Re: A possible bug
Greg Williams
It is an issue with the HTML. For whatever reason, they coded the links under the opinion section differently than the rest of the links. They used accessibility badly which made it worse than if they had done nothing. In the opinion section, the put an aria-label on the <a> tag for the link; this tells assistive technology to ignore any other text in the link. The h2 tag is wrapped inside the <a> tag which means that it also gets ignored by the assitive technology.
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I imagine that the reason the old version of NVDA detected the headings is that it is old enough that it did not handle aria-labels and so just ignored them and picked up the nested content including the h2. I will stop here and refrain from giving my opinion on the coding practices in the webpage. Greg
On 8/6/2020 9:46 PM, Gene wrote:
I haven't asked The Times. I thought it was a problem with NVDA since mhy old version recognizes them as headings. I haven't used JAWS to any extent for years but it might be useful for someone using a current JAWS to see if these links are seen as headings.
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hims Qbraille XL list
Afik Souffir
Hello all
I've created a Qbraille XL list for your questions and suggestions.
Feel free to join and distribute it out.
The subscription address is q-braille-xl+subscribe@groups.io
Cordialement,
Afik Souffir
Portable: 0505782208 Addresse email
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
CARLOS-ESTEBAN <carlosestebanpianista@...>
Hello. Well, a possible option is use the reader mode of the browsers. In Firefox and new Microsoft Edge press f9. In Chrome, go to the page chrome://flags. In the edit box search, write "reader mode" and press enter. After, press tab and enabled this feature. Restart Chrome and after you can press f6, and tab two times for the button enable reader mode and press enter. An other solution is use the add-on Virtual Revieu, but I dont know if this addon work in web pages. Regards.
El 7/8/2020 a las 9:46, Felix G.
escribió:
Hi! I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed. Best, Felix Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>:On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM, Gene wrote: People would never put up with a human reader announcing all this clutter. I'd say that's absolutely true, but they'd probably also expect a human reader to say something about the fact that there is a figure/image present and what it illustrates as a part of the reading, unless the person their reading for has explicitly requested they only read the main text. I actually feel your pain, and have had exactly that same feeling many, many times with multiple screen readers. I hope that someday there arrives AI sophisticated enough to screen read the way "your average sighted person" would likely take in looking at content. Heaven knows we virtually never look at scads of the navigation links and the like at the outset, but the main page content first. But at this point in time, since a screen reader itself has no idea, really, of what it is you (any you) are looking for on a given page it offers "way too much" rather than allowing you to possibly miss the presence of something. It would be nice if all of these sorts of things were arranged in "chunks" of announcements that fit a certain class, and that you could have the option of turning off the entire class with one checkbox, or going through the individual things announced and unchecking the ones you explicitly don't want while retaining the others. And do I ever know what a PITA that would be to code, and for the user to slog through, but in any really complex system where a high level of customization is wanted or needed, this is how its obtained. -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde --
Carlos Esteban Martínez Macías. Músico (pianista) y también ayuda a usuarios ciegos con el uso de lectores de pantalla y tecnología. Experto certificado en el lector de pantalla NVDA.
Musicien (pianist) and also help to the blind people in the use of screen readers and technology. Certified expert in the screen reader NVDA.
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
Gene
I don't know who is interested in the topic of what is announced during web page navigation but I'm going to start a topic on what is helpful and useful and what is just clutter on the chat list so those interested may want to join. The chat list is a low traffic list.
