Date   

locked Re: TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA

Carlos Medrano
 

Chris, thanks. I renamed the old profile directory and let the bundled Firefox make a new one. It still isn't speaking the web content however.
If I may ask, when was the last time you reset your bundle's profile? I wonder if it's a new config setting you access through about:config that isn't being flipped on older installs. Would you be willing to rename your TOR bundle directory and install the latest build on the desktop to see if it behaves normally?
Thanks again for the help.
Carlos

On 10/11/2020 1:40 PM, Chris via groups.io wrote:

You could do it like that  or remove the profile that is being currently used

 

 

From: Carlos Medrano
Sent: 11 October 2020 19:22
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA

 

G

 



locked Re: TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA

Chris
 

You could do it like that  or remove the profile that is being currently used

 

 

From: Carlos Medrano
Sent: 11 October 2020 19:22
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA

 

G

 


locked Re: TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA

Carlos Medrano
 

Forgot to mention it in the last e-mail, but ran the COM registration fixing tool with no changes.

On 10/11/2020 1:09 PM, Gene wrote:
Dohn't ever turn off the prevent accessibility from reaching the browser. If you do you will not have access to anything, menus dialogs web pages, of course, absolutely nothing except, maybe the title bar.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Chris via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 1:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA



Have you tried it with the default profile ?



There’s also a option to prevent accessibility feature from reaching the browser under privacy and security

Check if that’s not been checked



Or you might want to run the com registration tool in nvda just to eliminate that  issue







From: Carlos Medrano
Sent: 11 October 2020 18:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA







Hmm, Chris, it may be a local configuration problem for me if you are not having issues. Everything that is not the web area of the page works, meaning that I can access the browser's menus and address bar for example. I also tried downloading the alpha version of TOR to see if it solves the problem.



Brian, are you referring to plain Firefox when doing alt+shift+n? TOR browser and regular Firefox do not appear to do anything when executing that keybinding.



Thanks much,



Carlos







On 10/11/2020 11:48 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:



As an aside, and for the purposes of comparison and diagnosis, if you happen to be a Brave user you can invoke a private window that uses Tor (ALT+SHIFT+N).


locked Re: TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA

Carlos Medrano
 

Gene, yes; a while ago, I changed that setting and had to delete my TOR browser bundle and reinstall it to get screen reader support back.
Chris, what do you mean by default profile? I thought that the profile data is stored in the directory with the bundled Firefox. Is there an additional location I should check? I usually reset profiles by renaming the old profile directory and letting Firefox create a new one.
Thanks,
Carlos

On 10/11/2020 1:09 PM, Gene wrote:
Dohn't ever turn off the prevent accessibility from reaching the browser. If you do you will not have access to anything, menus dialogs web pages, of course, absolutely nothing except, maybe the title bar.

Gene
-----Original Message----- From: Chris via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 1:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA



Have you tried it with the default profile ?



There’s also a option to prevent accessibility feature from reaching the browser under privacy and security

Check if that’s not been checked



Or you might want to run the com registration tool in nvda just to eliminate that  issue







From: Carlos Medrano
Sent: 11 October 2020 18:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA







Hmm, Chris, it may be a local configuration problem for me if you are not having issues. Everything that is not the web area of the page works, meaning that I can access the browser's menus and address bar for example. I also tried downloading the alpha version of TOR to see if it solves the problem.



Brian, are you referring to plain Firefox when doing alt+shift+n? TOR browser and regular Firefox do not appear to do anything when executing that keybinding.



Thanks much,



Carlos







On 10/11/2020 11:48 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:



As an aside, and for the purposes of comparison and diagnosis, if you happen to be a Brave user you can invoke a private window that uses Tor (ALT+SHIFT+N).


locked Re: TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA

Gene
 

Dohn't ever turn off the prevent accessibility from reaching the browser. If you do you will not have access to anything, menus dialogs web pages, of course, absolutely nothing except, maybe the title bar.

Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 1:03 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA



Have you tried it with the default profile ?



