4 and 6 is move by word. 5 is read current word. 1 and 3 is move by caraacter. 2 is read current carachter. But what about moving from object to object? Use numpad insert 4 to move left by object and numpad insert 6 to move right by object. You may not be able to read much of anything using the object reading keys I gave first in the object you move to but that's how you read what is in the object. . Those keys are for reading what is in that specific object once you have moved to it. Is there an object in that object where you can read more? To find out, use numpad insert 2 while in that object, and if you move into one, use the read in object keys. Perhaps there is an object above the one you are in where you can see more relevant materiall. To move up, use numpad insert numpad 8. Don't forget that if you have moved down into another object, you need to issue the command twice, once to move up to the object you were in, then again to move to the next higher object. You can experiment by trying to move from one object to another object, then reading what, if anything is in it. You will get a feel for this form of movement by moving. You can't really explain it well in terms of application except more or less as I have. Which is why I don't like explanations that do a lot of explaining of structures at first. Some explanation is useful such as moving into an object within an object or moving to an object above the one you are in. The one below the one you are in is more specific, the one above is more general. But aside from such explanations, the real way to learn and get a feel for what you are doing is to move in the interface. More detailed explanations may be of interest after the person gets a feel for moving. An example of learning by doing is that when you are in a program, when you move up, you may move from the main window to an obbject before you actually get into the main window. In Notepad, for example, move up once. You are now in an object that says Notepad window and you can see the menu titles when you use the reading commands I gave initially. You can open a menu by moving to a menu, then moving down to a lower object. If you have moved into this window, moving up again will take you to the desktop window. If you want to move back down to the Notepad main window, the easiest way is to alt tab out of it then alt tab back. If you are using the default setting that the object navigator follows where you are, it is now back in the main window of the program. In Notepad, when you are in the main window, if a document is opened, it is all one object. You can read it all using the reading keys I gave at the beginning of this discussion. Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 11:07 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It? Hello All, This is a navigation method that I really have yet to wrap my head around. My intent with this topic is not to trigger a discussion of the abstract concepts of object navigation, though they're certainly not unwelcome, but to elicit a collection of specific programs/dialogs/etc. where you personally use object navigation to get around in it and how it travels when you do. I have not had a lot of luck yet when just playing with object navigation at random, and figure I (and perhaps many others) might "get the hang of it" much better if we were trying it out in a context either that we're familiar with but haven't used it, or in a context someone else has described so that our experimentation has more meaning from the outset. If you feel so inclined, please share. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde
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Re: Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It?
Gene
There are places where it works well and where it doesn't. Also, very different methods workk depending on what you are navigating. On a web page, for example, if you want to move through text, that text is all going to be one object, as far as I can tell. So just numpad 7 or nine, move back or forward by line works to do this. Numpad 8 is read current line.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
4 and 6 is move by word. 5 is read current word. 1 and 3 is move by caraacter. 2 is read current carachter. But what about moving from object to object? Use numpad insert 4 to move left by object and numpad 6 to move right by object. You may not be able to read much of anything using the object movement keys I gave first in the object you move to but that's how you read what is in the object. . Those keys are for reading what is in that specific object once you have moved to it. Is there an object in that object where you can read more? To find out, use numpad insert 2 while in that object, and if you move into one, use the move in object keys. Perhaps there is an object above the one you are in where you can see more relevant materiall. To move up, use numpad insert numpad 8. Don't forget that if you have moved down into another object, you need to issue the command twice, once to move up to the object you were in, then again to move to the next higher object. You can experiment by trying to move from one object to another object, then reading what, if anything is in it. You will get a feel for this form of movement by moving. You can't really explain it well in terms of application except more or less as I have. Which is why I don't like explanations that do a lot of explaining of structures at first. Some explanation is useful such as moving into an object within an object or moving to an object above the one you are in. The one below the one you are in is more specific, the one above is more general. But aside from such explanations, the real way to learn and get a feel for what you are doing is to move in the interface. More detailed explanations may be of interest after the person gets a feel for moving. An example of learning by doing is that when you are in a program, when you move up, you may move from the main window to an obbject before you actually get into the main window. In Notepad, for example, move up once. You are now in an object that says Notepad window and you can see the menu titles when you use the reading commands I gave initially. You can open a menu by moving to a menu, then moving down to a lower object. If you have moved into this window, moving up again will take you to the desktop window. If you want to move back down to the Notepad main window, the easiest way is to alt tab out of it then alt tab back. If you are using the default setting that the object navigator follows where you are, it is now back in the main window of the program. In Notepad, when you are in the main window, if a document is opened, it is all one object. You can read it all using the reading keys I gave at the beginning of this discussion. Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 11:07 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It? Hello All, This is a navigation method that I really have yet to wrap my head around. My intent with this topic is not to trigger a discussion of the abstract concepts of object navigation, though they're certainly not unwelcome, but to elicit a collection of specific programs/dialogs/etc. where you personally use object navigation to get around in it and how it travels when you do. I have not had a lot of luck yet when just playing with object navigation at random, and figure I (and perhaps many others) might "get the hang of it" much better if we were trying it out in a context either that we're familiar with but haven't used it, or in a context someone else has described so that our experimentation has more meaning from the outset. If you feel so inclined, please share. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde
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Re: Nvda and Thunderbird
I'm hearing the same things. I'm using Thunderbird 8.1.0. You could see if turning off the status bar under toolbars might help you.