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Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Lee Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 10:21 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time Hi, It's a combination of user expectations, what document writers wrote, and specifications. In case of "figure/out of figure", it's more towards ARIA specs, how web authors wrote their sites 9including which framework is in use), and how NVDA got such an information. Cheers, Joseph -----Original Message----- From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 8:19 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time I should clarify, based on what Brian said, that I don't object to the text being read in this instance or in general. I object to figure and out of figure being announced . Just as I object to announcement of bloc quotes being on. Its not the text being read I object to but people in general don't benefit from hearing such information. It seems to me that the designers should consider what is useful infrmation in terms of navigating and in terms of what people generally use when determining what should be announced by default. I don't know how they determine what is announced. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Felix G. Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 9:46 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time Hi! I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed. Best, Felix Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>:
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
Hi,
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It's a combination of user expectations, what document writers wrote, and specifications. In case of "figure/out of figure", it's more towards ARIA specs, how web authors wrote their sites 9including which framework is in use), and how NVDA got such an information. Cheers, Joseph
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 8:19 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time I should clarify, based on what Brian said, that I don't object to the text being read in this instance or in general. I object to figure and out of figure being announced . Just as I object to announcement of bloc quotes being on. Its not the text being read I object to but people in general don't benefit from hearing such information. It seems to me that the designers should consider what is useful infrmation in terms of navigating and in terms of what people generally use when determining what should be announced by default. I don't know how they determine what is announced. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Felix G. Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 9:46 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time Hi! I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed. Best, Felix Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>:
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
Gene
I should clarify, based on what Brian said, that I don't object to the text being read in this instance or in general. I object to figure and out of figure being announced . Just as I object to announcement of bloc quotes being on. Its not the text being read I object to but people in general don't benefit from hearing such information. It seems to me that the designers should consider what is useful infrmation in terms of navigating and in terms of what people generally use when determining what should be announced by default. I don't know how they determine what is announced.
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Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Felix G. Sent: Friday, August 07, 2020 9:46 AM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time Hi! I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed. Best, Felix Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>:
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:46 AM, Felix G. wrote:
but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed.- Because, at least to some extent, that's what happens when you translate one sense to another. There is no way to make a great deal of what "makes perfect sense" in the sensory idiom for which it was designed to have that perfect sense in another. All accessibility is a workaround. Not that I don't understand what you're saying, as I've said it, too, but it is not something you can ever entirely get away from. And you also say, "In the sighted world nobody would get away with it." And to a large extent, that's true, but that's not because it's "the sighted world" but because the things designed are being primarily designed with the sense of sight in mind. Given that the vast majority of the world can see, and that the medium itself is meant to be consumed via sight, that's what makes the most sense, wouldn't you say? Expecting websites and print media to be primarily designed with the blind in mind would be akin to expecting music to be composed primarily with the deaf in mind. [And that's not to excuse plain sloppiness and inaccessibility, either.] -- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde
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Re: Unnecessary verbiage that wastes my time
Felix G.
Hi!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I've been reading along and I know this feeling. I often refer to it as the user experience that nobody designed. On the one hand there's a screen reader developer, on the other there's an app developer or web designer. They don't know each other, and yet their decisions converge on our experience of their products. In the sighted world nobody would get away with it, but we get translations of translations, almost never what someone consciously designed. Best, Felix Am Do., 6. Aug. 2020 um 17:58 Uhr schrieb Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com>:
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Nvda and Thunderbird
Jarek.Krcmar
Hello everyone,
I already have a problem with Thunderbird solved. 1. In Thunderbird it is necessary to uncheck the status bar, 2. in Nvda Presentation of objects it is necessary to uncheck context help and notifications. Regards -- Jarek
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Re: Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It?
Chris Mullins
Hi Brian I understand you are using Object navigation in this case to gain knowledge of how to use it but I thought I would make you aware of the Virtual Review add-on. With Virtual Review installed, pressing NVDA+Ctrl+w when the About window is in focus, will open a temporary textual window containing the information from the About window you can’t access in situe using the keyboard. You can arrow around the virtual review window to read the info then press escape to dismiss it and return focus back to the About window itself.
Cheers Chris
from the In
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: 06 August 2020 23:41 To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] Object Navigation - Where and How Do You Use It?
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 06:35 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
- Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363 A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally. ~ Oscar Wilde
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Re: Speech crackling/breaking up in latest NVDA
Sharni-Lee Ward
Oops, sorry, thought I was responding to someon in private.
For context, I checked Asus Live Update, and was able to get the
information that there were no new updates via the NVDA+b command.
The interface was otherwise inaccessible, even with review
commands.
On 7/08/2020 2:09 pm, Sharni-Lee Ward
wrote:
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Re: Speech crackling/breaking up in latest NVDA
Sharni-Lee Ward
I told you, the interface is inaccessible. I cannot press any
buttons to do anything with. I was lucky to get the information I
did.