There’s also a option to prevent accessibility feature from reaching the browser under privacy and security

Check if that’s not been checked



Or you might want to run the com registration tool in nvda just to eliminate that issue







From: Carlos Medrano
Sent: 11 October 2020 18:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA







Hmm, Chris, it may be a local configuration problem for me if you are not having issues. Everything that is not the web area of the page works, meaning that I can access the browser's menus and address bar for example. I also tried downloading the alpha version of TOR to see if it solves the problem.



Brian, are you referring to plain Firefox when doing alt+shift+n? TOR browser and regular Firefox do not appear to do anything when executing that keybinding.



Thanks much,



Carlos







On 10/11/2020 11:48 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:



As an aside, and for the purposes of comparison and diagnosis, if you happen to be a Brave user you can invoke a private window that uses Tor (ALT+SHIFT+N).

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

~ Kelley Boorn


locked Re: TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA

Chris
 

Have you tried it with the default profile ?

 

There’s also a option to prevent accessibility feature from reaching the browser under privacy and security

Check if that’s not been checked

 

Or you might want to run the com registration tool in nvda just to eliminate that  issue

 

 

From: Carlos Medrano
Sent: 11 October 2020 18:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA

 

Hmm, Chris, it may be a local configuration problem for me if you are not having issues. Everything that is not the web area of the page works, meaning that I can access the browser's menus and address bar for example. I also tried downloading the alpha version of TOR to see if it solves the problem.

Brian, are you referring to plain Firefox when doing alt+shift+n? TOR browser and regular Firefox do not appear to do anything when executing that keybinding.

Thanks much,

Carlos

 

On 10/11/2020 11:48 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

As an aside, and for the purposes of comparison and diagnosis, if you happen to be a Brave user you can invoke a private window that uses Tor (ALT+SHIFT+N).

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 

 

 


locked Re: TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA

Carlos Medrano
 

Hmm, Chris, it may be a local configuration problem for me if you are not having issues. Everything that is not the web area of the page works, meaning that I can access the browser's menus and address bar for example. I also tried downloading the alpha version of TOR to see if it solves the problem.
Brian, are you referring to plain Firefox when doing alt+shift+n? TOR browser and regular Firefox do not appear to do anything when executing that keybinding.
Thanks much,
Carlos

On 10/11/2020 11:48 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
As an aside, and for the purposes of comparison and diagnosis, if you happen to be a Brave user you can invoke a private window that uses Tor (ALT+SHIFT+N).

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 



Re: Creating a portable copy of nvda.

Roger Stewart
 

You can easily make a portable copy of NVDA on a memory stick but you can't make it auto run.  For security reasons, this function will no longer work.  If you first run Narrator and then you can navigate to the memory stick, find nvda.exe and start it there.  Then turn off narrator and there ya go.

Roger












On 10/11/2020 11:50 AM, Emmanuel Junaid wrote:

Hey there! I want to ask if it's possible to make a portable copy of nvda in an USB disk and make it autorun?
If yes, what's the process?



Re: Creating a portable copy of nvda.

 

What do you mean by "and make it autorun"?

If you're looking to have NVDA start up when Windows starts up, it makes very little sense to go with portable rather than installed.

You can, of course, create Startup entries to fire up anything under Windows, but it's really "going around Jake's barn" as the saying goes in the Shenandoah Valley to do this with a program that can handle it all if installed.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Creating a portable copy of nvda.

Emmanuel Junaid
 

Hey there! I want to ask if it's possible to make a portable copy of nvda in an USB disk and make it autorun?
If yes, what's the process?


locked Re: TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA

 

As an aside, and for the purposes of comparison and diagnosis, if you happen to be a Brave user you can invoke a private window that uses Tor (ALT+SHIFT+N).

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


locked Re: TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA

Chris
 

Im using the latest Tor with no problem here

 

Are you getting this in other browsers or menus  as well ? as it may indicate another issue

 

From: Carlos Medrano
Sent: 11 October 2020 17:05
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA

 

H

 


locked TOR Browser Accessibility with NVDA

Carlos Medrano
 

Hello All,


I am new here, so I apologize in advance if I am sending this to the wrong place.


I am using Windows 10 2004 with NVDA 2020.2 and downloaded the latest stable version of the TOR browser at (https://www.torproject.org), which is based on Mozilla Firefox 78.3.0ESR.