This was supposed to be addressed. However, it seems to be an imperfect fix on my end.
On 8/6/2020 12:11 PM, Jarek.Krcmar
wrote:
Hello everyone,
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Re: Speech crackling/breaking up in latest NVDA
Sean
Hey hey, I'm a software developer too.
On 06/08/2020 19:39, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 12:31 PM, Sean wrote: --
Sean👨🦯 I’m programmer. I coding often Python, sometimes Go and rarely C++.
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Re: Speech crackling/breaking up in latest NVDA
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 12:31 PM, Sean wrote:
Unfortunately, the old stability disappeared with the move to Python3- 'Twas ever thus, and ever shall be. When tectonic shifts occur, there are virtually always "teething pains," and those pains do get fixed, but some take longer to get there than others. In the world of computing, you cannot hang on to old technology for very long and continue to have something that's really functional. Particularly when major updates to a programming language are involved and really cannot be avoided. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde
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Re: Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It?
I use it in windows, fsTramp, discord at times, some websites to read bits of info that don't want to read, a pilot's life, sim toolkit pro, etc. Prepared (prepar3d) all the time. I have to as that interface is 100 percent inaccessible with out it, VPilot at times, etc. -- Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there. For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there. Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here
On 6 Aug 2020, at 9:11, Joseph Lee wrote:
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Re: Speech crackling/breaking up in latest NVDA
Hi, Part of these have to do with speech refactor. Python 3.7 did contribute somewhat, but we’re basically talking about multiple changes at once. At the moment NV Access folks are working hard on improving performance and fixing outstanding Office usability bugs. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sean
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 9:31 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Speech crackling/breaking up in latest NVDA
Unfortunately, the old stability disappeared with the move to Python3. I have an Issue about this. But the NVDA team said this would be a difficult / complex process. 1. https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/11061 On 06/08/2020 07:49, Sharni-Lee Ward wrote:
-- Sean👨🦯 I’m programmer. I coding often Python, sometimes Go and rarely C++.
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Re: Speech crackling/breaking up in latest NVDA
Sean
Unfortunately, the old stability disappeared with the move to Python3. I have an Issue about this. But the NVDA team said this would be
a difficult / complex process. 1. https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/11061
On 06/08/2020 07:49, Sharni-Lee Ward
wrote:
So I just finally decided to brave the Python 3 hurdle, and updated from 2019.2.1 to 2020.2. I've updated the addons I could and wanted to keep, and they're both working fine. --
Sean👨🦯 I’m programmer. I coding often Python, sometimes Go and rarely C++.
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Re: Nvda and Thunderbird
Rosemarie Chavarria
I wonder if your status bar could be checked. If it is, uncheck it. As far as sending messages, there's a message asking if you're sure you want to send the message. Check the box that says "don't show me this dialog again".
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Hope this helps.
On 8/6/2020 9:11 AM, Jarek.Krcmar wrote:
Hello everyone,
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Re: Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It?
Jesse Farquharson
Hello Brian, I think I will skip over describing how object nav is actually used, as I'm not the best at making that part make sense. However, as an example I find it very helpful specifically in the following two programs. The Windows settings program. Let's say you go to update and security, and then Windows Update. From there, you could use NVDA+B to hear if there is any update available for your machine, but depending on your screenreader's speed that could take a while. Alternatively, you could use object nav to navigate that area instead. Coincidentally, I don't think you can actually get to the check for updates button with just the tab key anyway. This also lets you see more useful info in an easier to understand format, while you don't have countless other things being thrown in your face as well. Another app as I indicated, which it is useful in... as much as I hate to admit it, is the HP Support Assistant program. Object Nav has been a necessity for use in that program. Otherwise, you miss a lot of information. Another area I thought of just now is if you're transfering files from one place to another via cut/copy and paste. You can use object nav to monitor the progress of the transfer rather than using NVDA+B incessantly. Hope this helps.