On 7/08/2020 1:56 pm, Shaun Everiss
wrote:
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Re: Speech crackling/breaking up in latest NVDA
Another thing, on the asus page I linked to after chosing the uar model, there is a bios update and utilities to do this, this is recent and will effect all hardware, it may or may not fix issues with the chips, there are chipset software updates to.
On 7/08/2020 10:43 am, Sharni-Lee Ward
wrote:
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Re: Speech crackling/breaking up in latest NVDA
This is the driver page for your system. https://www.asus.com/Laptops/ASUS-Laptop-X507UA/HelpDesk_Download/ This is the latest universal audio. If you do have the latest drivers you may try the following. 1. This is the latest generic universal by pal1000 on github which is mirrored by freecodecs. These are built from microsoft sources. These may or may not work as the case may bee. You will need to remove the older drivers and switch to a ms driver before you try to even install these and if you need any enhancements or extras things may not work, these are really basic. The other one is. These were the last package before alanfox2000 was shut down.
These are no longer the latest drivers and will have some issues but they do have a modified installer and will be later than your drivers. Finally, you could simply uninstall the realtech drivers and sound drivers completely and use microsoft drivers than use the drivers from windowsupdate. These may have issues and may be utter crap but they may work.
On 7/08/2020 10:43 am, Sharni-Lee Ward
wrote:
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Re: Speech crackling/breaking up in latest NVDA
Well you could always check and open live update and make sure nothing is in the cue.
On 7/08/2020 11:12 am, Sharni-Lee Ward
wrote:
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Re: A possible bug
Sam Taylor
Correct, they are not seen as headings.
On 7/08/2020 11:58 am, Gene wrote:
Are you saying they aren't seen as headings? I see them as links but not as headings, unlike every other article on the page.
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Re: A possible bug
Gene
Are you saying they aren't seen as headings? I see them as links but not as headings, unlike every other article on the page.
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Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Taylor via groups.io Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:53 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug I can confirm that these are seen as links when using latest JFW both with Firefox and MSEdge. I therefore don't believe this to be an NVDA issue. On 7/08/2020 11:46 am, Gene wrote: I haven't asked The Times. I thought it was a problem with NVDA since mhy old version recognizes them as headings. I haven't used JAWS to any extent for years but it might be useful for someone using a current JAWS to see if these links are seen as headings. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Gene Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:42 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug When I use a very old version of NVDA, they are reported as headings when I move from heading to heading with report headings turned on. I don't know what the last version was that this occurs. I can also move to the articles when using filter by headings in the elements list of the old version. I don't know how old a version of NVDA needs to be used. I use Windows 7 and I still use 13.x much of the time because it does almost everything I want. I play around with new versions at times. All other articles on the page are reported as headings in the new NVDA. So why aren't these and how often, on other pages, may material be being missed? Evidently, there is something different about these headings but what? Gene -----Original Message----- From: Quentin Christensen Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:27 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug Hi Gene, It looks like those articles aren't marked up as headings. If you go to the Opinion heading, you can then press TAB or K to go to the links for the pieces, but they aren't reported as headings. Looking in the elements list, I can find them in the links but not headings. Pages like the New York Times are quite complex and it's likely something has been missed somewhere along the line. What did the NYT people have to say? Quentin. On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 8:24 AM Gene mailto:gsasner@gmail.com wrote: I'm using the latest beta, I haven't switched to the production version. This appears to be a bug and it may result in information being missed. On The New York Times home page, using Firefox or Brave, I haven't yet tested with Chrome, but Brave is Chrome-based, when you get to the opinion part of the page, the articles in that section aren't seen as headings. All other articles are seen as headings and using a very old NVDA, the articles in the opinion section are seen as headings. This is using Windows 7. I just tested with NVDA 2019.2.21 and the same thing happens so this likely bug has been around for some time. I also just tested with Chrome and the same thing occurs. All articles in the opinion section are skipped and the screen-reader moves directly to the editor's picks heading. It needs to be determined what is causing this problem and that may help determine its seriousness. Gene
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Re: A possible bug
Sam Taylor
I can confirm that these are seen as links when using latest JFW
both with Firefox and MSEdge. I therefore don't believe this to be
an NVDA issue.