When navigating the part of the browser that normally has the web content, NVDA just says "unknown." Has anybody had a similar issue and been able to solve it? If not I will file a bug with the TOR Browser developers to look into it.


Many thanks,


Carlos


Re: web sites detecting a screen reader

Sean Murphy
 

I am not currently aware if any windows browser exposes the API you referenced in your email below. A lot of companies would like to get their hands on these metrics. The accessibility community is quite against this practise. For the simple bases, you are not developing web technology to support all users or in other words you are not using Human Centred design. The biggest fear comes from the old days of only text-only web pages built for screen readers. Technology today has the ability of supporting everyone, if best practises are used.

 

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: Sunday, 11 October 2020 12:51 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Hi,

Ultimately, it is up to operating systems (such as Windows) to reveal this information to web browsers. On Windows, screen readers can inform Windows that they are active through a Windows API function named SystemParametersInfo (part of user32.dll), which is meant to be used by apps to adjust their workings, and I bet web browsers can expose this information to web authoring engines. Because this is a website-specific thing, I think it would be best to ask web authors to adjust their interfaces on the fly or add a box to suppress this (that last bit will be cleared if you delete web cookies).

To expand upon the API discussion: a few weeks ago some NVDA users working on PowerShell said an alert about PSReadline was issued at startup. A conversation with PowerShell team at Microsoft revealed that this is due to screen reader flag detection, which ironically uses the same Windows API function mentioned above (the difference is which flags are passed into modify system parameters globally). Apparently this was in response to reports that PSReadline module (used for cursor movement, editing and such) wasn’t working well with older NVDA releases, and I advised Microsoft to test PSReadline with newer NVDA releases.

As for web accessibility and screen reader detection on the web, an ongoing discussion between web standards stakeholders (web authors, browser vendors, assistive technology vendors, standards bodies, academics, and such) deals with how should software interpret seemingly conflicting ARIA (Accessible Rich Internet Applications) specifications. For example, should screen readers enter application/focus mode automatically when encountering what is essentially a web dialog, or how should screen readers announce form field descriptions and such. Making matters complicated is the speed of web development as you will find yourself meeting new browser releases every six weeks, and that “web standards implementations” on PC’s have pretty much became a battle between Mozilla on one side and Google and friends across the court. At first glance, NVDA may appear to provide the same experience, but trust me: there are internal differences between what Firefox says versus what Chromium family tells you (which, by the way, extends to how NVDA supports accessibility API’s, which merits a separate discussion; I’ll take a stab at giving you a tour of such topics if requested).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

OK I am a strong believer in using Google to find answers before I ask one here.  Giving me the term SR flag did not help much in resolving this issue.  I tried all kinds of searches using SR flag and got nothing.  Maybe you can be a little more helpful in hiding the screen reader from web pages.

On 10/10/2020 6:59 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

That magic term is “sr flag”.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 4:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Don,

          I don't think you can stop the websites, but I could swear that it was recently discussed that you can put screen readers, and I think it was NVDA in particular, into "stealth mode" at startup so that whatever flag it is that the screen reader sets/waves to tell software looking for it that it's present is not set.  But I'll be darned if I can remember the magic search term to find that discussion.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Re: NVDA losing focus

 

Well I wander if nvda latest rc works on the latest water fox 2020.09, I have been having a lot of webpage crash issues which have not happened on 08.

I am quite busy this week but the beta did crash with my amd system so who knows.

08 is fine for me but even so.



On 11/10/2020 4:21 pm, Brian Vogel wrote:
Given that the 2020.3 release candidate 1 NVDA is available, I'd suggest uninstalling your 2020.2 and then installing 2020.3rc1.  Barring any real surprises, the release candidate 1 will be transitioning to actual 2020.3.

It's been very stable on my machine, even during the betas.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Re: NVDA losing focus

 

Given that the 2020.3 release candidate 1 NVDA is available, I'd suggest uninstalling your 2020.2 and then installing 2020.3rc1.  Barring any real surprises, the release candidate 1 will be transitioning to actual 2020.3.