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Re: Speech crackling/breaking up in latest NVDA
Also be certain that the device drivers for your sound device(s) are completely up to date. I see more complaints coming across the general purpose Windows 10 technical support groups about pops, cracks, and other audio irregularities that I ever have with any prior version of Windows. It can almost always be traced back to the drivers, whether that's because the ones installed are old and from the OEM (whether of your computer or sound card), or are newer but Microsoft issued generic ones where the latest OEM drivers are really needed.
-- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde
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Nvda and Thunderbird
Jarek.Krcmar
Hello everyone,
In Thunderbird, Nvda tells me: Moved a message from the Inbox, Copying a message to the Drafts folder, and tells me something about the account. He also wants to say something when sending the message. Can it be turned off somewhere? Regards -- Jarek
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Re: Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It?
Hi, One context where I use object navigation is Windows 10 Settings (Windows+I) where you must use object navigation to read certain information. Cheers, Joseph
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 9:07 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: [nvda] Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It?
Hello All, Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde
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Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It?
Hello All,
This is a navigation method that I really have yet to wrap my head around. My intent with this topic is not to trigger a discussion of the abstract concepts of object navigation, though they're certainly not unwelcome, but to elicit a collection of specific programs/dialogs/etc. where you personally use object navigation to get around in it and how it travels when you do. I have not had a lot of luck yet when just playing with object navigation at random, and figure I (and perhaps many others) might "get the hang of it" much better if we were trying it out in a context either that we're familiar with but haven't used it, or in a context someone else has described so that our experimentation has more meaning from the outset. If you feel so inclined, please share. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote:
People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter.I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a human reader to say something about the fact that there is a figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading, unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only read the main text. I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling many, many times with multiple screen readers. I hope that someday there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content. Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links and the like at the outset, but the main page content first. But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea, really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the presence of something. It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks" of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you explicitly don't want while retaining the others. And do I ever know what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through, but in any really complex system where a high level of customization is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde
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Re: Issue With Windows Security And Monitoring Virus Scan Progress
Have you considered using object navigation instead of screen review? This is actually what I do and it works beautifully. Simply in laptop mode (I don't use desktop mode ever) do an nvda shift left and right to move between objects, and nvda down and up to interact and not interact with each object. You do not in my experience need to switch modes. -- Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our website. Check out my adventures with a shadow machine. to subscribe to the feed click here and you can also follow us on twitter Our discord is where you will know when we go live on twitch. Feel free to give the channel a follow and see what is up there. For stream archives, products you can buy and more visit my main lbry page and my tffp lbry page You will also be able to buy some of my products and eBooks there. Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go here
On 6 Aug 2020, at 4:37, Ron Canazzi wrote:
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Re: Idea for an Addon
Hi
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Acording to what I understand, you could try this add-on: https://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/placeMarkers.en.html Cuong
On 8/6/2020 10:19 AM, Vaibhav Bhandari wrote:
Hi all,
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Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
Gene
I really hate unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time and tells me nothing of any value.
I've recently been using the beta version of NVDA. I havedn't gotten the production version since I've been using it so little. But one thing that caught my attention is the announcement of figure and out of figure on web pages. What possible value is there to this? I don't care if something is a figure in structure, whatever that is, evidently some sort of visual formatting. Every time I hear these words, it wastes a little bit of time and distractingly clutters the text. and I see no way to turhn this off in the document formatting options. I turn off the other nonsense such as bloc quote announcement. I turn off almost everything. If new formatting information is added, there should be a way to turn it off. And why are some of these announcements on by default? People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter. How many users of NVDA ever learn enough to know that they can turn all these announcements off? Gene
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Re: Idea for an Addon
Daniel Damacena
I am not a developer. Actually, I am a basic user, so that I can't tell you whether it is possible. What I can recommend you to do is to use one of the mentioned softwares. Bookworm is super light, accessible and free. You can download it from here: All the best! Em qui., 6 de ago. de 2020 às 07:37, Vaibhav Bhandari <vaibhavbhandari2017@...> escreveu:
So would it be possible for NVDA to have this feature too? --
Daniel Damacena
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