On 7/08/2020 11:46 am, Gene wrote:
I haven't asked The Times. I thought it was a problem with NVDA since mhy old version recognizes them as headings. I haven't used JAWS to any extent for years but it might be useful for someone using a current JAWS to see if these links are seen as headings.
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Re: A possible bug
Gene
I haven't asked The Times. I thought it was a problem with NVDA since mhy old version recognizes them as headings. I haven't used JAWS to any extent for years but it might be useful for someone using a current JAWS to see if these links are seen as headings.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Gene Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:42 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug When I use a very old version of NVDA, they are reported as headings when I move from heading to heading with report headings turned on. I don't know what the last version was that this occurs. I can also move to the articles when using filter by headings in the elements list of the old version. I don't know how old a version of NVDA needs to be used. I use Windows 7 and I still use 13.x much of the time because it does almost everything I want. I play around with new versions at times. All other articles on the page are reported as headings in the new NVDA. So why aren't these and how often, on other pages, may material be being missed? Evidently, there is something different about these headings but what? Gene -----Original Message----- From: Quentin Christensen Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:27 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug Hi Gene, It looks like those articles aren't marked up as headings. If you go to the Opinion heading, you can then press TAB or K to go to the links for the pieces, but they aren't reported as headings. Looking in the elements list, I can find them in the links but not headings. Pages like the New York Times are quite complex and it's likely something has been missed somewhere along the line. What did the NYT people have to say? Quentin. On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 8:24 AM Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote: I'm using the latest beta, I haven't switched to the production version. This appears to be a bug and it may result in information being missed. On The New York Times home page, using Firefox or Brave, I haven't yet tested with Chrome, but Brave is Chrome-based, when you get to the opinion part of the page, the articles in that section aren't seen as headings. All other articles are seen as headings and using a very old NVDA, the articles in the opinion section are seen as headings. This is using Windows 7. I just tested with NVDA 2019.2.21 and the same thing happens so this likely bug has been around for some time. I also just tested with Chrome and the same thing occurs. All articles in the opinion section are skipped and the screen-reader moves directly to the editor's picks heading. It needs to be determined what is causing this problem and that may help determine its seriousness. Gene -- Quentin Christensen Training and Support Manager Web: www.nvaccess.org Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/ User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess Twitter: @NVAccess
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Re: A possible bug
Gene
When I use a very old version of NVDA, they are reported as headings when I move from heading to heading with report headings turned on. I don't know what the last version was that this occurs. I can also move to the articles when using filter by headings in the elements list of the old version.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I don't know how old a version of NVDA needs to be used. I use Windows 7 and I still use 13.x much of the time because it does almost everything I want. I play around with new versions at times. All other articles on the page are reported as headings in the new NVDA. So why aren't these and how often, on other pages, may material be being missed? Evidently, there is something different about these headings but what? Gene
-----Original Message-----
From: Quentin Christensen Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2020 8:27 PM To: nvda@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [nvda] A possible bug Hi Gene, It looks like those articles aren't marked up as headings. If you go to the Opinion heading, you can then press TAB or K to go to the links for the pieces, but they aren't reported as headings. Looking in the elements list, I can find them in the links but not headings. Pages like the New York Times are quite complex and it's likely something has been missed somewhere along the line. What did the NYT people have to say? Quentin. On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 8:24 AM Gene <gsasner@gmail.com> wrote: I'm using the latest beta, I haven't switched to the production version. This appears to be a bug and it may result in information being missed. On The New York Times home page, using Firefox or Brave, I haven't yet tested with Chrome, but Brave is Chrome-based, when you get to the opinion part of the page, the articles in that section aren't seen as headings. All other articles are seen as headings and using a very old NVDA, the articles in the opinion section are seen as headings. This is using Windows 7. I just tested with NVDA 2019.2.21 and the same thing happens so this likely bug has been around for some time. I also just tested with Chrome and the same thing occurs. All articles in the opinion section are skipped and the screen-reader moves directly to the editor's picks heading. It needs to be determined what is causing this problem and that may help determine its seriousness. Gene -- Quentin Christensen Training and Support Manager Web: www.nvaccess.org Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/ User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess Twitter: @NVAccess
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