It's been very stable on my machine, even during the betas.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Re: web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Hi,

Ultimately, it is up to operating systems (such as Windows) to reveal this information to web browsers. On Windows, screen readers can inform Windows that they are active through a Windows API function named SystemParametersInfo (part of user32.dll), which is meant to be used by apps to adjust their workings, and I bet web browsers can expose this information to web authoring engines. Because this is a website-specific thing, I think it would be best to ask web authors to adjust their interfaces on the fly or add a box to suppress this (that last bit will be cleared if you delete web cookies).

To expand upon the API discussion: a few weeks ago some NVDA users working on PowerShell said an alert about PSReadline was issued at startup. A conversation with PowerShell team at Microsoft revealed that this is due to screen reader flag detection, which ironically uses the same Windows API function mentioned above (the difference is which flags are passed into modify system parameters globally). Apparently this was in response to reports that PSReadline module (used for cursor movement, editing and such) wasn’t working well with older NVDA releases, and I advised Microsoft to test PSReadline with newer NVDA releases.

As for web accessibility and screen reader detection on the web, an ongoing discussion between web standards stakeholders (web authors, browser vendors, assistive technology vendors, standards bodies, academics, and such) deals with how should software interpret seemingly conflicting ARIA (Accessible Rich Internet Applications) specifications. For example, should screen readers enter application/focus mode automatically when encountering what is essentially a web dialog, or how should screen readers announce form field descriptions and such. Making matters complicated is the speed of web development as you will find yourself meeting new browser releases every six weeks, and that “web standards implementations” on PC’s have pretty much became a battle between Mozilla on one side and Google and friends across the court. At first glance, NVDA may appear to provide the same experience, but trust me: there are internal differences between what Firefox says versus what Chromium family tells you (which, by the way, extends to how NVDA supports accessibility API’s, which merits a separate discussion; I’ll take a stab at giving you a tour of such topics if requested).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:12 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

OK I am a strong believer in using Google to find answers before I ask one here.  Giving me the term SR flag did not help much in resolving this issue.  I tried all kinds of searches using SR flag and got nothing.  Maybe you can be a little more helpful in hiding the screen reader from web pages.

On 10/10/2020 6:59 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

That magic term is “sr flag”.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 4:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Don,

          I don't think you can stop the websites, but I could swear that it was recently discussed that you can put screen readers, and I think it was NVDA in particular, into "stealth mode" at startup so that whatever flag it is that the screen reader sets/waves to tell software looking for it that it's present is not set.  But I'll be darned if I can remember the magic search term to find that discussion.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Re: web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Don,

        Using the actual archive search is easier in this case than using a Google search, though when I use Google with the archive's site operator:

site:nvda.groups.io/g/nvda

along with "sr flag" I do get one result.

Here's the actual Groups.io archive search for same, which gives you the three topics, including this one, with "sr flag" or "sr-flag" in them:  https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda/search?q=sr+flag 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Re: web sites detecting a screen reader

Don H
 

OK I am a strong believer in using Google to find answers before I ask one here.  Giving me the term SR flag did not help much in resolving this issue.  I tried all kinds of searches using SR flag and got nothing.  Maybe you can be a little more helpful in hiding the screen reader from web pages.

On 10/10/2020 6:59 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

That magic term is “sr flag”.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 4:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Don,

          I don't think you can stop the websites, but I could swear that it was recently discussed that you can put screen readers, and I think it was NVDA in particular, into "stealth mode" at startup so that whatever flag it is that the screen reader sets/waves to tell software looking for it that it's present is not set.  But I'll be darned if I can remember the magic search term to find that discussion.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 


Re: web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Hi,

That magic term is “sr flag”.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 4:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] web sites detecting a screen reader

 

Don,

          I don't think you can stop the websites, but I could swear that it was recently discussed that you can put screen readers, and I think it was NVDA in particular, into "stealth mode" at startup so that whatever flag it is that the screen reader sets/waves to tell software looking for it that it's present is not set.  But I'll be darned if I can remember the magic search term to find that discussion.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

It’s hard waking up and realizing it’s not always black and white.

     ~ Kelley Boorn

 

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